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9:08 AM
morning
 
9:34 AM
@Gilles: Ī̲ fixed gibberish in titles in about dozen instances. As for editing tags out, such tags as seem to be misused on both counts (blatantly overused, but sometimes missed).
It’s not very easy for a user to determine whether his/her question is Linux-specific or applies to any POSIX-oriented environment.
Possibly question editors should be educated. Several editors that can think quickly (like me and @Gilles) will not hurt. But there should exist some guideline about editing ignorance out without damaging the question.
When Ī̲ tried to talk about that at meta.stackexchange.com/questions/265835/… , most of them hissed me.
IMHO titles may be mercilessly rewritten if needed (because they could help much to identify the question), but changing terminology in the body should be done carefully and on a serious pretext only.
In unix.stackexchange.com/posts/17419/… you can see how a careless edit ruined consistency of terminology.
First-priority task (making a good title) wasn’t accomplished, whereas VT was partially renamed to “virtual console”. Andries Brouwer states it’s perfectly correct to use the term “VT”.
By the way, on fixing it, Ī̲ forgot to add myself.
This was also one of obvious things to do by previous editor(s). My attention was distracted to several other things.
 
 
2 hours later…
12:13 PM
How Ī̲ hate this debasing SE engine, namely restrictions on edits imposed by dick coders.
 
12:34 PM
And s.n. “review audit” as well. Once this crappy software scolded me because Ī̲ took an action opposite to the one taken by the majority. Ī̲ hate such a distrust.
But fortunately, this latter thing can be turned off programmatically.
 
1:02 PM
@StéphaneChazelas damn, you're quite right of course, I deleted my answer. Could you explain what you mean by this comment though?
> Note that character classes would rather refer to the [:class:] used within bracket expressions. The [-_[:blank:]0-5] bracket expression would match a character that is either _, - or any character in the blank character class or any character in the range 0 to 5.
 
1:29 PM
@terdon Well just that. using "character class" for [^abc] is confusing as character classes usually refer to things like [:blank:] [:alpha:] which contrary to [^abc] is about classification of characters.
 
@StéphaneChazelas Isn't [abc] a character class? Just like [:blank:]?
I always thought the [foo] notation is called a character class. That's what the link above suggests as well. What would you call it then?
 
Well, it is in perl manual terminology, but POSIX and most other documentation use "bracket expression" for that.
hmmm, looks like python also calls them character class, so I suppose you can ignore my comment.
 
Fair enough, thanks anyway.
 
I suppose the best wording to avoid confusion is to call [abc] or [[:blank:]] a bracket expression, and [:blank:] a POSIX character class (to avoid confusion with other usages of "character class").
Note that you can use a "POSIX character class" within a bracket expression, but a POSIX character class outsite a bracket expression is not treated as such. The [:blank:] regular expression matches a :, b, l, a, n or k character.
 
 
3 hours later…
4:51 PM
hi
Fedora 22 - Apache installation
Failed to restart httpd.service: Access denied
even for the root....Please help
 
5:36 PM
@devst3r see topic: "General discussion for unix.stackexchange.com. If you have a question, see unix.stackexchange.com/questions/ask"
Though we can help you formulate a good question to ask.
I'd suggest including the full command you're running.
Wait, I guess you did ask a question... unix.stackexchange.com/questions/230598/… ... never mind.
@FaheemMitha so, by asking aptitude to solve its way through a smaller subset (e.g., upgrade one semi-leaf package) its pulling it off....
@FaheemMitha which is something that none of the other tools have managed.
 
@derobert Really? And sorry, I forget the context.
 
Unlike apt/apt-get dist-upgrade's suggestion of uninstalling half the distro
@FaheemMitha Upgrading a testing/unstable box with the C++ transition
 
@derobert oh
That's the transition to 5.0 or something?
 
@FaheemMitha Yeah.
 
@derobert ok
And apt can't cope? Weird.
 
5:50 PM
It's been a while since the last huge transition.
@FaheemMitha Nope, it wants to remove everything...
 
Strange. Usually it's quite conservative. That's on testing, I suppose.
 
Of course, if you tell aptitude to try to figure out the whole thing at once—12G of RAM isn't enough.
 
Did you try to upgrade a bit at a time?
With apt-get, I mean.
 
