The Water Cooler - 2017-07-05

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angarg12

06:21

0

Q: Attending IT technical interviews with a purpose of testing personal skills

I attend technical IT interviews to check if personal techical skills are good and for marketing research (what technologies are popular at market at this moment, what tech. gaps do I have etc.). The real purpose of an interview isn't actually obtaining a job. So, If I were to be offered a ...

interviewing software-industry communication ethics

I should be ashamed of myself but I have to admit I have done this myself recently

1 hour later…

angarg12

07:45

I've heard several times that software engineers make fortunes in the arab emirates, but every time I check online I see sub-par salaries reported

any idea where this myth comes from?

Kaz

07:58

@angarg12 It really depends what you do and where, and when. For instance, Oil Industry jobs in the Gulf for Certified Engineers: Ridiculous salaries, especially when you consider the lack of taxes.

And most of those jobs don't get advertised online.

Kaz

08:09

Most of it is done working for/through huge Multinationals.

1 hour later…

motosubatsu

09:09

Another OP who isn't getting the responses he hoped for?

Its time to stop being nice and humble here at this point. The number of people on this planet who know more than me in scientific fields totality probably can fit in a nyc subway train. I have been intensely studying science engineering math etc for the past 37 years. Maybe I should make a shout out and challenge to all engineers physicist etc that if I can solve a complex company problem without using the internet I should be hired immediately at minimum wage. — john magee 18 hours ago

angarg12

09:38

@Kaz good point

@motosubatsu that is the point where workplace and iamverysmart collide

motosubatsu

10:24

@angarg12 It's also frustratingly vague... I mean what config is the subway train in? Is it a four-car set vs a five-car set? That's a capacity difference of over 250 people, I'm sure that much difference in position in the league tables from the International Society For Ranking Scientists That Is Totally A Real Thing is immense :D

sorry I've definitely not had enough sleep

Kaz

11:10

@motosubatsu Reminds me of the advice about saying "Don't you know who I am?". If you have to say it, then it's worthless.

motosubatsu

12:06

@Kaz very true!

Kaz

12:19

I do not understand some people.

1

Q: Job offer and contract signed (both sides): no response?

I received a new job offer (management level) 1 month ago from a company based in Country Y. I currently live in Country Z. Contract signed by HR and I sent them back a signed copy from my side via email - 4 weeks ago. I haven't received any notification from HR confirming they received it. I k...

You've quit your previous job, you're relocating to another country and you've heard nothing from the company that's supposedly hiring you in over a month? PICK UP THE PHONE RIGHT NOW AND CALL THEM. — Kaz 31 secs ago

Like, how on earth do you let a situation get to that point.

motosubatsu

saw that one and thought very much the same as you @Kaz

David K

Yeah, no kidding.

Richard U

@Kaz SMH What the holy funk!

David K

I'm just hoping they didn't send their new company any checks for fees that "will be reimbursed later"

Richard U

I saw a video yesterday that our schools have not been teaching the younger generations how to survive in the world, seeing this, I'm now very inclined to agree

@DavidK I hope this person's new employer isn't a prince in Nigeria.

Richard U

12:35

@motosubatsu too bad for that guy who didn't like the responses he got, but at least with his genius, he should have that cure for cancer ready for us any day now.

motosubatsu

@RichardU indeed... but will we be able to believe him when he tells us what it is? :D

Richard U

@motosubatsu Well, just a little padding to the resume, He's not exactly an expert on cancer, but he does have a large mole that is suspicious.

motosubatsu

@RichardU and he saw that episode of House where some guy had cancer

Richard U

@motosubatsu but at least it wasn't lupis. It's never lupis

motosubatsu

@RichardU haha.. so true (loved that show btw)

David K

12:48

@motosubatsu Wow, that guy is ridiculous

motosubatsu

@DavidK you should have seen the answer I originally wrote to the question (which was actually before the insanely arrogant comment I linked to earlier), suffice it to say it would have violated the "Be Nice" policy six ways to sunday!

Richard U

@motosubatsu He's lucky that @JoeStrazzere didn't get a crack at him.

