The Water Cooler

DarkCygnus

03:04

So, I ended up posting my nomination for the Mod positions despite everything :)

Guess that life goes on, and one should also move on despite what may happen to us. Thanks guys for your support

and thanks @MonicaCellio for encouraging me not to desist :)

see ya later

DarkCygnus

04:29

Nice edits Mr @MaskedMan workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/112404/…

Snow

06:05

@DarkCygnus Good luck with the nomination!

Nofel

hello all

Snow

Good morning Nofel. Are you still in Pakistan?

Nofel

yea

almost one week to go

I heard uk is sunny after I am gone

Snow

06:24

Yes, it's very sunny here. Very nice weather. I hope you don't bring any bad weather when you come back - I am due to go on holiday in two weeks.

Nofel

haha

I mentioned that to my mrs that I will go and it will be sunny

now she ask me to stay there

lol

I had letter from my office yesterday of confirmation

in which they send me 5 pages transcript

they wrote everything like a script

what I, he and she said

Snow

So what is happening with you now? I have missed the past few days.

Nofel

well I had been applying but u know companies want me to be there

Snow

Have you had any interest from some good companies?

Nofel

yea I had one causal chat wth one

lets see how they roll

I seen ppl raised a lot of bar on JS in front end

I have always put myself in CSS and layout stuff

Snow

06:31

It's good that you have some leads. I hope you get a better experience the next time.

Nofel

it is hard to get me on a novice level on JS, all together I see ray of hope fading and while I wanna give shot at my mother business (as she is turning old) I am confused

its hard for me to decide.

Snow

What is your mother's business?

Nofel

I wouldnt call it business, sorry for that term

its a school

my mom and dad started it

when I am out of job

my mom supports me fully

and had for a 8 months when I had no job

even while I am here she didnt let me spend a dim

but what I cant decide it to move back here or not coz I always asked her to teach me but she say u come and watch what I do, u will learn

and I had been a guy who never sits idle.

Snow

Running a school is a good thing do to. And it's good to have very supportive parents.

Nofel

there r many things, what If i dont make it well here as well

I have a history of loosing job

n If I ruin her school too coz of my fustration

of not having good "circumstance" coz in our country there might not be water for 1-2 days

or electricity

Snow

06:39

You won't do that. You're not the only person there, there would be a team to help you. There must also be guidelines to follow that will help too.

Nofel

the problem isn't jobs, its me. I realized it. I am sensitive by nature., In start my colleagues envyed me coz I knew what they didn't and we never saw eye to eye and when I intrdrouced jQuery they made a group and my manager saw it and pressed me which let me quit

when I was in 2nd one, they fired me coz I couldnt do wordpress and was slow

so I went freelance, I did wordpress project to a point I was mastered in it as was doing wordpress themes (CSS and layout) in hours. so I went to uk and there I found a job, which I was doing and this guy who was putting all wordpress things on me I was on breaking point, so I again annoyed and wrote a email to manager which had HD involved and I was laid off

8 months of recruitment hell coz I had php on my cv and all recruiter put me for php or fill stack roles but I couldnt get hired and then when I got hired it was short lived coz I was wrong guy for the job (no suprise), then I had the job where the manager was a hole (when I joined the chat)

Snow

That's not good to see. I really hope that you find something that suits you and a company that makes you feel more comfortable.

Nofel

it was second ever job I had that was long enough but u know my manager annoyed me to a point where I said I need to move on (I was doing CSS, RWD and wordpress there and I was a king but my mind was being tortunred)

then the last one, who gave me a lot respect, showed me a lot of things my personality was missing but that too didn't last coz I wasn't good enough for the role even after extensive support.

I start to believe it is me

Snow

I know you put yourself under a lot of pressure then, you were working and then being at home studying a lot. Sometimes you need to have some relaxing family time so that your mind can rest.

Nofel

yea this break did that

I hope

Snow

06:51

Are you feeling more relaxed being in Pakistan and taking some time off with family?

Nofel

well the time went too fast

I was suppose to go with my mom and see things

I had did have relaxed mind

coz I had developed a talking mind there

my mind would actively think even before me waking up from bed

e.g "Oh I need to develier X today and I didn't do it. let call in sick today" or "Oh it is dark outside and I cannot do abultion coz I am scared of shower heads"

I ask myself what if that thing happens here too

Snow

I hope that the relaxed mind continues. I often think about work when I'm at home, but not too much.

