The Water Cooler

enderland

01:08

@Patricia. this would bother me a lot if it happened here for the exact same reasons

The answer to this question is "it depends." Some companies and some managers have dramatically different expectations. Additionally, some positions simply have expectations for increased responsibility and worktime. There's really not an answer to this question. — enderland 8 mins ago

this might be the first time I've voted to close as "primarily opinion based" ever, but I think this question qualifies

jmac

01:48

@RhysW Strongly recommend not doing it. It only has 120 million speakers (and declining). It is only spoken in one country (Japan). And it's only real use is if you plan to live in Japan (if working with the Japanese, having a bilingual Japanese is far more useful than a bilingual non-Japanese). I vote for Portuguese, Spanish, Malay/Javanese, or Arabic.

@MichaelShaw Apologies for the bluntness. You accused me of not reading/understanding your statements. It is clear you don't understand what I've said but aren't holding yourself to the same standards. You think this is a debate (it isn't) and aren't focusing on things that will improve the quality of the site. If you answer a question without an answer to the question posed, I will flag it, as per the FAQ I linked. If you want to debate, this ain't the place for it (nor are the comments)

3

enderland

@jmac I want to debate. enderland goes and pouts

jmac

@enderland And I want some mint oreo cookie ice cream. We can't always have what we want.

enderland

@jmac I just had ice cream. Haters gonna hate

also @jma vote to close this one - workplace.stackexchange.com/q/19421/2322

jmac

02:05

@enderland No debate from me! Seconded.

jmort253

02:19

@Patricia. Those are indeed excellent questions you referenced. From what I've seen, communities outside of Stack Exchange tend to be a lot less disciplined when it comes to shutting down low quality content. So it will be an interesting experiment to see the results of splitting away from the Stack Exchange community over the long haul.

What's also interesting to note is that the OnStartups community started as a Stack Exchange 1.0 site, run by outside administrators, and that's where the content ended was with another outside entity.

I shouldn't pass any judgement yet; it's too early to really conclude anything, but I wish OnStartups the best. There is definitely a lot of good content there, enough to where I personally scraped some of it before Stack Exchange shut down the site. :D

jmort253

02:38

What do we think about this post as a community?

3

Q: Is it unprofessional to look for other work after a salary increase has been denied?

Simply as the question asks. I have been working at the same company for just over a year and I made a request for a salary increase, this is because my pay isn't covering my bills any more. It was denied. Would it be unprofessional or unreasonable to now start looking for work elsewhere? To cla...

It's an older one, just FYI

jmort253

On this post, there's a flag regarding a comment cleanup. I typically don't treat comments on answers as harshly as on questions since they don't seem to prevent answers but do provide some context.

Since the answer is accepted and upvoted, and some folks had concerns about the answer, it seems the comments give the post some context to better help a future reader make a judgement call.

25

A: Going around a recruiter who submits unsolicited candidates

Ignore the fact that the recruiter sent you the unsolicited lead. Proceed as you would if you discovered the candidate yourself. You have no business relationship with them and therefore you don't owe anything to anyone. Double check the above with your company's HR/Lawyer to be on the safe side...

I'm wondering, is there anything of value in those comments. Are they worth keeping? Should some of that be edited into the answer? Should we just remove them?

jmort253

03:10

11 hours ago, by Jin

we may launch the site today! (3-4pm EST)

gnat

06:15

@jmort253 question looks more or less okay to me: upon a closer inspection it failed to trigger a close vote reaction :)

jmort253

06:26

@gnat I good answer, two negatively scored answers, and a deleted answer.

That just raised a red flag in my mind.

Hey Margaret, welcome to The Workplace. Have you done any Google searches on quitting your job? I suggest you start with a quick search. Just take 5 or so minutes to read an article or two. That might lead to you editing this into a deeper question, which means we can provide more value to you. Give that a shot, then bring back what you learn to this post. Hope this helps. :) — jmort253 45 secs ago

I'm experimenting with seeing if it helps to show folks that doing their own research doesn't just make for a better question but also provides more value to them on a much deeper level.

gnat

07:04

5

Q: Should we have an "agony aunt" tag?

