Programmers Town Hall Chat

Rebecca Chernoff

9:52 PM

We'll get started shortly. (:

Michael Mrozek

@RebeccaChernoff I'm here now, so we can start

Rebecca Chernoff

>_<

Anna Lear

@RebeccaChernoff How come the main site says the chat's going on "now"? I feel cheated. False advertising!

SnOrfus

@MichaelMrozek: Ok. If you were a pie, what kind of pie would you be!?

Rebecca Chernoff

@AnnaLear sigh

user20683

9:54 PM

Present

Thomas Owens

I'm going to grab something to drink real quick.

Robert Harvey

@ThomasOwens You've got five minutes. :P

Make sure it's alcoholic.

Michael Mrozek

@SnOrfus I'm not running, but I look forward to the candidate's answers

Grace Note

Oh, hey, I don't have to change my image this time.

Morons

The correct answer to the "pie" question is 3.14

Yannis Rizos

9:56 PM

Hello everyone! it's midnight here, so if at some point I stop responding I've probably dozed off...

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey Not yet. Maybe later, after the day that I had.

SnOrfus

Well played.

BlackJack

My 1st town hall meeting. Pretty psyched :)

Robert Harvey

Obama won't be here, so....

Thomas Owens

So, why do we only have these around moderator elections, again?

I don't think I've ever seen so many people in a chat room at the same time.

Rebecca Chernoff

9:57 PM

y'all can set up chat events whenever you want.

SnOrfus

technically we don't... chat is always available.

user20683

@Morons actually pie = 8.539734222673567065463550869546574495034888535765114961879601130179228611157330‌807572563869710473943913774942511677...

Robert Harvey

@ThomasOwens There's twice this many in the Teacher's Lounge right now.

Anna Lear

@WorldEngineer /facepalm

user20683

@AnnaLear this is me remember? did you expect otherwise?

Robert Harvey

9:58 PM

@WorldEngineer pie fail

Glenn Nelson

@WorldEngineer I think your missing a few digits there at the end.

you're

user20683

pi(e)

Anna Lear

@WorldEngineer expect? no. hope? maaaaaybe. ;)

Robert Harvey

@GlennNelson ... breaking up. OK I'll be quiet now.

Rebecca Chernoff

okies

let's rock and roll! (:

ChrisF

10:00 PM

@GlennNelson You can edit your last message (for about 5 minutes) just press the up arrow.

Robert Harvey

[fanfare]

Morons

I think its unfair that voting started before this town hall.. we should nullify all votes so far

Rebecca Chernoff

Welcome to the Programmers Stack Exchange Town Hall Chat

Glenn Nelson

Sorry, I'm still at work and up to my neck in Hudson configs.

Rebecca Chernoff

We're just here to get to know the candidates and ask questions regarding the candidates views on moderation that may help in voting.

A few notes about the format:

The format is open, feel free to ask your question(s) unprompted, however please be mindful of whether or not candidates have answered the previous questions so that they don't get behind and start missing questions. Other than that, feel free to jump in.

Candidates, please use the reply feature so that questions and their answers are linked together. (Hover your mouse over the left of the message, click the down arrow, click reply)

if you don't, I can't protect you from @timstone

Robert Harvey

10:01 PM

[obligatory remark about horsing around]

Rebecca Chernoff

When a question is asked, I'll star it - please star it yourself also to help! Please save stars for the questions so that candidates can refer to the star list to make sure they haven't missed a question.

Andrew

@Morons People can change their votes, can't they? That seems more convenient than just nullifying all votes.

Rebecca Chernoff

We will be creating a digest version of the town hall chat after it is completed. This digest will take the form of a question on meta, containing all the questions asked as well as their answers for easier reading.

There's a system message up on the site, so we may get some stragglers joining us.

ChrisF

@Andrew Yes votes can be changed.

Rebecca Chernoff

The candidates I see here are: @SnOrfus, @YannisRizos, @WorldEngineer, @GlennNelson, @ThomasOwens.

With that, I think I've got all my initial messages, so I open the floor to y'all. Who has a question to start us off? (:

ChrisF

10:02 PM

I cleared out the stars from the last Town Hall Chat so we're starting with a blank sheet

user2334

How do you feel about Programmers today? Headed in the right direction? Wrong direction? Needs a lot of work, or not so much?

Rebecca Chernoff

@ChrisF thanks (:

Glenn Nelson

@MarkTrapp Generally, we're in the right direction. I just think we need a bit of refinement in what qualifies as on or off topic.

Thomas Owens

@MarkTrapp I think it's going in the right direction. There's always plenty of things to do, though. I see the blog being discussed again. You (Mark) have a great idea for keeping tag cleanups organized so they can continue. I would like to see some topicality cleanup, though, to reduce some ambiguities.

Anna Lear

@GlennNelson What sort of refinement do you have in mind?

Yannis Rizos

10:05 PM

@MarkTrapp Well, I have no idea if it will be the right direction in the long run, but I like where we are heading. We do need a lot of work, especially with cleaning up our broken windows. Lately we've been doing a lot of work clarifying the FAQ, there's always room for improvement, but I think we are very near "good enough"...

user20683

@MarkTrapp I think it is a little of both. Mostly the right direction, we've risen out the quagmire that was the beginning of the site but we are still seen as rather brutal or elitist toward new users even if that response is warranted. We also get great deal of misunderstanding in terms of the site's purpose and scope. Getting Stack Overflow to quit using us as a dumping ground is definitely a top priority. Getting some kind of extremely clear "algorithmic" asking guide should be done.

