Language Overflow

CowperKettle

03:06

> From a big-picture perspective, if we didn't possess this powerful oculomotor mechanism, particularly when blinking, our surroundings would appear shadowy, erratic and jittery, researchers said. (sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170119134546.htm)

Should it not be "if we hadn't / would have appeared?

Anonymous

03:20

Добрый вечер, @CowperKettle! :-)

Anonymous

@CowperKettle No, it's fine the way it is.

Zhengquan Bai

t seems that the old man _____ something important.A has lost B had lost C lost D would lose

It seems that the old man _____ something important.A has lost B had lost C lost D would lose

Hello, what do you think is the right answer?

Anonymous

Any of them.

Anonymous

Do you have to pick just one?

Anonymous

Choice A might be the most likely of the four, but I think they're all grammatical.

Anonymous

03:23

So it would depend on context and what meaning you want to convey, I think.

Zhengquan Bai

Thanks. It's a question from a Chinese chatting group.

CowperKettle

@snailplane Good morning, Snails (0:

Zhengquan Bai

If I have to choose one, I'd rather go with A.

Man_From_India

Good morning/evening guys!

@snailplane are you there?

I have a question.

CowperKettle

Namaste, Man!

Man_From_India

03:28

> Fo r the first time in what is considered to be an "era of ABC", something happened

In this sentence, we can't move the preposition in from its original position to before comma.

So does this make what is considered to be an era of ABC an embedded interrogative?

@CowperKettle Namaste Kettle.

Our winter is dwindling away.

CowperKettle

Our winter has entered the coldest part.

Snow will start melting exactly 60 days from now.

Man_From_India

Yay enjoy the cold.

CowperKettle

(0:

Man_From_India

Is my use from its original position to before comma correct? The way I used to before?

I have seen from behind the cloud etc, but never to before :)

Joe Pinsonault

@CowperKettle if it was phrased as "If we hadn't possessed this powerful..." it would sound like it was a description of a past event

CowperKettle

03:44

@JoePinsonault ah, thank you!

This is curious

I tend to forget some bits of grammar

Joe Pinsonault

I know, you'd think "did" would put it in the past too

Man_From_India

04:06

@snailplane my another problem is with this sentence

> For the first time that anyone can remember, the doors of the castle was open and unguarded.

What is this that? I mean if it acts as a relative element or if it is a part of an embedded clause?

If it's a relative construction, where is the gap?

Jim Reynolds

04:37

@Man_From_India It all goes together. That's my "Jim" answer.

We could instead have: For the first time--that anyone can remember--the doors ...

That could be set off in commas instead of dashes.

So, I mean, there are two ways to make grammatical sentences. Without the commas/dashes, it's "embedded in the clause", if that's the right terminology.

Man_From_India

@JimReynolds thanks Jim. But was expecting bit more than this. Hmmm kind of CGEL-way :-)

Jim Reynolds

*For the first time that anyone can remember, the doors of the castle WERE open and unguarded.* is essentially: *As far as anyone can remember, the doors WERE open*

vs *For the first time, that anyone can remember, the doors of the castle WERE open and unguarded.*is essentially *The doors were open for the first time, as far as anyone can remember*

I'm sure you'll get it from ms snail :)

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Hello!

Man_From_India

Hi @snailplane

I have some questions for you, SP

👆

Anonymous

@Man_From_India I think that it's fused relative (a.k.a. "free relative"). In the fused relative analysis, it is a special kind of noun phrase in which what is both the head of the NP and part of the relative clause it contains. In the free relative analysis, it is a headless NP consisting of just a modifier in the form of a relative clause. You're right that in is outside the NP.

Anonymous

04:48

@Man_From_India The gap is the direct object of remember. That can be replaced with which.

Man_From_India

I reformed that sentence this way -

Anonymous

If you accept that as a relative pronoun, as it is analyzed traditionally (but not by e.g. Jespersen, Huddleston & Pullum, or McCawley), then yes it acts as a relative element.

