/dev/chat - 2019-08-16

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5:56 AM

This answer makes installing Debian in a Docker container look quite simple. Is it really so simple? And is it from scratch?

2 hours later…

8:16 AM

Could anyone help me with this question ?
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/535852/how-to-specify-port-for-scp-for-a-remote-server

4 hours later…

11:59 AM

Is this actually on topic? Can anyone tell if the problem is server-side (on topic) or client-side (Windows client, off topic)?

0

Q: OpenVPN client with PKI

I've been trying to setup an openvpn with a server using PKI certs. When I try to connect to the VPN server (with cert, user and pass) I see the following message: XML-RPC:XMLRPCRelay: EXTERNAL_PKI_NOT_IMPLEMENTED: Method 'get_config_tuple' not implemented for external configuration. Details...

1 hour later…

1:04 PM

@terdon they're connecting to an Ubuntu system, so I'd be inclined to keep it

That's my thought too. Unless the issue is configuring Windows correctly.

Some days I think I should consider a different MUA than Alpine. Considering it is not longer actively developed. But habits are hard to change.

1 hour later…

2:30 PM

Since there are sometimes gardening discussions here, would anyone care to opine about what I should do about a tree branch that is annoying me?

It gets in the way when I walk on the terrace. I have to duck, and it's annoying. It's not my tree, but I also don't care.

cut it? tie it off to the side?

2:55 PM

@FaheemMitha Well. here in VA you can legally cut a branch at the property line as long as you don't kill the tree in doing so... No idea what the law is there.

3:06 PM

@JeffSchaller @derobert Sure. I was just wondering what a safe and easy way to cut it would be.

How big of a branch?

@derobert Hmm. About the thickness of a human arm. Maybe a little less.

That varies a bit! But sounds like you might need a saw. And to be careful about where the branch falls, as it likely has some weight.

I just want to cut off the bit that is actually projecting out into the terrace, by a few feet. I was wondering if it would break if I hit it repeatedly with a hammer.

@derobert I could take a picture. But it's dark now. Though a flash might work. I don't know.

No doubt it'll give if hit with a large enough hammer. That's a rather silly (and probably dangerous) approach though.

You don't need a chainsaw or anything big like that. Just a hand-held tree saw will do.

3:10 PM

@derobert Oh? I thought it would be safer than using a saw.

@derobert Oh. Manual, then? Not an electric saw?

@FaheemMitha I've had good luck with a folding saw; can't remember the name, but it's like this:

amazon.com/REXBETI-Folding-Camping-Pruning-Quality/dp/…

@FaheemMitha Yep. Will only take a few minutes.

@derobert Ok. So just a manual saw. Pull it back and forth?

Yep.

There are some hits on Amazon India.

3:12 PM

If the branch is very heavy, consider making a few cuts, from the end, towards the trunk, so you're only dropping shorter sections at a time.

Gloves (to prevent splinters) and eye protection are a good idea, but far less required than with an electric or gas-powered saw. Or that hammer idea....

watch the way the wind is blowing, or you'll get sawdust in your eyes :)

amazon.in/s?k=wood+saw&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

search for a tree saw

@FaheemMitha try "folding camp saw"

3:13 PM

@JeffSchaller That sounds like a good idea. Slice it off in sections.

smaller sections would be easier to move/dispose, too

@JeffSchaller Those actually look less promising.

yeah, tree saw, camp saw, pruning saw, those are reasonable search terms. They're normally curved blades and angled to make it easier to reach branches. Not the saw you'd use on a 2x4 at a workbench.

I could get amazon.in/Stanley-54-105-Steel-Shaft-Chrome/dp/B00ICIKK1G and pretend I'm a lumberjack.

Maybe sing that song from "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers". The lonesome polecat one.

@FaheemMitha if you're more interested in an arm workout than removing a branch, sure :)

amazon.in/Homely-Portable-Folding-Trimming-Woodworking/dp/… this one says "returnable in 10 days", so if you plan it right...

3:16 PM

Well, there are a lot of options.