ChrisF

How do you think being a moderator will affect your voting and posting patterns?

Glenn Nelson

@AnnaLear I just feel that there is not a true consensus on where the line is drawn in the sand. There are guidelines, and they are largely fine, but it seems as though what one may consider fine another considers off-topic is not certain.

SnOrfus

@MarkTrapp I'm still here, so I'm quite happy. On/Off topic has been a controversy for a long time, for better or worse. At best it keeps a focus on certain topics, at worst it can drive away some topics and askers that are programming/programmer related that are very interesting and insightful.

Morons

Should we be encouraging more “High level” Questions? I personally feel there is a lack of design\architecture type questions.. if yes, how?

Yannis Rizos

10:06 PM

@ChrisF The thing I will miss the most is the non binding close vote... When it comes to up/down voting I don't think there will be much to change.

SnOrfus

@ChrisF No affect. I upvote what I feel is interesting, I vote to close what I feel is off-topic. It's likely that I'll upvote an interesting question, and vote to close as off-topic. I downvote what I feel is harmful or very ill-informed.

Glenn Nelson

@ChrisF I would have to say I'd vote less often (to close that is) because of the binding vote.

Robert Harvey

@Morons What do you mean by "high-level" questions?

user20683

@ChrisF I don't know that it will really change them all that much. I will provide more detail about why I post, I will definitely think more before I take action on bad posts as my actions will now reflect the community rather than just me. My posting will stay about the same, I'll answer when I have an answer and ask a question when I have one.

Anna Lear

What will you do if the community can't or won't vote on a question that falls outside the Stack Exchange/site guidelines?

Morons

10:08 PM

@RobertHarvey Real System Design\Architecture type questions

ChrisF

@SnOrfus So even if you're the first to see an off topic question you'll vote despite it being binding? Wouldn't it be better to wait for other members of the community to vote first?

Thomas Owens

@ChrisF I don't see it doesn't affect my answering or voting that much. It won't affect the content of any answers, that's for sure. Depending on the current state of the site, I might choose to moderate instead of answer, and if someone else posts a really good answer before I get a chance to answer, I'll just comment and upvote.

user20683

@Morons I think our name is partially to blame, this is not "Software Engineering.SE". I do think we could address that with more specifics in the FAQ and maybe something along the lines of a "question of the week" and set it to architecture topics for a while.

Glenn Nelson

@AnnaLear It depends on just how far. If it is total mismatch for the site, I would be inclined to close/migrate/delete depending on the context. If it is a "fringe" question, I say let the community be the judge on that one.

BlackJack

How can we get more users involved in community efforts? For example, it was mentioned earlier that we'll have more organized tag clean-up. How can we encourage newer/younger members (such as myself) to participate?

Thomas Owens

10:09 PM

@Morons I don't know if there's anything that you can do to force questions. Perhaps looking at themed weeks for asking and answering questions in a particular category might be an answer, as it has worked on other SE sites. However, I want to make sue the questions stay real and not forced or pressured.

SnOrfus

@ChrisF It may depend on the question, but for the average case, the rules are fairly 'set in stone' so no.

Yannis Rizos

@AnnaLear I think it's pretty clear to everyone that moderators are supposed to be the one's making the unpopular decisions. If I honestly believe that a question is outside the scope of the site, or otherwise troublesome, I will close it. If it's a borderline question, I'll probably wait for a couple of close votes or a few flags. If there's anywhere else it fits, I'll probably ask their mods before migrating.

user20683

@AnnaLear I'll try and address the question if it a near miss, get the poster to change it to something acceptable. Otherwise I will go ahead and purge it if it is way off base whilst providing a precise reason as to why.

Glenn Nelson

@BlackJack Lead by example. Additionally, I think have providing clear direction on the objectives of a cleanup will help encourage new participants who may not be sure of what the proper actions are.

Thomas Owens

@AnnaLear If it's extremely obvious or needs action, I would close or delete as appropriate. However, I would tend to defer to the community. I don't want to be the only close vote on a question, though, unless it's absolutely necessary - I think seeing questions closed by fewer than 3 non-moderators looks bad (it isn't in actuality, but has that appearance).

SnOrfus

10:11 PM

@AnnaLear The site guidelines are the guidelines. It's my view that debating them is left to meta and it's a mod's responsibility to vote-to-close in line with the guidelines set forth.

user20683

@BlackJack A great many users don't check meta from what I can tell so it might behoove us to have some way of encouraging meta discussion. I do think leading by example is important but at the same time we have a lot of veteran users who are already active on meta. I think meta needs to seem to matter to new users in a way that it may not now.

Yannis Rizos

@Morons I would like that, but I don't think it's part of a moderators responsibilities to encourage a higher level of questions.

Thomas Owens

@BlackJack I agree with @GlennNelson - lead by example. Setting down good examples is the best way. That means moderators and non-moderators alike. Even if I don't get a diamond mod position, I still plan on helping with cleanups, writing tag wikis, meta discussions, and the blog.

