The Water Cooler

Jane S

4:20 AM

@RichardU The fact that The Workplace lost all of its active mods over this certainly had an impact. I haven't seen if any other communities had that happen. I don't judge any mod for either going or staying. My issue wasn't about the intent of the new CoC, I already use anyone's preferred name, gender and pronouns, be they new or existing terms. My problem with this whole thing was the CoC's inflexibility and how Monica was treated. Monica was treated incredibly badly. Wrong, just wrong.

6

I don't believe that our resigning will change anything, but I just couldn't stand by and condone what was done and how it was done.

Monoandale

8:05 AM

The fact that TWP all its active mods over this confirms you were a clique, sorry.

Snow

9:03 AM

No it doesn't. It confirms that we're deeply unhappy with the way that Stack Exchange, as a company, has handled this situation. A huge amount of moderators on other SE sites are also similarly unhappy with the way that Stack Exchange handled this situation.

4

Philip Kendall

9:19 AM

@bebs On a now deleted question you said "what [Stack Exchange] controversy?" If you happen to see this, read up or more generally see meta.stackexchange.com/questions/333965/…

Bebs

@PhilipKendall, what is the controversy about Code of Conduct question?

@PhilipKendall Oh, thanks

Philip Kendall

@Bebs Full disclosure: I am a mod on a different SE site so am possibly more aware of what's been going on than some others. That also means there's stuff I can't say because it's private to the moderators.

Let's just say it's been talked about a lot from every side and there are no easy answers. That now deleted question wasn't an honest attempt to solve a problem the poster had, but just an attempt to fan the flames.

Bebs

@PhilipKendall I have noticed lately several resignations, but I don't see hos is it related to the quickly deleted question.

JoeTaxpayer

@PhilipKendall - same for me, I mod at Money.SE

Bebs

ok, so it might be some business I shouldn't really care then :)

I just don't like when I see SE users being bullied, but it might be something else going on

Philip Kendall

9:25 AM

@Bebs The "details" being provided in the question were exactly those which have happened at SE over the past week.

@Bebs There's a lot going on. There has been discontent with the relationship between SE the company and SE the community, and in particular SE the moderators for a while. The weekend was a flashpoint and the fire is burning hot right now.

Draken

11:15 AM

@Monoandale That's a rather broad statement, you might want to back that up with evidence....

Mister Positive

@PhilipKendall Well said.

@Monoandale It looks as though your back with your axe to grind again....

Philip Kendall

11:30 AM

@MisterPositive Just a shame it has to be said. I'm sad about the relationship between SE and the community, I'm sad about what happened this weekend and I'm sad about all the other stuff that led up to it.

(And that's probably all I should say on a public chat)

Mister Positive

@PhilipKendall I hold out a glimmer of hope. I have sent an email to the CM ( Tim ). We will see if falls upon deaf ears or not. I know others have too. Thanks for helping keep the mess from getting, well, worse.

Snow

@PhilipKendall And I'm sad that I'm getting daily repcaps on main meta. I really didn't want that from writing the answer that I did for the reason it had to be written.

Mister Positive

@Snow Link?

rath

@Draken Don't mind our Monoandale, he likes to get the rise out of people

Snow

962

Q: Firing mods and forced relicensing: is Stack Exchange still interested in cooperating with the community?

The last weeks and days have seen some erratic behaviour by Stack Exchange Inc., such as likely illegal changes to the content license and the firing of an upstanding community moderator with no explanation except copy-pasted responses (leaving many to believe it was for no good reason). It wou...

Mister Positive

11:36 AM

@Snow Oh, that one. that makes me sad too

@Snow I am tempted to post the letter I sent to the CM's (Tim) in Meta.

2

Snow

So many people are creating new meta questions about this that it's just not being helpful any more.

Bebs

Is this related with the "Code of Conduct"? People have been referring to that...

Philip Kendall

11:52 AM

@Bebs Again, yes but as the flashpoint. It's certainly not the whole issue.

Mister Positive

Just for the record, I have no problems with a policy of "when using pronouns, use the preferred ones". Sara seemed to be calling for something much stronger, which would be confusing and super-hard to assess. But I never got an answer on that. – Monica Cellio

2

Knowingly using wrong pronouns is abusive. I don't disagree with that at all! – Monica Cellio 15 hours ago

3

And anyone who disagrees with Knowingly using wrong pronouns is abusive has no business here.