Nofel

where u going for hols?

Snow

07:08

Scotland. We've been there a few times. I'll be spending my 50th birthday there.

Nofel

cool

have fun on ur golden jubliee

Snow

Haha. You make me sound like the Queen!

Nofel

speaking of which, I loved the bishop sermon on love

although it was long and all royals were annoyed af but man that bishop did a speech

it was amazing

Snow

Yes, it was really good. I enjoyed that part as well.

My partner and her mother went there. She was in the crowds outside.

Nofel

cool

Snow

07:21

I had to drive them there at 530am on Saturday.

Nofel

why so early

Snow

To beat the crowd and get a good place. They managed to get a place right at the front so they got a good view.

Nofel

nice

Snow

I'm not sure I would have been patient enough to wait around for 6 hours. Many people slept there overnight.

Was the wedding popular in Pakistan?

Nofel

nope

but Diana wedding was a huge thing

Pakistani Loved Diana

Snow

07:30

I think everyone did.

Nofel

I guess the time of diana and time of now, pakistan has been amazing to worse. no water

government killing its ppl

by tax

amensty schemes

glad voting r coming

I hate what they did to Pakistan

Snow

Will things improve after voting? It must take a lot of money to make things better there.

Nofel

depends on which party comes

the only development was when there a coup

like literally, we had all our loan return to IMF

almost

business was booming

there is one party which is hopeful if that comes they can change

Snow

When are the elections?

Nofel

back in 70's pakistani universities were the best

national airliner was one of best

those were some days 70's - 90's

gov. is going out on 31

donno when is election

the PM wont realize that panama was a thing

coz he was disqualified for panama and other things basically everyone who come in power take money and make a property in uk or states

while nation suffers

Snow

07:44

That sucks. I need to get on with work though I'm afraid. Hope to catch up later.

Nofel

07:59

c u later. have a nice day

Masked Man

08:47

@DarkCygnus I got into a long discussion about that on my mod Q&A, and got 2 more downvotes lol. I guess I could have done a better edit, but it didn't occur to me when I made the edit.

Snow

I don't think the votes on the Meta Q&A mean an awful lot, as always it's just a "meta regulars" popularity thing. A lot more people will be voting properly. Having an endorsement from a currently serving moderator is a bigger swing than the Meta Q&S score.

2

Masked Man

09:04

@Snow I am not concerned by the downvotes, I just found it a bit amusing. I also went ahead and defended another mod candidate on his questionnaire, which was also a factor I think.

By the way, @MisterPositive, you were right, we at roughly the same level. I see we have been consistently picking downvotes together on the mod Q&A. We are both at -3 now lol.

motosubatsu

10:17

crikey.. all kicked off on the Mod Q&A over the weekend didn't it

Masked Man

Yeah it is bound to happen when there were two separate discussions about edits and close voting. Those two are controversial even in "normal" times.

motosubatsu

@MaskedMan yeah they do seem to be hot-button topics whenever they get brought up.. that's not to say they shouldn't be talked about though

Masked Man

It is good to talk about controversial topics that affect the site. One way or the other we will make some incremental progress towards a somewhat useful and consistent policy on dealing with them. Pushing it under the carpet because it leads to disagreement doesn't help achieve anything.

motosubatsu

@MaskedMan agreed

Masked Man

As one of managers used to fondly tell me, "someone has got to deal with the tough problems, so why not you?" :)

Snow

10:28

I read that too quickly. I thought you said "As one of my managers used to fondle me, they tell me "someone has hot to deal with the tough problems, so why not you?"

Masked Man

@Snow That actually sounds better. I will remember to use that when I become a manager. ;)

Snow

Darned HNQ telling me spoilers for a film I've not seen yet.

Masked Man

@Snow Congrats, you just saved some money.

Snow

I will go watch it at some point. The only question is when I'm allowed to.

motosubatsu

@Snow Infinity War by any chance?

Masked Man

10:34

I don't know what's on HNQ for the day, as I am on mobile browser.

Which movie?

