Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

00:05

2

I was surprised a bit today, when one of dishes for lunch today were bangers. I never heard this name before... I would like to know is this name common in other english speaking countries or is it specific to Ireland only? By the way, maybe you know why they call it like this - I found it r...

Sounds delicious!

Damkerng T.

02:01

Phrase of the Day: half again longer

(What does half again longer than the original mean?)

My reasonable guess: 1.5 times in length, compared to the original.

Fantasier

03:02

@DamkerngT. I'm not sure about grammaticality (people seem to use that differently), but it's most likely unacceptable, unless one construes arrive as durative (which is most of the time weird, but given specific contexts might work.) Most of the time arrive's lexical aspect is achievement (in Vendler's classification). It's punctual. That's why it doesn't occur with a Container temporal adverbial (for + time).

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Unacceptable (or infelicitous) is not a problem. (It's clear that everyone agrees that it sounds wrong.) The problem is in many answers and comments, people suggest that it's grammatical. It's just that it doesn't make much sense.

(To say has arrived for some time.)

Fantasier

What do you mean by a program?

Damkerng T.

Ah! I meant problem!

Fantasier

Well.... I dunno. I'm not even sure there's a neat line between ungrammaticality and other sorts of unacceptability.

I work too much with Thai, in which the only sort of ungrammaticality (as a purely syntactic error) I can think of is something like arranging SVO as SOV...

Damkerng T.

Let's try a reality check! Do you think any of these ungrammatical?

ก) เขาอาศัยอยู่ใจกลางเมือง

ข) เขาอาศัยอยู่กลางใจเมือง

Fantasier

03:12

Nope. Seem all fine to me.

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

ค) เขาอาศัยอยู่ที่ใจกลางเมือง
ง) เขาอาศัยอยู่ที่กลางใจเมือง

จ) เขาอาศัยอยู่ในใจกลางเมือง
ฉ) เขาอาศัยอยู่ในกลางใจเมือง

Fantasier

ค and ง are weird, but I wouldn't say they're ungrammatical.

จ and ฉ are fine.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... let's add two more alternatives.

ช) เขาอาศัยอยู่ ณ ใจกลางเมือง
ซ) เขาอาศัยอยู่ ณ กลางใจเมือง

Fantasier

Oh these two are super fine.

Damkerng T.

Isn't it strange that ณ and ที่ are supposed to mean roughly the same but they give us different feels?

Fantasier

03:18

Even if ค and ง are somehow unacceptable, I wouldn't think it has anything to do with syntax, but either semantics or frequency. (Well, you could argue I've been brainwashed to take a functionalist stance)

Damkerng T.

LOL for the parenthesized part! :D

Fantasier

In this case it's probably frequency. ใจกลาง and กลางใจ are somewhat poetic. Chances are people would use ณ with them more.

Would have to look at corpus to confirm this though

Damkerng T.

Oh, any good public corpus I could access too?

Fantasier

Thai National Corpus. It's the best we have, but ... er, not good enough...

The department is going to build a new one with PoS tagging soon, if I'm not mistaken.

Damkerng T.

I doubt how we will tag our sentences with PoS.

I mean, after reading CGEL, I think we need a whole new set of PoSs for Thai.

Fantasier

03:22

Ha!

Come. To the Functionalist Side.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Fantasier

And read Croft's Radical Construction Grammar, where he claims lexical categories and grammatical relations are basically b.s.

CowperKettle

03:37

@snailplane thank you!

minus 8°C

and today's forecast says 20 cm of snow

Damkerng T.

Brrr

CowperKettle

Sawasdee khrap. Yes, brr

Damkerng T.

Zdorovo!

An interesting kind of conditional: "biscuit" conditional

CowperKettle

03:56

> Human cells are like neutron stars

@DamkerngT. yes, nice

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle As above, so below!

> It's just four hours a day for five weeks.

> a) If you think about it, that's not very long.

> b) *If you think about it, then that's not very long.

> c) If you think about it, then you'll see that that's not very long.