David K

Well, I imagine he probably deserved it

Richard U

@DavidK I have never met a true genius who wasn't also humble. The great have no need to brag

Can we have a filter that automatically redirects anyone who types in "super" into a question to that Robin Williams speech in "Dead Poets Society"?

motosubatsu

@RichardU or a youtube link to "I'm super, thanks for asking!" from South Park?

Richard U

12:58

@motosubatsu LOL

David K

Which speech is that?

Richard U

@DavidK

“So avoid using the word ‘very’ because it’s lazy. A man is not very tired, he is exhausted. Don’t use very sad, use morose. Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women - and, in that endeavor, laziness will not do. It also won’t do in your essays.”

David K

Ah, yes, that one.

I once had a choir director who said that we should strive to never be described by four letter words. No one wants to be good, fine, or okay. We should be fantastic, outstanding, or incredible.

Richard U

@DavidK When I got out of school, I was shocked that I was listening to the radio and didn't know some of the words the host was using. I immediately went out and bought all the classic literature I could find and forced myself to increase my vocabulary. Now my friends accuse me of having swallowed both a dictionary and a thesaurus.

Uh oh...... looks like this one just doesn't learn.....

workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/94295/…

53

Q: Non-technical project manager, how to repair poor relationship with subordinates?

I am a project manager for a design firm. When I initially started, I was to do an assessment of the company. However, the project manager at the time and one of the senior executives did not want me there. Therefore they instructed everyone to NOT speak to me. The employees are young and impress...

communication team complaint

it seems our project manager did get written up by HR and instead of accepting responsibility, she is now attacking HR

@motosubatsu good edit, I voted to reopen because there are issues such as confidentiality and retaliations that could be addressed

motosubatsu

13:20

@RichardU Yeah I edited because I feel ultimately that there is a good Workplace question in there somewhere, especially with the usefulness in teaching people that HR != Court, let alone an episode of Judge Judy

obviously that potential usefulness has to be dug out from under the fact that the OP is... prickly

oh dear... now the OP is spoiling for a fight with SaggingRufus. Can I get odds on this being another round of the OP not liking the responses?

Richard U

@motosubatsu yeah, I can see why she's having problems. My first stab at management I made similar mistakes and paid for it. Biggest thing I learned is to cherish the people who report to you.

David K

0

Q: Notification for resolved flags

Is it possible to get a notification when one of our flags has been resolved? This request is similar to this question, but I think it would be good for all users, not just the first few flags. Aside from many new users not knowing where they can see all of their flags, it gets annoying to go bac...

feature-request flags notifications flag-history

motosubatsu

@RichardU amen to that... I'm not a very good manager (if I'm brutally honest) but I understand exactly what you mean, and I've seen enough "managers" over the years who didn't get that fact and instead saw their team as the enemy or a burden. It was never pretty!

Richard U

13:48

@motosubatsu I was very successful as a project manager because I learned my lesson. These people could make me or break me, so I made them feel like they were God's gift. I also had to compete with other project managers for their time. Care to guess who's work took precedence?

motosubatsu

@RichardU sound strategy - I've had a PM who operated in similar ways to that OP and to a man every person on the team hated them and it was a very dysfunctional team

Richard U

@motosubatsu Yep, I was at someone's desk once as he was helping me and ignoring the phone call of another PM who was very much like the OP. I learned that the only ones who can ever damage your career are the ones who report to you. You actually have more reason to be kind to those below you than those above you.

-2

Q: Written up by HR

I was recently written up by HR. They interviewed myself and a couple of other individuals and concluded I was wrong resulting in the write up. However HR did not share all the evidence against me, just bits and pieces. When I inquired what else was written, I was told they had to keep it confid...

human-resources

Four votes to reopen ^^^^ can we get a fifth? (Other than the one I'm grabbing tonight at the liquor store)

enderland

14:08

@motosubatsu reminds me of this question

-14

Q: How do I deal with hiring reservations when resume is affected by IQ discrimination?