Robert Harvey

How will your moderation style differ from the existing mods? How will the site change as a result of the way your style differs?

psr

@YannisRizos - It's pretty clear to everyone that moderators are supposed to be the one's making the unpopular decisions? Isn't that a logical contradiction? If it's clear to everyone isn't it popular by definition? What do you mean?

Glenn Nelson

10:13 PM

@RobertHarvey As I mentioned in my "speech" on the election page, I will moderate moderately, taking action where only definitively necessary.

Anna Lear

@psr The decisions aren't popular, but the fact that moderators make them is clear. Does that help?

SnOrfus

@RobertHarvey I'm not sure what you mean by 'style'

Jarrod

@SnOrfus So would say that you take more of a "policeman" moderator view, rather than a "judge" view?

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey I'm going to try to defer to the community as much as I can. For example, minimizing the number of times I close a question without at least two or three other members voting first, or if I notice a trend, raise a question on Meta.

Morons

@JoshK I know, i was one of the Volunteers

Yannis Rizos

10:15 PM

@psr A question may be extremely popular, but that has nothing to do with how a moderator should handle it.

Robert Harvey

@SnOrfus When you decided to become a mod, you must have had the notion, "If I ever become a mod, here's what I'll do differently."

SnOrfus

@Jarrod I'd like to think of it as more of a traffic cop. Directing people to better questions/answers and stopping traffic if things are going to get messy.

user2334

What do you think the moderator's role is in community building? Should they stick to the janitorial duties, or be actively involved in the decision making process and promotion of the site?

user20683

@RobertHarvey I refuse to use downvotes and I try to explain in detail why things happen and what to do about them if it is possible to do something about it. I want questions to be answered even if they are bad fits. I do realize that there are people who will never be able ask a good question but I think there are a great deal more who can be shaped into good questioners. I generally refer to community will but people get angry and vindictive, as a moderator I can't let emotion cloud my judgement.

Andrew

To follow @AnnaLear's question: There is an apparent dichotomy between the site being a "community" site and a site governed by a set of "guidelines." In theory, the guidelines are set by the community, so governing by the guidelines should be governing by the community. If that were actually the case, @AnnaLear's question would be meaningless. When the community, or at least a vocal subset of the community, appears to be at odds with the guidelines, how do you resolve the conflict?

psr

10:16 PM

@AnnaLear - No. Not when "supposed to be" is part of the phrasing.

SnOrfus

@RobertHarvey Not really. It was a bit of the opposite actually. I see people that I admire for their technical skills, people skills and community involvement - and aspire to emulate it. Will my personality come through? Certainly, but I can't say how that will affect my moderating style.

Thomas Owens

@MarkTrapp When it comes to making decisions, the voice of a moderator shouldn't be any stronger than anyone else in the community. The only difference between a diamond moderator and anyone else is that they have access to tools to help keep the community moving forward in times of crisis.

Glenn Nelson

@MarkTrapp The moderator should ideally be both a user and a "janitor". Any site needs some level of cleaning up, but should also be involved in promotion of the site which is just as important as cleaning in maintaining and cultivating a good community.

user20683

@MarkTrapp Moderators should act as the morale officers in the army of stack-exchange, meting out justice and encouragement in equal measure. We should be the very best that the community has to offer and try to set examples in all things. Good ideas should be taken to the next level and bad ideas should be composted into good ones or incinerated.

SnOrfus

@MarkTrapp Certainly similar to an evangelist, but I don't know what the relationship is personally between a mod and SE staff, so I wouldn't be so bold as to attempt to step on their toes.

Thomas Owens

10:18 PM

@Andrew The guidelines exist, and at any given moment in time, the community needs to function within those guidelines. However, if any user (moderator or otherwise) has a problem with those guidelines, it should be raised on meta and discussed. However, there's also the overarching goals/objectives of Stack Exchange that must be supported.

user2334

Please only star questions, not answers!

Yannis Rizos

@BlackJack I've noticed a couple of newer users doing some great edits, so I approached them through chat and gave some basic guidelines, mostly pointing out to relevant meta discussions. I'd like to do that in a more organized effort, possibly chat events for major cleanup efforts...

Thomas Owens

@Andrew What I would like to see is more of a dialog between moderators and the rest of the community, though. These types of town halls on a regular basis. I'm just beginning to see the actual value of the chat, so I think that putting everyone in the same location at a coordinated time might help community building (and consensus building.)

psr

@ThomasOwens - Which overarching goals of Stack exchange are you referring to and how would you support them?

user20683

@Andrew I try to get to the bottom of the reasoning behind the behavior and work out some kind of lasting solution. Care needs to be taken in both strengthening the community and living within the bounds that the stack exchange sets. It's a fine and tricky line to walk I'll admit but I feel I can handle it.

Yannis Rizos

10:21 PM

@RobertHarvey There was a similar meta question, and my answer there was that there isn't really much room for differentiation. Moderators are exception handlers and janitors, not much room for personal style...

Thomas Owens

@psr There are some guidelines in place. For example, the six guidelines for subjective questions, the desire for expert answers, and the general making the Internet a better place. Regardless of what we, as a community, decide to do, we can't break any rules or guidelines set down by a higher power.

BlackJack

Say a user posts 3-4 questions which are all closed for being off-topic. If this user continues posting questions that are somewhat related but still off topic, even after you show them the FAQ and all that, what do you do with them, if anything at all?