@JeffSchaller I'll hang on to it in case a tree annoys me in the future.

Using and returning isn't very polite, even if one gets away with it.

I wasn't sure what your lumberjack plans were

(I have two such saws, since I temporarily lost one)

@JeffSchaller I like the one you originally suggested, but I don't see anything like that here.

@JeffSchaller I'm open to the idea, though I don't see myself wearing a dress.

Pick a cheap saw. It doesn't really matter if its not great, you're only using it once. Or pick a nice one and have a tool that will last forever. The only real alternative for that work is loppers, but it sounds like your branch is probably too thick. (loppers as in, e.g., this type of thing)

I kind of like the idea of hitting with a hammer. Though it sounds like that isn't the best strategy.

might work, if you do it for a few years

3:20 PM

@derobert Yes, that would probably be too small.

@JeffSchaller Did what for a few years?

@FaheemMitha whack it with a hammer

that just means he needs a bigger hammer

@JeffSchaller I would hope it wouldn't take that long.

@FaheemMitha I'm sorry to misjudge your strength!

“That board with a nail in it may have defeated us, but the humans won’t stop there. They’ll make bigger boards and bigger nails. Soon they will make a board with a nail in it so big, it will destroy them all.”

I think we used to have a saw. Perhaps I should search for it. It's probably still there.

@JeffSchaller The Simpsons? Really?

3:24 PM

Just think of the fun you could have with a 20lb sledge hammer! After you take out the branch, you can start work on the rest of the tree, and eventually proceed to the neighbors house. Even concrete walls will be no match for you, given enough effort!

the "bigger hammer" quote made me think of that. Certainly a sledgehammer would help speed up the process, increase your strength, and keep the neighbors away

Actually this doesn't look that bad, but it's suspiciously cheap. amazon.in/Aurora-Folding-Trimming-Pruning-Woodworking/dp/…

@derobert I think I'll train to be the Hulk some other time.

Looks like it comes with some pre-cut branches, too! :)

Like an overgrown penknife.

@JeffSchaller Hmm?

@FaheemMitha It looks short. Probably shorter than you want. But I bet it'd still work better than a hammer :-)

3:27 PM

@FaheemMitha the third picture

@derobert Yes, maybe it's a bit small.

too bad it doesn't list any dimensions other than weight, but I agree -- anything with teeth is better than a hammer, here

@JeffSchaller Oh, right. The little wood bits.

Well, I don't know about anything with teeth. I don't recommend trying to chew through the branch.

Also keeps the neighbors away

buy a pet beaver, train it to climb a ladder, point it to the branch

I'm full of bad ideas ;)

in other news, looks like our friend Mr. Kitt may hit 200k by early next week.

3:30 PM

Well, no one has suggested this yet, so how about...

Sawfishes, also known as carpenter sharks, are a family of rays characterized by a long, narrow, flattened rostrum, or nose extension, lined with sharp transverse teeth, arranged in a way that resembles a saw. They are among the largest fish with some species reaching lengths of about 7–7.6 m (23–25 ft). They are found worldwide in tropical and subtropical regions in coastal marine and brackish estuarine waters, as well as freshwater rivers and lakes.They should not be confused with sawsharks (order Pristiophoriformes) or the extinct sclerorhynchids (order Sclerorhynchiformes) which have a similar...

@derobert nice! wouldn't need a ladder with that one

I was on my way to suggesting a pole saw, if it was too far away, but a sawfish might work too

Faheem's wondering about all this free advice ;)

You folks certainly have original ideas. Next you'll be suggesting I set it on fire.

Well, thermite probably would work, if you can find a way to keep it from flowing off the branch.

A tree aflame. That would probably make the news.

well, that was my second idea. My first idea was to find a way to make yourself shorter. I held those back

3:34 PM

@JeffSchaller That's very restrained of you.

@JeffSchaller Though how would making myself shorter help?

@FaheemMitha so your head wouldn't hit the branch

@JeffSchaller Oh, I see. Interesting notion. All I need is a shrink ray.

if you're into DIY, you could make a water cutter

Or Ant Man's suit.

