last day (15 days later) » 

03:02
room topic changed to Do saving throw based spells that do damage count as attacks?: Do saving throws count as an attack for spells? [dnd-5e]
There we go
Thanks for the info Dale.
No worries
How do I compress the chat http link so that it only appears as a word instead?
I'll go on record as saying that I agree with your interpretation 100% - Attack roll = attack, no attack roll != attack.
I don't think you can do that in a comment
Ah ok
Yeah it makes sense in the book too. The only things that have attack rolls generally don't have a save
So a rogue being able to save makes sense with a trait called uncanny dodge
As for AOE, it used to bug me in 3.5 that rogues could tumble for 0 damage from an AoE
There is an exception to the save rule, Melf's Acid Arrow
I will take a small issue with one thing you said; D&D provides no limits on what you can do - it inherently a system about rulings by the DM informed by the rules; the primacy is specifically given to the DM (in consultation with the group).
03:06
It's interesting enough to jump in chat.
Honestly, if we had to jump to rule zero every time, this entire forum would be nothing but that
I think rule zero is always a given, am I wrong for assuming that?
Logic truth tables, dude: this is an if-then statement. If the premise is false, the statement still stands whether the conclusion is true or false. ie "if you are not making an attack roll, you are not making an attack" and "if you are not making an attack roll, you are still making an attack" could both be true...
in other words, it's unclear. This rule only tells you when you can prove something is an attack. It does not prove when something isn't an attack. You're probably right on intent, but it's written differently.
It's not unclear. That's why it says it's simple. If you're rolling, you're making an attack. That's it.
It couldn't actually be any more clear than that.
Correct.
No, but to quote you "D&D does not cover what you can "NOT" do. It only covers what you CAN do." The danger is if you think that way then players and DMs will limit themselves to what the rules allow - not use their imagination and then see what rules they can make applicable.
03:09
No, it doesn't. Because the very first rule of D&D is that it's a co-written story between the players and DM. That's Rule Zero. If the DM says so, and the player's agree, it's legal. You can have lightsabers if you want, so long as everybody agrees.
Nanban, I accept your logical premise that if does not imply if not but ... the rulebooks are in English, not Boolean logic.
I get the impression, but haven't seen it stated, that the RAW tag automatically prepends "Aside from Rule Zero" to every sentence.
This forum, and the books, are for rulings, not hypothetical homebrews. Unless somebody is asking for house rules, then we answer questions very literally from the book.
Dale, by that logic, let's just make everything Rule 0. I'm sorry, that's silly.
I mean actually it's not.
Everything IS Rule 0.
Yes, you are correct. RAW in the context of these forums, is to provide people with concrete answers to questions that may arise during rule lawyering scenarios. When you have multiple players arguing, a forum like this can be arbitrated.
*Can act as arbitrator.
03:12
Hand on, I have 2 trains of argument going here and I need to clearly separate them
LOL no worries.
Let me try writing less like a dick, because I'm REALLY REALLY good at that haha
I'm fine with it. I find being blunt saves florid wording. I'm military, it takes more than text to hurt my feelings.
This has nothing to do with Rule 0.The rules are predicated on a specific beats general philosophy, (
03:13
Precisely
So, here we have a general rule Attack Roll -> Attack
In formal logic this does not mean NO Attack Roll -> NO Attack but in common English usage it does and in the semantics of that whole section of the book that is the clear intent.
Absolutely disagree.
Can't even see how you get there.
Even though I'm pretty sure you're right on intent.
Making an Attack

Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.
There's the specific wording
Making an attack roll and part of a spell.....
Yep
03:16
OK. Kinda see it.
And making an attack roll is inherent in weapon usage as well
What it constitutes as an "attack" could be called "directly targetting with casting"
They couldn't use that either though, because lots of spells target something, but do not use an attack roll
Right, Magic Missile, or traps.
Or Charm Person
03:18
Or fireball, spike growth, fire wall, power word kill, spiritual weapon, etc, etc, etc
Yeah but a lot of those target an area
Yep
They get their own saving throw for that
So uncanny dodge doesn't play into it
Also, Spiritual Weapon is one that does use an attack roll
Not the spell, just the weapon itself.
lol
I was being facetious
OK. Uncanny Dodge could be house ruled to give some bonus to save vs area effect spells, but that'd fall square into house rule land. Kinda outside the question.
I think I get it.
03:20
Very much so. Magic missile wouldn't be avoided by it either. In fact, you can't ever miss with Magic Missile.
Also, there are specific places where there is an attack without an attack roll: Shoving and Grappling - uncanny dodge would work there and I can see why
Which is bullshit but has been since redbox.
Not really, MM isn't overtly powerful
And it's a level 1 spell, so it does burn spell slots
I guess MM is like cartoon missiles. They hover and ask each other questions, then figure out you dove behind the table.
I mean... it IS magic after all!
Really? Show me anyone who has played an arcane spellcaster without it? If its a must have its overpowered but you can't argue with tradition
03:22
I almost never take it
I prefer utility with my low level spells and group buffs. The real power comes at level 5
"If you are making an attack roll, you are making an attack" aids with the understanding of the integral pieces of an attack. On its own, it's rather lacking. You'll really want to walk a person through it showing them that the general rule shows you have an attack roll. Then show grappling as an example of a specific that would break the general.
Grappling is an attack
It falls under attack actions, and as a bonus prevents the target from moving
That's what I did in my answer to the question
It also specifically says it is a special melee attack
Not every attack deals damage. You can shove a target out a window. You clearly attacked it, but didn't hurt it. The sudden stop at the bottom will though.
Right. I'm referring to Dale above mentioning Grapple is an attack without an attack roll.
03:23
Correct. It's an opposed strength roll instead.
OK, I think I'm done here
Be seeing you
Well to be more specific, it's Strength (Athletics) vs Strength (Athletics) or Dex (Acrobatics)
You know Frank (Frank? Lino?), what may give a distinct answer...
03:25
Lino is my first name
AH thanks
Wait what?
Uncanny dodge is absolute bullshit.
You don't just DO things in RPGs, you roll! What is this, a board game??
You can only do it once. It's a reaction
5e got rid of the infinite save bullshit. As well as the infinite opportunity attacks.
Hadn't played since 2e
3e wanted to become GURPS, 4e wanted to become WoW. 5e actually feels like we're finally getting the edition that comes after 2e
03:28
5e is really nice
A lot of emphasis on role play, not rule lawyering
In addition, they simplified everything and made stats a lot more useful
All the lessons of the last 20 years of RPGs.
Now if only I could wake people up to what the word surprised means......
lol
Anyway, was going to say, a distinct answer might point out what Uncanny Dodge doesn't do, but damn it's pretty all-encompassing. So its limitations have to be defined by what defines attack.
Anytime somebody makes a roll to hit, uncanny dodge can be used
I mean, once per your turn. You still only have 1 reaction
Maybe there's something around 5th level that does something analogous with similar restriction, but that'd be more of a book dive than I'd care to do. Wouldn't add a whole lot to the understanding either, but might be convincing to the recalcitrant
03:32
Uncanny Dodge is 5th level
Evasion is 7th
Right.
I mean for another class.
Anytime you make a save, you take half damage on fail, and none on success
THat's the good one
Anyways, it's 11:30, and I have work tomorrow
Take it easy, and good night.
Thanks!
You too
 
14 hours later…
17:11
@LinoFrankCiaralli have the word in square brackets, followed by the link in parentheses.
@NanbanJim I'm no moderator, but I remind you that everything you write on this site is public domain and google searchable. It would be considerate to refrain from "bad words", thank you.

last day (15 days later) »