I can't help feeling that some of the questions on the site are opportunities to offload to a listening pair of ears (or thousands of pairs of ears as the case may be). I'm thinking in particular of this question: Should I take leave before office function? As Oded says in his comments, and I d...

discussion on-topic-definition tags

jmort253

@gnat Could be.

But usually the rants are a little less well written. The askers always sound desperate and breathless, if you know what I mean.

The rants are also really really long, one sided, with no objectivity or personal responsibility.

They usually also sound like really "entitled" people, if that makes sense. :)

Not saying it's not a rant. It just isn't typical...

The rants are also usually pretty entertaining, from a psychoanalytical perspective.

Like, how can you possibly think that everyone else around you sucks, but you're awesome.

gnat

07:26

@jmort253 this part reads an agony to me: "Honestly I'm not cut out for the job. The Manager made me cry yesterday after yelling at me when I messed up an order. I have no prior experience in this field and am being expected to have everything memorized after only working three days?" I can imagine a reasonable question after de-agonizing it somehow; otherwise I think it will rather strongly attract garbage answers "my-condolences", "your-manager-sucks" etc

jmort253

@gnat Any ideas on de-agonizing it? :D

That's nice. I like that phrase... de-agonize.

2

You have to admit though, we've seen some pretty crazy rants in our time... our community is no stranger to the breathless rant.

In this case, it seems like context. I'm not cut out for the job, and want to leave in a way where this won't be a bad mark on my record.

Honestly, I can relate. I've had jobs that weren't my cup of tea.

that in itself doesn't really make it a rant.

I'm gonna edit that in though.. the part about it not leaving a bad mark... because that makes it more valuable.... I'll also put a pre-emptive post notice on it.

Not gonna close it, but let's take a few precautions.

gnat

@jmort253 right, that's why I didn't edit it out yet. There's a mix of a rant and important context, takes time to figure how to unwind that

jmort253

She seems honest... Hey look, this job just isn't for me... no one's fault. I can't keep up.

I feel like she at least acknowledges some of the responsibility.

I can respect that.

Folks like that are teachable.

RhysW

08:25

@Patricia. Yeah, I was part of that community, albeit only for the last month or so of its existence. Shame it was closed, had some good people there who knew their stuff

@jmort253 I like those types of folks

@jmac Nice answer to my question, I wonder now how a company might look that did judge performance based on the opinions of those below as well as above.

jmort253

me too

gnat

7 answers in 3 hours, wow. With a little bit more of upvotes, this SO question seems to have a good chance to become hot: stackoverflow.com/questions/21871104/…

RhysW

@gnat The workplace questions that go hot tend to have 'scandalous' titles, wonder if we could apply this knoweldge to SO titles

@jmort253 pasted my own edits over the top to change the title, hopefully less misled people that think its just a rant

jmort253

08:44

OMG its so terible my boss is such a kerk and the ppl i work with are lazy i cant stand them i asked my boss for tiem off and he gaveit to bob isntead of me i work very hard and he doesnt this really sux and ive been feelign very said and frustrated and dont okw what to do plz somebody help me tell me whut to do

RhysW

@jmort253 quit

jmort253

Margaret, if you are by chance reading this chat, we're not making fun of you. We've literally seen posts that look just like what I wrote.......

no lie.

RhysW

It's bad that you aren't wrong

Chase

Just got a job rejection email at almost 1 in the morning. That's a first.

jmort253

Sounds like the recruiters are working late.

RhysW

08:49

@Chase Wow, bit of an odd time, unless they sent it earlier and had mail server problems

jmort253

Or they have a rejection letter bot.

What kind of work are you applying for @Chase?

Chase

Probably a bot.

gnat

@RhysW I was thinking of it. :) Sure could be efficient trick, but feels a bit slippery. I am rather thinking in opposite direction - edits to de-dramatize titles of Workplace questions that hit the hot list. I am using this approach at Programmers for a few months now, results look promising (lemmings dislike long accurate titles). the only trouble is to have good editor around when question gets hit, this can happen in any moment...

Chase

@jmort253 Software engineering internships.

jmort253

Right on.

You in Oregon?