It's interesting that b) is ungrammatical.

(according to languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1469)

Damkerng T.

04:22

1

A: Subject Verb agreement: should I use 'is' or 'are'?

You should use is. The subject is conceptually singular (talking about only one thing) even if there is a specific subset of this concept mentioned. The presence of the word and does not determine which verb to use. Your sentence can be correctly paraphrased as Why drug abuse in general (and ...

Hmm... why did this answer get awarded with the bounty?

Because is is more "correct"?

> Why drug abuse in general and cannabis consumption in particular is/are dangerous for your health.

Fantasier

05:14

Is are possible there?

Oh

I see

Interesting

Damkerng T.

06:47

0

Q: On what stratum is the zero plural suffix found?

And also how are plural forms sheeps, salmons and grouses blocked?

morphology

Better at Linguistics.SE?

CowperKettle

07:10

Hey! The presidential election in the USA is today.

Well, in about 9 hours in Los Gatos

I hope you're voting, @snailplane

Although you displayed remarkable sangfroid in the run-up.

Damkerng T.

07:32

We'll see how accurate the polls are very soon!

fivethirtyeight.com/features/…

(They "magically" converge, BTW. :-)

yubraj sharma

09:04

Hi To All !

@DamkerngT. Hi

Jude

10:02

Greetings!

CowperKettle

11:01

@Jude Namaste, Jude ji!

Jude

Howdy!

how do you do?

CowperKettle

Fine, thank you, but lots of work

Jude

me too

CowperKettle

I will translate for 2 hours more, then go jogging

It's a snow shower outside

Jude

ohh mn

snow <3

I never seen them in real :(

CowperKettle

11:04

(0:

I hate to think that I shall see snow for 5 months more

each day

It's all foggy due to the snow falling

Jude

wow.... it reminds me the Call Of Duty world war 1

awesome

CowperKettle

(0:

Jude

I wish I could play in snow someday

CowperKettle

@Jude sure you will someday - there must be mountainous areas with ski resorts in Sri Lanka or in nearby India

Jude

There is snowing in some northern places in India

But not in SL

SL is more closer to the equator

CowperKettle

11:16

ah

Jude

therefore, we don't have reasons either :(

CowperKettle

There are ski resorts in India, and not that far North - AFAIK, there are nearer to the border with China (but I"m not sure)

Skiing in India

Skiing in India is an activity that mostly takes place in the northern states of India, where the Himalayas are situated. Skiing is administered by the Indian Mountaineering Foundation in India. The Himalayas provide an excellent skiing experience owing to their great height which makes for long descents. Heliskiing is also gaining popularity in places like Manali and Gulmarg. However skiing in India suffers from lack of infrastructure. There are also security concerns in Gulmarg which is 20 km (12 mi) from the Line of Control, however since 2002, it has been peaceful, which has led to an increase...

Jude

but; India is separated with sea

CowperKettle

Tawang

Tawang is a town situated at an elevation of approximately 3,048 metres (10,000 ft) in the northwestern part of Arunachal Pradesh in India. The area is administered by the Republic of India as a part of the North East state of Arunachal Pradesh and is claimed by People's Republic of China as a part of South Tibet. The town once served as the district headquarters of West Kameng district, and became the district headquarters of Tawang district when it was formed from West Kameng. == History == Tawang was historically part of Tibet inhabited by the Monpa people. The Tawang Monastery was founded...

Jude

So, I have take a flight to go there

Woah.... I never thought India has that much colder whether

It seems like in EU

Btw; now you can have sky diving in SL

But it damn expensive

$371.23 per one dive

CowperKettle

11:45

yes, quite expensive

Færd

I have recently adopted a fun way to expand my vocab and practice writing at the same time. I read one or two pages a day from a dictionary, study the words that are new to me in some way, and then use them all in one short story.

Today's story is about a despondent tyrant who rose from absolute destitution, destined to become a cruel despot. He'd started out as a low-ranking sailor on a destroyer...

