last day (15 days later) » 

15:04
Giving more warnings to users would actually go against the legal policy. Now, for why.
I'll link the other room here...
I only say that assuming you are a trusted agent of Stack Exchange, and are able to legally communicate on their behalf.
None of us are, but from a legal standpoint (as moderators), let us assume we are.
By introducing warnings near every suspicious link, we are implying that we independently verify all download links on the website, even though it is not express implied in the terms of service.
Both implied and express terms DO hold up in a United States court of law, regardless of whether or not explicitly stated in the legally binding contract between the end-user and SE.
By moderating such links, you are acting as a legal communicator on Stack Exchange's behalf (by literally moderating and running the website).
I just finished writing a law exam, and in the textbook we read, there were many cases like this, where one party in a contract began to "offer" additional help to the other party.
It got to a point where such aid was even expected, as it occured so often.
@Breakthrough Not really, I am reflecting the comments and flags.
Furthermore, I did not sign my name under a Moderator agreement, which diamond moderators need to sign.
And even that agreement says that moderators do not represent Stack Exchange...
And I'm gonna say this now: You gotta chill the **** out man. You've trolled everyone else's answer for no good reason. I'm not repressing your opinion, but don't try and claim that I'm pushing my opinion on others - that's clearly what you're doing, and NOT me.
You had that discussion under MY answer, not yours.
@Breakthrough There's no point in making a statement if you can't defend it.
15:08
Again, I'm trying to support STACK EXCHANGE, not YOU.
I don't care what legal rights you have, freedom of speech protects you from everything.
> giving more warnings to users would actually go against the legal policy
IT WOULD TECHNICALLY
Unless you don't feel like acting as an official "voice of Super User".
Yeah, but you can't state why.
In which case, do whatever the hell you'd like.
You know that the whole comment thread is about that sentence, right?
15:09
I just did at the beginning of this conversation. You don't want to shift the burden of proof, it's a bad idea from a legal standpoint.
And none of your replies proofs it.
You do realize that you can "go against" something without "violating" it, right?
I meant that you're undermining the legal policy when I said that.
Furthermore, you are from Europe, right?
@Breakthrough What legal policy? I see none in place that I am undermining.
Yes, I am from Europe.
European courts have traditionally taken a much more "civil" approach to these types of litigation matters, placing more emphasis on "protecting the user". North American courts are more likely to take things "at face value".
The legal policy already exempts Stack Exchange from any liability arising from posted files.
It's not your job, nor are you required, to validate all download links on the website.
By doing so, you're creating that expectation I mentioned above.
Do what you want, but it's not a good idea.
@Breakthrough But I am still free to do so.
15:12
Absolutely.
@Breakthrough I'm not as I'm just reflecting comments / flags...
There's nothing that makes me represent Stack Exchange, unless I state that I am (which would be violating, because I am not).
Then I ask of you, why do you feel the need to place these warnings then?
(I'm not trying to troll, but it's really unnecessary - do we really want to "idiot proof" Stack Exchange?)
I see no way in which going out of your way to flag viruses for other people can be seen as a good idea. Leave that to the security professionals who make anti-virus software, or those researchers who do so.
And at that, how do you determine what is "safe" or not?
To protect relatives, to know that it's being inspected, to not have an overly long comment thread, to help the user reading the question, to ask the user that posted the executable what it does and why "machine code that's packed 5 times" is not malware, ...
Ever hear of Cain and Abel?
@Breakthrough Connfirm that it does behavior that solves the OP's problem, as opposed to common malicious behavior.
No.
15:16
Password recovery toolkit for MS Windows. Flagged as a virus by pretty much every program out there.
Totally legitimate piece of software, very useful.
Is it safe?
@Breakthrough I'm not using any virus scanner (not in daily usage, not to confirm the behavior of the software).
Do you see where the problems can easily arise?
@Breakthrough No problems can arise if you are inspecting its behavior and not inspecting its classification.
Okay, so that assumes a user trusts you.
Assume I'm your average computer user.
I go on this website.
And I see a link, with "hey this is picked up as a virus, but it's totally legit, don't worry". Is the average user going to believe you?
Users blame software for malware, warning placed (you are free to suggest better wording, I made up some text for the meta) that it is inspected and moderator asked to remove comments, software is verified and outcome is placed in the comments after which warning is removed.