Man_From_India

> For the first time in what anyone can remember, the doors were open.

@snailplane so here in for the first time that anyone can remember , the part that anyone can remember is a PP, not an NP.

I think I need to brush up my grammar again. I forgot most of these stuffs :(

Anonymous

@Man_From_India No, that is a relative clause. [ that anyone can remember ＿＿ ]

Man_From_India

@snailplane anyone can remember [the first time]?

This doesn't make sense.

Anonymous

05:02

Yes, because of any-, but time is semantically filling the object role there.

Anonymous

> I can remember the first time I went to New York like it was yesterday.

Anonymous

You can do the same thing with just about any verb: The first sandwich anyone ever ate was quite different from the sandwiches we eat today.

Man_From_India

But semantically the examples you showed are different from what I quoted. In my sentence, it means as far as everyone can remember, the door was never open. But this is the first time they saw it open.

Damkerng T.

05:21

Hmm... I suppose we can rephrase it as The doors of the castle was open and unguarded for the first time anyone can remember.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. right. But did I get its meaning right?

Damkerng T.

Yes, I think so.

Man_From_India

Thanks.

Damkerng T.

:D

Good afternoon, everyone!

Man_From_India

It's still "Good morning" here :)

But in this case it's quite different from the book (that) I read has 10 chapters.

Damkerng T.

05:24

Oh!

Man_From_India

It's 10:55 AM here.

Damkerng T.

05:45

@Man_From_India Just throwing my thought out loud out there before leaving -- I think this is fine as well: No one can remember the first time the doors of the castle was open.

Take care, everyone!

CowperKettle

06:53

> Yesterday's Bicycle Ice Battle in the Locomotive Stadium, Yekaterinburg

Or is it at the stadium?

Anonymous

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=in+the+*+stadium%2Cat+the+*+stadi‌um%2Cin+the+*+Stadium%2Cat+the+*+Stadium%2Cin+The+*+Stadium%2Cat+The+*+Stadium&ye‌ar_start=1950&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=50&share=&direct_url=

Anonymous

Just a sec, I'll fix that link.

Anonymous

Anyway, I'm not sure. I think at might be better, but they both sound okay.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Were

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Can you quote the sentence you're talking about?

Anonymous

07:01

You've given multiple sentences with the string the first time in them, but those sentences have different grammar from one another. I didn't realize the examples were supposed to be related.

Anonymous

Which ones are we talking about?

CowperKettle

@snailplane Thank you!

e1.ru/news/spool/news_id-460396.html

Man_From_India

07:41

@snailplane here is the sentence -

> For the first time that anyone can remember, the door of the castle was open and unguarded.

This still seems very strange to me. that is a subordinator, and anyone can remember is a relative clause. Yet that anyone can remember seems like a PP and like a free relative or fused relative.

user62015

Hi!

Most of the people which (a) / have been victims of extreme violence (b)/ are too frightened to report it to the police. (c)/ No error (d)

I understand that error is in section A but what option will be fine, who or those instead of which @Man_From_India

Anonymous

07:56

@Man_From_India It is not a PP nor a free/fused relative. It is just a regular relative clause.

Anonymous

Remember is transitive.

Anonymous

The gap is in object position.

Anonymous

@user62015 Who

user62015

Thanks.

Anonymous

Those can refer to people, but it is not a relative pronoun.

Anonymous

08:15

Still unpinning WOTDs on sight. :-)

Man_From_India

08:28

@snailplane the meaning of that sentence is as far as anyone can remember, this is the first time that the door of the castle is open. Right?

CowperKettle

09:29

1

Q: The zero article in ''Game of Thrones''

Why not: ''The Game of Thrones''? The noun ''game'' is countable, and I couldn't find the explanation looking into special rules and exceptions. Anyone has an idea? Thanks in advance.

articles

Could it be because "game" is uncountable here?

