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Kaz
Kaz
08:59
For anynoe who is interested (and American):
100:1 odds on Boris Johnson being PM on June 30th
 
2 hours later…
10:51
Hi guys, In a small engineering firm, If I were looking for a job would it be better to go in the office in person instead of sending a CV?
In UK
 
1 hour later…
12:01
@user8469759 what process does the prospective company have? If their process involves sending a CV, then you should do that
if they prefer folks to apply via a meet up in the pub, then do that
generally speaking, companies have a job board - this could be online, but it could be on a pinboard inside their office. All companies are different, which is why your best bet is to contact them and ask what they prefer
Kaz
Kaz
@user8469759 Unless you can find some example, or ask somebody who already works there, there's no way to know. Some managers look favourably on that kind of thing. Think it shows positive qualities and a good attitude. Others think it shows disrespect and is needlessly disrupting.
You'll definitely stand out.
12:32
@Kaz I love long odds 100:1, not too bad :D
@user8469759 it depends if you know the name of a contact in the company. I've done it before. My brother had a contact there, I pitched up out of the blue and asked for him with my cv.
But be ready to be turned down
If the company has offices open to the public and you have the name of someone relevant to the job you're applying to, there's no harm in giving it a shot. You need thick skin, though. They may tell you to apply online
13:00
@Kaz Gawd, that could be scary, Boris and Trump together arm in arm is not a thing I would like to see any time soon.
@Draken It's the same story throughout history. People feel as if they are not being heard, and then support the first person who says he's listening.
@MaskedMan YEP!
You can't ride roughshod over people without consequences.
13:39
0
Q: Request to reopen the question on employees gaming a reward points system

Masked ManThis question (How can I prevent my employees from gaming a reward points system?) was closed as off-topic because in its original version, it seemed to ask for an app design. The OP clarified in the comments and edits that their actual issue was about preventing the cashier from gaming the sys...

Folks, please have a look at this reopen request.
0
Q: Request to reopen the question on employees gaming a reward points system

Masked ManThis question (How can I prevent my employees from gaming a reward points system?) was closed as off-topic because in its original version, it seemed to ask for an app design. The OP clarified in the comments and edits that their actual issue was about preventing the cashier from gaming the sys...