@FaheemMitha Well, apt-get upgrade is. dist-upgrade isn't so much.
Yeah, almost every package I tried individually wanted to do things like uninstall gimp, libreoffice, etc.
apt unfortunately doesn't have a way to try alternative solutions—aptitude does.
 
@derobert Oh. Well, that's too bad. But does the C++ transition not require replacing everything then?
@derobert Well, there are third party solvers...
 
5:53 PM
@FaheemMitha Only C++ stuff. And mainly libraries.
So LibreOffice needs upgrading, gimp though is written in C, I believe.
 
I don't see why small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri would want to help with editing SE.
@derobert Oh
 
No idea why it wanted to remove gimp, honestly.
 
@derobert: GIMP has a toolset that is used by other applications.
 
@derobert There's that debugging mode I mentioned some time ago. Though I don't undertand how it works.
 
Possibly something related to versions.
 
5:56 PM
@FaheemMitha ??? I'm not seeing the reference...
 
@derobert To the right. Starred comment.
 
@IncnisMrsi Well, it's been a separate project for a long time. Also isn't it written in C?
 
a separate project from which one?
 
If I was a small furry creature from AC I'd want to see the sights. Maybe Times Square. Or the Himalayas.
 
@IncnisMrsi gtk has been a separate project from gimp for a while
at least, I thought it was
 
5:59 PM
@derobert Yes, I think it is.
 
@FaheemMitha Well, that'd depend on if small Alpha Centaurian furry creatures share human aesthetics. Who knows, maybe they actually want to explore the storm drains?
 
It's used as a toolkit by GNOME, isn't it? Though it started life as part of GIMP.
But GIMPs creators are long gone.
 
oops. My knowledge is outdated.
 
@derobert That's true. Or climb trees.
@IncnisMrsi Well, WP should cover it. And there are a few reasonable histories.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebel_Code is a reasonable reference, though now a bit dated, of course.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTK%2B#History covers the basics of GTK+.
@derobert ever tried using apt-get with an external solver?
 
@FaheemMitha nope, haven't tried that
(well, I guess unless you count aptitude's solver.)
 
6:09 PM
@derobert You've used apt-get with aptitude's solver?
 
@FaheemMitha Well, aptitude uses apt-get internally of course. But other than that, no
 
@derobert No, it uses the apt shared library. apt-get is a standalone binary which also used the apt shared library. Which is called libapt-pkg, I think.
I don't know if the aptitude solver is modular enough to use with apt-get, as a plugin. Probably not.
 
Is apt-cudf the only one?
 
@derobert Dunno. Maybe.
I don't think much work has been done on it. As you know, there isn't a lot of manpower around apt.
 
Hello. Is “review audit” enabled on the site at all? Ī̲ passed through four review items (first posts and late answers) happily without getting into this heck.
 
6:28 PM
@IncnisMrsi it might only be on the bigger sites (like Stack Overflow).
@FaheemMitha both apt and aptitude seem to have cases where they suggest silly things. E.g., I just asked aptitude to upgrade inkscape. One of its suggestions on how to resolve dependencies? Uninstall it.
 
@derobert Uninstall what?
 
inkscape
 
@FaheemMitha inkscape, the package I asked it to upgrade
 
@IncnisMrsi That's a weird "I" you've got there.
@derobert Oh, that is pretty nutso. Probably bug report worthy.
Then again, nobody is maintaining aptitude, afaik.
 
@FaheemMitha Oh, I bet there is already a bug report... not worth the effort of going through the bug list to check.
 
6:37 PM
@derobert Probably.
 
@IncnisMrsi No, it's not on by default and we haven't needed it yet.
 
Its probably also hard to fix (unless you just special-case it, to automatically put it on the reject list)
 
@derobert, @terdon: Good. No treatment as shit (like math.SE) here.
 
Umm. Oookay.
 
But e.g., in the UI, you hit upgrade-all, and then you've requested hundreds of upgrades. Sometimes the right answer is to remove one of them.
 
6:39 PM
in some cases, yes
but inkscape doesn't strike me as one that would cause that
 
@derobert In any case, aptitude already has hundreds of bug reports which nobody is doing anything about.
I think there was someone a little while ago that was doing some triaging.
Hmm, haven't seen @Braiam around much recently.
 