Glenn Nelson

@BlackJack I'm not sure what the exact facilities are, but if after explaining to the user (and making sure they understand the situation) I would have to perform a temporary ban in some form.

user20683

@BlackJack As far as I'm aware users who abuse the stack exchange can be banned but I'd definitely take serious care to make sure that we were doing so correctly and not just repeatedly misunderstanding each other.

Thomas Owens

@BlackJack At that point, I believe there are moderator (or automatic) methods for limiting their posting ability. It really would be required at that point. One or two questions, especially borderline ones, I can see. But after 3 or 4, you should have learned and stronger action is needed.

user2334

10:24 PM

Many of the candidates have very low flag counts and very low meta participation. Do you see flagging and meta participation as an important part of being part of the community? Why or why not?

Yannis Rizos

@MarkTrapp Janitorial duties should be a priority. But moderators are also users, and they should be involved in the decision making process as much as everyone. By default (?!) moderators are experienced users and their opinion may carry a bit more weight, but that has (or should have) nothing to do with the diamond...

Thomas Owens

@MarkTrapp Flagging, not so much. I have less than 50 flags because I only flag things that need immediate or drastic action. Most of the time, the community can take care of things on their own, without moderator intervention. Meta is far more important since that's how the community is defined.

SnOrfus

@BlackJack Tough call. I've personally had trouble adapting to the six guidelines, so in the past a number of my questions were closed. In the end, there needs to be a cut-off point where it can be determined that the person is posting maliciously and if the case, banning is an option that I'd consider with caution (depending on the content of the questions). If it's deemed not malicious, continuing to close their questions by vote of the community seems reasonable to me.

Glenn Nelson

@MarkTrapp I do see flagging and meta as important. Regarding flagging, unless I saw something that was truly inappropriate, I used my "vote to close" option. Meta is what plays a role in how the site is run which I feel is more important. As for my low count on the matter, that is simply my lack of formal involvement (I've tended to lurk in the past) but regardless of the outcome of the election, I intend to become much more involved in Programmers overall.

Karl Bielefeldt

@BlackJack @BlackJack, one thing that often happens is questions are closed for being off topic, but there's a part of the question that's on topic. I would try to edit to make it on topic, or redirect to a better place to ask, rather than just close and say "those questions aren't welcome here." Only after that doesn't work would I consider reprimands like temporary bans.

Rebecca Chernoff

10:27 PM

let's stay on topic please.

user20683

@MarkTrapp I think flagging is definitely an important task, without it, moderation would be exhausting and difficult to keep up with bad posts. It gives new users a feeling that they can stop bad stuff from happening. Meta is definitely important but as I said in reference for other questions, I post when I have a question and answer when I have an answer. I do read through meta to make sure that I'm keeping up though and encourage others to do likewise.

SnOrfus

@MarkTrapp There are many ways to participate. Flagging and meta are some of the ways. Do I believe that moderator status requires a higher level of such participation? Yes.

Jarrod

How much time do you feel you can dedicate to P.SE on average? And do you feel that it is an appropriate amount of time to properly moderate the site?

Michael Mrozek

A diamond will be attached to everything you say and have said in the past, including questions, answers and comments. Everything you will do will be seen under a different light. How do you feel about that?

Andrew

Some people find it important to ensure that all people who participate in a community process feel they are heard and considered, even when the final decision in a matter does not go their way. Rules of Parliamentary Procedure, for instance, are instituted in part for this reason (though not necessarily here). How will you attempt to ensure that people feel they are being heard and considered when attempting to shape the community through, for example, meta?

SnOrfus

10:30 PM

@MichaelMrozek Excited.

Karl Bielefeldt

@MarkTrapp I have generally reserved flags for things that can't be addressed via other means, like spam or not real answers. I prefer voting to close, editing, or commenting as a means of participation in site improvement.

Yannis Rizos

@BlackJack It's always a per case decision. If there are a few helpful comments by community members (moderators or not, it doesn't really matter) and the user failed to improve his / her participation after a sensible amount of time, a temporary suspension would be justified.

user20683

@Jarrod I have a window open to stack exchange a huge amount of the time. Pretty much any time I'm on a computer that I own I'm on P.SE. I'd say that's enough time to moderate it.

Morons

As a Balance of Power.. Do you feel that upon reaching a certain reputation a privilege should be given that allows the user to view moderator activities?

Glenn Nelson

@Jarrod I can dedicate an hour or so in the morning, and mid-day. The evening allows for more time as well. I feel at least 2-3 hours would be a good amount for both moderation and participation in general.

Rebecca Chernoff

10:31 PM

don't forget to give candidates a chance to answer the questions (:

Robert Harvey

@Morons Moderator actions are always completely visible (except stats and private mod messages). Are you asking about something else?

Thomas Owens

@Jarrod Various SE sites are usually open in a browser when I'm at work. I pop on in when I need to jump out of work for a few minutes. SE sites are usually open when I'm at home, too. If I was on and things needed attention, or there were new interesting posts (on main or meta), I'd respond. As a diamond mod, I'd probably spend more time here than on any other SE site (I already do, but it would shift more).

SnOrfus

@Morons A moderators activities can be viewed by anyone of any reputation via our profiles, unless you meant something else?