@MaskedMan voted to reopen
@RichardU Thanks!
@RichardU ... and that leads to non-stop whining from the "other" people who were being heard earlier, because the new guy has now knocked them off their "prima donna" pedestal.
@MaskedMan four reopen votes now.
@MaskedMan it seems people have had bees in their respective bonnets as of late. Is it me, or is there a level of meanness and snarkiness permeating the site?
13:55
@RichardU I don't see much difference, but then it could have to do with my numbness to snarkiness (in general, not just on this site).
@MaskedMan It could be me. I've got so many things going on in RL, including a missing family member, a family member with cancer, my own health issues worsening, and problems involving my children. Maybe I'm just touchy.
Kaz
Kaz
14:08
@RichardU Yeah. If I were American (and therefore allowed to participate), I would buy all 359 of those 1¢ contracts in a heartbeat.
@Kaz yep :D
I tried to answer my question on meta, and I got the prompt: "Are you sure you want to answer your question?" along with an "explanation" of what editing and commenting means. I thought that prompt was showed only to new users?
Hello, My name is Conrad, and I was looking for a chat room like this. But how do I create an account? Or do I already have one, since I am able to type this?
Stack Exchange is so vast, and easy to get lost in.
@ConradR.SnyderII No you don't have an account here yet.
Just go to workplace.stackexchange.com, and click Join this community, then login as usual, you should be done.
Oh wait, it is not "Join this community", just "log in" on the top bar.
14:42
@MaskedMan Might as well accept your answer on that meta to confirm resolution.
@ConradR.SnyderII Welcome Conrad. As @MaskedMan said you are logged in with your Worldbuilding account. Users need to be registered and have 20 reputation on at least one site in the network to join any public chatroom.
To ask a question on the main site you'll have to follow MaskedMan's advice. If you wanted to ask something here feel free to do so.
If the topic is sensitive and you don't want it associated with your account and/or real name then you'll have to create a new account.
Note that this chatroom is persistent and publicly searchable.
15:25
@Lilienthal I tried, but apparently *twood made some stupid rule ages ago that I need to wait for 2 days, in order to ... guess what ... avoid "gaming the system".
@ConradR.SnyderII In addition to what Lilienthal (who, by the way, is one of our community elected moderators here) said, you can ask a question on workplace.stackexchange.com without registration as well. If you change your mind later, you can merge those accounts, but I guess that's too much info dump to start with, we will help you with that if/when you need it.
16:22
Honestly, I have to wonder if people are being intentionally dense.
@IDrinkandIKnowThings This question has nothing to do with the app design. You could just replace the app with an old-fashioned paper and pen bookkeeping of reward points, and the issue remains the same. "How can I prevent my employee from gaming the system by making fake entries?" There is not even any computer network involved in that case, so no network security or programming involved either. — Masked Man 1 min ago
The question was edited specifically to focus on the "how can a boss ensure that an employee cannot game the system?" part, but people keep raising issues about network security, programming, app design, and other strange things.
hi
@MaskedMan I think a few people here have a har.... er, prejudice against new posters.
Hi Alban
@Alban ^^^^
Oh damn, this sound scared me
:D
16:38
hi
So, on what themes you talking in this room?
@eipi hi
@eipi hi
@Alban anything workplace or site related
hi @Alban, @RichardU
how are you?
Alles Gut!
im good
16:42
is that dutch?
or german?
@Epi, German
oh, ok. I'm well too :)
LOL! Good to hear it.
We were worried about you a little bit
@eipi glad to hear that your turd of a coworker got his walking papers.
A few of us were ready to fly out to CA to help you.
Hello
or help him down a few flights of stairs.
Hi @Magisch how goes it?
16:46
Medium well
vocational school today
in other words massive amateur hour
@RichardU I'm really thankful for everyone's support
english class there hurts my soul
with 2/3 of people unable to small talk in english
@Magisch Your English is better than many Americans' English
certainly didn't learn it from english class in vocational school
@Magisch one thing I find amusing about German is that the insults just don't translate well.
16:48
yeah
@Magisch Your English is eidetic.
Is there an answer around here that addresses what to say in an interview when you don't want to talk about your previous job?
@eipi a few tons of them, actually
I'm ponny
I'm looking, but I can't find an answer that fits my situation
16:50
just say the culture didn't fit you and you're looking for something that does.
generic boilerplate "I hate this job and want to move" without chatter or anything that could be construed as badmouthing
I just don't want to go into a whole story of what happened. It's also not really apropriate
Like i said
just say you realized you weren't a fit and are looking for something new
It's true and also terse enough
what if they ask why?
decline to comment
I want to a job interview today and they asked about my previous job and I just stumbled all over the question
I thought I was prepared but they asked probing questions about it and I just avoided the subject at all costs
16:55
I'm not a good advisor on professionality because I'm usually brutally honest in interviews
that's not recommended though
I don't really mind being honest, but I'm aware that it's not professional to go into some long, personal story in a job interview
@eipi I can help, I used to teach this.
@RichardU what advice do you have?
@eipi Like Magisch said, don't go into detail. They will probe, but you just go back to "It just wasn't a good fit". If they press, turn it back on them. "I'm sure you've had situations yourself where the conditions were not ideal".
OR... another way...
"I'm more interested in this great opportunity than dwelling on past employers".
or....
There are polite ways of telling people "None of your *** business"
17:00
"We've all had bad fits, I think it's unprofessional to disparage a past employer"
@Magisch maybe I need to learn a few
what richard said above