The more I read, the more I don't understand why this simply cannot be reversed, an update to the CoC be made, and life moves forward as it should

AND my last one before I head out on a long weekend with out my laptop

We were told: you must use people's pronouns. I asked: when using pronouns, right? E.g. if I'm talking about Adamant or the OP or this answer (link), I'm not using any pronouns and that's how many of us communicate now. I also talked (in a post I can no longer refer to, so from memory) about other ways I, as a professional writer, routinely avoid singular gender.

2

I do this for clarity and style, because writing well is a core part of my identity and sometimes singular "they" is harder to understand. To avoid singling out people who use "they", I said it's no problem to avoid he/she too. – Monica Cellio 15 hours ago

2

All of this is public.

Mister Positive

12:21 PM

@Monoandale Are you kidding me?

@Monoandale Why do you insist on coming here and dog piling? You have assumed there was a victory somewhere when the reality is EVERYONE lost.

4

Snow

@MisterPositive Now you're not a moderator, you can ignore people. There's a blessing right there.

Mister Positive

@Snow They also assume the battle is over too....

@Snow yep, leaving soon, so I will be offline shortly until Monday. Hopeful some rational good news is provided by then.

Snow

Doesn't matter. A troll exists to get a response. If there's no response....

A J

Hey everyone!

Snow

Yo!

Mister Positive

12:36 PM

@Snow :-P

A J

@Snow So, you get to stay as RO?

Snow

Shhhhh.....

A J

There you go. :P

Snow

(removed)

Richard U

@MisterPositive @Monoandale isn't dogpiling, he's expressing an opinion There's a difference.

Philip Kendall

1:03 PM

@RichardU I'd say it is possible to both express an opinion and be dogpiling at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive.

2

iLuvLogix

@motosubatsu looks like germania is trolling again.. workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/145891/…

looking at the history of posts of that 'contributer' none of it makes sense and seems to be completely made up bs workplace.stackexchange.com/users/106240/germania

motosubatsu

@iLuvLogix not sure if it's traditional trolling or if germania just don't understand how to write questions and instead just wants to have a whinge. Like you say though the end result is that it just doesn't make any sense.

Mister Positive

Signing off until next week, hopefully the voice will speak by then. Take it easy all.

motosubatsu

@MisterPositive take it easy bud.. go forth and enjoy the weekend!

iLuvLogix

@MisterPositive have a pleasant & relaxed weekend

@motosubatsu sentences like: "As a result of not knowing SQL and the pressence of intellectual property laws which prevents good data base learning resources online, I can't teach myself SQL." & " I don't mind refunding them my salary. I haven't spend the money on my earnings." in his recent posts are some indications..

motosubatsu

1:22 PM

@iLuvLogix yes that caught my eye - certainly stretches credibility of the post being "genuine"

iLuvLogix

@motosubatsu Isn't there a clause in the COC that enables some sort of authority over ungenuine contributors?

Snow

The tour states that "Focus on questions about an actual problem you have faced. Include details about what you have tried and exactly what you are trying to do" But no one gives a crap about that and people make up questions anyway.

Richard U

@PhilipKendall in order for their to be a dogpile, there needs to be a pile. @Monoandale is just one person.

iLuvLogix

@Snow Reading consecutively through all of the user's posts makes it very clear that this guy is a troll indeed..

motosubatsu

@iLuvLogix I don't think it's explicitly forbidden in the CoC although as @Snow points out there is a direction to be genuine in the tour.

Richard U

1:30 PM

@iLuvLogix yeah, too bad everyone rage quit, eh?

Bebs

@MisterPositive I'm not aware of this whole "pronouns" issue, I'm not even sure I understand what this is all about

is it something American?

iLuvLogix

@motosubatsu Unfortunately such posts take away attention of real workplace-issues/questions

@RichardU ?

Richard U

@Bebs I don't think us USAers can take credit for this one.... at least I hope not

Snow

@RichardU You're not on my ignore list, but I'm choosing not to respond because I value the lifetime of my keyboard. I think it's only rated for a million keystrokes.

iLuvLogix

@RichardU Don't pull snow, monica and jane into that now

Richard U

1:32 PM

@snow, I love you too

it would be nice to see some honesty for once, though.

