Language Overflow

CowperKettle

02:51

CowperKettle

03:06

Good morning all, by the way. I'm busy a bit. Good night, Snails. (0:

Anonymous

04:24

Good night, Kettle o' Cowper!

Anonymous

05:20

My reputation on this site is now almost entirely mullet-based.

Damkerng T.

07:29

@snailplane :D

Lawrence

09:20

@CowperKettle It depends. There are two things joined by 'and'. Is the second thing you determined "the rate of biochemical response" or did you determine simply "the biochemical response"?

Damkerng T.

09:58

0

Q: Doesn't, Don't or not?

I have a simple question of English. This is correct? The type "red" doesn't exist. Or "not" or "don't"? And why? The type "red" ______ exist. doesn't not don't I know what "does" is use if the person is "he, she, it".

My native language is spanish. — SinNombre SinApellido 42 mins ago

And I thought conjugations in Spanish is more complex than in English!

It is, isn't it?!

V.V.

Sawasdee kha, Dam.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Much more complicated.

Damkerng T.

@V.V. Sawasdee khrap!

Word of the Day: earmark

Anonymous

11:34

@CowperKettle @V.V. Any idea about this? meta.ell.stackexchange.com/q/3214/230

StoneyB

11:50

Hi, @Arrowfar

user233358

Hello @StoneyB!

user233358

How are you?

StoneyB

Working on my first cup of coffee for the day, so it's hard to say.

user233358

:)

user233358

It must be night time there right?

user233358

11:51

Here it is around 4:50 PM

StoneyB

No, 7:00 am (O700).

user233358

Ah.

StoneyB

I have the whole day in front of me (provided I turn my email and phone off).

user233358

so busy life huh? That's cool.

StoneyB

I'm trying to get awake enough to read a chapter of McCawley's Sytactic Phenomena in English. Maybe two chapters.

Stack Exchange

11:58

0

Q: English texts with Russian translation

Can you give me some web sites where I can find English texts for intermediate level with translation to Russian? I going to memorize the texts to improve my speaking skill.

discussion

user233358

Nice. First time I have heard of that book.

StoneyB

It was recommended by John Lawler, the retired linguistics professor over on ELU. It's very dense (but very well written), and every time I read even a little piece of it I come away with a better understanding of the language.

Correction: Syntactic Phenomena of English.

user233358

Yes, I know him from ELU. He is a good linguist like you.

StoneyB

No, no, no, not like me! He is a Linguist, capital-L: he knows this stuff. I've only been sniffing around the edges for a couple of years.

user233358

Haha, okay

StoneyB

12:06

Prof. Lawler is like a top-level system engineer; I'm just a coder with a knack for reasonably clean subroutines.

user233358

So are you retired or still work (like a day job etc.)?

StoneyB

I'm still working. That's why I have to turn my email and phone off on weekends!

user233358

oh I see. Heh.

StoneyB

What do you do? ... When you're not Chatting?

user233358

Oh I'm studying to be a chartered accountant the equivalent in USA is CPA you might know.

user233358

12:13

It is very tough.

user233358

But I might never get there because I failed some papers and now reattempting them.

user233358

I had a part time job, I quit. Now looking for a new one these days.

V.V.

@snailplane, I answered.

StoneyB

It is tough. I often thought back in the days when I was a starving artist that I should have taken accounting--it would have given me a day job I could live on.

Hello, @V.V.!

user233358

Yeah true. People get in this field because money is good but the work is very exhausting and I feel like giving up sometimes, because exams and stress. It is a killer :)

user233358

12:17

I don't make much now. I am a junior now, still, of course.

user233358

If I move to UK then of course it will pay off. I'm doing the UK version by the way, ICAEW.

user233358

But Pakistan is a kind of poor country so people move to west after receiving their education or continue their studies there.

