/dev/chat

the gnome project did the 3.0, to RH's credit they went along with fedora being a vanilla implementation of it, ubuntu went with unity b/c they're bent on controlling everything

imo

RH is much better at participating on the open source projects than ubuntu, they tend not to

terdon

true

slm

12:10 AM

neither is right/wrong just different

Craig Sanders

@slm that's a chicken and egg thing. RH have been trying to control everything for years. ubuntu are doing the same.

terdon

@CraigSanders yes, but they were contributing quite a bit to the source tree

At least that was my understanding

Craig Sanders

true. doesn't mean i have to like being in the crossfire

Braiam

@terdon who, canonical or RH?

slm

RH

Craig Sanders

12:12 AM

both, but especially rh.

terdon

@Braiam RH yes

Still, much as I don't like canonical they did manage to make the Desktop GNU/Linux popular and I think that'll is a good thing in the long run

slm

it's diff. to tease out i agree, in the early days the only ppl contrib. were RH guys, so they're weaved into the projects b/c of this. But they've generally been better at supporting multiple projects even when they were direct competitors, in Ubuntu land they are more like the borg

terdon

yeah

slm

yeah it's all good in that regard, the prob. is that there is too much duplication right now, so it's dilutes the effort

terdon

Canonical never tried to stomp on Mint did they?

I mean at first Mint was just Ubuntu with codecs and better hardware recognition

as far as I know, Canonical never had an issue with them which is not that borg-like

Craig Sanders

12:14 AM

diversity/dilution is not the problem. deliberate incompatibility and fragmentation are the problen

Braiam

I think that the problem with canonical is that they are too prideful to say they were wrong..

terdon

To be honest, fragmentation has always been a problem

Braiam

and forks are just the result of fixing things, making a fork instead of Ubuntu...

terdon

@Braiam wrong about what? It's their whole approach that we object to

Craig Sanders

from canonical's pov they're not wrong - they don't want to be dependant on technology that is controlled by their direct competitor. i can't say that justifies what they're doing but it's understandable.

Braiam

12:17 AM

one thing is not being dependant of the competitor, and another is "heck, our competitor is doing this right, why won't we do the same as they?"

terdon

this about upstart/systemd?

Craig Sanders

gnome3 isn't "right". systemd certainly isn't right - that's about as wrong as you can get

terdon

but how is either controlled by canonical?

Craig Sanders

both are controlled by RH.

slm

i still don't understand the whole upstart/systemd thing, that seems like a cluster F###

Craig Sanders

12:18 AM

which is why canonical has upstart and unity

terdon

why controlled?

slm

seems like the underlying issue was that the services /etc/init.d couldn't scale up so that services could start up in tandem

terdon

you mean the lead devs work for the respective companies?

slm

+ the interface is old

Craig Sanders

@terdon - who does most of the work on both of them? RH employees.

terdon

12:20 AM

yeah, ok

slm

that's where canonical goes wrong imo. they don't participate on the projects like RH does

Braiam

ok, then, users appart, what is in for Canonical and RH? corporate clients?

Craig Sanders

imo ubuntu would have been better off using standard stuff like xfce

terdon

how is Gnome not standard?

slm

corporate is where the $$$ is at

we spent 300-400 per RHEL seat

for server

desktop is a waste of time from $$ standpoint

look at M$

the OS division is only 3-4billion

Braiam

12:22 AM

Office is the only thing keeps Microsoft afloat...

Craig Sanders

@Braiam - yep. the only reason why RH support fedora is so that the remain relevant to geeks who may end up using RHEL at work. ditto for ubuntu, although there's a less-clear distinction between free ubuntu and supported ubuntu

Braiam

actually that and games are practially the only reason people use Windows...

slm

yup

Craig Sanders

gnome is not-standard because they keep deliberately breaking compatibility with standards

slm

you'd be surprised, we have a small business licensing for MS at work and it's a complicated beast

they charge a lot for the stuff, and ppl are so apt to pay it

Craig Sanders

12:23 AM

it's becoming more and more difficult to use gnome apps like evince in non-gnome environments like xfce.

slm

that's too bad, that was always the strength of gnome over kde

Craig Sanders

the latest UI abombination in evince is about enough for me to drop it entirely.

slm

gtk+ apps were very portable, even to windows

really? wow

as i've stated before, i'm waiting for it to settle out

fedora 14, gnome 2.32

Braiam

ok, I have to lol to that question...

terdon

@CraigSanders that bad?