Joe Pinsonault

09:48

@CowperKettle I think they just changed it for TV, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Game_of_Thrones

mike

in the book, I'm pretty sure it's referred to as a game of thrones

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Oh, right!

CowperKettle

@JoePinsonault Wow

I asked in the comments: "I wonder why it is A Tale of Two Cities but Game of Thrones, but then removed that comment.

And not it turns out it is A Game of Thrones.

Graveyard of the Pacific

The Graveyard of the Pacific is a nickname for a stretch of the coastal region in the Pacific Northwest, from Tillamook Bay on the Oregon Coast northward to Cape Scott Provincial Park on Vancouver Island. The unpredictable weather conditions and coast characteristics have caused a significant number of shipwrecks in this area. == Description == The region's seas are frequently subject to heavy and unpredictable weather year round combined with the rugged rockbound coastline, especially along Vancouver Island and its northwestern tip at Cape Scott, causing sea conditions which, since Europ...

user62015

10:19

Hi

The more scarce (a)/ any collectable (b)/ item is, the higher the price tends to be. (c)/ No Error(d)

CowperKettle

"the scarcer"?

user62015

Are you sure?

It shows section B?

CowperKettle

goo.gl/CGIZ9w

user62015

Thanks. Checking

Yes. As it shows the comprising, right?

The scarcer the higher, right?

CowperKettle

Yes

Do you have the correct answer?

Do you have the answers sheet for the test?

user62015

10:24

It shows b but you are right.

I am sure now and I understood your point, it makes sense.

CowperKettle

It shows "b" - this means that I"m wrong

Something must be wrong with any collectable.

maybe it should be collectible?

user62015

It is a part of book but it shows collectible instead of collectable

Yes.

You are right?

CowperKettle

What? I don't understand (0:

user62015

You are right.

CowperKettle

as you wish (0:

user62015

10:26

it shows we must replace "collectible" with "collectable"

So your point makes sense.

new one about "collectible" vs "collectable"

@CowperKettle Are you still with me, if not then please my last comments when you get online. Thanks.

Damkerng T.

10:45

I guess the test wants a collectible item.

user62015

And the more scarce?

or the scarcer?

I choose the scarcer

Thanks.

Damkerng T.

Even though scarcer would be more common, some people may use more scarce as well, I think.

user62015

But the?

Damkerng T.

The would have to be used in either case.

It belongs to the pattern the ... the ....

The more I read, the more I understand -- something like that.

user62015

11:08

Okay. Thank you so much.

Damkerng T.

No problem! :-)

Zhengquan Bai

I noticed something.

Damkerng T.

Oh! What is it? Tell me. Tell me! :)

Zhengquan Bai

From loads of English movies, I notice native Speakers tend to play with the word "yet".

Damkerng T.

It's quite a handy word!

Zhengquan Bai

11:17

For example

I've never been abroad.

Sometimes native speakers won't instantly append the word "yet".

Damkerng T.

Oh, right. They may pause for a bit, and when you think they have finished the sentence, they add something! (In this case, it's yet.)

Zhengquan Bai

There will be a pause and then they suddenly utter "yet".

Damkerng T.

But wouldn't this kind of speech be universal?

Zhengquan Bai

It's not present in Chinese at least. So it impressed me.

Damkerng T.

I mean, it happens not only with yet (sometimes the additional utterance turns the meaning of what previously said into the exact opposite). It also happens in my first language.

@ZhengquanBai Oh! That's interesting!

Zhengquan Bai

11:20

Oh, that's right.

Damkerng T.

3

Q: use a bird to write with

In this movie clip, starting at 41 seconds, Maui says: When you use a bird to write with, it's called tweeting. Does the to-infinitive clause modify "a bird"?

to-infinitive

Oh, hmm...

Okay, I think everyone got the meaning right.

But does it really modify a bird.

When we use something(A) to do something(B), does to do B modify A, or is it use instead?

My intuition says to do something(B) completes use.

Let's try another example:

She used the boy to buy her some eggs.

