@arda I'm not sure you can question senshin into a corner and make him do what you want, but it might annoy him greatly and result into him being less active on the site, and that would be bad for everyone

I get what you're trying to do but idk if this is the way to do it

ids are a difficult topic for a lot and pressing somebody against it might not be the best idea

@Hakase I'm not trying to do anything

If another person pops up and says stuff that needs questions, then I will ask the same questions to them

maybe I'm overthinking and it's all fine, idk

Maybe I went overboard and it's not fine, idk

meh, off to sleep

I only posted by comment regarding that perceived attitude coz Frosty isn't happy about it

personally I think working against allowing ids has always been the best course of action

I don't mind anyone saying it was either best for the site or for the users

it was best for both imo

@Hakase out of my tons of comments, one supports that

I think I might take back my starred comment there

if senshin was here, there wouldn't be this misunderstanding

I checked election room before continuing if he ever joined so I'd ping him and continue there

he never joined

← 17 messages moved from Maid Café (メイド喫茶)

So senshin, hi if you dropped by. I agree that I went a bit hard there and I'm sorry.

I had some concerns that you answered and I didn't think that off as a good answer, but well, asking for more details is wrong. That was what you chose to say and I shouldn't have asked more.

I think that I didn't form some sentences well which might have caused confusion, sorry about that too

You have much more experience on AnimeSE than I do. Same with modding.

that said, I'm off to sleep.

Please ping me if you'd like to say anything.

For what it's worth, I thought your questions were valid, @arda. Maybe you pressed a little too hard at the end there and got a little too curt, but they're valid things to ask a mod candidate.

The id request thing still tends to get really heated; it's still this festering wound in our community, and people on both sides of the debate can get unpleasant fast. I get that senshin kind of threw down the gauntlet with that whole "vindicated by history" line and a lot people probably found that insensitive.

I'm tempted to rename myself to Mami and throw my head into the ring :p

lol

If at least one other person doesn't nominate, it's gonna be a real boring election.

I was honestly expecting you to run

I'm still thinking about it. I have kind of a lot going on IRL right now.

Plus I'm not always the most patient with people.

I don't think I've made many friends on the site :)

Writing a nomination post is really, really hard lol

Yeah, "here are all the reasons I'm awesome! that don't make me sound like a douchebag!" I always found cover letters difficult for the same reason.

I'm not sure with my candidate score I can just say "Yeah I've been a mod for three years, I really like this place and I'm a better tomato than @ToshinouKyouko" and run with it

It's unfortunate that we can't find someone's tomato score in SEDE so we can objectively prove that statement.

@Hakase Honestly my biggest worry about being a mod would be that I'd be too activist and impose my vision of the site too heavily on other users.

The other mods will usually bring you down a notch in that regard if it gets a bit out of hand or goes to meta, but as a mod you should really try to be hands-off as much as possible

You're not a replacement for the community; you're more like a protector or a janitor

(When people start sticking forks into power outlets, you step in and shut everything down, but dont go around content-policing without meta's consent)

Sure, I agree with that. At the same time, some of the communities I go to have mods that are more activist than others, and sometimes I feel like it's helpful for the community. A dictator is always bad, but a real leader can be a good thing.

I feel like our mods have historically been more on the activist side, but recently they've gotten a lot more hands-off, and there have been a few cases where I felt like we could use a little guidance.

With enough experience you just start editing things to properly fit site guidelines for the user, but editing is something that takes actual effort, and often people just close a question with a canned comment telling the user to do it themselves

@Torisuda ya looks like that's one thing a mod can't do at all, so I'd suck at it too

I have my own opinions about things

There's also the frequency of interaction; if you're the last user to touch every question on the front page, people start seeing you as a dictator

but it's not like senshin doesn't have his opinions

quite the opposite I'd have to say

@Amelia u talking about id requests?

I'm talking about when the community veers wildly off-topic and acts like it's a normal thing

we have pretty obvious regulations to avoid that

I doubt it would happen even if mods went away for a year

honestly I think everything is in perfect order right now

Have to agree; we've seen a lot less of the mods recently, and egregious things have still gotten cleaned up.

(anecdote from freelancing is that people originally used it as upwork/odesk support until we stuck it in the off-topic reasons and closed everything, etc)

My conundrum is that I agree with a lot of senshin's opinions, but I also don't think he's done a great job approaching the "id requests are gone, now what?" post game.

Something you wrote on a comment on senshin's nomination post, @arda, about that question @Hakase had written, wasn't entirely clear to me:

> You need to find the best way between doing what users want and what is best for website. That's what I mean. If you do stuff just for site, site may lose users. If you do stuff just for users, then you might harm the website and well, site may lose other users. You need to do stuff that is both good for community and site to both improve the community and the site.

> Your statement in nomtext reads like you want to do what you want to do because you think that'll help. That DID help, but asking community and not being arrogant is more likely to help the site.

I don't quite get the distinction you're making between community/users and site

Can you elaborate on that?

@Torisuda well, personally I don't really care, but Frosteeze and some other users said they don't feel it's a cool way to express your opinion

coz as a mod you gotta be neutral n stuff, represent the community, and not be so biased

but it's done, IDs are gone

so ignoring that part, I don't think anything else is wrong

@JNat that was basically about what I just said

if it's still unclear, let me break this apart:

a bunch of people were and still are fans of ID requests

another bunch of people became anti-ID after they saw what that did to us and the site

we've probably lost people from both sides but we still have pro-id people left

they don't think it's cool when somebody gloats about having banned ids

that's pretty much all there is to it

@Hakase Was that supposed to say "another bunch of people became anti-ID after they saw what that did to us and the community," though?

