Language Overflow

CowperKettle

01:23

morning

Man_From_India

01:44

@DamkerngT. interesting!

Good morning Kettle.

> This isn't how tragic endings work.

> I think how tragic endings make us feel is kinda the entire point behind this thread's existence.

@DamkerngT. I found these from Google search. But these are a bit different from what we were discussing the other day. In cases here how heads the embedded wh questions.

In the cases we were discussing the other day, how was a part of an AdjP.

I am wondering if in that AXN ad how tragic is used as an AdjP. If that is the case, I think it's a typo.

Anonymous

02:19

@Man_From_India What is the sentence in the AXN ad?

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Do you suppose it might be a fused relative?

Man_From_India

02:44

@snailplane I don't think it's Fused relatives. Embedded interrogative clause.

DT saw an AXN ad where it said how tragic endings.

Have to ask @DamkerngT. Do you remember the full sentence of the ad?

user62015

03:31

(A) Lie / (B) this injured person / (C) on this rug. / (D) no error Answer shows A but I think D @DamkerngT. @CowperKettle @Cardinal

Anonymous

03:41

@Man_From_India Why do you think so?

Anonymous

Is it because CGEL says fused relatives with how are rare and marginal? But I think CGEL is wrong.

CowperKettle

@user62015 Lay

V.V.

03:54

Morning

Man_From_India

@snailplane yes partly because of CGEL. There are other issues with that. In Webster's usage Dictionary the use of how meaning that is criticised. I love how you love me. In here we can take the how you love me as a fused relative, embedded interrogative or like a content clause headed by that.

CowperKettle

Morning, V.V., Snails, Man ji

Man_From_India

Morning

I once had a talk with John Lawler regarding the wh interrogative clause and fused relative clause. He doesn't follow that terminology. To him, it's something different. I can't remember his terminologies. But it seems that they are similar to fused relatives and embedded interrogative clause.

Oh i remember he used conjunctive wh and disjunctive wh.

Conjunctive is known fact.

Pullum k also says similar thing in a different way. He said if we can add else with wh word it's interrogative clause. That pretty much says what Lawler said.

> This isn't how tragic endings work.

If we analyse it that way. It has to be fused relative or conjunctive wh. how tragic endings work is known. Otherwise one cannot say that it doesn't work that way. Moreover the addition of else makes it strange.

So my initial conclusion that it's not a fused relative is wrong. @snailplane

CowperKettle

The recently-installed plaque in Pervouralsk (50 km to the west from our city)

Anonymous

04:18

@Man_From_India Fused relative is more or less specific to CGEL's framework. I would expect John Lawler to use the term free relative, since that's what McCawley calls them.

Anonymous

The conjunctive wh and disjunctive wh terms are from Haj Ross.

Anonymous

I'm not really familiar with that approach.

Man_From_India

But all the similar, just different terminology.

Damkerng T.

06:42

@Man_From_India nods -- I agree. These sentences (This isn't how tragic endings work.) are unlike the sentence (fragment) in the ad. The How tragic endings on AXN was a sentence fragment on its own, if I'm not mistaken. (They bombard the audience with fragments to convince how thrill their series are.) It could've been How tragic ending's, but that would be weird in another way. (cc @snailplane)

Damkerng T.

07:10

Ah! That spot just came up again. It's just a case of mishearing. (The first time I heard it my mind wasn't really on TV.) Sorry about the confusion. In the ad, the actual text is And some ... have tragic endings. @Man_From_India, @snailplane

Færd

09:18

From Oxford American Dictionary under 'conditional':

> If something is conditional on something else, it can only happen if this other thing happens first; the one thing depends on the other.

Is that 'the' used correctly? The only similar case I know of is the on the one hand ... on the other hand idiom.

Rubisco

@Færd I thing there should be a 'i.e.' instead of a 'the' there

Færd

You thing so?

And I find this other thing rather informal and unsuitable for a dictionary definition.

Rubisco

Heh, now that's a first

I guess my fingers are turning into Dam's.

Anonymous

09:44

@Færd Well, you can certainly use the with one. In this particular case I might get rid of it, though.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ah, thanks for letting us know :-)

Færd

@snailplane But the one thing is it's not always grammatical to do so.