Snow

Deadpool 2.

Masked Man

Oh I haven't watched that yet either. I think I will watch it tomorrow. Note to self: stay away from HNQ.

motosubatsu

@Snow I'll steer clear of HNQ then as I've not seen that yet (going to try get it watched next weekend)

Snow

I'm trying for sometime this week. What little I've read indicates they've attempted to raise the game rather than rehash the first one (which was excellent in itself).

I keep wondering whether Deadpool would have been able to survive Thanos' cull.

Masked Man

Tomorrow is my day off from work, so I am gonna watch it.

I take two days off every month as part of my therapy, tomorrow is one of them. :)

motosubatsu

10:38

@Snow interesting.. never thought of that!

Snow

Darn. Both Sci-Fi and Movies&TV are locked out for me.

motosubatsu

10:54

@Snow yeah I had to do the same while I was waiting to see Infinity War

@Crossedtheriverstyx hello sir.. how you doing today?

Crossed the river styx

11:09

@motosubatsu better, thank you. All the stress finally got to me.

I got help though

motosubatsu

@Crossedtheriverstyx glad you're feeling better :)

Masked Man

@Crossedtheriverstyx Glad to see you back, even if it is only for a bit. I hope to see you back in full swing soon. :)

Nofel

11:38

@Crossedtheriverstyx howdy mate

how r u doing

hy @motosubatsu

Crossed the river styx

Thanks folks. Yeah, I'll be dropping in from time to time, but I've got so much going on IRL right now that I don't have much stamina

Snow

@Crossedtheriverstyx Good to see you again. Hope you're more rested now.

Mister Positive

@Crossedtheriverstyx Morning, RL is way more important than this stuff. Take care of yourself first.

motosubatsu

12:21

@Nofel afternoon fella :)

IDrinkandIKnowThings

14:04

28

Q: "Fired" by my scrum team

I'm a manager of a development team. They have historically followed a very waterfall methodology and have been resistant to change. I'm a huge proponent of agile, so I hired a scrum master and said that we would be following scrum. I've stressed to the team the benefits of self-organizing tea...

scrum

Why is this question closed? It seems very answerable to me

motosubatsu

@IDrinkandIKnowThings I agree.. it's an unusually extreme example of weirdo office politics but it looked on-topic to me

Snow

I'm guessing it was closed because it was HNQ fodder. IMO the best way to do that is to edit the title so it's more boring and less sensational.

dwizum

14:28

I have a hard time answering questions like that

because I can't get into the head of the person asking it. They're YOUR team, they can't "fire" you...

Snow

I've edited the title of the question. It's probably not less HQN now, but at least it has the core question in the title (for those people who only bother reading the question title before hitting the VTC button).

dwizum

I think that's a fair edit. It seems ripe to draw a lot of discussion that focuses on the SCRUM decision and not on the real issue (this manager apparently has no control over his own staff)

Snow

To be fair, he should have thought about the consequences of his actions. It's like a chess player sacrificing a piece, only to find that it placed him into checkmate.

dwizum

yeah, the decision to switch to SCRUM may have been "bad" but still - these are your people, man! You're the boss!

Snow

14:49

There's been too many answers there with too many upvotes to add another answer, but my obvious one would be "yeah, that's fine" and then continue to manage the team. Take control of the projects and be a project manager, not just a scrum leader.

Feeds

0

Q: Edit or reopen question on communication issues with non-technical supervisors?

This question (Supervisor without relevant technical knowledge does not communicate project objectives clearly) was closed for lacking a goal we could address. (I was one of the close voters.) The OP has since edited the question to describe his situation more clearly and also included a goal. ...

discussion specific-question reopen-request edit-request

dwizum

@Snow Yeah, basically. I feel like one of the most important skills of a good manager is the ability to not make mountains out of molehills.

motosubatsu

@dwizum very true!

Snow

lol. The size of the molehills should be appropriate to the problem at hand. A good manager should understand the size of the problem.

motosubatsu

@Snow yep.. making molehills out of mountains can be just as disastrous (see so very many examples in big security breaches!)