Bebs

when foreigners translate sentences we can misuse pronouns, for example in France we can have feminine or masculine for words. When we translate, it can happen beginners misuse. There is no "it" in French
Then some SE users think SE is American only, can be very harsh against foreigners. I've been reprimanded sometimes for asking question that answer were "obvious" for Americans

anyway you guys should chill a little :-) pronouns mistakes are not that a big deal

Richard U

@Bebs The whole pronoun thing is that it gas become a thing where people are chosing which pronouns that they wish to be addressed as. I don't understand it, but I'm old, so I probably won't. BUT, the COC has made a change where if you use a pronoun that someone doesn't want you to use, it's grounds for action. Also, NOT using pronouns, by just referring someone by their name, is ALSO grounds for action

@Bebs I agree with you, BTW.

Bebs

@RichardU I didn't know that. Was there an official announcement from SE?

Richard U

@Bebs Well, that is what much of this whole monica mess was about.

Gregory Currie

No it wasn't

motosubatsu

1:42 PM

@iLuvLogix agreed

Gregory Currie

It was about a mod asking a few questions about a policy, and getting fired as a result

Richard U

@GregoryCurrie and what policy was that? Nothing about the pronouns?

Gregory Currie

It actually doesn't matter what the policy was about

Could have been about the colour of the sidebar

Bebs

@GregoryCurrie i understand

Richard U

@GregoryCurrie but it wasn't, now was it

Still, unfair treatment is unfair treatment

that point, I will cede

Gregory Currie

1:45 PM

I don't believe 15 mods have quit over pronouns, no

Richard U

@GregoryCurrie nor did I say that

Gregory Currie

The thing is, if we categorise this "whole mess" as being about pronouns, I think that's misleading

This whole mess is about the proper treatment of users

Richard U

@GregoryCurrie no, when it was just users getting this treatment, nobody cared

Gregory Currie

Well, users can't get demoted from a mod position

Richard U

Or when a previous mod got the boot, nobody cared

Gregory Currie

1:47 PM

I honestly don't know enough about that situation

(Which may prove your point)

Richard U

@GregoryCurrie he's willing to discuss it with anyone who wishes to know, he just can't do it in here

Gregory Currie

Are you sure that's the right pronoun?

;)

I don't know who "he" is

Richard U

@GregoryCurrie his name is VERBOTEN, but every time I bring it up, people throw shade, and since he can't defend himself in here, it's not fair

Gregory Currie

Which is ironic

Doesn't verboten mean forbidden?

Richard U

Still, there is quite a bit of ill will that needs to be addressed.

As well as a considerable amount of cliquishness

@Monoandale was making a good point about that one. While I wouldn't phrase it in such aggressive terms, he does have a point.

There's a great deal of in-group and out-group dynamics here, as evidenced by snow's swipe at me

I did like his earlier comparison of me to a supervillain though. That gave me a chuckle

@GregoryCurrie yes VERBOTEN means forbidden.

iLuvLogix

2:03 PM

@RichardU I'm not taking sides here, but want to draw your attention to this: You'r stating in your profile's favourite quotes: 'Before arguing with an idiot, first make sure he's not doing the same thing.' and then swipe back at snow with 'it would be nice to see some honesty for once, though.' - That seems to undermine your own principles..

@RichardU And while I try to bring attention to a certain unsincere contributor, you reply to me with 'yeah, too bad everyone rage quit, eh?'. That's not very mature IMHO..

Richard U

@iLuvLogix Are you aware of the fact that you just called snow an idiot?

iLuvLogix

@RichardU You can perceive it the way you want to - if that's your choice, so it is..

Gregory Currie

Isn't the first quote self-deprecation?

Richard U

@GregoryCurrie It's a caution against arguing from a point of ignorance.

@iLuvLogix You'll also note the irony of your claim to not take sides, then taking sides

iLuvLogix

@RichardU And the irony of you chatting here while stating 'No longer answering questions or participating in this stack' - Well, I guess irony is the salt of the soup we call life ;)

Gregory Currie

2:11 PM

Can't you see this stack is tearing us apart!

iLuvLogix

I think we arguing here in a quite gentle tone..

no hard feelings..