Haha. I can't help laughing at my own story. It is funny.

CowperKettle

@Færd I did the same, but I did not go through the dictionary, I just concocted stories using the current 20 words I was studying (20 is the number of words that fits nicely in a single copy-book sheet)

Færd

12:07

Oh yeah? So how did it work out for you? And how did you pick your words?

I just want to know as many words as an intermediate learners' dictionary has, at least. I guess that would give me an even distribution of a reasonable size that can work as a base.

Then I can expand on the vocab of the fields that I'm more interested in.

CowperKettle

@Færd I picked them when I read a book. I used the text marker on unknown words, then jotted down all the words in the copy book

Now I just use Anki

Færd

Ah. Is there a mobile app for that?

There has to be. I wonder if I'll be bored with that.

To me this craving for more and more words seems slightly creepy and crazy, so I have to distract myself by engaging my mind in something else, like a story, and let the crazy work be done as an underlying procedure.

CowperKettle

Judging by your sentences, you are extremely fluent already

sorry fo lagging, I'm translating

Færd

No problem.

@CowperKettle Far far from that.

I'm so dumb in expressing my mind.

Heck, I'm not such a good talker in my first language either. One should know his limits.

@CowperKettle Have a good translation. See you.

yubraj sharma

12:29

Hi ...How are you all !

Færd

(Correction: One should know one's limits.)

V.V.

13:02

Plus 8ºC today. My autumn is unstable. Can I say it?

Evening.

Man_From_India

13:57

@Araucaria This is regarding that -ever question.

That day I said that it's written in CGEL that the clause headed by wh-word with -ever is never an interrogarive clause, but a fused relative clause. Today while checking Quirk et al. I found the same thing.

I had doubt whether we can ask question with whatever, whoever, whichever etc.

And so I had looked for it in Cambridge Online dictionary, and it says we can form questions with whoever, whatever, whichever etc. Quirk et al. says the same thing, but also adds that those wh-words and ever are separate, not the single word.

yubraj sharma

Nods.....

CowperKettle

14:15

@V.V. wow

minus 7.8C here

6:22 in Los Gatos

Araucaria

@Man_From_India I think that's a bit circular really, because, of course, if it's an interrogative clause then it isn't headed by the wh- word. CamGEL also state that exhaustive conditional adjuncts are interrogative clauses .... Hmmm.

CowperKettle

Prepare to vote, @snailplane! Make America great again!

Good evening, @Araucaria

BBL

Man_From_India

@Araucaria Nice pick. Agree. But Quirk et al. also says a very good point that if that clause contain a preposition, interrogative clause gives option regarding the placement of that preposition. But in fused relative clause you can't place the preposition with wh word.

yubraj sharma

Is this sentence correct grammatically : How are the days moving on these days ? @Man_From_India

Man_From_India

Furthermore, I searched COCA, and I had to agree with these two books, and surprisingly I haven't found any interrogative sentence in COCA starting with whatever, whichever etc. Either that my search is not proper, or that what CGEL or Quirk et al. says has no dispute.

BBL. Going to eat something, hungry ;-)

Stack Exchange

14:28

1

Q: Extensive edits and bounty allocation

On the following question there was a 150 Rep bounty which was allocated to an answer after the bounty proposer had largely edited it. This is an unusual course of action that I have never seen before so I'd like to ask if the procedere is in line with the site regulations or if a better and ...

support

yubraj sharma

Please help me.....

Man_From_India

@yubrajsharma which sentence?

Araucaria

@CowperKettle Hi!

@Man_From_India Thanks. Hmm, I'm going to have to go and find a copy of Q et al ...

Man_From_India

@Araucaria wait I can post a snap shot of that page here, if you want.

yubraj sharma

14:52

@Man_From_India How are the days moving on these days ?

Man_From_India

We often say - how are the days going on?

yubraj sharma

It means the sentence was wrong?

Man_From_India

Not wrong.

yubraj sharma

Then, Not idiomatic?