Karl Bielefeldt

@MarkTrapp As for meta, I read meta far more often than I post, mostly because there are usually sufficient answers given, or I don't feel I'm the right person to answer. If I were a moderator, I would feel like "the right person" much more often.

Thomas Owens

@MichaelMrozek Not a problem at all. I have never said anything that isn't fully honest and my thoughts.

Morons

10:32 PM

@snorfus, robert Really? i didn't know that..

SnOrfus

@Jarrod 2-4 hours a day on average. I can't say for certain, but that seems sufficient for P.SE. I'd be interested to hear from existing mods to hear if they think that's accurate.

user20683

@MichaelMrozek I'm entirely okay with that. I've nothing to hide and I do still update some of my better old answers to make them ever more useful. I realize that I will probably be resented more by many people but being a moderator is a duty and an honor not some weekend cruise. I will put a note in my profile to treat my oldest posts with a grain of salt since I was learning the ropes here at the time as to not mislead people.

ChrisF

@SnOrfus I don't keep track. I tend to moderate in the odd minutes I have during the day when I'm waiting for builds/inspiration.

SnOrfus

@Morons programmers.stackexchange.com/users/1554/snorfus be my guest :)

kiamlaluno

In which areas do you think that a Stack Exchange site should allow non 10k users to participate more in the decisions?

user2334

10:35 PM

@SnOrfus ~an hour a day, usually

SnOrfus

@MarkTrapp I find that surprising. You seem to do a lot in that hour.

Karl Bielefeldt

@Jarrod I check it several times per day, and am often the first or second close vote, answer, or comment, so I think I'm getting to the site often enough to moderate effectively.

Anna Lear

@SnOrfus I probably spent 15-20 hours a week on SE... maybe half that on actual moderation. I'm not sure anymore.

Glenn Nelson

@kiamlaluno I think one of the most important things is deciding what constitutes on-topic and what is not, which a user can do with 3.000 reputation.

Thomas Owens

@kiamlaluno What exactly do you mean? Anyone can participate on Meta. The big thing is that as you are trusted by the community to ask good questions and give good answers, you get more tools. But everyone can participate fully in the core functionality and decision making.

Josh K

10:36 PM

@SnOrfus Typically about an hour total a day. Maybe less. I normally drop in 3-4 times a day and if something comes up I check it. That's why flags rock, it's a simple little note that I need to check something instead of digging through stats to find something.

SnOrfus

@kiamlaluno I think the system works well as it is now in that regard.

user20683

@kiamlaluno As someone with less than 10k, I don't feel like I am being shorted on discussions or not having my voice heard.

kiamlaluno

@ThomasOwens For example, 5k users don't see the flagged posts. I am referring to the main site, not the meta site.

user2334

As Robert Harvey alluded to, you'll be joining an existing moderation team, unlike the last election. Do you see yourself fitting in to the existing team, or going against the grain?

Thomas Owens

@kiamlaluno I'm perfectly fine with that. Until someone is more familiar and comfortable with the community, there's no need to give someone access to more powerful community management/participation tools.

user20683

10:39 PM

@MarkTrapp I see myself doing a bit of both. I like the current mods in terms of discussions I've had with them but I'm sure there will be the odd conflict in terms what should or shouldn't be done at a given point in time. Experience will be an excellent teacher.

Karl Bielefeldt

@MichaelMrozek I've always made how my actions reflect on the site a major consideration, because I want it to be a site people come back to. I like to think I already behave as if my activity is in the spotlight, and having a diamond by my name wouldn't change that.

Glenn Nelson

@MarkTrapp I think the current moderation team has done a fine job and will continue to do so. I personally don't agree on the level of closing questions that are on the margin, but I don't see that being a conflict.

Yannis Rizos

@Jarrod About an hour per day, for moderation duties. So far I'm spending about a couple of hours each day, and if there's need for more time for moderation, well I'll remove Sceptics and Code Review from my bookmarks...

Anna Lear

And further to Mark's question, do you plan to be available in chat for frequent communication or do you prefer to be more autonomous?

Steve Jackson

What facet of Programmers.SE do you feel deserves the most attention / needs improvement? Tags, community building, on-topic definition, etc?

SnOrfus

10:40 PM

@MarkTrapp Depends on the moderator. I've disagreed with you personally a number of times on the site and meta, while the opposite is the case with some other mods. I've always had a good amount of respect for both however and when I haven't agreed, I've enjoyed the discussion.

Thomas Owens

@MarkTrapp I've tended to have some very...strong (good word, guys) opinions on various policies and how things should be. However, once the community makes a decision, I'll fall into line and support it as appropriate. So in a discussion, I might go against the grain, but I'd fall in line when it comes to upholding those decisions.

SnOrfus

@AnnaLear I haven't been in chat much, but I'm not averse to it at all if it's required or needed.

Glenn Nelson

@AnnaLear I think being a monitor warrants an active communication between other members of the site and moderators. That said being available in-chat is a must.

user20683

@AnnaLear I basically live in chat so I'm always up for a good talk. I can act as my own agent when necessary as well.

Thomas Owens

@AnnaLear Chat, probably not so much. If there were chat events, I would be around. I wouldn't be against more activity though. I'd be more responsive on Meta (and anyone can ping me via email if they want my input or take on a question - it's already in my profile).