Craig Sanders

12:26 AM

slm - it aint going to settle out. gnome3 is only going to get worse. if you want something like gnome2 but with a future, switch to xfce. or cinnamon.

Braiam

they wouldn't break gtk on propose right?

terdon

@CraigSanders what's wrong with evince? I mean it has various problems but it's GUI?

slm

During the first quarter of 2012, for example, Business generated $5.8 billion, or 33.4% of Microsoft's total revenue of $17.4 billion. In the same period, the Windows and Windows Live Division raked in $4.6 billion, or 26.6% of the firm's revenue for the quarter.

terdon

which version is this?

Craig Sanders

@terdon - yeah. latest versions completely ignore my "i want text buttons, not icons" setting that i've had for years. so i have inscrutable hieroglyphics instead of text menus and buttons. and those hieroglyphics are all on the top right side of the "menu" bar (ignoring the theme) rather than the left side where they belong.

terdon

12:28 AM

Huh?

Braiam

@CraigSanders take a screenshot of the Frank's monster instead..

terdon

slm

yeah i'd like to see this

what is this?

evince?

terdon

yeah, with that silly gnome-screenshot thing that sometimes photographs its own selector box

Craig Sanders

which evince are you running. i've got 3.8.3-2

terdon

12:29 AM

3.4.0

ouch, I've got that to look forward to huh?

slm

terdon

which one's that @slm?

slm

2.32 from gnome 2.32

fedora 14

Craig Sanders

slm

wow, what happened?

terdon

12:32 AM

WTF?

Craig Sanders

I have NFI what those icons mean. i'm essentially illiterate when it comes to icons, i can never figure out what they're supposed to mean.

slm

can you change the view icons, view text + icons type of settings?

terdon

I get search, settings and...?

Craig Sanders

@slm - there used to be a "text buttons" setting, i used to use it until this version of evince. it's gone. there's no settings/preferences menu or dialog now either.

Braiam

is the new default look in all Gnome applications, they will take the Chrome/ium like minimalist GUI

terdon

12:36 AM

Minimalist I can deal with but making a Linux desktop less configurable is WRONG

Craig Sanders

yep, i've also noticed it in their pretentiously named "The Web Browser" (used to be called epiphany) by the even more pretentiously named "The Web Developers".

slm

mail.gnome.org/archives/evince-list/2013-July/msg00014.html

I'm dumbfounded

Craig Sanders

gnome has been all about making a linux desktop less configurable for years. they know better than you.

slm

> Are there any plans to reintroduce customizable toolbars? Any thread
> about this issue worth watching?

No, there aren't plans to allow customize the toolbar at the moment.

Craig Sanders

bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=721783

slm

12:38 AM

Did you raise it upstream?

my thread would seem to indicate no will be the answer when asked

i find it funny that there is this push to enable everything for tablet and disenfranchise the meager 1-10% of the users in the world that are already using the stuff

Craig Sanders

@slm - nope. i learnt years ago that reporting bugs to gnome is a complete waste of time. i have no interest in being told to fuck off, that i'm not the target audience and an idiot besides.

slm

i've never done any bug reporting to the large projects either, seems a waste of time

terdon

> learning a modular
set of re-usable letters is far more efficient than rote-memorizing
thousands of slightly different pictures, especially when the pics
change due to fashion or some designer's whim every few years.

Brilliant!

Craig Sanders

yeah, well, there's a reason why our culture developed alphabetic languages

Braiam

@slm this is a old comment in this Q that result the problem was a bug, should I just do an answer or what? unix.stackexchange.com/q/4992/41104

terdon

12:43 AM

In their defense, that really is a feature and not a bug. I mean the program is not really broken

it is as far as you're concerned but it will still view pdfs

@Braiam sure, why not.

Craig Sanders

@terdon - i see it as an accessibility issue.

i really do have great difficulty interpreting all but the most obvious icons.

terdon

Fair enough, and I agree

I just wonder if bad UI design is a bug

Craig Sanders

breaking stuff that used to work is a bug

slm

@Braiam - i wouldn't bother at this point, it's moot given the age of the distro, it's no longer actively supported

terdon

yeah, and if it renders it unusable for you it's a bug

Craig Sanders

12:47 AM

it used to be that i could not care what their stupid icons looked like because I had ticked the "show text buttons" checkbox.

slm

@CraigSanders - or you could change them to whatever you wanted

Braiam

actually, lost functionality is a bug...

Craig Sanders

@slm how?

and i don't want other icons, i want text

slm

@CraigSanders - change the icons in an app

before

Braiam

things are no good... I don't know how the heck to program a universal remote control... and manual is nowhere to be found...