Isn't on the one hand an odd expression?

Anonymous

@Færd It doesn't seem ungrammatical to use the here.

Færd

@snailplane Okay. Thanks.

Anonymous

I just don't know that it's necessary to mark it as definite with the.

Færd

09:48

Happy vigil, BTW.

Anonymous

google.com/search?hl=ja&q=%22the+one+thing+i%22

Færd

@snailplane Yeah, they're all followed by an adjectival clause (beginning with I). That's normal.

Anonymous

Yeah, right? 'Cause the relative clause makes it definite, so the is felicitous.

Færd

Yes.

Anonymous

But it should be okay if anything in the context makes it felicitous.

Færd

09:52

Hmm. I guess I'm getting your point.

Anonymous

(I avoid "adjectival clause" because I think parts of speech make weak metaphors for function because most of them have varied and overlapping functions, and I think distinguishing category from function is important.)

Færd

I wanted to refer to its function, but still maybe I should've said relative clause?

Or adjectival relative clause?

Anonymous

Yes, I just don't use "adjectival" as a label for a function because I think lexical categories make weak metaphors for functions.

Anonymous

So I don't say anything has adjectival function.

Færd

Thanks.

Mike SQ

10:12

Can any one point out the flaw in the following sentence, please -"How much less intelligent a rat is than a rabbit?" , Thanks.

Færd

@MikeSQ a rat is --> is a rat

Because it's a question.

Færd

10:32

You can also ask "By how much is a rat less intelligent than a rabbit?" if you want a quantitative answer, I think.

Mike SQ

@Færd if I drop the question mark? I was considering this headline - "Here’s How Much Less the British Pound Is Worth Today After Last Night’s Flash Crash"

I mean is it ok for informal writing / speaking ?

Færd

@MikeSQ That headline is a complete sentence. If you drop the question mark from yours, it won't be a complete sentence.

Unless you put an exclamation point (!) at the end to suggest that you're surprised by how much a rat is less intelligent than a rabbit.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Sorry about the misinformation! :-)

Mike SQ

.. you mean "After Last Night’s Flash Crash" makes the sentence complete? ok.

Færd

@MikeSQ No. "Here's" completes it.

Damkerng T.

10:37

Headlines don't have to be full sentences, BTW.

Færd

Yes.

Mike SQ

@Færd Thanks to you and Damkern, for your help.

Færd

Sure.

Damkerng T.

No problem!

> A fact-packed Spa Statistics column helps you establish at a glance the spa type, spa size, facilities, treatments and therapies, provisions for couples, availability of spa cuisine, services, recreation options, and contact details of each spa.

This establish at a glance is a little odd, I think.

The article A in A fact-packed Spa Statistics column is also odd.

Færd

'Cause establishing takes more than a glance, huh?

Damkerng T.

10:42

And really, ...

> ... treatments Ayurveda facials with neck and head massage, Ayurvedic treatments; body cocoons with hay, mare's milk, honey and evening primrose oil; Esalen Bodywork, Lomi Lomi Nui Massage, Shiatsu and Intuitive Sensitive Massage, ...

I have no idea what Intuitive Sensitive Massage is.

Færd

Sounds sexy.

Damkerng T.

@Færd Not something like that. I think we can use establish in the sense of "discover" (i.e., establish something after our discovery), but it's just odd in that sentence.

@Færd Hehe!

It's the only book in Google Books that has Intuitive Sensitive Massage, BTW.

It's used as a source in our answer: ell.stackexchange.com/a/105975/3281

Færd

I guess establish can be used to simply mean find out or determine, but I have to look it up again to make sure.

Damkerng T.

(But I wonder if the English in the book is exemplary.)

@Færd Yes, but I find that using it in the sense of find out or determine like in the book is odd, because all the facts are already laid out for the reader.

Færd

Hmm.

Damkerng T.

10:48

It's like the author wanted to elevate the language by substituting something more plain (maybe find) with another thing they think is synonymous.

(Which it is, but as we all know, synonyms aren't always interchangeable.)

0

Q: What is the meaning of this sentence?