Glenn Nelson

10:42 PM

@SteveJackson A better understanding of what is on-topic throughout the entire site is a must and needs work.

Yannis Rizos

@MarkTrapp Well, having over 300 helpful flags, you'll allow me to skip that one...

kiamlaluno

What is the main problem (including problems on how users use the site) that you actually see in the site you would be moderating, if you are elected moderator?

Thomas Owens

@SteveJackson Tags and on-topic definition first. Broken windows, and all that. Topicality is 80% there, but there are ambiguities. Community building needs to be on going thing that's never going to be done.

SnOrfus

@SteveJackson Tough call. The community seems to be most vocal about on-topic definition, but I don't know if it's the most important. Being an active member and contributing the best quality possible as a user is probably most important.

Karl Bielefeldt

@MarkTrapp I think my meta answer here sums up how I will fit in perfectly. When I disagree with official policy, I will say so, but I'm still supportive of the consensus. In other words, I can disagree without being disagreeable.

Anna Lear

10:43 PM

@kiamlaluno Seems like Steve just asked that. Are you aiming for something different?

user20683

@SteveJackson I think interception of bad questions before they get asked is a good idea. People ask a lot of the same bad questions over and over. Some way of providing a stock answer that doesn't feel negative along with a close would be good.

kiamlaluno

@AnnaLear I was referring to problems with the users using the site too.

Thomas Owens

@kiamlaluno Are you referring to people? Separate the people from the problem. People usually aren't the problem, it's usually communication.

Yannis Rizos

@MichaelMrozek I'll probably be a bit more careful & detailed in covering all my bases, before sharing my opinion.

user20683

@kiamlaluno The main problem I see is a misunderstanding what it is that programmers is about. We tend to see bad posts, react to them and that gives an impression that we are elitist/evil. This in turn turns away many people who might be given valuable contributors if they could be steered in the right direction without scaring them off.

Karl Bielefeldt

10:45 PM

@AnnaLear I have not spent much time in chat before because honestly, there's not often much going on. If elected moderator, I would make an effort to keep a chat window open anyway, because I think that's part of the job.

Steve Jackson

@WorldEngineer How would you steer them in the right direction and avoid dismissing their question as a "same old" bad question?

Yannis Rizos

@Morons It's not about balance of power. Moderators have a very well defined set of responsibilities, and all their activities are monitored constantly.

user2334

Why do you want to be a moderator? What motivated you to take this big leap?

user20683

@SteveJackson Have some guides ask to exactly why bad questions are bad, not just question off topic/question bad. Explain carefully why it is that there question is bad and try and help them make it better. I realize that it means more work for me but I'm willing to take that on.

Yannis Rizos

@AnnaLear Chat! Chat! Chat! I always have a tab open in chat as a user, and I don't see a reason to change that habit as a moderator.

Anna Lear

10:48 PM

Suppose that someone objects to one of your actions and makes an incensed meta post calling you out. How would you handle this situation?

Rebecca Chernoff

10 minutes, folks!

Glenn Nelson

@MarkTrapp A desire to become more active in something that I consider to be a great part of the internet. I've learned a good bit from this site and continue to offer what I can when I can

SnOrfus

@AnnaLear They're free to do that. That's what meta is for. I'd answer (re)stating my viewpoint or the rationale behind the decision and let the meta community further decide.

Jarrod

A very wide range of programming topics are discussed on this site - do you feel you have a wide enough range of experience in the world of programming to appropriately guide and moderate topics that you might not necessarily be well versed in?

user20683

@MarkTrapp I want to help get this site into a form where we are no longer seen as SO's dumping ground or those meanies over on programmers. I love being on this site and feel that this is a natural next step in my service toward helping people get questions answered.

kiamlaluno

10:50 PM

Do you think that participating on Meta Stack Overflow helps with being a better moderator?

Thomas Owens

@MarkTrapp I've been a member of Programmers since Day 1. I saw it go from this confused mess of who knows to one of the most interesting SE sites out there. I just want the opportunity to take on a new role in the community to make it more awesome. Regardless of the outcome, I still plan on participating on the main site, on meta, and in community initiatives, but hopefully the community will elect me to serve them in a new way..

Glenn Nelson

@AnnaLear Again I'm not sure what facilities moderators are provided to communicate with users, but I would do my best to explain my reasoning for my decision and do my best to answer questions or issues the user has with my decision.

Robert Harvey

@Jarrod That's a trick question.

Jarrod

@RobertHarvey Sorry, I don't mean it to be.

Karl Bielefeldt

@AnnaLear I would point to the appropriate faq entry or precedent to support my action, and give them an honest hearing, possibly reversing or modifying my decision if they make a good case.

Thomas Owens

10:51 PM

@AnnaLear First, I'd chill out a bit. Then, I'd explain my reasoning in detail and let the community decide. If, for some reason, I was out of line, I would admit my mistake and undo it (if it hadn't been undone by another mod already).

user20683

@AnnaLear Calmly, I've worked a long time in customer service. You've not seen irate until you reject returns. If I can stand my ground with someone screaming at me in real life, I can handle it on the internet.

Robert Harvey

@Jarrod I'll tell you why, after the candidates have had a chance to answer.