Man_From_India

Or we simply say: How is your day?

yubraj sharma

15:04

Ok thanks.

Am i correct here about the meaning of these sentences with 'having' ? For example:
Love means never having to say sorry= Love means you never have to say sorry.
And
Employment is having to work=Employment means you have to work.

Man_From_India

First sentence is fine, but the second one is wrong.

How did you come up with the second one?

CowperKettle

Anonymous

@yubrajsharma Love means never having to say you're sorry. You left out a word :-)

Anonymous

It's grammatical without you're, but people generally say you're.

CowperKettle

"Employment is having to work" seems odd but might be okay

Anonymous

15:11

Love means never having to say you're sorry

"Love means never having to say you're sorry" is a catchphrase based on a line from the Erich Segal novel and was popularized by its 1970 film adaptation Love Story starring Ali MacGraw and Ryan O'Neal. The line is spoken twice in the film: once in the middle of the film, by Jennifer Cavalleri (MacGraw's character), when Oliver Barrett (O'Neal) apologizes to her for his anger; and as the last line of the film, by Oliver, when his father says "I'm sorry" after learning of Jennifer's death. In the script the line is phrased slightly differently: "Love means not ever having to say you're sorry." The...

Anonymous

People tend to quote this exactly.

CowperKettle

"Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose'"

Anonymous

@CowperKettle Wouldn't it be another rather than the other?

CowperKettle

@snailplane thank you!

I just recalled this phrase, from a song

Anonymous

@CowperKettle It seems grammatical at least.

Anonymous

15:13

By the way, that lose / loose thing trips up lots of native speakers too.

CowperKettle

It trips me at all times

Anonymous

It's tricky.

Anonymous

Pretty!

CowperKettle

I have 100+ more

It was breathtaking

It was a mountfujilike experience I guess

only scaled down to Chelyabinsk Oblast scale

^_^

Wow, I have $1000 on my account now. The salary has just come in.

yubraj sharma

Ok what about this : Love means never having to say you're sorry--Love means you never have to say sorry

CowperKettle

15:26

I like the first version more

Someone might read the second version as "If you love, then you can do anything and not say sorry"

yubraj sharma

I'm asking wheather the meaning is same of both.

Does it "Employment means you you have to work" means" Employment means having to work"

CowperKettle

Why are you trying to pick apart these sentences? Yes, they are roughly similar. Yes, they might have different hues. To improve your English, just read more and chat more.

yubraj sharma

I'm trying to write the same thing in various different ways

CowperKettle

I see

yubraj sharma

Anyway, Thanks for your advice

Man_From_India

15:35

@yubrajsharma Why can't I post msgs in wordreference?

yubraj sharma

Is it a good question to ask in ELL ?

@Man_From_India I'm afraid I don't know about that

Man_From_India

Just asking what might be the reason? Am I blocked, and what for? :O

@yubrajsharma Can you post anything there?

CowperKettle

From inside the Marble Cave

yubraj sharma

@Man_From_India you are trying to respond there but sometimes it happens that You need to repost the mesg, just copy it and post again, It might be due to system problem

CowperKettle

Navigation in the woods (0:

yubraj sharma

15:44

@CowperKettle is that question woth-asking in ELL ? having to

CowperKettle

@yubrajsharma you mean

> "Employment means you have to work" == " Employment means having to work"

?

Looks okay

yubraj sharma

I need to ask it in ELL ?

CowperKettle

yes, by all means ^_^

This one cracks me up

yubraj sharma

Sorry please?

CowperKettle

Yes, it is okay to ask the question. If it gets downvoted, you can always take it off. (0:

some glittering rock in the forsaken mine

yubraj sharma

15:53

Take it off means to delete it

CowperKettle

nods

Man_From_India

@yubrajsharma No my text box is missing, whether I am trying to post a new thread, or trying to reply to an existing post or reply to an inbox msg. It's strange.

yubraj sharma

Nods @Man_From_India

@Man_From_India I don't have any problem writing mesg there I'm using opere mini

Man_From_India

The site seems to be not working properly for me.

yubraj sharma

@CowperKettleThe model verb "would" is frequently used in English and it has more meanings and usage than other models. It was the first time when I asked a question about would in ELU

Man_From_India

16:24

Another similar question

4

Q: "that a big deal" or "that big a deal"?