Hmm... not a very pleasant example. Let's scratch that.

Okay, a bit better, though this time 'used' is probably not an ideal verb right there, but let's go on with it anyway...

I don't think it's likely that we will think of the boy to buy her some eggs as a single unit (i.e., a constituent).

Right?

It's not quite like those examples in the answer:

> She is a force to be reckoned with.
He's not a guy to be messed around with.

A force to be reckoned with and a guy to be messed around with sound more like constituents.

I can't make up my mind on the other two:

> There is nothing to be ashamed of.
There is nothing to be worried about.

Is it [ There is [ nothing to be ashamed of] ] or [ There is [ nothing ] [ to be ashamed of] ]?

Hmm... maybe it's okay to think of nothing to be ashamed of (and the other example) as a unit.

Still, I think when the verb is use, it probably makes more sense to think of it as a complement of use.

In other words, this use has two complements: the direct object, and to do something with.

Wait, is it a complement? Or is it an adjunct?

Hmm... maybe it's not an adjunct. I don't know.

It has with there anyway, so it can't be moved around, or at least we don't normally move it around.

To write with, when you use a bird, it's called tweeting -- No, we wouldn't do that.

That with is something important.

Damkerng T.

11:51

> thefreedictionary.com/Object-Complements.htm

> Infinitives and infinitive phrases
An infinitive or infinitive phrase acts as an object complement by describing the intended or desired action of the direct object. For example:

> “I don’t expect you to approve of my decision.”

Okay, so they call it an "object complement".

user62015

statistics is or are?

Damkerng T.

What's the intended meaning?

user62015

Statistics (a)/ are now compulsory (b)/ for all students taking a course in engineering. (c)/ No Error(d)

It shows option b

Damkerng T.

If it's a subject (like mathematics), it's singular.

user62015

I think, statistics is instead of are

Damkerng T.

11:55

Yes.

But not all statisticss will be singular.

user62015

Thanks.

Damkerng T.

:D

Hmm... this example sentence is strange:

> The teacher declared the extra credit homework to write a report.

> linguisticsgirl.com/the-object-complement-in-english-grammar (retrieved from Google's cache)

user62015

Thanks.

Damkerng T.

> I helped him to leave.

I'm not sure if the page (public.wsu.edu/~mejia/Verb_3.htm) meant to say that to leave or him to leave is a verb complement.

> The convention named Dogbreath Vice President to keep him happy.

It's hard to think of to keep him happy as an object complement.

user2684291

13:37

youtu.be/shSKvEp3HFo?t=1m45s What exactly does he say there: "come on take me on and on"? azlyrics.com/lyrics/kaleo/glasshouse.html says it's "all in all".

He's not saying his salary is profitable, he's saying the profit he makes is more than his salary. He could have said "I'm three time more profitable than my salary" meaning I bring in three times more money than I cost (not including overhead) the company. — Peter 17 hours ago

I don't know what to say.

Damkerng T.

14:02

I suppose we could say that.

Ah, I have to reboot. My speakers don't work properly at the moment!

user2684291

Well I never!

M.A.R.

I never reboot either

user2684291

"Well I never!" is some kind of fixed phrase.

M.A.R.

@user2684291 I like word plays, and with an extension, phrase plays

user2684291

OK.

Same, but sometimes it's difficult to tell if we're on the same page, especially since this is an ELL chatroom.

M.A.R.

14:09

I understand

user2684291

Well, we're definitely on the same webpage...

M.A.R.

But I don't try to make fun of what I don't understand

. . . usually

user2684291

Yeah, but I couldn't've known how you construed that reply.

M.A.R.

When in doubt, it's safe to always assume I'm joking

user2684291

Studies show that living increases risk of death.

M.A.R.

14:21

@user2684291 I disagree

user2684291

You can't disagree with studies, silly.

M.A.R.

I also disagree with your potential disagreement with my disagreement

@user2684291 You're obviously too blind to see that this is the government's conspiracy to fool us into believing living causes death.