Source Sentence goes like this: The man goes through airport screening and manages to persuade security that his biological samples--one for each of the many cities on his itinerary--are harmless What does mean by one for each of the many cities on his itinerary--are harmless?

meaning

LOL -- I was able to guess which movie before I clicked the link! :D

IIRC, Tokyo and Bangkok were ones of those cities.

Færd

@DamkerngT. In this particular case I guess establish may be alright. Dictionaries do suggest that when you establish something, you (1) find the facts and (2) prove the claim, but maybe there's room for some permissiveness: youtu.be/IzfZf1kxxI4?t=71

Damkerng T.

That establish is fine with me.

Mainly because they just learned/gathered the facts.

It's weird in the book, though.

Færd

It says you instantly learn the facts by looking at the column.

Damkerng T.

I suppose that's the author's intention.

Well, it must be, because it's obvious.

The question is, is it really good usage?

Færd

In what way do you find it different from the one you just said was fine?

Damkerng T.

11:01

If I were to write the way they write, I might write something like: Google Maps allows you to establish at a glance a place, and its details.

See, isn't that a bit weird?

It's weird, semantically, to me.

Maybe it's like the difference between my usage of related to and yours. :-)

Færd

@DamkerngT. Yes it is, because you establish a fact (e.g. where sth is) not a thing (a place).

Damkerng T.

@Færd That's precisely what the book did to me. :D

Færd

I see. I must be agreeing with you then. :)

In fact, I agree.

Damkerng T.

Yay! :D

Færd

Cya later.

Damkerng T.

11:05

See you soon! o/

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. thanks. It helps :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe! Sorry about the misunderstanding! :D

The narrator in the spot says, And some and then pauses like one or maybe two seconds before saying have tragic endings. :-)

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. no problem :-)

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure why I heard it as how, but maybe it was because when I glanced up at the screen, I saw only TRAGIC ENDINGS and my brain filled in the rest.

Man_From_India

Was watching x men. And then race to witch mountains.

Race to witch mountains. I heard about this movie. But never watched it. It's a nice movie.

@DamkerngT. it happens.

Damkerng T.

11:15

I can't remember Race to Witch Mountain much, except for the boy with the truck scene.

I think it was nice, generally.

Man_From_India

Alien movie

Damkerng T.

nods

Is Westworld broadcast in your region?

Man_From_India

Didn't check it.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Man_From_India

Probably I would find it on YouTube :-)

Damkerng T.

11:21

Oh, you sure will. I just checked it out on YouTube and learned that they cut probably two to four good minutes out of the version broadcast locally over here. :D

Man_From_India

Probably uploader's mistake

Damkerng T.

It doesn't disrupt the show much, but there are some discontinuities and some information lost.

@Man_From_India Ah, I mean the uploaded version is more complete. :D

(Though the video is not as sharp.)

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. Probably censored in your area.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Oh, definitely!

They cut out a scene where a girl kissed a female robot.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. strange! I think in that case it's worse than here.

Damkerng T.

11:24

So I missed a point about the relationship between her and robots the first time I watched it.

@Man_From_India Other missing scenes are quite understandable. They're a bit too explicit.

BTW, by "a girl", I mean a grown-up woman.

Man_From_India

will check out westworld later. Gotta go. It's festive season here. Bengali's biggest celebration.

Damkerng T.

Oh, sounds very nice! Have fun!

Rubisco

@Man_From_India Indians are always celebrating

Do you guys ever cry?

Damkerng T.

@Rubisco LOL

@Rubisco They sing and dance. :D

Man_From_India

@Rubisco We do more too. That's why. To complement it, we celebrate more :P

Rubisco

11:28

I guess they have a dance for crying too

ColleenV

Good morning-afternoon-evening

Rubisco

\o

ColleenV

You would have thought by now the Internet would have created a word for whatever-time-of-day-it-is-where-you-are :)

I guess I could just say Howdy!

Rubisco

People seem to be conservative regarding greetings

Damkerng T.

@ColleenV Hello!

Rubisco

11:38

@Colleen I wonder when we start

Damkerng T.

It's Good Morning, BTW, according to the concept of UGT. :D

Mar 21 at 9:35, by Damkerng T.