Chase

08:50

Yep.

jmort253

cool

RhysW

@gnat Yeah having editors around is a big plus, the title can have a huge impact on a question before people even read the body

jmort253

@gnat You hit the nail in the head. Titles should be catchy, but not inflammatory.

The interest the titles draw should be natural.

Titles set the tone.

It's like a first impression.

RhysW

@jmort253 not just catchy, but searchable, I try to make them use terminology that most other people will use when searching

jmort253

SEO

Chase

08:54

A lot of questions here are emotional charged, so I understand why it's hard to stay neutral. I usually search by tags anyway.

RhysW

@Chase for people that already know about the site, tag searching is useful, what i try to do is make our questions easy to find for peple who face that problem who dont even know our site exists

jmort253

Nothing wrong with emotion. But questions that seem.... immature... just don't set a good tone for the type of site we've built.

gnat

@jmort253 yeah. I think I first learned about titles importance in this question. Number of attempts at lemming answers dropped dramatically after changing the title from "Why did Git become so popular?" to "Why is the sudden increase in number of Git submitters on Debian popcon graph in 2010-01?"

Chase

@RhysW Good idea. I rarely see Workplace results on Google.

RhysW

@Chase yeah it can be quite hard to reword the titles and bodies to be easy to find, were gettingthere though

jmort253

09:04

Well, I can't wait for the new design any longer... gotta go sleep.... later all.

RhysW

@jmort253 we almost had it yesterday, ok cya later!

Chase

@RhysW What do you try to include? More specific keywords, mostly?

RhysW

09:17

@Chase A combination of specific and general. I try to include words that are specific to the problem, but that are what people with that issue will generally use when searching. I.e 'What do I' and 'How do I' are common from people searching for solutions to a personal problem, so if the problem is one of personal nature i try to include one of those phrases

Chase

@RhysW Interesting. I know it's generally bad practice to phrase my search engine queries as grammatically correct questions, but as I use Google Now more and more, I've noticed my queries moving to that direction.

RhysW

@Chase My queries have always been sentences that explain what i want, and ive never had to go more than page 1 to find a useful resource, i didnt realise until about a year ago that not everyone searched like that, got me a lot of weird looks from those who googled just a few related words

Chase

@RhysW Yeah, Google has been around for longer than I've been able to write, so I guess it was indoctrinated pretty early in my life. But whatever works works, right?

RhysW

Definitely, whats funny is people who search differently, write their answers differently, so you end up with different groups who all share knowledge just because of the way they search

Chase

Huh. I guess there's a lot of linguistic variation I never really think about.

jmac

10:32

@RhysW There are plenty of companies that do some variation of this. They are still a minority. I'm not sure it's necessarily better in all situations, or that it results in better outcomes for the company, but it probably feels nice to work in. There are plenty of companies that don't do this as policy, but that have managers that feel that way too.

RhysW

@jmac ♨!

yeah i imagine a lot of companies try different things, i imagine its just a different set of problems to overcome

jmac

@RhysW ♨ right back at you. Have you ever read the netflix HR document? It's pretty interesting

RhysW

@jmac no? got a link?

jmac

slideshare.net/reed2001/culture-1798664

RhysW

side note i almost applied for a job at netflix

CMW

10:41

@RhysW on my pixelated display this looks like you're throwing excement at each other

jmac

@RhysW love the edit

RhysW

@jmac i say almost had because i know i would have got it if i applied :P

jmac

You should have applied. You would have if you'd read that presentation first!

RhysW

Ha, i applied for my curent job instead as there were more learning opportunities for me

jmac

read said document ;)

I need to figure out how to log the results of a javascript thing to a text file.

RhysW

10:44

ooh, that might not work

jmac

It may not?

Really?

RhysW

fairly sure browsers are sandboxed to not allow them to put files on and off of the machine as they feel like

jmac

Why the Hell is technology so advanced, yet oh-so-stupid.

RhysW

to prevent virus' ect

jmac

Ah, I'm using phantom.js

Or I will.

That's the plan.

I just need to save the result of my scraping.