LIVING IS A MYTH

LIVING IS A MYTH!

WAKE UP SHEEPLE

user2684291

Wake up, sheeple.

Yeah.

@M.A.R. Did you know that some people are paid to be internet trolls? Haha.

nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html?_r=0

It's a lengthy story, but an interesting read nonetheless. It's also kind of surreal – it reminds me of Kafka's Prozeß.

Damkerng T.

@user2684291 I heard on and on.

user2684291

@DamkerngT. Thank you. Now wait 'til I dig up the other song I listened to yesterday.

Damkerng T.

14:30

But it's quite possible that it's all in all, too, I think.

But all in all in all doesn't make as much sense as on and on and on, I think.

user2684291

Exactly.

Damkerng T.

(I haven't listened to the whole song anyway.)

@M.A.R. Now that makes me think of Bane's speech!

M.A.R.

@user2684291 Dang. Why am I not paid then?

user2684291

I know, right?

Ask Mr. Putin.

M.A.R.

@user2684291 Huh, this is about those guys who some guys thinks were the guys that made Prompt president?

@DamkerngT. And Trump? I always knew he resembled someone.

Damkerng T.

14:37

LOL

M.A.R.

I just couldn't imagine it being Tom Hardy.

And hell, he's my new favorite actor

Damkerng T.

The pause before the people and how the people was said are strikingly similar.

I think CowperKettle posted a video somewhere up there.

M.A.R.

@DamkerngT. We should expect a nuclear bomb go off in Washington D.C. in 23 days

user2684291

@M.A.R. Who knows; the meme machine has played its role; the US and the rest of the world are now harvesting its fruits.

Damkerng T.

@M.A.R. Okay, where is that Bat Signal?

M.A.R.

14:40

@DamkerngT. His back is broken and he's unconscious at the moment

Damkerng T.

Aww

M.A.R.

@user2684291 Serves 'em shtoopid humans right

Commissioner Hillary Gordon is also just revealed to be lying to people about Barack Dent

There, better

Barack Dent is not the hero we thought he was

Oh, I now can listen to that song of yours @user2

disq.us/p/12kqqtp

Damkerng T.

Hmm... those are also strikingly similar!

CowperKettle

2

Q: When you want to indicate you do not look at all women sexually

There is a belief that some men value a woman just because of her womanity, not because of a respect toward a so called 'holy' and honorable creature. Please imagine you as a man respect all women because you respect this gender not because of their sex, but because this gender is considered as ...

phrase-request

A Russian asks a question, a Russian replies

M.A.R.

@CowperKettle EEEK

You conquered ELL too

Let's move to Chinese.SE.

Damkerng T.

14:54

I think any attempt at translating that example sentence into "real" English wouldn't be any good.

> Friend (seeing a friend giving his seat to a lady): Hey man, did you like her?

Why would a friend have to make it a point that it's about or not about the lady?

user2684291

"Please imagine you as a man respect all women because you respect this gender not because of their sex, but because this gender is considered as valuable and precious one for you as a man."

Damkerng T.

If I were that friend, I might simply say: "Not cool, man."

IMO, the response should be about the friend, not the lady.

user2684291

@user2684291 This is phrased so badly.

M.A.R.

@user2684291 Interesting. I can't tell what's wrong with it

Unless man-respect is a non-existent hybrid

But then, does that mean the ~~cake~~ man-respect is a lie? :'(

user2684291

@M.A.R. Well, "for you as a man" – what does that have to do with anything.

M.A.R.

15:05

Wally is smart. I aspire to be Wally.

@user2684291 If it proves anything, it's that Russian is weird

user2684291

I think the person doesn't even know what they want to say. "...respect this gender not because of their sex" – are they practicing discernment between "sex" and "gender" now?

M.A.R.

Eh, I dunno, it's gender talk

I hate gender talk

user2684291

"Steve, I don't look at all women like a hole. (meaning that I didn't have any sexual intent]" No, that's not what it means. Also, what kind of interval notation is this, anyway?