> UGT (abbr.): Universal Greeting Time.
UGT is convention initially established in #mipslinux on irc.openprojects.net (now irc.freenode.net) but slowly taking over the world. It states that it is always morning when person comes into a channel, and it is always late night when person leaves. Local time of any member of channel is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. Your ass will be laminated. (geoman is exception to this rule - his ass will be fried instead).

Rubisco

You know, trying to get our meta.ELL shit together

ColleenV

@Rubisco Lol cut me some slack I'm working on it

Rubisco

But I wanna do work!

ColleenV

I will spend my weekend finding actions we can try to make a decision on - I edited my answer to put Sunday as a deadline

Rubisco

11:40

I'm so tired of arguing and arguing and arguing

ColleenV

It's frustrating I know

It's like housework - as soon as you think you have something clean, it starts getting dirty again. It's never done.

Rubisco

But haven't cleaned anything.

I'm fine with redoing cleaning because things always get dirty.

But we haven't cleaned the house for so long, I see spider webs here and there

ColleenV

That's why I think maybe instead of voting on a long list of initiatives, I'm going to just pick one or three.

Something easy that will be a "Yes" so we can do something

Damkerng T.

What the?!

I was thinking that it might be a good idea (for us) to edit something collaboratively using, say, Canvas.

But Canvas is not Firefox-friendly!

Rubisco

11:57

@DamkerngT. I'm not good at painting

Damkerng T.

@Rubisco I think it's actually for typing. :-)

Rubisco

I'm not good at typing either

I have a measly 100k chat messages

ColleenV

@Rubisco Quantity is not necessarily quality :)

I am not a typist - I am a typoist

Rubisco

ColleenV

and the auto-correct on my mobile phone has been programmed to make me look stupid

@DamkerngT. I haven't looked at Canvas before - I was just going to do a community wiki answer

Damkerng T.

12:04

I think if we want to organize our tags for real, we need to have some sort of "compendium" or glossary of tags. Something similar to lagb-education.org/glossary-online.

(Which was why I was looking for a collaborative editor)

Rubisco

@DamkerngT. This thought occurred to me before, but since it's kinda . . . revolutionary . . . I dunno if we can pull it off as well as we aim to

I was thinking of a couple of meta posts to give a hot start

You know, it's like building a sculpture.

ColleenV

15

Q: Proposed ELU tagging guideline

I am suggesting to create a guideline post describing how to tag specifically for the ELU taxonomy. The discussions in chat and all the posts and comments regarding tags on meta lead me to believe that such a guideline could massively improve the state of our taxonomy going forward. If it's well ...

discussion tags guideline

Damkerng T.

nods

Rubisco

First, we remove large pieces of stones

That's the bulkiest part of the job.

And when it starts taking the shape of our sculpture, we get to the finer details

ColleenV

One thing I have learned programming as part of my work is that the code should be the documentation.

Rubisco

12:07

So I'd think I just make a meta post.

ColleenV

We want to document the tags "in place" not in a separate place

Rubisco

You guys propose tags that should go.

And it's OBVIOUS that they should go.

Because, I dunno, they're duplicates and such

Then we start burning them.

Damkerng T.

grammar is still our top tag, I think.

Rubisco

. . . for which we'll need mods' help.

After that, we'll get to the finer details.

Like whether or not we want vs. tags.

Or whether the sentence- distinction is useful.

We all know that tag hierarchies would've been our best bet.

But we're not gonna have that feature.

But we can build the tag system so it'd function like one.

Like a hierarchy, I mean.

The most important thing here is that I shouldn't be the only person shouting on the meta, with no one to help

I NEED HELP

ColleenV

I think we should steal (or rather be inspired by) some of Helmar's work on EL&U

0

Q: List of tags that are blacklisted, burninated or under discussion

I had a look at the meta discussions that are about burninating, blacklisting/deleting or creating tags. I made a list of them. Why? It's for two purposes. Firstly, to have an overview about our taxonomy efforts besides tag synonyms. Secondly to track reappearing tags that have been burninated by...

discussion tags

Damkerng T.

12:11

nods

ColleenV

I don't want the initiatives to be about nothing but tags though, because I feel like a good portion of the community cares more about other things. Help center text I think is the other initiative we should do some work on.