pretty good way of demonstrating you wont gossip off
@eipi or "It was a bad fit, but I can assure you it was not performance related"
I think the "I'm more interested in this great opportunity than dwelling on past employers". is good
@eipi ^^^^ and that is also an honest answer
17:01
In essence these "why are you leaving" questions are designed to find out two things: 1) If you're a pathologic job hopper, 2) if you will slack off old employers
never lie
If you demonstrate none you've answered the question as well as you could have.
^^^this
Is 3 years too short to be at a company?
is that job hopping?
@eipi no, not at all
that's PLENTY of time
a troublemaker or slacker doesn't last that longe
17:03
ok
@eipi don't let that bad experience shake your confidence.
the one before that was 4 years
so I think I'm ok in that regard
@eipi that wouldn't even get a second look from me.
no red flags at all
@eipi don't worry, you are solid
It's so weird, I think I'm ok after all this and then I go into this interview today and one of the people interviewing me has the same build as my (ex)coworker and I just about had a nervous breakdown
but it was my first job interview in a couple of years so I suppose this is how things go. next time I'll be more prepared
@eipi if you need to, do some practice interviews with a family member or friend
17:08
I usually am pretty confident but I think I'll have to
@eipi you've been through a pretty bad situation, so of course you're going to feel a bit off. You just need to practice what you're going to say, get into a positive mindset, and go get it! The proof that you can do it is that you already have in the past.
@eipi I'd better watch it, I'm in danger of losing my status as official figurehead of evil in this place.
@RichardU thanks. I'm definitely feeling a bit more confident with all your advice :)
official figurehead of evil ?
@eipi a little joke. I was recently compared to a comic book villain.
@eipi you'll do fine. You've got a good work history.
ok. Even the villians have some good in them somewhere :)
@eipi I'm often fairly aggressive when it comes to theory, so people are surprised that I can relate on a human level.
17:17
Both have their place, I think it's just a matter of finding balance
woah, you have lots of points. have you been on this site long?
@eipi about a year
@MaskedMan Ah yeah I always forget about that rule.
@Magisch Very very dangerous advice this.
@Lilienthal why?
It's almost always better to leave in some kernel of truth because otherwise people are going to start to suspect the worst.
It's one thing to try and dodge a question.
But declining to answer is a red flag to pretty much any question.
Especially considering it's such a common question, you're expected to have an answer prepared to that.
Check the main site, there are dozens of questions on this topic.
I thought I was prepared, but they probed a bit more than I was expecting
17:24
You can go for a generic answer but you have to be able to sell it well. "I'm looking for a new challenge" is not good.
"I wanted to move into [X] and [Y] which proved difficult with my current employer so seeing that this position involves ...." is much better.
Which is not to say that you need to twist every answer you have into "here's how this can work for you"
@eipi So let's practice, if you don't mind, 'Why did you decide to move on?'
the company wasn't a good fit for me anymore
Kaz
Kaz
@eipi I would be specific about the reason, and vague about the specifics.
A good interviewer will then ask a follow-up from a simple "What do you mean?" or "Can you clarify that?" to a more in-depth "What was it about the company / work that changed recently?"
Al the truthful things, like "the management made decisions I didn't agree with" etc are all things I can't say
A better answer would be "The position was evolving into more of a [support / paper pushing (but don't say that) / administrative] role and I wanted to stick with."
Do you have more reasons that you're willing to share (here in the chat that is)?
(Note that this chatroom is persistent and publicly searchable)
17:30
The real reason is that I don't trust my boss
I don't have respect for him
but I can't say that either
Don't trust him not to fire you or don't trust him to advance your career?
I don't trust him not to hire some other "friend"
which is unlikely
If it's the former and there are other reasons you can bring in (losing clients, failing projects, ...) the standard answer is "The company was going through a rough patch and I was worried that my job was no longer stable."
If it's the latter you can say "I wanted to grow more into my [specialist / manager] role but there wasn't any room for advancement."
I like that
Check the site in that case, I think we have a few questions relating to phrasing "I'm in a dead end job" in interviews.
17:33
I want to specialise in UVM/OVM and that was a direction the company wasn't interested in
which is true
Well there you go, that's an excellent reason, provided that the position you're applying for includes that.
That's the risk with focusing too much on a specific reason: it could be the case that the company hiring you isn't very into that either.
yeah, it's one of the reasons why i am applying
is it bad to say I don't want to be a manager?
Which is why you typically want to be clear on the scope of the job and how the hiring manager sees the role, his team and their future challenges.
Depends on how much experience you have.
1-3 it's fine, 3-5: should be ok, 5+? hmm..
I mean, the job isn't for a managerial role, but I have almost 8 years of experience now and management is on the horison for me
That it is.
Depends on your profile as well.
If you're headed to architect / specialist level or something similar.
You take on a guru role and highly-skilled developer.
17:36
I want them to know that I want to be, like that, the specialist
Trouble with that is that those guys often turn to freelance because of the nature of such work.
It's definitely possible though.
But that is something you'll have to talk over in the interview, and something to check in the job ads and during phone screens.
You want to figure out whether there's a managerial component to roles you're applying for.
I guess it's not all or nothing, either
there can be 10% management to a job
I suppose?
Saying "I don't want to manage" is difficult.
110
Q: What's the career path for a developer who doesn't like management?