I will check with phantom.js then

RhysW

10:45

7

Q: PhantomJS / Javascript: write to file instead of to console

From PhantomJS, how do I write to a log instead of to the console? In the examples https://github.com/ariya/phantomjs/wiki/Examples, it always (in the ones I have looked at) says something like: console.log('some stuff I wrote'); This is not so useful.

javascript phantomjs

CMW

you could also alway store all the output in a variable and replace the current HTML document in your browser with the result

that way it will all be displayed on screen in the end and you can easily save it

jmac

@RhysW Using SO is cheating.

RhysW

@jmac :P thats like saying revising for an exam is cheating

jmac

@CMW phantom.js is a 'headless browser' or something. The point is I am going to visit about 400 pages and log a bunch of data from each of them to a file.

@RhysW Revising an exam IS cheating.

RhysW

revising AN exam is, revising FOR an exam is not

CMW

10:47

@jmac Ah, I missed the part about phantom

jmac

@RhysW You must mean reviewing, no?

Or is this a Britishism that doesn't properly translate...

RhysW

probably non translatable britishism then

jmac

I think you're just 'ropey' and using a 'rubbish' excuse to cover over what isn't English. 'Innit?'

RhysW

revising, is, for example, when you read up books and your notes ect before an exam, reviewing is when you have given answers and are looking over them to see where you went wrong ect

jmac

@RhysW studying then. We call it studying. Why would it be revising? What are you revising?

RhysW

10:50

revising your notes, and your mock exam

jmac

Oh, Google would seem to agree with you with the might brit attached.

google.co.jp/search?q=define+revise

RhysW

not to revise (as in to change)

jmac

Even Google thinks you're so British it must be mentioned and abbreviated slightly.

RhysW

:/

you applied to be CM didnt you jmac?

jmac

11:02

@RhysW and failed.

RhysW

@jmac only on one count of community building! thats basically code for 'become a mod for a while'

jmac

@RhysW I have no idea what the real reason was. It could be a lack of community building, or it could be the fact that my day job has absolutely nothing to do with IT, the net, or software in general. I don't really know.

(that's code for dinner-time, be back later)

RhysW

so? eliminate them one by one! first the community building, i think we can help you out there :P

haha see you in a bit

CMW

@jmac bon apetit

RhysW

hey cmw!

CMW

11:14

hey :)

RhysW

♨!

CMW

!♨

RhysW

:D are you using that as a way to say 'not bath'? :D

CMW

I was thinking "no shit"

:D

RhysW

oh :P

CMW

11:17

It does look like a tiny steamy pile

RhysW

maybe a little

@CMW will probably accept your answer later today, its a good answer (Y)

CMW

Thanks :) happy to help

RhysW

pointing out actual flaws that are arising because of his choices will probably speak a lot better than hypothetical situations

thats what i gathered from your answer anyway

CMW

Not only pointing those out, but detailing how those threaten his position with his superiors

RhysW

Side note, not sure if we have one of these or not but a good Q&A that answers the 'When should I negotiate and Why' question would be really useful to point lots of dupes at

CMW

11:26

It's like keeping a kitchen clean for health department visits. As long as they focus on kitchen and fridge, it's perfectly fine for the manager to have everything dirty thrown into the basement. But when they start focussing on basement, too, that manager is in a world of hurt, until every last bit of everything everywhere will be clean.

because once they've found one thing that's wrong, everything he does will be under scrutiny

@RhysW Yes, there would be tons of candidates

maybe we can condense some answers of several of those questions into one superquestion?

is that possible?

does community management even want stuff like that?

RhysW

0

Q: Would a comprehensive 'When should i negotiate and why' question benefit the workplace?

We get a number of questions like this which basically boil down to the asker not knowing what to negotiate or when to negotiate it. If we had a comprehensive question and answer that detailed when it's good to negotiate and why it's good to negotiate these things, would this be on topic and be...

discussion

lets find out!

@CMW true, will keep that in mind

Chase

Oh hey, I forgot I had this tab open. Beer, math homework, multiple mointors, and the fact that it's 3:30am doesn't mix, apparently :P

CMW

@Chase It'll at least make for a very weird mix :)

RhysW

haha, they mix, just not too well apparently!

