Language Overflow - 2016-10-16

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Man_From_India

01:31

It's strange that a native UK English speaker in Wordreference Forum commented that he found the following sentence unnatural -

> "I need to book a taxi for early morning tomorrow".

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with this sentence. How do you people feel about the sentence?

@snailplane John Lawler once said that he doesn't think that atpredeterminer is anything real. Though I read about it in Quirk et al as a word class.

CGEL says that all there is an adverb, that takes the predeterminer position in a NP.

It's in line with the claim that an adverb can modify a NP.

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Yes, predeterminer is the function rather than the word class.

Anonymous

In CGEL's analysis, I mean.

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Sounds fine to me.

Man_From_India

"Predeterminer" is not a fact, nor a rule, but somebody's label. You can't determine anything from an arbitrary label; certainly it won't help you determine wrong from right. — John Lawler Apr 4 at 17:37

At that time I didn't read CGEL. I only read Quirk et al that time and John's comment surprised me a lot.

@snailplane Is this a BrE and AmE difference? But grammatically it's correct.

Anonymous

01:54

@Man_From_India I don't think so . . .

Man_From_India

02:08

Thanks SnalP :-)

CowperKettle

02:49

Sawasdee khrap

4 hours later…

Damkerng T.

06:34

@Man_From_India It's strange that there are only two instances of "for early morning tomorrow" in Google Books (while it's plenty for "for early tomorrow morning"). cc @snailplane

The syntax of "for early morning tomorrow" is more logical to me (though it would be "early tomorrow morning" if there's not "for", when it's used to modify the verb directly). I don't know how to explain it except for maybe it's another case that familiarity trumps logic.

BTW, sawasdee khrap!

4 hours later…

Man_From_India

10:14

@DamkerngT. it's not illogical. I have written the explanation over that forum. You may check it.

forum.wordreference.com/threads/…

If for is not there in that sentence it would mean that booking the cab should take place early tomorrow morning, but with for there it would mean that you would book a cab (when? Not mentioned), but the cab would arrive early morning tomorrow.

2 hours later…

Damkerng T.

12:06

@Man_From_India They would say "arrive early tomorrow morning" rather than "arrive early morning tomorrow", I think.

That's not a surprise.

The surprising part is, they also seem to prefer "book SOMETHING for early tomorrow morning" as well.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. I didn't get that impression until I read London calling comment there. I don't know why he thinks it's not nature.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India And yet it's much less common in Google Books.

I think if we have for the whole phrase after for would be a noun phrase. If we treat tomorrow morning as a noun phrase, early should be an adjective.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. As a non native speaker, I should refrain myself from commenting about whether something is natural or not. But I have seen no syntactic problem with the other construction they marked as unnatural.

Though a perfectly grammatical stuff may sound unnatural. That's not surprising.

Damkerng T.

That's why I think familiarity trumps the syntax, probably.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. tomorrow there is a diatec temporal pronoun, but it functions as a determiner when we say tomorrow morning. So early modifies a NP, and that only an adverb can do. Normally an adjective can't do such thing.

Damkerng T.

12:18

Hmm... tomorrow is a determiner? That's a bit strange, isn't it?

Man_From_India

early morning tomorrow is like early in the morning on 17th October (for example).

Damkerng T.

Personally, I think tomorrow morning as a noun phrase is a noun pile.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. Not much surprising. This pronoun can assume that role. We are familier with NP functioning as a determiner.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Could you give me an example?

Man_From_India

hmmmm let me check it from the book.

Oh one is Apple's product :-)

Damkerng T.

12:21

You mean Apple product?

Man_From_India

Let me give you a better example.

> this size shoe

Here this size is a NP that acts as a determiner in the lager NP - [this size] shoe.

(page 355 CGEL)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... okay, it modifies or specifies shoe.

But that doesn't make size a determiner, perhaps? Or does it?

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. No it's not like that.

the NP - this size - is functioning as a determiner (function, not word class or category). But this size is not a determinitive (word class), rather a NP (word class).

Let me find the relevant pages in ASIEG for your convenience.

Damkerng T.