I recently was rejected from a job. In the end they told me I was not hired for another stated reason: my employment history shows a lot of two-month stints, and they were afraid that if hired, I would jump ship three or four months in, and seeing my employment history they were positive about th...

Feeds

0

Q: Let me google that for you

I am referencing this question Python Interview Questions This question showed zero research effort, so in one of my comments I used a "Let me google that for you" link. Is that over the top for this type of question? Is the use of these links allowed under any circumstances?

Richard U

@enderland we should start our own company and hire all of these geniuses. We'd have cold fusion ready in a week, interstellar travel in a few months, and clinical immortality within the year.

enderland

within the year? ppppffffft need to set goals higher

Richard U

@enderland it's funny, I have an above average IQ, but I don't lord it over anyone and don't pretend I know much of anything, but I invariably seem to be able to run circles around these self-proclaimed geniuses.

motosubatsu

I've said before that the only real use of IQ in determining someone's intelligence is whether they are smart enough to know that IQ is a shit way of measuring real-world inteliigence

@enderland It would be faster but a certain user on here will convince all the Software Engineers that they are truly God's gift to all humankind and we'll end up with a bunch of divas

enderland

14:20

.... we're not?!

@RichardU I suspect I do, but I guess I've never taken anything other than the silly online tests

motosubatsu

@enderland well I am of course.. but I'm the real deal the rest of you are all just jumped up helpdesk monkeys :P

Christopher Estep

Oh, look. a troll.

-4

Q: Boss thinks I'm incompetent, and I really am, but I want to keep this job

CONTEXT: I work as a software developer in a very small company (10 people, we all work on the same floor) that specializes in open-source software. I'm on a trial period that is supposed to end in September. It is a very convenient job for me because it is based in my native city with no busine...

software-industry software-development redundancy

maybe not, but I wouldn't put money on it though.

Richard U

@enderland I only know mine because of all the evaluations they had to do for my disabilities.

@ChristopherEstep probably, but good answer by Joe. but then again, when has joe given a bad answer?

2

enderland

@RichardU yeah, he's got a good answer there (HLGEM's comments are pretty good too, though tangential to the question somewhat)

motosubatsu

I had mine tested at school... it was pretty high but fortunately I had some actual bona fide sooper-geniuses in my class so I never got a big ego over it.

Richard U

14:31

@motosubatsu I learned long ago that nobody knows everything. I remember a quote from Emerson "In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.”

motosubatsu

Good quote that.. I'll have to remember that one!

Kaz

@motosubatsu The last time I saw a longitudinal cohort study that included relevant data, it said that IQ and Life Outcomes have a strong correlation up to about 120, and zero correlation thereafter.

So, an IQ that puts you in the top ~1/3 of the population is useful, but everything above that threshold is completely irrelevant.

Richard U

@Kaz Beyond 120, mental illness becomes far more common as well.

SHow me a true genius who is not also an emotional wreck.

enderland

@RichardU sadly I think this is me

(I just found the SUPER SCIENTIFIC results of an online IQ test I took years ago which would put me above that apparently?)

Richard U

@enderland I don't have issues. I have the whole FREEKIN' subscription

enderland

14:34

I've told my wife that I'm going to go crazy someday. I'm not sure she believes me, but... hopefully she's right?

motosubatsu

@Kaz sounds about right.. I had a friend once who constantly made a big deal about his mid-140s IQ, and he completely failed at life by most reasonable metrics. Couldn't manage his money, couldn't finish even the first year of his degree, couldn't forge an actual career, and had the interpersonal skills of a maladjusted slug.

Richard U

@enderland Oh, that ship sailed long ago for me. I'm a loon and I know it.

@motosubatsu sounds like me

Kaz

Interesting question: To what extent is "my mind works differently to most peoples'" a mental disorder by definition.