Masked Man

14:57

I just read that question now and my first reaction was :facepalm:. Now look, I understand you are the manager, but you can't just barge in to the team and tell, "whatever you guys were doing until now is s***, I have this cool buzzword here, and this is what you will do from now on."

dwizum

It just reeks of an inexperienced leader. I feel bad for the OP but I don't know where to start

@MaskedMan The thing is, I don't think we know if the team actually rejected SCUM or not. Maybe they were happy about it

So happy that they thought they were efficient enough to run themselves now

or maybe they hate the guy and are using this as an excuse to get rid of him

Masked Man

I think I had written this in on of my answers, using your authority to manage the team should be your last resort, not the first. (maybe not in exactly these words).

dwizum

yeah, I agree

Masked Man

@dwizum Sounds like the team pulled off Hoist By His Own Petard. I can totally relate to this because I did something like this recently with my seagull manager. ;)

Long story short, my seagull manager introduced additional "processes" to ~~improve productivity~~ micromanage better. We racked our brains together and turned the game on its head. We started asking for his "guidance" on things that he had no clue about. Effectively giving him more micromanagement than he could handle.

Snow

Gosh. You went <shock> passive-agressive on him?

Masked Man

15:05

So it sounds to me like the team were upset at the manager bringing in a "scrum master" without discussing it with anyone, and decided to "wholeheartedly adopt scrum" to the extent where the manager was not required any more.

@Snow Not really. We didn't go that far, or rather we didn't need to.

Snow

If I had offered that advice on here, I'd have at least three people accuse me of being passive-agressive.

Masked Man

For example, one "process" introduced was to write a daily update into the bugtracker for every one of your tasks, regardless of whether you have made any progress or not. So we went ahead and did exactly that. "Didn't work on task #123 today as I was busy with task #456."

Using Obfuscating Stupidity also helped, because we just claimed that we didn't really understand what he meant, and if it caused any issues, we would gladly rectify it in future if we have some more clarity on what is expected.

dwizum

16:02

You just have to love the whole idea of, "give an update even if there is no update"

Masked Man

@dwizum Yeah, and I will give him credit for one thing: we have never ever worked like a team so well before. :P

Crossed the river styx

@MaskedMan I learned very early on (I was about 20) that if you don't have your team's support, you're going to have a very difficult time on the job.

@MaskedMan Often times, giving a micromanager EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS solves the problem.

2

dwizum

Any relationship, upwards or downwards on the corporate ladder, has to be based on trust and respect in order to function well. The problem with questions like this one, is that it's like asking "Should I keep a fire extinguisher in my home?" when, in fact, your home has already caught fire and burnt to the ground. We can talk all we want about what fire extinguisher to buy, but there's nothing to save

Crossed the river styx

@dwizum The corollary to that is "Nothing serves so well as a bad example"

Masked Man

16:19

@Crossedtheriverstyx Voraciously reading tvtropes is how I came up with the idea, particularly Hoist by His Own Petard, Gone Horribly Right and Obfuscating Stupidity.

Crossed the river styx

@MaskedMan I wish I had read THIS ONE prior to recent events.

@MaskedMan but since there was a CERTAIN PERCEPTION there seems to be no regrets.

Masked Man

@Crossedtheriverstyx I thought there was a lot of this as well.

Crossed the river styx

@MaskedMan Monica was a life saver though. Literally.

Anne Daunted

17:03

@dwizum You don't like Scrum too much, do you?

Chris E

@Snow I've been railed at a couple of times when I suggest that passive aggression can be a good option at times. :)

@dwizum It makes sense though. It's accountability. It gives people a chance to say, "why is this the first I'm hearing about it? because they know you've had an opportunity every morning to say something.

Snow

17:19

@ChrisE Yeah. I think some users seem to hunt and call out any passive-aggressive answer and pounce on it claiming that it's the height of rudeness. If someone interrupts my headphone time, I'll give them a passive-aggressive look every single time (especially if it's Pink Floyd).

Chris E

While passive aggression isn't good for interpersonal relationships, in the workplace, sometimes subtlety is need and passive aggression can be just that. You get to make a point without anyone saying that you did something wrong.

Snow

I guess the people I work with have thicker skins than most folks on the internet....

Crossed the river styx

As an interesting aside, some societies with extremely violent histories honed passive aggression to the level of an art form. It does serve the purpose of providing an outlet to more murderous alternatives.