CMW

haha

RhysW

11:38

hmm, not fond of this next piece of code, a 28 case switch statement in a foreach

Chase

True! Beer with homework is still a new thing for me. As it turns out, I have ridiculously strong opinions about minute textbook problems while under the influence.

RhysW

@Chase welcome to my world even when sober! :P

Chase

@RhysW Oh wow. Who wrote that monster?

RhysW

@Chase me in about 5 mins time

unless i think of an alternative

right, brb, lunch break

Chase

Funny example I saw on reddit yesterday:

for (int i = 0 ; i < 4 ; i++)
{
switch(i)
{
case 0:
// some statements
break;
case 1:
// some more statements
break;
case 2:
// some other statements
break;
case 3:
// another set of statements
break;
default:
Console.WriteLine("ERROR");
break;
}
}

Uh oh, I can't format whitespace on this thing?

CMW

11:59

odd

RhysW

@Chase well thats, interesting

CMW

@RhysW Inheritance

or pattern-matching

Decorator pattern

:D

(buzzword bingo)

Chase

The only way you could write something that ridiculous is if you didn't understand what switches are.

Seriously, way too many of my classmates tend to overcomplicate crap like that. If I want to impress someone, I aim for efficiency and simplicity.

CMW

@Chase Actually, if you left out the code in that example and just put the omitted statements as a sequence it would have the exact same effect

unless you overload the increment operator

which I'm not sure is possible in C or Java

Chase

Exactly.

enderland

12:35

You feel completely burned out because you have spent years chasing money as the only thing out of life and your career, while simultaneously avoiding all work. You need a therapist, not career advice. If you can't find work it's probably because you come across in interviews the same way you do here - lazy, greedy, and ultimately not interested in actually working. — enderland 1 min ago

this question is absurd

RhysW

@enderland ouch! just reading that (without context, which is what ive done) leads me to wonder just what the question is

@enderland oh.my.god

i have no words to describe what i just read

enderland

it's worse than the brainsizing one, lol

Hugo Rocha

brainsizing

oh my

the memories

it hurts

oh God why

morning, btw

enderland

the brainsizing one actually had a good question

this one is just "why is the world so unfair"

RhysW

the devotion solely to money and nothing else is...odd

Hugo Rocha

12:40

"And nothing else matters...."

brb, gonna listen to this song a bit

RhysW

@enderland its worse than that

grateful to oded, spotting it and closing it where it stood

enderland

12:59

workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/19431/…

oi

RhysW

13:11

if putting food on the table for himself holds no meaning then there is nothing we can offer him

wants all the rewards with none of the work and to be honest i'm not going to go out of my way to teach someone who so arrogantly refuses to be taught

jmac

13:22

@enderland Wow.

Anything in life requires effort and demonstrating you can provide value. That applies to startups, finance, and any other job. Until you prove you can create value (education does not create value by itself) you will not get the responsibility you crave. Convinced you will succeed as a manager? Start a business. But it won't be one hour work days at the start. Want a steady paycheck? Start at the bottom, put in the effort, and show you can provide value. Or buy lottery tickets and pray. Your choice. — jmac 7 secs ago

CMW

14:11

This one's a gem too:

0

Q: Is it offensive to say "There is still a room for improvement" in this work

I consider that it is not polite, or not correct, to say to someone that the work he has done is not good enough. It will not motivate him to improve, and it has a negative aspect I want to avoid. So, focusing on a better move, I would say "There is still a room for improvement". But, I heard it...

professionalism

prototype of asking for opinions

enderland

@jmac I don't really know if this is salvageable into a "real" question

CMW

because it does so, literally

RhysW

@jmac im totally writing up that question into a blog post, and using this comment as part of what life is actually like

side note, that question can now have delete votes placed on it

enderland

you can have a lot of different things in life, freedom, money, flexibility, lots of toys. it's just impossible for most all of us to have all of them.

The earlier you learn this in life the better off you will be. It seems that guy just never has learned that.