Richard U

@Kaz autism spectrum disorder

enderland

I pretty much am the stereotypical INTJ type

Kaz

14:37

@enderland I've got the INT part nailed down pretty defintively, but I can never decide if I'm a J or a P.

enderland

@Kaz I'm definitely a J. unordered stuff drives me insane and the "just go with the flow" is an abomination :v

Richard U

@enderland I once took a mental health test and scored "very high tendencies" for Psycopothy, schizoidtypal, and borderline personality disorder. Somehow, I'm still a fairly nice guy...

motosubatsu

@RichardU oh believe me you aren't even close to this guy, you're actually a relatively balanced and well-rounded individual. I could tell you some of his classics but you probably wouldn't believe me!

Richard U

@motosubatsu Well, I crashed so hard, lots of that was knocked out of me. It's amazing how living at survival level for a bit can make you adjust your world view

motosubatsu

@RichardU yeah I've actually thought at times that he would actually benefit from a period of genuine sink-or-swim. Not that it's something I'd actually wish on anyone though!

Richard U

14:43

@motosubatsu if Nietzsche was correct, and that that which does not destroy me serves to make me stronger, I should be ready to bench-press an aircraft carrier by now.

I will say that there is something about being so completely and totally screwed that brings about a certain serenity.

motosubatsu

and besides after spending about 20 years trying everything I could think of to help him I actually ended up cutting him out of my life. I'm not overly proud of it but during an extremely bad time for me he took advantage of me (not in that way!) and my generosity only to utterly betray my trust when I pushed back a little (politely)

oofff.. sorry that got a bit melodramatic there for a minute!

Richard U

@motosubatsu I also learned that you do a person no favors by helping them when they could and should help themselves. The good news on my part is that I'm now a force to be reckoned with.

motosubatsu

@RichardU very true.. I was a slow learner on that front (and can still backslide if I'm not careful)

enderland

this sums up my "helping" philosophy:

user image

SoylentGray

When someone refuses to try to fish dump them out of the boat in the middle of the lake.

how long does it take before we can protect a question?

enderland

14:53

@SoylentGray I'm not sure. it used to be different for Workplace but I can't remember if that's still in effect

since becoming a moderator I.. don't see that again

SoylentGray

3

Q: My old company forgot to stop my restauration card contract

I was working in a company where he had restauration card that have 7 euros each day added so we can buy our meals with it. After I quit the company, my idea was to continue using the card until there is nothing left in it. But after a few months by my surprise it still wouldn't be empty, so I ca...

compensation overpayment

can you pr4otect that pllease....

if that fails to hit hnq can always unprotect it.

PlasmaHH

Is it standard in your country/culture to go to job interviews to figure out what the company does, where it is and generally if you want to apply for the job?

motosubatsu

@PlasmaHH I'm in the Uk and there's no real standard per se but it's considered a good idea to treat an interview/hiring process as a two way street - it's as much about deciding if you would like to work there as it is about them deciding if they want to employ you

2

I've walked away from offers before because I didn't like what I found

and I've taken jobs I should have walked away from as well!

SoylentGray

@PlasmaHH It used to be alot more... but with the interwebs for most companies you should already have done some due diligence and know something. Very few companies are obfuscated to where you dont know the industry and what they do in it.

But what the exact role is, most positions just use a blanket add and dont provide many details about the specific job. And yes it is part of the interview process where you should be asking about that and making sure it is something that interests you.

PlasmaHH

I find that a rather time consuming/wasting thing. While the last interview I could decline beforehand (after the phone interview and when I got invited to a onlocation interview) because the location wasn't where I liked it to be (too much time to commute), but in another one I had to spent one day of my vacation to go there and figure out what kind of software the job was actually about

@SoylentGray since virtually everything here goes through recruiters and/or portals, it often is even obfuscated on where it is. The best you usually get is the city.

SoylentGray

15:11

@PlasmaHH Usually you will be told before the interview where it is though.

PlasmaHH

@SoylentGray yes, but isn't that kind of stupid? You apply (aka pretending to want the job) and possibly go through a phone interview and then get invited on location and only then you say "ah, no, don't want the job"

SoylentGray

@PlasmaHH With the exception of one time (for a top secret position) i was told who the company was before the phone interview.... And yes that is part of the hiring process. They want you to feel invested if they make you an offer so you are less likely to turn it down.