IDrinkandIKnowThings

2:59 PM

I take a few weeks off and the site went to hell. WTF happened with monica

Snow

@IDrinkandIKnowThings You might want to go take a look at Main Meta.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

I am i see that she was removed but no explanation of why or what led up to it

Did she challenge the Powers that be?

Snow

224

Q: Stack Overflow Inc., sinat chinam, and the goat for Azazel

On Friday, half an hour before Shabbat and two days before Rosh Hashana, Stack Overflow Inc. suddenly revoked my moderator status on all sites where I had it. I found this out while handling flags, when I suddenly got notifications for Marshal and Deputy badges (which moderators are ineligible t...

discussion featured moderators

IDrinkandIKnowThings

Did she lose all her diamonds or just TWP

Snow

All diamonds.

Richard U

3:05 PM

@iLuvLogix I didn't update my profile from a few months ago. How petty do you want to be?

@Snow I put my email in my profile if you want to reach out, clear the air, so to speak.

Kaz

in The 2nd Monitor, 51 mins ago, by Kaz

Most up-to-date details, so far as I'm aware.

Just for the record, I have no problems with a policy of "when using pronouns, use the preferred ones". Sara seemed to be calling for something much stronger, which would be confusing and super-hard to assess. But I never got an answer on that. — Monica Cellio yesterday

Knowingly using wrong pronouns is abusive. I don't disagree with that at all! — Monica Cellio 19 hours ago

IDrinkandIKnowThings

Its freaking crazy

Kaz

in The 2nd Monitor, 58 mins ago, by Kaz

67

Q: SE has removed a moderator

As many of you may have noticed, Monica Cellio is no longer a moderator on Writing.SE, or on any of the several stacks where she has served for years. This was due to a sudden decision by Stack Exchange staff and was not Monica’s choice (or ours). She remains a SE user with no change in reputat...

discussion featured moderators

On a different note, I don't know when you guys implemented it, but I love this close reason:

IDrinkandIKnowThings

TY Kaz for the links

motosubatsu

@Kaz it's not an "official" close reason template - when you VTC and select "other" you can basically explain why you think it should be closed and that becomes the "reason"

IDrinkandIKnowThings

3:17 PM

@Kaz It violates Be Nice... We need a mod to get on that

motosubatsu

@IDrinkandIKnowThings we don't have any

IDrinkandIKnowThings

I know

Kaz

@motosubatsu Ah, ok.

motosubatsu

wasn't sure if you'd got that far in your catch up on recent events :)

IDrinkandIKnowThings

I got all that from our meta

I didnt see the part from the links above from mi yoda and writing

Snow

3:20 PM

There's a ton more on Main Meta. You may need coffee and popcorn.

motosubatsu

@Snow and a comfy chair

Snow

@RichardU No need. This was just humour on my part and I didn't intend for this to be taken as shutting you down. I was just using humour to side step a long "I say this, you say that, I say this, you say that" type discussion that sometimes happens.

motosubatsu

@IDrinkandIKnowThings speaking of writing as of 35mins ago that stack no longer has any active mods either

IDrinkandIKnowThings

OMG the drama

I just saw that

Richard U

SE's actions have been incredibly unfair, and their swipes at Moncia are beyond the pale.

Regardless of what personal feelings, or past experiences I may have had with her, she did not deserve this, and their treatment and characterization of her are disugsting

@Snow One thing I hate about the internet is it is impossible to determine tone

IDrinkandIKnowThings

3:26 PM

The powers that be do not like being questioned.

Snow

Yeah, sorry about that. I'm kind of too old to put smilies on things. I still see them as being somewhat condescending.

MikeQ

Looks like the trending meta posts are being deleted

IDrinkandIKnowThings

@MikeQ Best way to silence criticism is to control the message by deleting anything you disagree with.

MikeQ

It seems that the relevant questions on individual site metas are still up. For now.

Richard U

@IDrinkandIKnowThings yeah, but FB and twitter are lighting up like Christmas trees

@MikeQ This is not going to end well

IDrinkandIKnowThings

3:33 PM

@RichardU I think that depends alot on if the site can self govern well enough to avoid being shuttered before they get some new mods.

I see about a 60-40 chance the site ends up shuttered as the comments run amok

With no mods we have comment anarchy

Snow

CMs are looking after the site for now. There's no sign of new elections as yet.