It's okay. I can find it in page 355 now. But how does this make tomorrow in tomorrow morning a determiner?

Man_From_India

12:40

It says on page 357 (CGEL)

> The second kind of plan NP found in determiner function is a weekday name, or one of the temporal pronouns yesterday and tomorrow, as in [Sunday] morning, [tomorrow] evening etc.

> We take the second noun as head since this is the one which marks the number of the whole NP: compare Sunday morning and Sunday mornings. Note also the contrast with this morning, where this is a basic determiner.

Damkerng T.

That's interesting.

I wonder how they would analyze, say, Early/late that day was the time ...

Man_From_India

late or later?

I think adverb.

Damkerng T.

They should be interchangeable, syntactically, right?

Man_From_India

20 hours ago, by snailplane

@Man_From_India It's like early the next day, not the next early day.

Damkerng T.

(And what is that in that Sunday morning?)

Man_From_India

12:48

@DamkerngT. A very good question.

let me think.

still searching for an answer :-)

Damkerng T.

:D

Man_From_India

I am pretty sure that that is a demonstrative determinitive. It is deictic use.

Damkerng T.

I guess the only we can work around the problem if we accept that Sunday in Sunday morning is a determiner is to read it as [ [ that Sunday ] morning ], in the same way we think of this size shoe.

Then again, I wonder if that's what people really mean when they say things like that Sunday morning.

Man_From_India

Well, it's like that. Take the example of the two boys.

Here the head noun is boys. The determinitive is two. So it's two boys. An NP. But it's also a nominal in the two boys. That nominal with the determinitive the forms the larger NP - the two boys.

Damkerng T.

Also, things get even more complicated, if we accept that Sunday is a determiner, in a phrase such as that joyful Sunday morning.

Man_From_India

13:01

@DamkerngT. Sunday is not a determiner, it's an NP. Its function is a determiner.

Damkerng T.

the two boys is more like [ the [ two boys ] ].

@Man_From_India That's what I mean.

Man_From_India

We tend to mean [[that][Sunday morning]]. Isn't it?

@DamkerngT. nods.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India I guess so.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. Yes and it's in line with the explanation of the two boys.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... so we can have determiners determining determiners?

Man_From_India

13:04

@DamkerngT. that joyful Sunday morning, yes, it's complicated.

Damkerng T.

Or determiners determining determined phrases.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. No. It's not determining the determiner. Rather, it's determining the following nominal.

@DamkerngT. More like that.

Damkerng T.

"The determiner serves to mark the NP as definite or indefinite." (p.55)

Hmm...

So a quantifier is not a determiner in CGEL, I suppose.

Man_From_India

I am thinking of possible explanation for that joyful Sunday Morning.

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Anonymous

13:09

@Man_From_India What needs explaining about it? (Besides the capital 'M'! :-)

Damkerng T.

"Thus the determinative three is determiner in three books, but modifier in these three books." (p.55)

I guess they would think the same for that joyful Sunday morning.

And probably the same with early tomorrow morning.

@snailplane Whether Sunday is a determiner? And how can we apply this to the claim that early in early tomorrow morning is an adverb? I think. (^_^)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. About the latter: have you considered that tomorrow morning might be a modifier in the AdvP early tomorrow morning?

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I'm not sure about the concept of "modifier", but what we were discussing was a special case of early tomorrow morning, as if it's a noun phrase after for.

Like in I booked this car for early tomorrow morning.

Anonymous

Oh, I see! That's different from the sort of example we were discussing before, isn't it?

Damkerng T.

nods

Man_From_India

13:21

@snailplane I mean to say that it's a bit strange that we have a NP1 - Sunday morning. And then that is added with the NP1 to form that Sunday morning. Np1 is a nominal. Up to that it's fine. But when we insert joyful after that, the explanation doesn't hold right.

Anonymous

Well, you need to analyze these in complete example sentences, because the syntactic status is going to be different in different examples.

Man_From_India

For example -

> do you remember [that gloomy Sunday morning]?

Ok I think I got it. Sunday morning is the head nominal. that is a determiner, and gloomy is an adjective. The structure of the NP is = determinitive + Adjective + Nominal.