And the tags is a huge block of granite that needs a lot of sculpting

er there's an agreement problem there, but I haven't had my coffee yet

Rubisco

in The Periodic Table, 11 secs ago, by Chemobot

(づ๑ʖ๑)┛︵ɥǝꞁd ɔǝuʇǝɹ

Help center is a lost cause.

We can make more FAQ-tagged meta posts, but not the help center

ColleenV

I am going to figure out how to get etymology out of the help center text

I'm tired of arguing about whether it's on or off topic

Better to not be so specific and just handle each question as it comes

Rubisco

@ColleenV That's a side-issue. The time spent on discussing etymology's on-topicality is twice the time spent on the related posts

The only obvious thing here is that we have a buttload of posts that need edits.

Damkerng T.

BTW, I've noticed a recent pattern of our new questions: OP asks 'What's the difference between [...] and [...]' and then someone googled for an answer (it's easy to find an answer to this kind of question on the internet) and posted it.

I'm not sure if this pattern should be encouraged.

Rubisco

12:15

After the most crucial things have been done, we might think of consistency in our post's formatting to give the site a more official look.

@DamkerngT. Yup, that's what happens when the site turns into a please-Google-for-me-I'm-too-lazy land

ColleenV

@DamkerngT. I don't like to see answers that are mostly copy and pasted from other sites.

Damkerng T.

Speaking of on or off topic makes me think of our online*/*offline question.

Rubisco

Which will only get worse unless we think of something.

Damkerng T.

1

Q: The story behind Offline / Online

Everybody is using those phrases but I've never asked that question. What is really behind the words Online and Offline? As an extension I'm also asking: Are those phrases still valid nowadays when you'd write "I'm online on ..."? Because you aren't directly connected. (I know that it could be,...

vocabulary definition history

This is sort of etymology-ish, I think.

Rubisco

Sites refine all aspects of their on-topic/off-topic policies.

Damkerng T.

12:17

But we seem to be okay with it.

Rubisco

But we're only arguing about etymology.

Damkerng T.

1

Q: What is the difference between a "book" and a "tome"?

Can anybody tell me if there is a difference in meaning and/or usage of "a book" vs "a tome"? So far, I found on the internet that: a book is a general, versatile term a tome is an unusually thick book Is that correct? Thanks!

meaning meaning-in-context word-meaning definition

An example. :D

0

A: "I must go to school" or "I have to go to school" Are they interchangeable or not?

Must is also used in the past, it depends on the context: The modal verb must has two past tense forms: ‘had to’ and ‘must have.’ Which form we use depends on whether we want to express obligation or if we want to say how certain we are about the probability of something happening. When e...

Another example.

ColleenV

I share your concerns about some of these questions

We're going to run into the "single word request" problem that EL&U has

Damkerng T.

That's quite possible!

ColleenV

They're popular questions because they're easy to answer and easy to get reputation from

but they aren't really questions that inspire in-depth thoughtful answers

I don't know how to fix that problem though

without the community deciding to aggressively edit/close/down-vote answers and questions that are trivial

but it's hard to strike a balance and make sure our learners are getting helped

Damkerng T.

12:22

I think it happens on EL&U because SWR is not really off-topic.

@ColleenV Indeed

ColleenV

There are some fluent folks asking questions that aren't really in the spirit of ELL I think, but it's not up to me to have the last word on what ELL should look like

I'm a slacker and that's waaaay too much responsibility to take on :)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

I'm going to head off to do some chores for a while. BBL o/

ColleenV

Catch you later! I did make a "campaign promise" to be in chat more, so I thought I'd drop by but I have some stuff to take care of as well.

Man_From_India

13:20

0

Q: That car, to me, is what your house is to you/That car is to me what your house is to you

That car, to me, is what your house is to you. That car is to me what your house is to you. Are both the above sentences grammatically correct? Do they mean the same thing?

grammaticality sentence-structure

V.V.

I got a yearling badge on ELU. Time flies!

Man_From_India

@V.V. yay congrats!

V.V.

Thank you. It was quite unexpected.

Damkerng T.

@V.V. Congrats!

V.V.