SnOrfus

@kiamlaluno Certainly. Some users see it as 'the complaint bucket' so addressing those complaints is a major part of the job.

user20683

@Jarrod I have a comprehensive knowledge of programming topics and software engineering. I am good at doing research quickly and accurately so if I don't know something I will know it very very soon.

Gilles

Do you think the existence of Programmers has affected the scope of Stack Overflow? Should it?

Glenn Nelson

10:52 PM

@Jarrod I suppose that would be a tough one on my part considering my young age and relative lack of experience in the industry. I think that largely, I can tell what is and what is not related to the world of programmers, but some times I will just have to step back and look into something if I am not sure of something or knowledgeable on the matter.

Yannis Rizos

@SteveJackson We haven't fully recuperated from the good old days, so I'd say that on-topic definition would be my first priority, but cleaning up our broken windows would be the best way to start. I've already volunteered for the blog as a user, and will do my best to be as much involved as a moderator, if elected.

Rebecca Chernoff

let's give the candidates a chance to catch up and answer the existing questions before we close. (:

Thomas Owens

@Jarrod I think so. I think I would bring a unique perspective to the moderation team in terms of my topic area knowledge to help better define topicality in gray areas. And if I see a gray area, I'd defer to the community members and moderators who understands the subject matter better to make an informed decision.

SnOrfus

@Jarrod I don't think anyone knows everything, but someone has to do the job of moderating. I don't necessarily think it's a moderator's job to verify the accuracy of all questions and answers. That said, I'd like to think that I'm knowledgable and more-so every day.

Karl Bielefeldt

@Jarrod I have answers in 333 tags, most with upvotes. Does that answer your question? Also, I think moderation is less about subject matter and more about site quality. You don't have to know the subject to know a bad question or answer.

user20683

10:53 PM

@kiamlaluno I think we need to make a concerted effort to be appear gracious on Meta.SO while definitely tackling the issue of out negative perception.

Glenn Nelson

@kiamlaluno I think that participating on the meta for a site will help get a better understanding of how Stack Exchange operates, as well as the particular "branch" of the network.

Thomas Owens

@Gilles Absolutely not. The act of writing code is a fraction of what I do. Well, these days, it's an insanely small fraction of what I do. There's plenty of room questions about writing code, tests, and so on. But there's also plenty of room for the whiteboard and soft issues in software development and we here fill that niche.

Yannis Rizos

@MarkTrapp I have been doing a lot of clean up work, and for the most part I enjoy it. As I wrote in my nomination stub, becoming a moderator will allow me to do what I've already been doing with a lot more flexibility. Everything else I love about the site, I can do as a user, so it has nothing to do with my desire to become a moderator.

@kiamlaluno Yes. I've started lurking around MSO a couple of months ago and I got a far better understanding of Stack Exchange than before.

Thomas Owens

@kiamlaluno Participation on MSO is important for a moderator - that's where the decisions that affect all SE sites are made. I think moderators should keep an eye on the metas of other SE sites that are related to ours to assist with the process of moving questions and guiding users to the right place to get the best answers.

Robert Harvey

Are you familiar with the protocol for migrating a question? What is the first principle?

Rebecca Chernoff

10:56 PM

Final thoughts from the candidates?

Glenn Nelson

@Gilles I honestly don't feel I can offer my opinion on that matter as I haven't concurrently spent significant time on Programmers and SO. I also did not engage on SO in a serious manner before Programmers came about so I can't offer a true opinion on any changes.

user20683

@Gilles I do think we need to make sure that SO understands what they can and can't migrate here.

Yannis Rizos

@RobertHarvey Don't migrate crap.

Glenn Nelson

@RobertHarvey My only experience with migration has been on a "vote to close & migrate manner", so not to any real extent.

Robert Harvey

@YannisRizos Very good. :)

user20683

10:57 PM

@RobertHarvey Check with the site in question before you migrate it. Read their FAQ, at least twice. Ask questions about fine lined stuff.

SnOrfus

@RobertHarvey Only with respect to "off topic - belongs on so" when voting to close.

Robert Harvey

@RebeccaChernoff If elected I will... Oh, sorry.

Rebecca Chernoff

@RobertHarvey >_<

Thomas Owens

@RebeccaChernoff Thanks for coming everyone! Get out there and vote. There are plenty of awesome candidates, and it was really hard to decide (well, my first vote was easy...). I hope you choose me to be one of the next moderators, but just get out there and get your voice heard.

SnOrfus

@RebeccaChernoff There's a good group of candidates (both here, and not here). I don't think the community can go wrong with any of us. That said, vote SnOrfus! He's better!

Morons

10:59 PM

Ok i'm back.. wha'd I miss?

Anna Lear

@Morons Scroll back?

user20683

@RebeccaChernoff I think Programmers is a great site with a garbage problem and an image problem. If elected as moderator I will do everything I can to help with those issues. Particularly tag clean-ups, new user management and pushing toward the launch and continuance of the blog. Communication is the core of what conceptual software is about. It should be the core of what we are too.

Michael Mrozek

@Morons There was oppression and censorship everywhere. It was terrifying

SnOrfus

@MichaelMrozek I cried.

Glenn Nelson

@RebeccaChernoff Programmers is a great site and a great addition to the SE network. There is a problem with inconsistency and difference of opinions, but we can work to fix it by being more active in the process either as a user or moderator.

kiamlaluno

11:00 PM

@MichaelMrozek You forgot about that group arrested, and taken in jail.