@Breakthrough That would require measurements and statistics to answer. :)
15:20
Is it worth consuming all of that man power?
Why are we supposed to "idiot proof" a website?
@Breakthrough Do you mean a single click and looking through a trace? Or something I like to do? Not really...
@Breakthrough Where does it say so?
With all due respect, @TomWijsman, who are you to tell me (the user) what is "safe" or not?
That's what my point is. You're not, no more than I am if I told you what is "safe" or not.
And THAT viewpoint is supported by the SE legal policy.
@Breakthrough If it is proven to be safe, I don't see a problem?
What is the definition of "safe" then?
That's a very slippery slope to go down.
That's the power of inspection, that's the power of sharing a trace (or telling how it is obtained).
6 mins ago, by Tom Wijsman
@Breakthrough Connfirm that it does behavior that solves the OP's problem, as opposed to common malicious behavior.
15:22
So WE are defining "safe", and not the user?
That makes no logical sense to me.
YOU might find it safe.
The majority of SU might find it safe.
Does the user?
THAT is all that matters in the end.
@Breakthrough Can you tell me how "a botnet is safe" or "notepad is unsafe"? :/
Some notepad utilities can have buffer overflows.
Some botnets have legitimate purposes (like REMOTE CONTROL OF MACHINES).
Unless we should exempt software that can be exploited as magically being "safe".
Yeah, but why would a botnet executable be provided if the user asked for an AutoHotkey application that automates something without internet activity whatsoever?
It's the mismatch in behavior that allows to draw a proven conclusion whether it does what is expected.
Please re-read the last paragraph in my answer.
>> This is the internet. Post what you want, man (or woman!). Any blatant attempts at spreading malicious software (or other files thereof) will certainly be met with administrative action. Report any malicious files if you come across them.
"safe", "malicious", "meets the requirements"; name it what you want, it's properly defined.
15:27
Safe != malicious != meet requirements.
12 mins ago, by Breakthrough
And at that, how do you determine what is "safe" or not?
Then I guess you have used the wrong word here.
Nope, that was my point.
It's easy to determine if a program (black box) meets requirements.
Give it inputs, see if you get expected outputs.
Determining if it is SAFE or not is a completely different story.
AFAIK, since Super User's inception, posting software that didn't answer the question is against the rules in the first place.
@Breakthrough I'm doing the former, I'm not determining if it is safe, that's what you said.
Malicious is a sub-set of safe.
If software is malicious, it is obviously unsafe.
If that black box that's supposed to automate some stuff rather talk with various IPs, then you know something is up.
Exactly.
15:30
Back to square 1 then: Who are you to determine if something is malicious?
Back to square 1 then:
8 mins ago, by Tom Wijsman
That's the power of inspection, that's the power of sharing a trace (or telling how it is obtained).
What if those "various IPs" were for advertisement-driven software?
@Breakthrough What if I see no advertisements being downloaded nor see any advertisements on my screen?
Are you really going to take the time to verify every download link you see, then determine if it meets the OP's specifications, and THEN determine if it's malicious or not?
11 mins ago, by Tom Wijsman
@Breakthrough Do you mean a single click and looking through a trace? Or something I like to do? Not really...
15:32
Why do you feel the need to do so? Wouldn't it be a much better use of your own time to moderate instead? Wouldn't it be a much better policy to LET THE USER DECIDE?
@Breakthrough What restricts me from being helpful?
Again. I'm not suppressing YOUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
NOTHING.
STOP ACTING LIKE I'M REPRESSING WHAT YOU CAN OR CANNOT DO.
25 mins ago, by Breakthrough
Again, I'm trying to support STACK EXCHANGE, not YOU.
I'm providing guidance for the moderators of this community.
I'm supporting the community, NOT YOU.
Then how were your last sentences supporting Stack Exchange?
15:33
And I'm doing so in a way aligned with the LEGAL POLICIES of the website.
You're talking about MY NEED / TIME in the last messages.
Okay, I'm not talking about you anymore then.
I'm talking about "the people of SU".
The people of SU are free to do what they want, as long as it is aligned with the legal policies of the website.
Yes...
I never implied otherwise :S
But you did address my approach in your answer, which is why I made a small comment to reflect upon that and then you made a statement which you didn't defend so far.