Shady M. NajibIf you're developer (Senior or Lead Developer) and you'd rather stay with code/design than pursue a management career, what are the available career paths at your company, or any you've heard of? How far can you go? Is it possible to continue being a geek until you bite the dust or is that too n...

I have been a manager before for some short-term projects and it went fine but i realised it wasn't for me
Might want to check those two articles out as well.
It depends on your profile and the team.
17:39
oh, that question is interesting
I suppose I have to figure out why I don't like managing
like the answer says
Even domain specialists are typically expected to work with people. They may not be in charge of managing entire teams but they will usually be expected to share knowledge and be a spokesperson/POC.
And in some companies they actually will be expected to build a team under them.
But are you asking about managing people or managing projects?
I don't mind working with people or telling people what to do, even
Project management is a skill you're going to need to learn and grow in for pretty much any IT job I think.
I just, am bad at having a vision
If other people give me a vision
"get this done"
then, sure
I can do the details. I like details.
And if they tell you "Client X has a problem, I need you to sit down with their tech department and figure out what they need and how many people we'll need to get it done." ?
17:43
It'll take self control to not just do it all myself
haha
Estimates, analysis, resource management and so on all become gradually more important as you go up in your career.
Something to work on then. ;)
I suppose it depends on how well you know your team
their stengths
etc
that's really important
It does, but I'm talking more about whether you'd feel comfortable doing so.
It's something to talk about during an interview.
It is exposing a weakness, in a way, if it's not something you've done much.
there's comfortable, but then there's actually enjoying it
But it depends on the position you're applying for just how much of this is involved.
In consulting agencies you'd be doing a lot of this at 8 years exp.
For in-house that's much less the case.
You want to get aligned on that during the interview(s).
17:44
I'm currently doing in-house R&D
which is what I love
Remember: you're not there to sell yourself, you're there to figure out if both parties can come to a mutually beneficial arrangement.
I'm starting to feel like finding another fit for me is going to be hard
a lot of these places are like consulting agencies
It's always tricky to navigate.
Best advice I can give is to do your due diligence in your interviews and getting a firm idea of what the day-to-day will be like and how the hiring manager sees the role.
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind
I'll have to think about how much managing I'll be happy with. I suppose I'll have to concede some time to it
It's something you can usually ask your manager about as well. Plenty of larger companies have some kind of management training but managers should at least be willing to guide people new to management if they ask about it.
(Goes for both types of management as well)
Signing off chat for now, ping me if you need me.
17:52
ok. thanks for your help
18:10
@eipi If they keep press more than twice into why you left the previous job after you clearly indicate that you don't want to go into the details, it strongly suggests that this current job you are interviewing for may not be a good fit either.
18:31
@MaskedMan that's a good point
I think I need to practise being clear. Today I fumbled around a bit and I don't think that helped
hi @BradC, I see you're here too. how are you?
18:46
@eipi you may want to pick up a copy of the book "Brag. How to toot your own horn without blowing it"
mind if I ask a different question that I'm not sure how to phrase as a real one?
real meaning a postable one
Is there a non passive aggressive way to cancel a 1 on 1 meeting with a former boss at my company where my old role ended acrimoniously?
@fordprefect yes, be active in your aggression.
so just cancel the meeting?
I feel like that looks bad as a former subordinate
19:02
Hey, @eipi. Going well. So did your last interview already tell you no? Sometimes I've been surprised after what I felt wasn't a great interview.
@fordprefect Why do you still have a meeting? A current open/ongoing project?
/shrug?
I don't have a good answer for you... I think my old manager still wants to have authority over me
but he's not still your manager?
@RichardU do you think I blow my own horn too much?
Is there a subject for the meeting? I'd probably ask your new manager what its about, or if you can cancel.
the subject was a check in that happened weekly
19:05
@BradC haven't heard back from them. Maybe you're right, I have a habit of overanalyzing and picking to pieces everything I say afterwards
@eipi no, not at all, it just teaches you the proper way to tout your skills