Craig Sanders

12:49 AM

you mean i could draw my own icons, hack the source and recompile it to use my own set of icons? wow. so thoughtful of gnome devs to give me that option.

terdon

heh

assuming these are standard icons, you might not need to touch the source

Craig Sanders

my brain will explode if i have to go that deep down the gnome rabbit hole to find out how to do that. if it's even possible which is unlikely because it sounds suspiciously like configurability or an option, and those things are forbidden.

slm

muktware.com/2013/07/…

Craig Sanders

(explode with rage, at least - i don't want to have to care about desktop icons and shit)

slm

reviews fedora 19

seems like they're moving towards unity

Braiam

12:53 AM

that made me remember this question

terdon

@slm seriously? RH is going to use unity?

Braiam

I managed to do it... but then the path was enterely off and everything broke down...

slm

@terdon - sorry no it looks like it

the ui

terdon

@CraigSanders did you see this? A perfect example:

1

Q: Disable Cinnamon volume applet's sound when changing volume

I recently updated my Linux Mint Debian Edition to update pack 7. Since then, every time I change the volume by scrolling on the volume applet that is on my panel, an annoying beep is played. Similar to the behavior of OSX when changing volume. I have never understood the point of this, it mean...

Craig Sanders

you should make it flash the screen a dozen times or so as well as beep, just in case you didn't notice that you were changing the volume

slm

12:58 AM

@CraigSanders - lol

terdon

I'd always laughed at the OSX fann boys for that really annoying sound the macs have when changing the volume

and they added it to my desktop!

Braiam

the most annoying thing is that you have to dirty your hands to modify things in the DM...

btw @terdon that should not be hardcoded... :(

terdon

Oh bugger, sorry, I was thinking about the sound that gnome-screensaver makes, the cinnamon one is irrelevant here

Craig Sanders

the really annoying thing is that hacks like that are not easily reproduced if you work on multiple systems and, worse, they'll get trashed the next time you upgrade cinnamon packages. because hacking code is not configuration.

terdon

I meant this one:

3

Q: How can I disable the shutter sound of gnome-screenshot?

After a recent update of my LMDE, the gnome-screenshot tool started making an annoying camera shutter noise every time a screenshot is taken. This is both annoying and startling (especially if you happen to be wearing earphones when taking the screenshot). I checked the man page of gnome-screens...

gnome audio desktop-environment cinnamon

@CraigSanders yeah, but at least these things are little javascript scripts

very easy to edit and they're not even part of the cinnamon trunk, they're applets

Craig Sanders

1:02 AM

i'm tempted to put in an answer to that Q saying that gnome devs are just complying with anti-upskirt legislation.

terdon

The issue with gnome-screenshot is much more annoying

Hah!

anti-upskirt indeed

Craig Sanders

lots of countries have passed laws saying that camers must make a sound when taking a photo

terdon

hmm, anyone who can manage to sneak my laptop under a girl's skirt deserves the photo!

By the way, any of you guys have any ideas about this one:

0

Q: dual boot windows XP/debian, I can't boot windows

I tried to set up a dual boot windows xp/debian. I installed Debian after windows, and now I can't boot windows xp. I have grub2. I tried to directly modify /boot/grub/grub.cfg with menuentry "WinXP" { set root=(hd0, gpt1) insmod chain chainloader +1 } but I can't make that work. When I sele...

debian boot dual-boot grub2 gpt

The OP's left a lot of comments but as far as I can tell the issue is that XP won't boot from gpt

Braiam

@terdon the line that reads insmod part_gpt indicates, without doubts, that is a GPT disk...

terdon

@Braiam so does the fdisk output.

I know, I've tried to tell the OP

Braiam

1:09 AM

don't say "no" just tell that she should use MBR.... some people reacts wrongly when one tells them "no"

terdon

I've never used GPT so I have no idea how to guide someone with the transition or even how to do it without data loss.

Braiam

the sure kill way, start from scratch....

slm

gpt is similar to fdisk's mbr

ibm.com/developerworks/library/l-gpt

terdon

yeah but I've never used it is all

@slm is it me or is there something very weird in that partition table? Look at the start of the windows partition

Braiam

@terdon another pony askubuntu.com/q/353328/169736 ?