Chris E

18:02

And that's my point. An example was the question where OP asked what to do about a manager (not his) running everywhere and it's distracting. I suggested passive aggression (such a s a checkered flag) which to me is a lot better than just snapping.

Crossed the river styx

@ChrisE It seems to me that snark/passive aggression is less acceptable than outright snapping at someone or even insult. I wonder why.

Chris E

It's less acceptable to people who pontificate on the internet, but in reality passive aggression is commonplace. sprinkle it with a little non-insulting humor (subtlety is the key) and it's great.

Crossed the river styx

@ChrisE In most shops I've worked in, that's pretty much been the rule.

dwizum

@AnneDaunted What gave you that impression?

Feeds

19:30

0

Q: Should we reach out to users on other StackExchange sites to diversify the content on The Workplace?

One of the questions selected for the most recent moderator election Q&A is This site has been dominated by the IT industry. What can we do to encourage more diversity? How can we be welcoming to blue collar and other workers who are not considered "professionals" or office workers? One pr...

discussion

MackM

I hate when my face pops up unexpectedly.

Crossed the river styx

@MackM If that's the worst thing to happen all day, it's a good day.

MackM

@Crossedtheriverstyx Very well put :)

Crossed the river styx

19:48

@MackM I come up with the occasional pearl of wisdom.

dwizum

@MackM Funny timing to make that comment, an old coworker just texted me a photo of my face on a giant screen at a conference he's at

Crossed the river styx

@dwizum I have a great face for radio

dwizum

@MackM I'm thinking about your post on meta. I'm wondering why it hasn't "worked itself out" yet. In other words, do people with questions about the restaurant or factory (or other non-office space) as a workplace already go somewhere else?

@Crossedtheriverstyx That's about what I was thinking. My radio face goes along well with my silent-movie vocal capabilities.

MackM

@dwizum I was just drafting a response to your comment

I'm basically thinking of questions like this: workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/112571/…

Crossed the river styx

@dwizum I doubt that they go elsewhere. But the answers to the factory worker were more... white collar than helpful for a blue collar worker. I've been from the mop to the top, then to the mop again, now on my way back up.

MackM

19:58

That is specific to a type of workplace, and the answers are excellent. They are coming from people with extensive, related, and personal experience on the issue. Answers like that are why this site is so great.

Crossed the river styx

When you're blue collar, your options are limited, your cash reserves are low, if anything.

@MackM I don't know why it attracted 4 close votes though

dwizum

I think some of the bias is natural to the medium. Techie people are more likely to be sitting at a keyboard (and ready to answer questions) than factory workers.

@Crossedtheriverstyx By elsewhere, I meant literally elsewhere - not just to another SE - like, they talk it over at the bar after work, or they ask their union, or whatever. I'm generalizing here but I hope you get the point.

Crossed the river styx

@dwizum Well, I think most of us got here through SO, thus the IT heavy balance. I was always a geek, so even as a laborer, I went online when I got home back in the ancient days of the usenet.

Most of us didn't hang out in bars though. Bars are expensive.

These days though, access to the interwebs is almost ubiquitous. Even when I was homeless, I could go into the library

It's interesting to see what the perception of blue collar is among white collar people though.

Anne Daunted

20:14

@dwizum The chat message of yours I answered went like this: "The thing is, I don't think we know if the team actually rejected SCUM or not."

dwizum

@AnneDaunted haha yes I see it now

your humor was too subtle for me to pick it up on my own!

Anne Daunted

;-)

Chris E

vote vote vote

Feeds

21:23

0

Q: Is this really a likely situation?

This question is regarding a manager who has been "fired" by their team. They note that they cannot seem to turn to anyone else, because their supervisor and the succeeding supervisor are both away for months, and neither of them has a replacement. The next person in the chain of command appear...

discussion

DarkCygnus

22:23

Whoa

didn't know that downloading a file and saving it to SD on android was such a PITA

motosubatsu

22:36

@ChrisE voted :) somehow I managed to feel oddly guilty voting for myself

DarkCygnus

23:50

@motosubatsu it's valid though...

Good Questionnaire answers everybody :)

seems that we all agree on several things

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