They're gone, but I feel like they're still with us in spirit—people still get sensitive about it and feel like their opinions were ignored.

'Cause what I'm not getting is what "site" is supposed to mean here

well… the whole ID conundrum affected the opinions of people and those who were neutral either became pro or anti ID, and some even switched sides

and those are all people who make up the community of the site

As far as I see it, there's no harming the site, short of messing with the HTML or something

The site is just the structure in which the community "lives," and the community/users are basically what matters here.

I took "site" to mean something like "quality of posts on the site".

so you can't really say somebody isn't looking out for the interests of the site if they think either way, because both opinions are present in the community

but what a lot of people forget is that IDs inherently cause reduction in quality on the whole site, and deter the majority of our target audience, and the site shifts way too heavily into the ID zone, and out of the original all anime/manga Q&A

@Torisuda He says:

> If you do stuff just for site, site may lose users.

so the use of the term is being a bit too ambiguous for me to get if it is meant to mean "content" or the actual structure where content is posted

take a look at movies − they've shifted into the ID spectrum way too much at this point and there are not as many active users who know how to raise quality up to our standards, and it's a problem for the whole site, no matter how you look at it

so it would only be beneficial for the whole community to turn the ship around and at least regulate IDs much harder, or remove them completely

They've been trying to regulate ids harder, but I don't think they've been having any more success than we did.

after all, the core of the site is Q&A and not ID, which obviously take away more attention, and the site is steering away from the SE ideology

@Torisuda I've talked to them, they're not hard enough yet

but they've recently done some poll so they can't just yet implement stricter rules

I think they'll ban IDs in a year or so

@JNat senshin actually used that term first; he said "the evidence shows that I have historically held positions that end up proving good for the health of the site" in his reply to Hakase about his "vindicated by history" line. I took his meaning to be "quality of content", so I assumed arda was continuing that meaning.

nah arda talks about how he phrases that

@Hakase Yeah, they had a few vocal people cross over from SF&F and advocate really hard for keeping ids.

it sounds insulting to pro-id people

I can't really argue with that.

@Torisuda that whole vote was a shitfest coz a bunch of people from other sites voted who don't actually do anything

Guilty as charged :)

and anyway how does anyone think it's gonna go when somebody on the internet, on a community you have no obligation to work for, says you gotta work for?

same thing as happened with us − we stopped working on fixing our ids and then decided it would be better to just ban them

I think their biggest mistake was doing a poll and having Ankit Sharma write the pro-id side even though he doesn't believe in them. They were trying to be fair, but it was a political misstep.

ye, they've already discussed this and have come to the same conclusions

I get that argument that you can keep up ids if people put in the work, but I was personally just so worn down by ids. I was even thinking about leaving the site.

now they have to wait a while before making another discussion in order to not seem hasty and dismissive of previous decisions

@Torisuda same here

and a bunch of people actually left

@Torisuda Prefilled poll-type questions are not a good idea. See this and this.

^ this was brought up in that discussion

Totally agree. You should have to articulate your position in order to have it considered.

(also, let's try to keep discussions here about the election/moderation. We still have our main room for other general talk ;)

ye but let's not discuss that there either

Point taken :) I should get to sleep anyway. Good chatting with you all; I might have to show my face around Maid Cafe more often.

@JNat have I cleared up everything about mine and arda's comments?

@Torisuda yea you should

@Hakase It was mostly the way arda phrased his last comment. So kinda, but I'd like to hear from him to make sure that was indeed what he meant :)

alright then, it'll be another 8-10 hours before we hear from him

if there are any prospective nominees who have questions about my first year of modding, you can ping me :)

@Amelia lol

Oh dear

noooo

it must have cut off all the zeroes

Oh, sorry,

Wrong database type.

:'(

@ToshinouKyouko look what you've gone and made me do

(also, refresh)

:)

Ayase Eri here.

I decided to join the election.

Currently our moderators are a big bad mean boss, a legendary ninja, and a tomato, so I think it is time we have a school idol moderator.

That being said, I have 0 experience with moderating, so I would like to ask for everyone's support and guidance.

Yoroshiku onegaishimasu.

oh okay

:)

we welcome your inclusion

@JNat first of all, good morning

@JNat His point was reading like "I wanted the best for site and wanted X and you didn't want X but it ended up the way I wanted!" and I said that well, such an attitude may cost him some votes

because well, I expect a mod to do the best stuff for both community and the site. Mods represent the community, and a mod having constant disagreements with users might cause problems in the future

@arda Hey :)

@arda I get what you meant the first time around. It was just your usage of the terms users/community and site on the penultimate comment that got me confused

@arda And here, again:

> I expect a mod to do the best stuff for both community and the site.

My bro is bugging me to return to game - will answer later

that's cool ;)

@JNat content

not just content

The stack (animese), generally. It includes guidelines, allowed content, content etc etc.

@arda so the content and the policies that govern it?

yep

Ok, cool. That clears it, and makes more sense to me

:)

At the risk of sounding nitpicky, you should probably, in future cases, mention something like "I'll use the word site to refer to this and that" or something like that, @arda

If that makes sense to you, of course