my new manager has said "you're not in that department any more. Any blurring of that has been a detriment to all involved"
@fordprefect Ah, so this is the carryover of a previously scheduled recurring check-in? Yeah, if you no longer report to him, then a non-project related meeting doesn't make much sense. Certainly not a manager-subordinate style "let's keep updated on your ongoing tasks"
yeah I am just concerned cancelling it will be viewed as passive aggressive
So just decline the ongoing meeting in Outlook to get it off the calendar. He probably will shrug and not respond
19:07
@fordprefect simply say "no" and let your new manager know what the old guy is trying to pull
what @BradC said.
if you guys think that's ok then cool
@RichardU oh, I see. I'll give it a look. I was raised that any kind of self touting is bad
probably being oversensitive
@eipi I was raised the same way. It's not the case when you're interviewing. The book is excellent and teaches how to brag using "CAR" stories Challenge, Action, Result.
In all likelihood, your old manager doesn't actually think you need to meet either, it's just a leftover recurring meeting. Just think of it as "this meeting is no longer relevant, and I'm getting it off both our calendars". No need to even say anything in the decline.
19:08
You "brag" by telling people about a challenge you faced, the action you took, and the results.
@fordprefect Unless its a new meeting invite, in which case that would be pretty weird
@eipi This is why I always go for practice interviews to dummy companies. Early in my career, I once forgot to carry a copy of my resume, but thankfully I wasn't really interested in joining that company anyway, so that didn't matter, and I thus remembered to carry my resume to the next interview that I was interested in.
cool thanks guys/girls
@RichardU I like that technique because I find it easy to stick to the facts
Will definitely look at the book
@BradC @RichardU
19:12
I go to at least 3 dummy interviews each time before going to the "real" ones. That helps me iron out any flaws and get into the groove.
@eipi yep, if you stick to the facts, you don't need a good memory.
@eipi plus, put it in the form of a story, and again, it's easy to remember. Tell it like you're an old uncle telling the same joke for the 100th time.
Some people question the ethics of wasting other people's time this way, but I don't see it as much of a problem because these dummy companies are usually quite obnoxious, so their time is wasted even otherwise, and interviewing me might actually be a better use of their time, as they can hopefully learn to treat their employees and candidates better when they hear me.
@MaskedMan I suppose it depends on the industry you're in. Last time I was job hunting interviews were pretty hard to come by
Moreover people who complain about me wasting other people's time are usually not those "other people" and they dont offer me any job either so I just ignore their whining about ethics.
@eipi if you can't go to a real company, use a friend or family member, meet in a library and treat it like a real interview
19:18
@eipi getting interviews is never easy, especially as you go higher up in the ladder. Nonetheless having some sort of a dry run is always useful. If you cannot find a "real dummy" interview, get a trusted friend to interview you. It is important to get yourself into that "interview mode".
@MaskedMan great minds run in the same track, eh? ;)
@RichardU Of course! You and I tend to agree on most things. :)
@MaskedMan maybe I'll get lucky and have a few more interview opportunities this time. A couple of years ago my industry was pretty quiet and it took me a good 6 months to find a job
@eipi Don't worry, everything will be alright. Keep trying. :)
@eipi you keep banging your head against the wall until the wall comes down. I made it all the way back from being homeless, you can do this!
19:25
Aw, thanks guys. I will!
@eipi Whenever things go down, I always remember this quote: "sometimes things need to fall apart to make way for better things". I haven't had it as bad as Richard so far, but from the limited experiences that I have had, I have found it to be mostly true.
@eipi Also, as I used to teach my students, You are the exact same person you were BEFORE you started looking for a job.
I've been through worse stuff, im pretty sure I can handle whatever else comes my way :) thanks for all the support and encouragement
The end of last year was really brutal. My family was hit with two cancer diagnosis within 3 months of eachother
That, plus this whole coworker thing has really wrecked my life and things are finally looking up. I'm not walking around like a zombie anymore
...and it seems I killed the conversation. Sorry!
19:50
@eipi nah, you haven't killed anything, and believe me I can relate to hardship.
I once tried to sell my life story as a country music song, it was rejected for being too sad
20:35
@RoryAlsop Too bad you can't do that on a CD :/
20:45
@RichardU heh
Is it bad that I clicked on that hoping it was a video

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