Thanks, Dam.

I am not sure if it's possible to include "to me" into the subject. Are you?

Man_From_India

13:38

Actually this to me is like a perspective or point of view to me. It's like adjunct. Similar The new iphone 7 at a glance is fantastic.

hmmmm if I go a little further, I think it can be put into the class of what we call clause oriented adjunct like usually.

V.V.

As for SWR, I think it's not always easy for a learner to find a proper definition. It took me quite a long time to find the religious aspect of "retreat " applied to a group of students in a convent.

Man_From_India

SWR?

V.V.

They discussed single word requests earlier.

Man_From_India

oh i see.

V.V.

13:54

Can adjuncts be added unlimitedly ?

Man_From_India

@V.V. hard to say.

Damkerng T.

@V.V. It's not really part of the subject, I think.

Word of the Day: ramshackle

0

Q: Can it be used for referring to person?

I read one dailogue. It goes as following: A: Is this your family？ B: Yes, it is. A: What a big family! Is this your sister? B: Yes, it is. Her name is Linda. A: Are these your grandparents? B: Yes, they are. My mum's parents are on the left. I was confused here by "Yes, it is". I believe it sh...

pronouns

The dialogue is a bit strange, I think.

"Is this your sister?" "Yes, that's my sister." -- I think this is more natural.

(I guess they're looking at a photo or something.)

Some curious answers (opinions?) in this thread: quora.com/…

For example, Richard Garrett, Lifelong English speaker, wrote:

> "Is this Richard?" "Yes, it is."
"Are you Richard?" "Yes, I am."
"Is that the President of the United States?" "Yes, it is."
"Is he the President of the United States?" "Yes, he is."

Let's play along.

Then, he wrote:

> "Is Trump running for president?" "Yes he is."
"Is that billionaire running for President?" "Yes, he is."
"Is the presidency what he wants?" "Yes, it is."

Note that by adding billionaire, it changes his opinion:

> "Is that the President of the United States?" "Yes, it is."

> "Is that billionaire running for President?" "Yes, he is."

Curious.

(Oh, he changed the rest of the second sentence, actually.)

> Note there are similar situations in which 'it' might be used to refer to a person. For example:
"Who's that knocking on the door?"
"It is Bob, our neighbor from across the street."

This is not technically correct, IMHO.

That's a dummy-it. That it doesn't refer to Bob.

Hmm... maybe it's more technically precise to say that Bob is not the antecedent of that it.

Man_From_India

15:03

> I assumed this made it more of a routine social enquiry and tried to answer it the same spirit.

I understand the sentence, but if I delete that it, will that sentence still be grammatical?

user227867

Hey @DamkerngT. long time no see!

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. I think so. it in it is Bob is a dummy pronoun. Just like it is in my sentence above I assumed that made it more of a routine social enquiry...

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India I mentally inserted in before the same spirit automatically.

@WillHunting Hi! How are you?

user227867

@DamkerngT. I have read all the contents pages and forewords and prefaces to the four Nikayas, lol.

Damkerng T.

@WillHunting I suppose all were in Pali (or Sanskrit) because they're not easy to translate. :)

Anonymous

16:02

@DamkerngT. Maybe you could think of it as an elliptical it-cleft:

Anonymous

> Who's that knocking on our door?

Anonymous

> It's Bob ~~that's knocking on our door~~.

Anonymous

Might be a theoretically weak explanation, though :-)

CowperKettle

Good morning, @snailplane!

Damkerng T.

@snailplane nods -- Totally agreed! I think that makes sense. Anything but it referring to Bob as mentioned on that page. :-)

BTW, I didn't know that gentlewoman is a real word!

Anonymous

16:07

Ah, CGEL uses the same explanation.

Anonymous

Good morning! :-)

Rubisco

@DamkerngT. So you thought it's fake or something? How can a word be fake?

@snailplane Morning

Damkerng T.

@Rubisco Well, it always is ladies and gentlemen, so I didn't expect it! :-)

Good morning/evening, everyone!

Rubisco

@DamkerngT. Gentles and ladymen! O.O

CowperKettle

16:26

(0:

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. oh I overlooked it :O that in should be there, isn't it?

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