Kaz

user image

motosubatsu

@PlasmaHH It's a bit stupid - and a consequence of the highly-obfuscated hiring process that is prevalent in some cultures, it'd be more stupid to go in for the in-person interview knowing that you didn't want it though

Kaz

@PlasmaHH Ideally, you will do as much research as you can beforehand, and then interviews (especially on-site) are a chance to observe all the stuff that you can't find on google.

@PlasmaHH Turning them down after a phone interview is fine. Phone interviews are (relatively) cheap for the company to perform. Which is why they use them for screening.

SoylentGray

15:19

@motosubatsu is it really? I have taken many interviews for companies I didnt want to work for. 1 - Its practice for when I want the job. 2- I might have made a mistake with my initial assessment. 3 - Its a small world you never know when someone you interview with at one company is someone you are interviewing with now at another. Its always good to have contacts.

Kaz

@SoylentGray I will gladly take any interview at any company that wants to try and hire me.

You never know what you might get out of the experience.

motosubatsu

@SoylentGray sorry to clarify I was thinking more about situations like PlasmaHH mentioned where things like location are a complete non-starter

if there is even the slightest chance that I might want to work there then yes I'll be going to the interview :)

PlasmaHH

@SoylentGray I expect them to make an offer only after the interview though. Even for my current job many years ago I only knew the company before the interview by coincidence

motosubatsu

@PlasmaHH whereabouts in the world are you?

SoylentGray

@motosubatsu Again im reluctant to say no with out an interview. but no one asks me to interview for a position in Russia, India, or Pakistan. I suppose I would not even consider one of those.

Kaz

15:25

@SoylentGray Depends if they only want to do it over skype or not. I once had a potential employer reach out from Hong Kong (I'm in the UK). It never went very far but I would absolutely have been willing to investigate further.

heather

hello, i'm trying to get some advice for getting a job in programming/tech as someone who is just entering highschool (I am old enough to legally work) in the U.S.

LangeHaare

The practice thing makes a big difference for me, the first time I was on a job hunt I had several bad interviews that I was extremely nervous for and got rejected every time. Eventually I had an interview where I wasn't nervous at all because I was "over it", and I was more comfortable with the style of questions etc because they were similar to what I'd faced before. And finally I got the job

Kaz

@heather The only kind of programming that matters: Actually building stuff that works.

enderland

@heather do you have programming experience?

motosubatsu

@SoylentGray I think I've only turned down pre-interview three times - twice because the location was completely untenable (one sounded feasible at first but turned out it would have meant a commute of sheer insanity and the other would have meant relocating to another continent) and the third was down to the fact that even if I got the highest possible salary they were offering it would have been a pay cut of over £10k

Kaz

15:26

Create a github profile. Start programming things. By the time you're done with highschool, you'll have a public portfolio of code you've created that you can send to any potential employer.

heather

@enderland yes, i've been programming on my own for several years now in python (especially python 3). I'm currently reading a rather large reference tome to "formalize" my knowledge of python. I've also used LaTeX quite a bit, and github, though I don't have many projects there.

i'm planning on moving some more of my projects to github so they're visible.

Kaz

Also see things like HackerRank

Also, come to CodeReview ^^

PlasmaHH

@Kaz I think though that if I knew what they did and where they were I could even skip the phone interview and not wait for their onsite interview invitation just to turn that down

@motosubatsu Germany

enderland

@heather as someone who has interviewed a lot of internship candidates for software development in a very near vicinity to you, having a GH would make it a lot easier to bring you in for an internship interview....

motosubatsu

@heather bonus points for use of the word "tome", more seriously it sounds like you're on the right sort of path. Practice makes perfect as they say so code your own projects where you can, read blogs on your chosen languages/technologies, use CodeReview.SE and stackoverflow to learn

PlasmaHH

15:28

And on bad mobile at the moment, might not be able to always respond

heather

@Kaz okay =) i don't really trust myself to review code myself, but i'll start asking questions there.