StoneyB

Since I became a writer I've had to learn a little accounting--more sniffing around the edges!--because many of our clients are financial-services corporations and I have to be able to explain stuff to their employees and customers. The basics are pretty easy--e.g., bookkeeping--but once you get beyond that there's lots of room for "creativity". It's a little frightening.

user233358

Ah I see. Yeah true. Basic stuff is a piece of cake, bookkeeping etc.

user233358

But then it gets complex when we do "consolidation" of businesses etc. "Consolidation" is a complex topic in accounting. Also there is audit. Mostly people go into audit here.

user233358

12:27

Which is kind of funny because where I live there is a lot of corruption and audit seems hilarious.

user233358

Well, such is life.

user233358

:)

StoneyB

I know, very well. I had to do a piece four or five years ago on consolidating international holdings under US accounting and reporting regulations.

user233358

Oh, I see. Nice.

user233358

Yeah, they follow "International Financial Reporting Standards" (IFRSs). They are quite complex, in that there are a lot of them and quite difficult to remember.

user233358

12:30

So one of the exam I failed was about IFRSs heh.

user233358

But I managed to pass it on the second attempt.

user233358

Then there are many IASs "International auditing standards". But now at junior level I use the local stuff.

StoneyB

This was specifically under GAAP, which is the US standard and differs in some respects (which I don't remember) from IFRS.

user233358

Yeah GAAP, exactly. UK and US accounting is quite different. Here they are teaching me UK stuff since ICAEW/ACCA is their qualification.

user233358

People here who want to move to US they have to do quite a number of courses I hear to become a CPA. Also your legal structure is different, work experience of the country counts etc. lots of factors.

StoneyB

12:36

Fersher. The governing consideration is satisfying the tax examiners!

@Arrowfar Yes; we have overlapping jurisdictions, too--state and federal authorities--which don't all follow the same rules.

user233358

Yeah that. Different states, different rules and laws.

user233358

I hope my boring discussion didn't make you drink up another cup of coffee ;-)

StoneyB

Not boring at all! ... In any case, I live on coffee.

user233358

12:51

oh good :D

user233358

What about tea? Do you like tea?

Lawrence

Here's one for the English-as-second-language people here: are you taught things like those in the following article?

qz.com/773738/…

StoneyB

I drank a good deal of tea when I was in grad school, but I rarely do any more. The US is not a big tea-drinking country, except for iced tea particularly in the south.

Hello, @Lawrence.

Lawrence

@StoneyB Hi!

@StoneyB Were you working as an accountant on the project?

V.V.

Hi.

Lawrence

12:58

@V.V. Hi!

V.V.

Yes, we are taught like this and we teach like this. I also live on coffe, Stoney.

StoneyB

@Lawrence Oh, no. I'm not an accountant, just a writer with a firm the corporation hired to create training modules. I knew nothing about consolidation going in, and I forgot almost everything I learned when the project was done!

V.V.

Oh, coffee, of course.

Lawrence

@V.V. Interesting. It would be handy to have had this kind of advice. It looks too detailed and too constrained, and yet it can come in handy. I wonder whether the learn-by-osmosis version works any better (i.e. read many books, and develop a natural feel for what works). I suppose it does, with all the pros and cons of going the long way around.

@StoneyB Haha. It sounds interesting to be able to visit other professions and spend some time in their shoes.

V.V.

There are usually not more than tree or two adjectives in a sentence, the first one is usually opinion

Btw,"feel" is for native speakers only.

Lawrence

13:08

@V.V. That's a lovely, crowded beach. That's a crowded, lovely beach. Strangely enough, it actually works. Even the version with the long string of adjectives sounds better in the order they suggest.

StoneyB

@Lawrence I think that grammatical study, particularly syntax, can be a valuable shortcut for learners: in effect, it can take the place of the native speaker's internal (and largely unconscious) generalization process. But eventually it runs up against the brute fact that almost every word has its own pattern of constructions it enters into -- so the learner is eventually thrust back on experience and familiarity.

2

Lawrence

@V.V. Maybe it's from going the long way around. Which means non-native speakers can get there as well, provided they take the time to do the same.

Anonymous

It should really be called the unmarked adjective order. It's not a strict rule, and there are times you want to use a marked order.

StoneyB

@Lawrence Yes, indeed; it makes every project a venture into unknown territory.