IDrinkandIKnowThings

@Snow CM's will grow very bored with dealing with comment flags and just ignore it quickly enough

Snow

Or they'll just convert streams to chatrooms.

Which I see they're not bothering to do. sigh

Kaz

3

Q: An Update to our Community and an Apology

Friends, Last week we made an important decision for our community. We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change the behavior. We recognize it has caused concern in the community as a whole. We mad...

discussion moderators

IDrinkandIKnowThings

3:52 PM

Seems like the powers that be forgot about their existing policy

132

A: Handling Calls to Remove a Moderator

Moderator Action Review Process After much discussion, debate, reflection, consultation, frustration, revelation, constipation and inspiration, we've settled on the following process for allowing a team of moderators to remove one of their own. It is, by necessity, somewhat formal: this process...

Draken

@IDrinkandIKnowThings As others have said, "As I understand it, that one is for handling calls from fellow mods (or the community?) to remove a moderator. It's never been followed when SE/SO Inc takes the decision by themselves to remove a moderator"

IDrinkandIKnowThings

@Draken It seems there was calls as they cited numerous past CoC Violations

Which I find unlikely but I only interacted with her here. She was never less than professional in her interactions here.

motosubatsu

@Kaz so... a longer version of the same BS non-response given earlier in the week?

Draken

Indeed, never had an issue with Monica. But at the moment it's a they said and the other is keeping quiet....

motosubatsu

color me surprised

Kaz

4:00 PM

"repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct": citation needed. "CM’s repeated requests to change": citation needed. — Monica Cellio 5 mins ago

If any of you feel like voting:

9

A: An Update to our Community and an Apology

"repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct": citation needed. "CM’s repeated requests to change": citation needed. – Monica Cellio

IDrinkandIKnowThings

Someone at SE(Shog9) needs to step in and stop the bleeding. That post is already -45

Snow

10% toward the lowest voted question ever within 5 minutes of posting.

Kaz

-380 is the number to beat ^^

Draken

4:16 PM

@Kaz What was that question that scored that low?

Kaz

-380

Q: We're testing advertisements across the network

For several years we've had advertising solely on technology-related sites. But many of our sites aren't about technology at all, so we haven't sold ads for them. Traditionally, that hasn't been a hardship since Stack Exchange sites have required only a small investment from the company to set up...

discussion advertising announcements

Draken

Murky buckets :)

Kaz

Lol

I don't understand this post, as we say it is only throwing more and more sticks to the fire. Keep it like this and soon you'll get a Stick Overflow. — Charlie 8 mins ago

Richard U

4:58 PM

@kaz, just when you think they hit rock-bottom, they have begun to dig.....

3

DarkCygnus

@Kaz what a lame apology that was

Richard U

@DarkCygnus its a non-apology apology

[lnk](code:e8707ad19805e9954c832a886384cf24b64eb92f0dba499dee35af68029220a4e37d1107a5c4d323c04fc1db781068ac)

dang, can't get the links working

Magisch

5:43 PM

in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 11 mins ago, by Magisch

@AndrasDeak This is what I'd call a non-apology. I've always been taught and found it is best to refrain from posting those. It makes others assume bad faith of you, for one. And it does nothing to mend the harm that is intended to be mended by a real apology

that + my answer forms my take on the update

Kaz

I might get suspended in a minute, if you don't see me for a while, that'll be why.

Kaz

5:58 PM

Responding here as it is the top post. We aren't going to re-litigate the past. We can't share more details as they involve real people, both moderators and people that work here. What we can say now is that we will do better in the future. We'll be clarifying the CoC and putting out processes for how to remove moderators as well as one to appeal a removal ASAP. — Sara Chipps ♦ 5 mins ago

Richard U

@Magisch Yeah, and wutg abd edge, no less. It's like an abusive spouse who's been arrested trying to 4xplain how the victim made him do it

Kaz

8:50 PM

It's official. Most downvoted post ever. In 5 hours flat.

Richard U

10:51 PM

gnat

11:03 PM

99

Q: "Dear Stack Exchange, I am very disappointed in you" - How to construct a strong opening line in a letter?

In light of recent events I intended to write a simple letter of complaint to StackExchange. The obvious thing to do would be to write an opening with the fact such as It came to my knowledge that a long-standing member and moderator of the Writing.SE community, among others, has been dismiss...

non-fiction letter

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