But the nominal structure is a bit strange.

Because inside the nominal we have Sunday in determiner function.

That is confusing me. @snailplane

Damkerng T.

Right now I think, under CGEL framework, Sunday is a determiner only when there is no determinative in front of it in the phrase it belongs to.

Anonymous

@Man_From_India That doesn't quite work.

Anonymous

Sunday must be an attributive modifier in that example, not a determiner.

Man_From_India

13:28

@snailplane now it's fine :-)

@snailplane So as @DamkerngT. was asking, if we consider tomorrow a modifier in tomorrow morning, can we say that early is also an adjective in early tomorrow morning?

(Anyway early is also an adjective in early morning).

Anonymous

@Man_From_India No.

Anonymous

I mean, again, we should be discussing complete sentences, but . . .

Anonymous

Calling early an adjective makes the wrong predictions about early the next day.

Anonymous

So we should be able to reject early as an adjective in that sort of example, although it is of course an adjective in other examples.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. so many things to consider :'(

that joyful Sunday morning, we can't replace Sunday with tomorrow or we can't construct similar construction with tomorrow in the place of Sunday in That joyful Sunday morning.

Now @DamkerngT. it ends all your confusion, I guess. Mine is gone, though. Thanks @snailplane for concluding it with nice explanation over again.

Damkerng T.

13:55

I still don't know if early is not an adjective, what it is in I booked that car for early tomorrow morning.

It's not like I booked that car early for tomorrow morning.

Curiosity sometimes kills the cat! :P

Man_From_India

Oh I had a bad news to share. MY grandma expired today morning after several days on bed with eyes closed and no talking for several months. She didn't even sit or moved.

Today after I came home, my parents informed me the news.

Damkerng T.

Oh...

My condolences

Man_From_India

It happened so unexpectedly. Though she was apparently having breathing problem from today morning. She couldn't talk, but we guessed that she had breathing problem from the way her chest was moving and mounts twitched.

@DamkerngT. Thanks DT

I can't stand that, so I'm home.My dad and other family members have already gone to graveyard.

Damkerng T.

nods

Rubisco

14:34

sdon

Cardinal

> Having read a lot of books, he has a good grasp of bla-bla.

Is that correct?

I mean, isn't it a dangling participle?

Rubisco

@Cardinal Dangling thingies aren't as bad as some people are bashing them

They're just bad writing style, not ungrammatical.

Cardinal

sdon

Man_From_India

@Cardinal @Rubisco what does that mean?

Cardinal

It's the reflection of the "nods" on the lake!

Rubisco

14:42

@Man_From_India It just means 'nods', but in a cooler way.

Man_From_India

@Rubisco hmmm mirrir effect :P

Cardinal

@Man_From_India exactly:-)

Rubisco

No, morrir effect

Cardinal

I guess, Rubisco effect

Man_From_India

Finger slipping effect in more layman way ;)

Cardinal

14:44

0:-)

@cardinal what kind of meaning would it (the sentence you suggested) have ? — yubraj sharma 11 mins ago

I think this user is obsessed with passive voiced participles

I afraid that I mislead them.

Man_From_India

@Cardinal I think it started with me :(

I tried my best, but couldn't help.

Cardinal

I know.

I wonder why they cannot come up with a solution!

Perhaps, he/she didn't put enough time to thoroughly investigate the topic.

I saw your answer. That was very incisive and informative.

Rubisco

The perfect question title appeared on Chem today

-2

Q: Thermodynamics Word Problems (VERY URGENT *sad face*)

The neutralization of a hypothetical acid with NaOH has a ΔHrxn = -156.44 kJ/mol. When 20.0mL of the hypothetical acid was titrated with 80.0mL of a standard 0.900 M NaOH solution, the solution turns pink. The resulting solution requires 30.0mL of a 0.6M HCl solution to reach a colorless endpoint...

thermodynamics energy enthalpy entropy free-energy

Man_From_India

Sometimes it's hard to convince someone. It's not their fault, I know the subject is confusing at times. It's not a DT's language that follows one and only one strict rule.It's a naturally occurring language. To formulate the structure of a natural language is really hard. We non native speakers are grateful that such analysis had been taken place and so much explanation is given. Pheewwww.