LangeHaare

@heather hiya, you might want to try doing some small projects on freelancing sites. Then I think you don't have to tell the client your age, you can do some small projects and build up from there, you can do it during holidays and during the school year - etc. It's not as efficient for building knowledge and experience as working with other professionals but might be a good place to start?

Richard U

@heather volunteer work at a hospital can lead to FTE

motosubatsu

@PlasmaHH ahh might be a bit different from here in the UK then - here you'll generally find out the name of the company at least before you have any direct contact with them yourself

heather

@LangeHaare well...I already asked my dad about doing that, but he didn't allow me because I'm not old enough to legally participate on all sites I've seen.

motosubatsu

15:31

@heather that's what it's there for, when you start being able to answer questions as well as ask them you can probably say you are making excellent progress :)

PlasmaHH

@motosubatsu it used to be like that here too, and sometimes is, but more often than not important information is missing. Likely because recruiters don't want you to skip them

One of the best methods is to take some of the text and do a Google search to find the same/similar position description on the real companies site

SoylentGray

@PlasmaHH where at?

PlasmaHH

The thing that at the moment annoys me most is that I already had to spent vacation days to get information that made me turn the job down. Like, only the city location won't suffice

@SoylentGray Germany?

motosubatsu

@heather that can be an issue as in some jurisdictions as you may be too young to sign a contract

SoylentGray

@PlasmaHH and why is the location a problem?

motosubatsu

15:35

in that case small-ish open source projects might be worth a look?

PlasmaHH

@SoylentGray because I don't want to spend hours on the way to work

heather

@enderland ah, yeah. where i'm at there's the APEX program - i'm hoping to do some of those courses senior year.

enderland

There's a lot of programs like that in your area, I think most high schools within a large radius are doing things like that

I know that some of them involve software dev types of stuff, too

SoylentGray

@PlasmaHH So why not relocate or see about working primarily remotely?

Not trying to attack you, you may have reasons, but just pointing out if the only thing that is a problem is location, there are solutions.

PlasmaHH

@SoylentGray relocating is not an option and working remotely is usually only possible for a few times a week here

SoylentGray

15:44

@PlasmaHH is that a law thing?

PlasmaHH

@SoylentGray no, more a culture thing. And in my experience for most jobs it makes sense to have the majority of the team onsite for most of the time

Kaz

@heather You can also post your own code for review. Most of what I learnt about writing good code I learnt from posting my code to CR.

SoylentGray

16:04

@PlasmaHH Its your choice to me there are potential options that make it worth checking out.

motosubatsu

Wonder if TWP should maintain a list like this one: askamanager.org/2013/10/…

4

Kaz

16:19

@motosubatsu I think that would make an awesome (though regrettably Off-Topic) Cannonical question.

PlasmaHH

@SoylentGray isn't really attractive to me. I don't have a place at home that I would want to work from, and then the kids and noise from the kindergarten besides us, and the heat. Offices have air conditioning mostly ;) plus I really like going home and the clear cut between home and work.

I have the option at the current place to do it, but only do it my every two weeks

SoylentGray

16:36

I like the list... I wonder if we could do some sort of community wiki question and answer.

One problem I see is that each one really would need a reference for every country. In some countries/states some of those things in the list are illegal, even though they are commonly done because its so hard to show any damage from it.

PlasmaHH

17:08

Indeed a couple of things are illegal here, or depend on the contract

SoylentGray

@PlasmaHH Well it can violate the contract and still be legal.

For instance: it’s legal to require a general release before paying severance. - may be against contract but it may not be illegal. They may lose at court but it will be up to the Union/Employee to fight to get that provision enforced.

as opposed to being able to get the DoLabor to persue the case if it were illegal.

PlasmaHH

17:27

Dolabor?

angarg12

17:49

so now I have to deal with all that rat poo myself??

SoylentGray

@angarg12 no but you can be fired if you refuse.