Which is why this whole thing is about ME wondering why that sentence talking about MY ACTION is stated in the legal terms.
15:37
Dude, I made advice based on what I saw in the legal policies.
I never said anything about your actions.
Do what you want.
I'm done with this conversation.
So your sentence has no proof, that's what I wanted to know, thank you.
Half this conversation was about my actions, I hope you see how you are focusing on me and not on Stack Exchange.
Again: first post in this conversation. If you were communicating as a Stack exchange official, you would be undermining the legal policies.
Can YOU disprove that?
I've already been done from comment five, where I saw you didn't elaborate.
@Breakthrough But I'm not communicating as a Stack Exchange official, that's the whole point. Even moderators aren't doing so, unless they are valued associates...
Is it "wrong" to want to follow the SE legal policy?
Is it "wrong" to follow up to the legal standards set by the creators of the website?
No.
Can you, as an end-user of these services, go against them under freedom of speech? Absolutely.
I do follow the legal policies, so I see no problem.
15:40
Then stop trying to guide the community away from them.
If you however state that I am undermining it, you need to defend that.
By posting in Meta, you are acting, not as an official of SE, but a moderator - a "shaper" of the future.
And I feel the need to ensure that the future stays aligned with the SE legal policies.
@Breakthrough I'm not going against them, I'm merely reflecting comments and getting the download checked.
@Breakthrough It's not a guide away, it's merely a warning.
You're positing what can be seen as an "official recommendation" to other moderators.
@Breakthrough Yes, but I do not represent Stack Exchange.
When the legal terms mention "Stack Exchange" or "Stack Exchange Network" or "Service" or anything along that lines, it excludes me...
15:42
Then it's also fair to say your opinion should have no weight in any manners considering the development of such a website.
I'd argue that this is NOT the case, as you do have a valid (and valued) opinion.
As such, you are (albeit indirectly) acting as one of many voices of Stack Exchange.
@Breakthrough That's what is for, sharing our viewpoints. Not making false statements towards users about undermining legal terms when they do not (or you do not proof).
@Breakthrough Yet, it does not make me a representative. Merely an user of the service.
Then continue to represent what you want, as I will.
Besides privileges (and some subjective stuff like "experience" and what not) there's really not much difference between me and someone who joins the site this very moment.
I make no effort to repress your speech. But I do wish to conduct myself in a manner appropriate with the community guidelines and legal policies.
6 mins ago, by Tom Wijsman
So your sentence has no proof, that's what I wanted to know, thank you.
Anything else to say?
15:45
Yeah - you're a troll trying to undermine the Stack Exchange legal policies. As a moderator, wouldn't it be a better idea to conduct yourself in a way consistent with said policies, instead of just claiming "freedom of speech" which allows you, legally, to undermine them?
@Breakthrough Where does it say that I am undermining the policies?
try. verb: to attempt to do or accomplish
I never said you did.
Let me refute with a question of my own.
I didn't say either.
@Breakthrough That's not what I am asking you...
Do you feel that we should, as members of the community, promote guidelines and policies consistent with the Stack Exchange legal framework?
THAT is what I'm asking YOU.
And THAT is what my whole point has been this whole time.
I may have used hard-to-understand wording in some cases.
My point may have been misinterpreted sometimes.
@Breakthrough Yes, I feel so, but it does not change anything about my question to you.
> If you are not comfortable with the idea of your contributions being collaboratively edited by other trusted users, this may not be the site for you.
15:49
...As it clearly still is.
> Bring your sense of humor.
Other users is plural; you're one.
> Best of all — edit and improve the existing questions and answers!
I don't see how that's relevant here.
I see a warning that reflects the comments as an improvement.
15:50
Hey Tom, I have an idea.
Stop talking to me, because you clearly can't see my point.
And let the community upvote the best answer.
13 mins ago, by Tom Wijsman
So your sentence has no proof, that's what I wanted to know, thank you.
;)
"Do you feel that we should, as members of the community, promote guidelines and policies consistent with the Stack Exchange legal framework?"

Yes, I feel so [...]
;)
@Breakthrough Good idea, you were just enumerating what I should(n't) do. And honestly, I don't care as I'd rather choose to follow the guidelines and policies of SE...

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