Cardinal

@Man_From_India yop.

> The dog sank his teeth in her arm.

Ostensible easy-word of the moment: sink

Man_From_India

15:00

@Cardinal Some time I blame the books that are available here. Those books that most people follow. Here the only thing that matters to most of the students is to pass the exam. The teachers are equally misguiding sometimes, because they suggests those books too. And they themselves are not very clear on a particular subject. Though not all are bad. But most of them are. That's the story in here.

Cardinal

@Man_From_India That's pretty the case here too

Man_From_India

pretty much

Rubisco

@Cardinal Nom nom I ate your 'much'

@Man_From_India That's more or less the story everywhere.

Cardinal

0:-)

Man_From_India

Alas!

Anonymous

15:09

@Man_From_India Oh, I'm sorry to hear that :-(

Rubisco

@Man_From_India Oh. (╯T□T）╯︵ ┻━┻ My condolences

Man_From_India

@snailplane Thanks!

@Rubisco thanks champ

1 hour later…

CowperKettle

16:27

Evening all!

Damkerng T.

16:54

Evening!

I'm going to paste a nice story. It's about 7-8 messages long.

> Upon inspection, she [Mani Mekhala] saw the Great Being and she thought: "Should young Prince Mahajanaka perish in the ocean, I'll never be allowed in the Celestials' Society anymore." Having so pondered, she adorned herself and went to hover not far from the Great Being. To test the Great Being, she intoned the first stanzas;
"Who's that, even though the coast is nowhere to be seen,
is still swimming in the midst of the ocean waves?
What mighty use do you see in striving to swim in this manner?"

> Then the Great Being opined:
"To this morning, we have been swimming the ocean for seven days.
We have seen nary a soul as companion.
Now, who is that speaking to me?"
ooking up skywards, he saw Mani Mekhala. Thereupon, he intoned the second staza:
"O, Goddess, we have reflected upon the worldly behaviour
and the merits of perseverance.
Thus, we conclude that, even though we do not see the shores,
we still have to persist in our swimming in the wide ocean."

> Mani Mekhala desiring to hear a further discourse from the Great Being, intoned another stanza:
"The coast of the unfathomable ocean
is assuredly not visible to you.
Your heroic efforts are thus of no avail;
You will be dead before you reach the shores."

> Upon these remarks, the Great Being told Mani Mekhala:
"What are you saying?
We are persevering, so that though we may perish,
we shall be free from any blame or criticism.
Any individual who practises perseverance,
even in the face of death,
will not be in any debt to relatives
or gods or father or mother.
Furthermore,
any individual who does his duty like a man,
will enjoy Ultimate Peace in the future."

> At this point, the goddess addressed the Great Being with this stanza:
"Any enterprise that is not achieved through perseverance,
is fruitless; obstacles will occur.
When any enterprise undertaken with such misdirected effort
results in Death showing his face,
what is the use of such enterprise and misdirected effort?"

> After Mani Mekhala had spoken in this manner, the Great Being, in order to convince the goddess completely, intoned the next stanza, thus:
"Hark, o Goddess!
Anyone who knows for sure that his activities
will not meet with success can be deemded to be doomed;
if that one desists from perseverance in that way,
he will surely receive the consequence of his indolence.

> Hark, o Goddess!
Some people in this world strive to get results
for their endeavours even if they don't succeed.
Hark, o Goddess!
You do see clearly the results of actions, don't you?
All the others have drowned in the ocean;
we alone, are still swimming and have seen you hovering near us.
As for us, we are going to endeavour further
to the utmost of our ability;
We are going to strive like a man should do
to reach the shores of the ocean."

> Having listened to the Great Being's convincing oration and to praise the Great Being, the goddess intoned the stanza:
"Anyone who is so full of righteous patience
will never founder in the vast ocean that has no bounds.
With this manly perseverance,
you will be able to go wherever you wish."

--The Story of Mahajanaka

by His Majesty King Bhumibol Adulyadej of Thailand

For everyone who is in their endeavor.

(All typos and errors are mine.)