Morons

@SnOrfus if elected will you take action or cry?

SnOrfus

I'd like to thank everyone for coming out. Some good questions. I hope I didn't miss any.

@Morons Can't be both?

Andrew

@SnOrfus I think you missed my last question.

Rebecca Chernoff

alright folks, we're out of time

thanks everything for participating and best of luck to the candidates! (:

Thomas Owens

It was fun.

Rebecca Chernoff

11:02 PM

If you've missed a question, or couldn't attend, just answer now / when convenient and we'll get that in the digest.

A digest will be posted on meta tomorrow.

kiamlaluno

Now, beer and salami for everybody.

Robert Harvey

@Jarrod: Moderation has surprisingly little to do with technical knowledge. Crap content is crap content, regardless of the subject matter.

Yannis Rizos

@AnnaLear Leave the question mature for a couple of hours and then come back to it. If there is a satisfactory answer describing my actions, upvote it. If not, provide one describing my actions. If there is community consensus that my actions were incorrect, revert and apologize.

Morons

oooo but i missed the whole thing!! stupid clients and there interruptions cant we just start over?

user20683

Fun and a challenge. To all questioners I hope I did well. To everyone else, I hope I answered your implicit concerns.

Thomas Owens

11:03 PM

Thanks all. I'm out! For now. I'll be around PSE and MPSE, like always. Have a good night.

Glenn Nelson

Have a good evening everybody (and a good morning Yannis?)

ChrisF

@Morons - just post your answers to the questions as though you were here - they'll be picked up when the digest is posted.

Yannis Rizos

@Jarrod Isn't that why every member is encouraged to participate in the moderation aspects of the site? There are quite a few topics I have no clue about, and when issues arise on those topics I would either refer them to fellow moderators or wait for a sensible amount of flags / votes.

Morons

@ChrisF i Dropped out

kiamlaluno

I don't know why, but the "beer and salami" thing doesn't have much success.

user20683

11:06 PM

If anyone has any other questions for me, moderator election related or otherwise, I'll be in main chat.

Robert Harvey

@kiamlaluno You buying?

Morons

THE CLIENTS ARE INTERRUPTING AGAIN! WHY WONT THEY LEAVE ME ALONE!!!

kiamlaluno

@RobertHarvey I should know for how much users, first. ;-)

Yannis Rizos

@RebeccaChernoff Thanks for taking the time to organize this...

Nick T

To all candidates: my vote can be bought for the low, low price of 1 beer

just saying

Yannis Rizos

11:09 PM

@Gilles What is this Stack Overflow you are speaking of?

Michael Mrozek

I think it's like Programmers, but they hate fun even more

Robert Harvey

@YannisRizos She had a special console made just for this purpose. It looks a lot like the main bridge of the Starship Enterprise.

Nick T

@YannisRizos you mean Meta Stack Overflow? Is Stack Overflow a spin-off?

Robert Harvey

@NickT Programmers.SE was originally supposed to be Stack Overflow Overflow.

Yannis Rizos

@RobertHarvey Pics or it didn't happen...

user2334

11:12 PM

If you guys are having fun here, I would be remiss not to tell you about the Programmers chat room, where the fun never ends! Void where prohibited. Offer not valid in Tennessee.

Robert Harvey

Michael Mrozek

Someone should run a service that sticks rchern's face in the corner of images

Oh man, rchernify.com is available

Gilles

@MichaelMrozek quick, before she hijacks it!

Morons

ok, I'm back.. wha'd I miss?

user20683

@Morons the world ended, Ronald Reagan rose from the grave and used Joseph Stalin as a snowboard

Yannis Rizos

11:19 PM

@Morons We elected you as our new moderator. But since you weren't around to accept...

psr

@Morons - On the good side, Reagan narrowly won the Republican primary, edging out Stalin.

user20683

@Morons but as per new campaign finance rules the winner rides the loser to washington as a snowboard

user20683

ok, enough of the silly for now, I'll be in main chat

psr

@Morons - Oh and also (removed)

Morons

HAY!! No Politics! Do you want to get us banned?

AHHHAAHH!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, WILL THE PHONE PLEASE SHUT UP!! ITS ALMOST 6:30 FOR CRIPES SAKE!!!

Robert Harvey

11:23 PM

@Morons In the morning? That's a little early to start drinking, isn't it?

Morons

PM.. I want to go home. ( and I would have been home if it want for this town hall)

Rebecca Chernoff

Please keep this room clear for Town Hall Chat stuff.

Use the regular programmers chat room for anything else. (:

Morons

Or else what? you gonna use your super moderator powers and kick us out?

Robert Harvey

[sigh]

@RebeccaChernoff You should have said something before I posted a picture of your Supercollider Town Hall Chat Console™

Rebecca Chernoff

I just sat back down down. (;

Morons

11:28 PM

hehehe.. no one is listening to you :)

Rebecca Chernoff

The Whiteboard

General Discussion for softwareengineering.stackexchange.com P...

Michael Myers

That looks like a boring room

Morons

I'm going home before my phone rings again. Good night all.

Vote Pedro

Yannis Rizos

Bye all!

The Whiteboard

Transcript for

Programmers Town Hall Chat