@FaheemMitha Maybe he didn't survive g++5.
 
ahh, the dreaded ABI transition
 
@derobert Perhaps. Or maybe he decided to go dancing.
 
The last one I lived through was worse, if my memory serves
 
6:42 PM
Or switched to Windows.
@casey One good reason not to be on the bleeding edge.
 
@FaheemMitha be nice!
 
@casey yep, I'm down to 124 packages to upgrade now. Started at over 600.
 
@FaheemMitha i'm not on the super bleeding edge, I waiting for gcc 5.1.0 being released to make my switch
 
How long before a bleeding-edge release is considered not bleeding anymore
 
6:48 PM
@Brandin when the blood clots
 
@Brandin Once the doctors get there and patch it up
 
for example, I still consider my gcc 5.2 based system "bleeding edge" because of things like gcc 5 not being officially supported yet in gentoo (until all blocking bugs are resolved), needing to apply a patch to gcc to be able to compile wine, etc
 
Serious answer is it depends on who you ask. The answer you'll get from a sysadmin at a big bank will be a lot different than from a teenager playing with Linux on his home server.
 
but others might always consider my build bleeding edge because I'm perpetually running very new versions of things.
though I'll counter that I could be truly bleeding edge and tell my system to track live source repositories instead of upstream releases and build from those :)
I did that for a bit when plasma 5 was about to come out. My whole KDE install was built from their live git repos. a bit insane really
 
@casey Have they managed to fix the clock widget yet, so you can customize the date/time display format?
Last I saw (when trying to get it set up right on my laptop) was that all you have to do is write your own custom locale...
 
6:57 PM
@derobert no idea, before Plasma 5 really stabilized I switched back to awesome
but I somehow doubt it. Their clock always annoyed me
 
7:22 PM
root@Zia:/home/anthony# apt upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
C++ transition defeated!
 
@derobert You're using the apt binary now?
 
@FaheemMitha I've been using all three: apt, apt-get, and aptitude
Mainly apt and aptitude
 
@derobert oh
@derobert Defeated? You mean completed?
 
@FaheemMitha 🙋 I suppose. But that doesn't sound as grand :-/
 
Does the 5.x version have much of a difference from 4.9?
 
7:26 PM
⌣ 𝨾 𝩀 😼 ← a bunch of Unicode characters, half of which don't display here...
@FaheemMitha The ABI is different.
 
@FaheemMitha depends on the language front-end you are using
but the biggest change is the C++11 ABI
 
One would think at some point that the C++ people would wrap it up and call it a day. Like Knuth did with TeX.
 
which, is not entirely finalized yet
 
I mean, they could point proudly to the current mess, and say - it's done.
 
@FaheemMitha oh no, they're working on future versions of C++.
 
7:27 PM
if the language was dead, sure
 
Even C gets new versions...
 
but on a living language, no
 
@derobert Subjecting future generations to cruel and unusual punishment.
 
vs restricting the language...
 
@casey I was mostly thinking of C++.
They perpetually seem to be in the process of upgrading to the most recent standard.
 
7:29 PM
☺ 😁 😃 😄 😇 😈 😊 ← enough smiles, time to go home
 
and of course, newer version of gcc can generate code for newer CPU instruction sets and there may be other optimizations. e.g. LTO is improving with each iteration
 
@derobert They don't display on Chromium here. But why?
 
Now what we need is a glibc ABI change, for ultimate pain and suffering 💩
display fine one Chromium here. Maybe you don't have fonts for them?
 
I see them in chrome
 
So they're not even coming from that weird a set of fonts.
 
7:34 PM
@derobert Maybe. Do I need tons of fonts then?
 
id guess you are missing dejavu
 
yeah, probably
Verdana is the default font chat.SE uses
 
Are there some basic sets I can install?
 
fonts-dejavu should do it for that
 
@derobert Already installed.
Should I concern myself with Truetype Fonts?
 
7:38 PM
Donno then, unless you have an older version.
2.35-1 here
Also, heading home :-)
 
my dejavu fonts are v2.34
 
2.34 here.
 
 
3 hours later…
11:03 PM
@roaima For future reference, if you're so impatient as to post a comment complaining about downvotes in the time it takes to write the explanatory comment, you don't get an explanatory comment from me.
 

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