Also available in animation format (^_^): youtube.com/…

Damkerng T.

17:12

-1

A: How can I understand the structure of this sentence? -- "... that it is seen as a medium much more so than is broadcast."

TL;DR Here is the meaning of the sentence: "Broadcast is seen as a medium. Yet the Internet is seen even more so, and that is because the Internet is not just an environment, it's also a tool or a highway." You can read: "that it is seen as a medium much more so than is broadcast" as: "that th...

Hmm... I just got a downvote on an old question.

It's quite obvious that it must have been given by the poster of the new answer.

Even so, I rather trust myself that I didn't understand the sentence correctly.

Though it may be possible that I got something wrong.

But no comments, alas.

Original: However, it is precisely because, in an everyday sense, the Internet is seen as a tool, or as a vessel/conduit ‘highway’ (see the discussion below of Meyrowitz’s three metaphors of media), rather than an environment, that it is seen as a medium much more so than is broadcast.

New answer: He is saying that the Internet is a tool and a medium UNLIKE broadcast (television).

Mine: "Broadcast is seen as a medium. Yet the Internet is seen even more so, and that is because the Internet is not just an environment, it's also a tool or a highway."

shrug

CowperKettle

Dobry Vecher, @V.V.!

V.V.

Privet!

Bad connection

CowperKettle

17:29

(0:

It is generally bad in our city?

In Yekaterinburg, the connection is great.

I have 12 mbits, unlimited download, for just $5 a month

Damkerng T.

planning to move to Yekaterinburg...

V.V.

It's Sunday.

All together, Dam.

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. You can visit!

I've a free room. I will take you hiking.

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle I want cheap internet connections! :D

@CowperKettle TIA!

CowperKettle

(0:

Transient ischemic attack

A transient ischemic attack (TIA) is a transient episode of neurologic dysfunction caused by ischemia (loss of blood flow) – either focal brain, spinal cord, or retinal – without acute infarction (tissue death). TIAs have the same underlying cause as strokes: a disruption of cerebral blood flow (CBF), and are often referred to as mini-strokes. Symptoms caused by a TIA resolve in 24 hours or less. TIA was originally defined clinically by the temporary nature of less than 24 hours of the associated neurologic symptoms. Recently, the American Heart Association and American Stroke Association (AHA/ASA...

Damkerng T.

17:35

Oh, no, not this one!

I meant Thanks in advance!

CowperKettle

(0:

@DamkerngT. Ah! (0:

V.V.

Lol

CowperKettle

user image

In Olenii Ruchii

user image

Damkerng T.

The view is always awesome!

CowperKettle

yes

There is a very nice metal-structure path along the cliffs with beautiful views

Turns out a US citizen donated money to build this path

Some guy named Post, in 1998

Damkerng T.

17:45

Oh!

CowperKettle

See the sign above

Damkerng T.

Ah, it's post-paid, then! :P

CowperKettle

It's called Post's Highway

Because it is "high" above the river

They used the wrong word order though (0:

> High way Post's

Because in Russian it is Haivei Posta (0:

V.V.

Beautiful

Where to see Thai viws?

Views

Damkerng T.

Bangkok is similar to other big cities. Lots of buildings. :-)

It's more beautiful in the north, though. Like in Chiang Rai, for example:

user image

CowperKettle

18:01

user image

@DamkerngT. Wow!

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle The photographer did a great job, whoever they are!

CowperKettle

user image

user image

Part of Post's "High Way"

user image

beautiful fallen trees under snow

user image

another part of Post's way

user image

a layer of ice already on the river

Damkerng T.

I wish I still had my watercolor tool-set around!

I don't even have a sketchbook now.

CowperKettle

I have my sister's but she will kill me if she returns from India and discovers I meddled with it

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

CowperKettle

18:12

user image

Isn't this beautiful

a bit out of focus

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle Oh, that small bridge or walkway looks dangerous!

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. No, it's very sturdy (0:

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle It curves beautifully!

CowperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle Ah, not slippery?

CowperKettle

18:14

user image

@DamkerngT. Just a bit

We went into a cave

Inside the cave, all the photos came out not very good

I forgot to take an electric lamp

Damkerng T.

nods -- It needs special techniques to get good photos in a cave, I think.