You could take up crawling.

3:35 PM

with that suit, careful you dont fall into the quantum realm

you could move

Antarctica's pretty sparsely populated, and doesn't have many trees

@Tablemaker Yes, one should watch out for the Quantum Realm. That would definitely ruin my day.

Yep. All kinds of options. Some of them are even good options.

@JeffSchaller That looks dangerous.

> Perfect machine if you feel like you have just too many fingers

certainly, but if we're in the area of sawfishes and 20lb sledges, what's a little high-pressure water?

watering the remainder of the tree as a side benefit

Back on the helpful side, I've heard advice from an arborist that it's best to cut branches near to a fork (or the trunk), and not some arbitrary mid-point. I forget the logic behind it, but just in case you care about the health of the tree.

3:40 PM

Somehow that man appears to have both his hands intact.

@JeffSchaller It's a freaking huge tree, so not really. That tree is actually growing on the ground. The terrace is 3 storeys up.

well then, you get to yell "timber!", too!

@FaheemMitha That's good to hear. I'm always worried when I see a tree growing in mid-air.

I actually complained to the BMC, but they are the world's most useless organization.

@derobert well, that branch could be coming from a different dimension.

@derobert that would have opened up more possibilities for (re)moving the branch, though!

But if they did any pruning, it would be pretty drastic. That's one seriously overgrown tree.

3:42 PM

Ok, trees from different dimensions are even more worrying. I think the best advice if you have a tree growing out the Dungeon Dimensions, for example, is "run".

@derobert Thanks for the tip. I'll keep it in mind.

Personally, I've always considered Rincewind a role model.

He'd definitely have the right approach there.

Of course, I could always go with the flow and attach a swing to it.

So, are you guys at work? Theoretically speaking.

I've heard of a new thing called "guerrilla gardening" where people splice fruit-bearing tree branches onto existing trees. Just a thought.

@JeffSchaller Does it work?

3:48 PM

@FaheemMitha Theoretically speaking, simultaneity is relative, so that depends on your reference frame. But yes.

I think you guys are slipping. You forgot to suggest hand blasters. Or a lightsaber, possibly.

This one is a bit pricey, but does have nice pictures. amazon.in/Urancia%C2%AE-Gardening-Foldable-woodworking-Trimmers/…

@FaheemMitha Or firearms. Have you considered shooting the branch?

But it doesn't show the folding bit.

@derobert They take a dim view of firearms here. But I suspect India doesn't have much by way of lightsaber legislation.

Probably not. But I think plastic light-up toys are going to work even less well than the hammer...

@FaheemMitha lol! "Nature friendly" and "Made with best raw material"

3:53 PM

@JeffSchaller Yes, well. That's India.

also ranked #58 in Kids' Garden Tools

A lot of the advertising I read seems to have written by people who were drunk. Or high. And with an indifferent command of English.

@JeffSchaller I missed that bit.

anyway, if you can reach the branch from the ground, that's the type of tool I'd use. a pole saw if it's out of reach.

@FaheemMitha OTOH, depending on how they wrote their firearms laws, they might not cover rail guns. Firing a several kg shot from one of those at the branch would remove it. At lest, if you don't miss.

@derobert Isn't a rail gun something you fire from orbit? My memory is a bit dim.

No, fire things into orbit, sorry.

3:55 PM

Nope, you fire it from wherever. Uses electromagnetism to accelerate something akin to a canon ball

That would certainly take out the branch, but people might notice.

Achieving orbit with one would be quite a stunt.

@derobert I guess I'm confusing reality with science fiction.

what-if.xkcd.com/18

I think there's an episode of Justice League where Vandal Savage uses one to launch a meteorite at Earth. Everyone needs a hobby, I suppose.

@JeffSchaller Randall clearly has time on his hands.

4:00 PM

yes he does -- there's also this one:

what-if.xkcd.com/21

> At t=0, 40,000 people open fire.