I'm believing is the same wuss

terdon

1:17 AM

:)

I want to know , I also want to know

Braiam

Ubuntu (operating system)

Ubuntu ( ) is an operating system based on the Linux kernel and the Linux distribution Debian, with Unity as its default desktop environment. It is distributed as free and open source software. It is named after the Southern African philosophy of ubuntu (literally, "human-ness"), which often is translated as "humanity towards others" or "the belief in a universal bond of sharing that connects all humanity". According to 2012 online surveys, Ubuntu is the most popular Linux distribution on desktop and laptop personal computers,{{cite web|last=Zachte|first=Eric|title=Wikimedia Traffic A...

slm

you mean this line?
/dev/sda4 16128 204796619 102390246 7 HPFS/NTFS/exFAT

terdon

@slm just the fact that sda4 is actually the first partition. Shouldn't it sda1 be the first?

slm

This is stuff that you shouldn't do to a disk in the first place, it's just stupid

Braiam

no, it depends of the order of creation....

terdon

1:21 AM

well, second actually but anyway, sda1 starts right after sda4

Braiam

I don't have sda6 for example ;)

terdon

@Braiam the time? Seriously?

Braiam

@terdon read my edit... says "order" :P

terdon

@Braiam yeah I understood. But she just rewrote the partition table, I would have expected it to name the 1st partition on the disk sda1 and take it from there

slm

if it's gpt i don't think you can use fdisk. for one if the partitions are larger then 2tb the numbers start to look weird and make no sense

terdon

1:22 AM

instead, sda1 begins right after sda4

@slm apparently she has converted back to mbr

slm

some fruit is rotten on the vine to begin with and should be left to wither

terdon

Deserves an upvote anyway, the OP has definitely shown effort

Craig Sanders

@Braiam - heretic!!! the miracle happens before the developers work on the kernel, not after.

Braiam

@terdon again, the order of creation is all that matters, you could create your first partition (sda1) at the end of the disk, and it wouldn't matter

terdon

@Braiam but if this was all done in the same operation, the first partition to be created would also be the first partition of the disk

slm

1:24 AM

what braiams is saying makes some sense, they could've made the extend partition and then gave out space within it

Braiam

not necessarily... I would play with my usb now, if I'm not afraid that the cycles will burns out

terdon

ok, I'll take you guys' word for it

Braiam

I mean, the sdaX is arbitrary and decided by the order of creation of the partitions, it takes its number from the order in the partition table rather than the physical disk

slm

sda4-6 are inside the extended partition if this is mbr

Braiam

that's why fdisk reports "Partition table entries are not in disk order"

slm

1:27 AM

hence why the numbers starts overf for sda4

i rarely see this stuff pulled off right and then you get Q's like this, hence why it's just a bad idea

Craig Sanders

does windows get confused by unusual partition order?

linux can cope, but can windows...?

slm

i think it get's upset when the mbr's bootloader for the disk isn't the windows one

Braiam

@CraigSanders windows won't boot in a logical partition...

slm

this ordering isn't helping things

See i never would've even thought to try that, it's just like playing with fire

Craig Sanders

@slm - nah, it copes with grub in the MBR just fine

@Braiam - sda4 isn't in the extended partition.

slm

1:30 AM

you have to do the chainloader+1 to get it working

sda3 is

sda4 is the 1st partition inside it

Craig Sanders

a partition table this messed up takes real effort, it doesn't just happen by accident.

nope. sda4 is from 16128 to 204796619

sda3 (extended) is from 271906814 to 488397167

slm

ah you'd be right

you have to do this kinda hoop jumping, it's just stupid wastes of time to me: sousuke.org/wiki/Installing_Windows_on_a_logical_partition

Craig Sanders

i think someone's been playing with gparted without a clue what they're doing.

slm

yes you can frankenstein the disk if you want but why?

k I'm stepping away for a while, night

Craig Sanders

frankenstein is not the f verb i'd use in this context.

Braiam

1:34 AM

@CraigSanders isn't suprisily that it fails in other matters...

terdon

1:49 AM

@CraigSanders yeah, that's what I was referring to before

Anyway, if I remember correctly, XP needs to be in the 1st, primary partition or it won't boot

Braiam

love this guy bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/1108637/…

terdon

@Braiam wow I don't think I've ever used backspace to go to the previous page in a browser

I don't remember what I did before Alt-left but backspace is for deleting

Pradeep Gupta

3:15 PM

Can anyone answer my question related to nginx?

0

Q: How To Use User Directories With Nginx

I am using Debian based host and using Nginx and PHP-FPM, I wants to enable user directories in nginx and wants multiuser support also. That means when Alex open www.example.com/rutorrent , This should point to his own version of php script located at /home/alex/www/rutorrent and when Bob will op...

nginx php-fpm

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