Source From an episode of Friends at 00:01 Monica: Will you let it go? It's not that big a deal. Ross: Not that big a deal? It's amazing! OK. Just reach in there and there's just one little manoeuvre bam! — a bra right out the sleeve. I always believed ‘that a big deal’ to be correct...

grammaticality word-order predeterminers

The best answer -

→ ell.stackexchange.com/a/108828/3463

CowperKettle

17:06

CNN reporter trapped with Iraqi forces during ISIS attack

►

Barak Obama is shown at 1:30

Or a man looking very much like him.

An Iraqi army soldier

CowperKettle

17:21

It's so odd that in the USA or Europe he might have been leading a full life, and in Iraq he might be killed tomorrow.

Anonymous

17:37

@Man_From_India Please try to avoid oneboxing spam in chat. When you do, it preserves the spam forever for everyone to see.

Anonymous

You can avoid oneboxing by putting something else before the link, like a period or an arrow.

Anonymous

I edited your link so that it no longer oneboxes :-)

Anonymous

@Man_From_India By the way, thank you for pointing out the spam. I've destroyed the account that was used to post it.

Man_From_India

@snailplane I'm sorry. Yes I understand.

Anonymous

Oh, there's no need to apologize :-)

Man_From_India

17:40

:-)

You voted?

Anonymous

I just wanted to tell you for future reference.

Man_From_India

I mean did you vote?

Anonymous

I will be keeping my vote a secret :-)

2

Man_From_India

@snailplane of course :-)

Today Indian government took a revolutionary step. They banned just now without prior notice all notes having denomination of 1000 and 500

Anonymous

Wow!

Man_From_India

17:43

A move to curve black money and fake notes.

Anonymous

That sounds like a very good thing.

Man_From_India

But indian politics. You can never know whether it's really good for you or you are tricked.

2

Anonymous

:-/

Man_From_India

Vote is coming.

Færd

@CowperKettle Is that the taiga?

Anonymous

17:45

I'm on a train, by the way.

Man_From_India

Snail on a train :P

Anonymous

:-)

V.V.

18:17

Morning, Snaily, have a good day.

It's raining here.

Damkerng T.

22:40

@zwol How do these people deal with the fact that "I go the house" is obviously ungrammatical but has clear semantics, whereas "colourless green ideas sleep furiously" appears to me to be completely grammatical but has no clear semantics? Or are they just saying that you can't consider grammaticality without also considering semantics? — David Richerby 7 hours ago

I say, meaning first, then whether or not it's grammatical.

Us go house is definitely has a clear meaning.

It's ungrammatical, obviously.

Me went house first, then you in quick quick wouldn't be too hard to guess its meaning.

Again, obviously ungrammatical.

So, not every utterance that we can understand its meaning to a certain extent would be grammatical.

A classic example is probably: He ate the apple in/*for an hour.

Obviously we can't put for into the same slot as in, even though both in and for are prepositions.

Correction: 'Us go house' is definitely has a clear meaning.

(I guess I rephrased my thought on-the-fly from 'is definitely meaningful' to 'definitely has a clear meaning'.)

Then again, the bottom line is, "What's 'grammatical'?" can be very tricky.

Damkerng T.

22:59

@BladorthinTheGrey Thank you. I know they are compound noun. In our grammar ,if we get two noun together,wo should consider the first as an adjective. Adjective have no plural form.Perhaps there are still some exceptions, I only want .to know the reason why the words man and woman change singular into plural. — user44418 14 hours ago

Sometimes things are harder to us because we know too much already.

"if we get two noun together,wo should consider the first as an adjective" -- Once we've learned that or somehow come to believe that, it's not easy to change our mind.

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