@PlasmaHH Department of Labor

angarg12

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

SoylentGray

catch all for the labor ministry etc

@angarg12 you have a job paying $1k per hour doing code... your boss says we need you to clean up those rat droppings or you are fired... you go clean up those rat droppings.

angarg12

for $1k an hour I would spend all day long cleaning up poo

PlasmaHH

@angarg12 depends on where you live and what your job description is and how often you have to do that

Richard U

17:58

Ah, just got a scammer call from a poser claming to be from Microsoft. Cursed him out in Hindi, and reported him to the federal trade commission.

angarg12

"Package is flexible" must be one of the most useless lines recruiters use

Richard U

@angarg12 that's right along there with a long policy spelled out in excruciating detail, ending in the phrase "or at management's discretion"

angarg12

the one that really gets me is "if you are not interested and know someone who could be...|

to me that translates to "hey, we are this super cool company who REALLY want you to work here! well, actually anyone would do, so..."

Richard U

@angarg12 Yep. "We have your name and didn't really take any time to match you to anything, so we're spamming your email, if you'd like to spam someone else for us, please do"

2

angarg12

hahahaha

Masked Man - 仮面の男

18:11

@angarg12 I have heard this line from recruiters, "package is the best in the industry". Yeah, right, I find it totally helpful, and completely believe it.

SoylentGray

@RichardU That is the thing that pisses me off about recruiters. Especially when I tell them specifically several times what I am looking for and they still call me fot the same job i have turned down repeatedly

angarg12

@MaskedMan-仮面の男 you see, that wouldn't happen with this guy workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/93543/…

Masked Man - 仮面の男

Just about a month ago, a recruiter emailed me saying "we have exciting opportunities in our start-up company, please send your resume and expected salary by end of the week". I wasn't actively looking for a job, so just ignored it as spam, but he kept pestering me daily saying, "I am still waiting for your response". Then on Friday, I flew off the handle when he said, "today is the deadline for submitting your resume. I have extended it to 9pm for you, please avoid delaying any further".

angarg12

yesterday a recruiter asked to have a call for a position, I declined and he went ahead and sent me an email with the details anyway

I never was "in the market" before, and I'm astonished by the world of recruiters

Masked Man - 仮面の男

My initial reply of, "Thanks, I am not actively looking, but nonetheless, I am always open to any good opportunities that come up. Please let me know the package being offered." was ignored entirely.

So I called him and asked why he expects me to take the time to update my resume on short notice for a job I don't even know if I would be interested in and one for which I have to go through 4 rounds of interview just to find out the package being offered.

angarg12

18:21

recently I found the word "sadlarious", I think we all may find it handy

Masked Man - 仮面の男

That was when he gave me that gem, "don't worry about package, ours is the best in the industry"!! I told him to keep the offer letter ready, and I will reveal my skillset after signing the agreement. "Don't worry about my skills and experience. I am the best in the industry"!!

This is also relevant for a number of questions we get here: I Have This Friend...

Richard U

@SoylentGray In order to be a recruiter, they give you the ethics test for a used car salesman. If you fail the test, you're hired.

SoylentGray

@MaskedMan-仮面の男 I like to play the string those idiots along game. Yeah I sent that resument to you last night. Didnt you get it? What still dont have it. could you get your IT group to see why its filtering my emails?

Then freak out on the recuiter for not getting your app in in time... but the end of it I wont hear from those morons for another 2 weeks.

@RichardU lol sometimes I think

angarg12

18:37

to add to @RichardU comment, this happened to me

SoylentGray

More like those who can do, Do. Those who cant do, Teach. Those who cant even teach go to HR.

angarg12

I got a call from a recruiter one day, the job was sort of interesting, when he asked salary I said "80k", and he replied "that's ok, the budget for this position is 100k"

next day I get a call from another recruiter... for the same position!!

I played the same script, and when we got to the salary

Richard U

@angarg12 oy vey!

angarg12

his answer was "that is too high, the top for this position is 70k, I can't offer you more"

SoylentGray

@angarg12 different companies have different splits.

angarg12

18:39

and he tried to lowball me for a while

SoylentGray

they usually get a cut of the difference between what you get paid and the top what you could be paid. So if their budget is 100k and they get you in for 80k they X% of that 20k difference.

angarg12

my GF told I should have called him out and
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Richard U

@angarg12 Forget used car salesman! That one failed the army recruiter ethics test!

angarg12

huh, weird

I understand the motivation

SoylentGray

<= former army recuiter...

angarg12

18:42

but we get so many questions about ethics and lying, so....