Well, you can't accuse him of thinking small.

and one I didn't see when it came out, but seems pertinent: what-if.xkcd.com/90

> Note: Please, PLEASE do not try this at home

LOL.

That warning was clearly for Americans.

@Kusalananda thanks for your comment on my shell question, that was exactly the missing piece I needed!

@sourcejedi Good. The question should possibly include a mentioning of why you need a login shell?

4:11 PM

@FaheemMitha That would work (although it would require one hell of a huge railgun!). It's much easier to shoot things into a gravity well than to accelerate them out of one.

@terdon I suppose so. Though you'd need something to shoot it from. In this case, I think it was some kind of space station.

@derobert I think that might not be too hard if you start on a planet with no atmosphere. The things can theoretically reach ridiculous levels of acceleration.

Or so has repeatedly been drilled into me over several years of a very-rich-in-scifi-books diet.

@terdon I'm not sure what the maximum velocity you can get with one is... Maybe you can do it without an atmosphere. Especially on a sufficiently small planet.

@sourcejedi I think sudo -i deposits you in the home directory of root by default, which means that you can't use cd ... && sudo -i .... It also means that you can't use a directory path relative to the current directory with you current answer, which is why I suggested that sh -l -c thing in comments.

@derobert On a sufficiently small planet, I can produce enough thrust to reach escape velocity by sneezing! :P

4:17 PM

@terdon I'd like to see you do that without an atmosphere. :-P

@derobert That might complicate things, true :)

@Kusalananda you can use sudo -s instead if you like. That won't move you.

@derobert Take a pea and put it in your nose. Sneeze. Wheeeee! Escape velocity! Oh, and the pea trivially has no atmosphere.

Escape velocity usually refers to the velocity needed to escape the planet, not your nasal cavity.

Although, I guess if your nose is big enough...

It's relative yes? I mean, are you escaping it or is it escaping you?

@Kusalananda :-/

4:20 PM

@Kusalananda I keep forgetting how zen you are...

Ommmmmmm

@Kusalananda now you've just disintegrated the planet

Drat. And it was a good pea too.

What's the Roche limit on that pea, I wonder?

Hard to believe your nose didn't come within it, if the pea is a planet.

Which would probably cause a pretty nasty nosebleed.

Bah, details.

4:23 PM

this room's amazing :)

@derobert African or European pea?

Nice try. They're native to the Mediterranean. There are only European (or maybe Asian) peas.

AaaaaAaaaaaaaaaaaaargggggggggggggg!

@derobert "Cowpeas" (black-eyed peas) are African.

Well, you'd hardly put one of those up your nose!

4:27 PM

I'm sure it can be done.

@Kusalananda I can hold your beer.

@Kusalananda Might as well use a kidney bean at that point. Or, heaven forbid, a non-pareil caper!

@terdon No beer here, sorry. The closest to beer I have is a beard (with regards to sort order).

I can hold that if you want though.

Please do.

@Kusalananda Hopefully the beard is permanently attached.

4:29 PM

Meant to say "You can"... but ok.

@derobert More or less. It is rather persistent.

What was the topic?

I think we somehow got here from @FaheemMitha's tree trimming woes.

It was quite a journey! From Faheem bumping his head on a branch to terdon holding Kusalananda's beard.

Oh, that's a rather nice arc, from tree trimming via escape velocities to beards.

@derobert Don't play innocent! You knew what was going to happen when you brought in railguns!

@JeffSchaller I only wanted to help him find his pea!

@terdon You're right, I'm sometimes finding all sorts of things in there.

4:32 PM

@terdon I didn't know it was going to end with beards. Though since it's a Unix chat, maybe I should have known.

That's it, everybody out "So the answer is that while sending one person into space is easy, getting all of us there would tax our resources to the limit and possibly destroy the planet. It’s a small step for a man, but a giant leap for mankind."

lol

@Kusalananda I commented a bit on ctrl-alt-delor's answer, but then since you suggested editting the question, I've moved it there.

@sourcejedi I just saw that.