Cardinal

@Man_From_India Oh- I didn't notice that- my condolence.

CowperKettle

The cave went very far, but we decided to turn back then we met a steep fall with a stream of water

Because... not enough lamps

I used my photocamera to light my way

Damkerng T.

Was there any other group?

CowperKettle

A lot

Almost on our heels there was a huge group of school children aged about 10

Damkerng T.

18:19

Oh!

Cardinal

@CowperKettle What is that barren tree called in English?

You have 5 secs to answer

CowperKettle

Birch

Cardinal

Bingo

0:-)

CowperKettle

We study that in our first English lessons

The Birch tree is a symbol of Russia

Cardinal

@CowperKettle Really, it's nice

CowperKettle

18:21

(0:

Cardinal

I think such symbols are called emblem.

CowperKettle

may be (0:

In Siberia, we did not have a lot of big birch trees. They were tiny there

Cardinal

Birches and Aspens are deciduous! :-)

@CowperKettle nods

Damkerng T.

19:15

> "You are so stupid, Hunahpu," she said. "Father is shorter than Mother, too. What kind of idiot do you think I am?"
"Such an idiot that you're in love with me just as I'm in love with you, only for some insane reason you refuse to admit it, you refuse even to take a chance on us being happy together."

> Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus by Orson Scott Card

I wonder if that's a case of resumptive pronoun.

Hmm...

Maybe "Such an idiot that you're in love with." would be better if the sentence ended there.

But "Such an idiot that you're in love with me just as I'm in love with you" may read better.

Khan

19:46

hey

Damkerng T.

20:13

@Khan Hi! Welcome to the room!

I'm in and out the chat room, as usual, so it might take some time before I can notice a new message.

Khan

20:29

thanks

okay

what's the purpose of this chat room?

Damkerng T.

21:07

@Khan It's the main room of ELL.

Sometimes we discuss questions and answers in here. Sometimes we just chat. (^_^)

Little Alien

21:21

How do I ask more correctly: what drives the Empire or what does drive the Empire?

Cardinal

https://www.rt.com/news/362953-putin-nsa-blackout-joke/
@CowperKettle

Damkerng T.

@LittleAlien The former

Little Alien

I felt that. I just do not understand why English grammar textbooks say that, grammatically, we must use the latter.

Damkerng T.

@LittleAlien The latter is not wrong, but it's not correct to say that we must use the latter.

Cardinal

Considering I'm a teacher
Is right to say that "the student X passed Y and Z courses presented by me with high scores"

Damkerng T.

21:36

@Cardinal Too many placeholders. The sentence reads weird now.

Presented is also odd (if I guess the intended meaning correctly).

Cardinal

X is the name of the student.
Y is a course, e.g., maths
Z is another course

@DamkerngT. Exactly, I wanted to replace it by "instruct"

But I didn't :-)

Damkerng T.

Ms. Learn Quitealot passed my courses, Math 101 and Eco 203, with high/good scores/grades.

Cardinal

@DamkerngT. WoW

thank you!

:-)

Damkerng T.

No problem. :-)

Cardinal

Quitealot :D

Damkerng T.

21:40

Hehe!

2 hours later…

Anonymous

23:21

@LittleAlien What does drive the Empire? is only appropriate in specific contexts.

Anonymous

In English, if you want to emphasize the positive or negative polarity of a sentence, you can stress the auxiliary verb.

Anonymous

If there is no auxiliary verb there, then you add do, and stress that.

Anonymous

> What drives the Empire?

Anonymous

This is a basic question, appropriate whenever the question makes sense.

Anonymous

> What does drive the Empire?

Anonymous

23:23

But this sentence has emphatic polarity, and you need a special reason to say this one.

Anonymous

For example, if someone said:

Anonymous

> Such-and-such does not drive the Empire.

Anonymous

Then you could respond by asking:

Anonymous

> What does drive the Empire, then?

Anonymous

You're contrasting with the negative sentence that came just before it.

Anonymous

23:24

But if you don't have a special context like this to contrast with, then does is wrong.

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