SoylentGray

lol meant I am

Richard U

@SoylentGray then you know what I mean. ;)

you know the stereotype

SoylentGray

at the time I believed the crap i was selling

now feel like a POS but hey

Richard U

@SoylentGray my brother bought the crap the Navy was selling.

Kaz

@MaskedMan-仮面の男 I would respond with "That's really interesting, so who's got the 2nd best package in the industry?"

SoylentGray

19:13

@angarg12 Ethics are mostly off topic here. There are maybe 20 or 30 questions total that are tagged ethics that should be ethics and are on topic

most of them are actually professionalism questions

@RichardU they literally brainwash you. That is the entire point of basic is to drill out all those pesky morals and willingness to question orders.

angarg12

19:41

@SoylentGray yes you are right. Still, I stand by my bottom line, that this behaviour is unprofessional (thanks for the clarification)

SoylentGray

@angarg12 why would that be unprofessional? This is one of those cases where its not really about professionalism here its an ethics question. But that is why I said in meta questions about professions that are violent by nature should be off topic here

They do the same thing in police academies. *the real ones not the goofy comedies from the 80s

Richard U

@angarg12 I rarely lie, I find that the truth does far more and lasting damage

Kaz

20:00

@RichardU Plus, it's just so much work trying to keep the truth and the lies separate and self-consistent ^^

SoylentGray

@Kaz Tahts where Gaslighting comes into play :p

Magisch

Businessinsider AU has an article about us: businessinsider.com.au/…

Kaz

@Magisch Goddamnit! Now we'll never shift it off the #1 spot.

SoylentGray

Over the past week, programmers have been having a huge discussion on the ethics of secretly automating their jobs, after one of them posted a question about it on Stack Overflow, a self-help site for programmers. this is the problem wiht that question it is infact a discussion

Magisch

They even quote me :3

Richard U

20:52

@Magisch you have been quoted along with Joe. It is indeed a great honor.

SoylentGray

21:30

2

A: Should I disclose a 'learning disability' to my employer?

You should talk to your manager or HR contact to make sure that they understand your situation. In many cases, if you are in good standing and a valuable (potential) employee, they will work with you on accommodations for this. I do disagree with one of your claims though, and it is important t...

nothing like biggotry front and center in an answer.

Kaz

22:04

@SoylentGray That's not how I interpreted it. To me, it seemed like a very fair, practical, realistic assessment of the situation. You have attributes. Some of these help you achieve things in your job, some of them hinder that. Since an employer is going to notice the effects either way, you are better off being upfront about it, where you can influence the narrative and perception, than waiting for them to notice.

I did exactly that with my current job. I came in with several, quite severe, disruptive, problems. When I was interviewing, I told them "This is my situation, this is what has happened, these are the likely effects and outcomes. You should still hire me because the other half of the time, when I'm on top of my game, I do awesome, amazing work."

Much better to know how they're going to feel about that before they hire you.

And also much better not to pretend that it doesn't have consequences. I can legitimately say I think I'm worth more than the average employee because my strengths outweigh my weaknesses, but my employer might value/see things differently than I do.

@RichardU Would love to get your perspective.

Richard U

22:25

@Kaz It's almost never a good idea to disclose your disabilities if you can avoid it. The Americans with disabilities asct has made employers look at us like walking lawsuits waiting to happen.

Kaz

@RichardU Does that depend on how likely a employer is to notice a disability once you start though?

In a case where they're going to eventually notice, is it not better to actively screen, in advance, for the ones that are willing to hire you?

Richard U

@Kaz If it's going to affect your work, then yes. If not, keep it quiet. But if it is going to show/affect your work, better to let it be known and let them discriminate against you in hiring, because they WILL find a way to remove you.

Kaz

22:52

@SoylentGray Also, may I suggest that bigotry is probably not the correct term.

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