Damkerng T.

16:31

1

Q: The country vs the countryside

I went to the country. I went to the countryside. Which version is correct? What are differences? I don't mean "a town" but "a rural place". Also. Would you say: I moved to the country. or I moved to the countryside.

vocabulary

The question assumes that we should use only one and not the other, I suppose.

0

Q: reachability of a host vs. the reachability of a host

Source: UNIX System Administration—A Beginner's Guide by Steve Maxwell (2002) Example: This is useful so that the user can quickly determine reachability of a host without wasting additional time or network bandwidth. If I had to write that passage, I'd personally use the article: the reac...

definite-article zero-article

Again, either is fine with me.

Strange that additional time and network bandwidth didn't urge him to feel like the is needed.

Note to self: Maxim #7: The zero article is also hard.

5

Q: The Cobbler's children have no shoes

What is the origin of this phrase? Does this also apply in case of other professions? Like the goldsmith's children have no jewels or the baker's children don't eat cake?

etymology

Nice!

Thai's version: A teacher can teach anyone but their own children.

Javed Ahmed

16:56

Hi. Could anyone help me shorten the following message,

Note:
1) For any Queries/Complaint contact to "Learn Qur'an" head office number +919108244341.
2) Thursday will be holiday. Please don't contact us on Thursday.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... contact is enough. No need to use contact to.

BTW, do you want to shorten each of the two sentences, or do you want to combine them into a single short sentence?

It it were on my site, I might write Please contact Learn Qur'an's head office at +919108244341 for any questions or complaints. (Note: we will be closed this Thursday.)

There's nothing much to eliminate, though. Your message is already just about the essential info.

(Of course, you can get rid of my Please. And you can use a slash (/) instead of my or.)

And I think it's a good idea to write the date in full, rather than just this Thursday.

Unless you meant We will be closed on Thursdays.

Which is probably better to be written as We are closed on Thursdays.

Javed Ahmed

Ok. Thanks

Damkerng T.

You're welcome!

How to say Hello in Irish

►

Is it just me or does he really pronounce it like "dia guit"?

EngFan

17:36

Help

Oops

Hello

@DamkerngT. : What does not that I know of mean?

Damkerng T.

You can understand it as It's not that I know of.

That I know of = something you know about

It's not that I know of = it's not something you know about

EngFan

Hmm so I don't know = not that I know of ?

Damkerng T.

Roughly, yes.

EngFan

Ok 👌

Damkerng T.

:D

EngFan

17:48

@DamkerngT. : So How long did it take for you to learn English

Damkerng T.

I was very bad at language learning. Still is.

Like everyone over here, I learned English since I was in Grade 1.

EngFan

@DamkerngT. : What 1 grade??

Damkerng T.

Yet I couldn't really understand anything in English even when I was in Grade 10.

@EngFan Have you ever heard K-12?

K is for kindergarten, I think. Then grade 1, 2, 3, and so on, all the way up to grade 12.

M.A.R.

@DamkerngT. It's a lethal virus, yeah

Damkerng T.

Then students go to the college.

EngFan

17:50

@DamkerngT. : I am sorry, I thought you were a robot

Damkerng T.

@EngFan I probably am. :D

M.A.R.

@EngFan Shh you seem not to value your life

Damkerng T.

M.A.R.

EngFan

@M.A.R.: Hello , hmm I didn't get that

M.A.R.

17:53

@EngFan Don't mind me

EngFan

Sure , but didn't understand, what do mean by value your Life

M.A.R.

@EngFan Robots are known to kill humans silently

They're harmless to chemicals though

Damkerng T.

(^_^)

M.A.R.

So I can move around freely, tell everyone that Dam is a robot

EngFan

@DamkerngT.: I must say you are the first robo I have ever talk to in my entire life 😊

Damkerng T.

17:58

(^_^)

I'm so glad.

EngFan

And didn't know that robos too have a good sense of humour

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