@sourcejedi can't you just use a script?

#!/bin/sh
dir=$1
shift
cd "$dir"
exec strace -- "$@"

And then sudo foo.sh ?

4:46 PM

@terdon that works and I think would be a good answer. I don't need everything in one script file, and this is part of a project where I could shuffle foo.sh away into a separate "lib" directory.

I think putting it in a function will probably be tidy enough for my purposes though.

Well, I think we've learned of a lot of ways to destroy a branch, but I still don't have a saw.

@FaheemMitha Have you tried git branch -D?

@terdon I'm not a git user, so no.

Since you seem to have a hammer, consider mining some iron, then forming a saw-shaped mold, then melt the iron and pour it into the mold. Find some spare wood lying around (!) and tie a handle around itl. Tada, saw.

Mercurial is much better.

@JeffSchaller Unfortunately I don't have any blacksmith training.

4:50 PM

@FaheemMitha hg strip branch?

Clearly I took the wrong classes at school. I did attend a wood-working class, but wasn't very good at it. I was always the last one to finish.

@JeffSchaller Or, to remain on topic, you could freeze Kusalananda's beard and use it as a saw.

@terdon We have better ways now.

@FaheemMitha Ah well. That's what my 2 minute search came up with :)

@terdon but then I'd have to handle more flags!

assuming Kusalananda is also frozen in the process

4:54 PM

@FaheemMitha Mercury is so awkward to work with though. Not least because it is not solid at room temperature.

Oh, and it's poisonous.

@Kusalananda It just has a poor marketing team.

And Mercurial is fortunately not Mercury.

I doubt one could do very good version control using a silvery liquid metal.

I see someone starred by question about Docker (for some reason) but nobody replied to it.

Is zip a good option for reasonably low-tech encryption?

@FaheemMitha various zip encryption implementations have had really bad reps. I don't know if there's a recommended one. man zip says "where security is truly important, use strong encryption such as Pretty Good Privacy instead of the relatively weak standard encryption provided by zipfile utilities."

@sourcejedi More of a gesture, really. Better than sending it out in the clear.

I'm not sure I'm up to educating people about real encryption.

Hmm, apparently it's possible to add a password to a PDF directly.

I wonder if any free tools do that.

Ah, supposed pdftk can.

 [encrypt_40bit | encrypt_128bit]
              If an output PDF user or owner password is given, output PDF encryption strength defaults to 128 bits.  This can be overridden by specifying encrypt_40bit.

Is 128bit good?

The pdftk man page is a bit on the cryptic side. What's owner_pw and user_pw for?

Hmm, this question offers a variety of choices. I'm officially overwhelmed.

I think I'll retire from the fray and become a goatherd.

5:46 PM

@FaheemMitha Wiki says 128 bit AES is considered acceptable for US classifications up to SECRET. The 128-bit part is not a problem.

I'm now reading that an encrypted PDF isn't really encrypted. Which is encouraging.

Oh, apparently the owner password is kind of a joke.

2 hours later…

7:39 PM

Hi folks. Does anyone know how to set only the user password for qpdf encryption?

I'm doing:

qpdf --encrypt userpasswd "" 256 -- foo.pdf foo.enc.pdf

and it still opens the PDF. If I use a password for both, it works. But I just want to do the user password encryption.

And frankly that's a pretty terrible UI. Who in this day and age wouldn't do that with command line flags?

Maybe I'm doing this wrong. In github.com/qpdf/qpdf/issues/114 that is exactly the syntax used. I've also tried single quotes. Can someone check this?

Debian buster. But the qpdf version from unstable - 8.4.2-1.

8:01 PM

@Kusalananda thanks to you and anyone else who asked why not use "sudo sh -l ..." instead of "sudo -i ...". I came up with a (IMO) cleaner answer now :-).

8:35 PM

@fra-san yes please

9:19 PM

Does anyone know if it is possible to ask a question that is linked to my account, but not publicly, and shows up as anonymous?

9:50 PM

It is not, but new accounts are free

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