I'm very thankful I've learned this as early as I have

RhysW

dunno about you lot but id rather not have that carcass polluting the water supply

enderland

14:40

in The Whiteboard, 4 mins ago, by GlenH7

You guys need a meta question to the tune of "Why was my indulgent, self-entitled whinging rant insta-seleted?"

RhysW

15:15

@enderland we have one of those dont we?

enderland

15:33

@RhysW no idea

RhysW

@Chad nice edit to this quesiton btw workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/19433/…

Jim G.

@enderland Wow. And I thought you were a youngster!

enderland

@JimG. all a matter of perspective ;)

Jim G.

@enderland True.

enderland

15 is old for someone who's 12

in unrelated news. Microsoft Access is the WORST for development, seriously if I knew it was going to be this bad I would have learned C# or something entirely different

RhysW

15:59

@enderland yeah i could have told you that and saved you the pain

Chad

16:17

@RhysW thanks

@CMW And of how it can be fairly easily reworked to remove the request for opinions and into a constructive good subjective question

Chad

16:45

@RhysW - I think that the canonical when should I negotiate question would be of value

gnat

17:27

-2

Q: On Hold policy for sites that are PRIMARILY opinion based

The Workplace seems like one example of a site that is primarily asking opinion bases questions: "way to professionaly quit a job?", etc. I noticed that a lot of questions are getting flagged as on-hold in that site. Why? These are not questions with clear concise answers like "Why does this f...

discussion on-hold

MSO discussion about us, consider chiming in

enderland

17:58

0

A: On Hold policy for sites that are PRIMARILY opinion based

I noticed that a lot of questions are getting flagged as on-hold in that site. Why? We get people asking "Dear Workplace, what should I do?" and who come without actual problems of any sort. Many of the questions which get closed are questions which at root cause are not actually questions...

Chad

3

Q: Got a job offer, made a counter offer and they rescinded the offer. What to do?

I was offered a job in healthcare for $X + benefits. The pay is less when compared to my current job, but I wanted to move to be closer to family. I didn't want to leave money on the table so I made a counter offer to increase the pay stating high cost of living in the new city and my current sal...

new-job job-offer

This question already has several bad answer and is basically a which job should I take question. I have protected it bu tI think it should be closed

jmort253

18:18

@Chad I went ahead and closed it as primarily opinion based.

Chad

@jmort253 Thanks

jmort253

21:09

0

Q: Manager's question

I have often asked developers to choose what work they would prefer to work on. Not everyone always gets everything they want of course. We all know the whole basket of work has to get done. My thinking has always been that we all know everyone prefers to work on certain parts, and that other ...

management

I did a pre-emptive close on this one as it looked like there'd be a lot of speculation. If anyone thinks they can edit it to get it reopened, please give it a shot.

Chad

21:20

@jmort253 I can not think of a way. The OP does not really have a problem since the method he is using works for him. Hard to make a constructive question when there is no problem to solve.

Chad

21:32

@Jmac I'd say we aren't challenging ourselves accepting good (but obscure) questions. - Another gem...

jmort253

22:26

@Angelo - The idea is to come to the site with enough information to limit the need for speculation or back-and-forth extended discussion. A search for some initial information on the net will lead to more detailed questions, which makes this post even more valuable to us as a community dedicated to the long tail problems of the workplace. Hope this helps clarify. — jmort253 56 secs ago

CMW

22:48

this is one of the most awesome questions I've read so far:

44

Q: I deleted /bin/rm. How do I recover it?

Just for fun, I thought I would use this command on my Raspberry PI running Raspbian: sudo rm -f /bin/rm I thought I could just reinstall coreutils: I was wrong! apt-get install --reinstall coreutils gives an error from dpkg, saying it couldn't remove the package. Compiling from source doesn'...

command-line rm raspbian

Michael Shaw

23:41

@Chad: Thanks for the feedback from yesterday. I didn't see anything in the question that suggested Actually it is a requirement being forced upon the OP by his management as a result of poor performance of the team..., was that an assumption, or did I miss something?

@Chad: The "stopped beating your wife yet" question was meant to be an illustration/support for my literal/implied distinction, not to be a direct analogy. I had considered rewriting it to clarify, but without a clear idea of what's unclear I'm probably not going to end up doing that.

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