Lawrence

@StoneyB Yes, I agree. I've just been looking at a question relevant to this - both versions of the following sound idiomatic to me. The difference seems to be whether the 'secret' is something that ought to have already been told, or whether it is something (like a surprise) that can be delayed without (moral?) consequence.

2

Q: Which one should I choose? tell vs told

Which one should I choose: Don't you think it's time you tell vs told Adrea the truth?

past-tense

Damkerng T.

13:13

@Lawrence Oh, yes. It's in grammar books!

I'm not saying that I succeeded in learning it, though. :-)

StoneyB

@snailplane A new term! I embrace it with fervor: My tables--meet it is I set it down.

Damkerng T.

Good evening, everyone!

@DamkerngT. it may idiomatically use past tense for "it's time you ..." , but I don't think there is a formal and sane grammar for that and that idiom is an exception. — Ahmad 26 mins ago

StoneyB

@Lawrence In my idiolect only the told version works; but I have a vague sense that the construction is evolving to accommodate the present-tense version.

Lawrence

@snailplane Thanks, "marked" is actually evocative of the effect.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... he seemed to argue with the language. In any case, I don't think there's only one way to say it.

Lawrence

13:17

@DamkerngT. Between memorising those lists and reading a couple of good novels, I think I'd prefer the novels. :P

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence I've read a tower of novels, and maybe it's just that I'm very bad at language learning, just reading novels isn't the solution for me.

My cat is cooing again!

Lawrence

@StoneyB I think the tell version is fine in something like "Don't you think it's time you tell them your ideas about growing the company?" There seems to be a slightly more excited / anticipatory tone to it than "Don't you think it's time you told them your ideas about growing the company?", which sounds more accusatory.

@DamkerngT. You write pretty well. I think the reading helped.

Damkerng T.

What's strange to me in the question is nobody mentioned ... you think it's time to tell ...

Lawrence

(I need to step away for a while. I'll try to check back in later.)

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence It helps, of course. Just not the true solution for me. :-)

StoneyB

13:31

It's time I read (ha! parse that!) SPE. 'Bye all.

Damkerng T.

Have a fine day!

V.V.

13:47

Wow, I got a new badge!

Damkerng T.

@V.V. Yay! What badge is it?

Cardinal

14:02

Hi folk

> Either is always paired with or, and neither is always paired with nor.

Is that really true?

Source:

thewritepractice.com/…

Anonymous

@Cardinal No

Cardinal

nods I have seen single neither or either in many sentences.

V.V.

14:42

@DamkerngT. Quorum

Damkerng T.

@V.V. Nice!

user62015

@DamkerngT. Hi

A quick question

Damkerng T.

Hi!

user62015

Few people were present ,————— ?
(A) weren’t they (B) were they (C) wasn’t they (D) was they

option b as few means nothing right?

V.V.

B

user62015

14:44

Yes and reason?

V.V.

Few is negative

user62015

Yes,.

Thanks

Cardinal

> What extra information would using regardless add?

V.V.

What was the answer?

Cardinal

I wanted to leave that comment, but I hesitate if it's really correct

user62015

14:46

B

V.V.

@Cardinal what are you talking about?

Cardinal

4 mins ago, by Cardinal

> What extra information would using regardless add?

does that sentence correct?

Damkerng T.

I think b) is clearly supposed to be the correct answer. I was thinking it sounded so artificial, though.

@Cardinal Should be okay.

Cardinal

I have no idea what I was think that would sound unnatural. Perhaps, because of "extra"...

I deleted my question :D

Damkerng T.

:D

> "Being rich wouldn't be so bad! But I can't get miserable if it doesn't happen cos so few people are really loaded, are they?"
Michelle, 10, Gorton

> news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/chat/your_comments/newsid_2854000/…

This looks a bit weird, especially because of that cos!

Maybe it's a BrE thing.

Stack Exchange

15:18

1

Q: How much basic is ELL expected to go?

As per the site rules the "English Language Learners Stack Exchange" is for people who: are learning or teaching English as a foreign language. According to the descriptions given above, ELL addresses mainly two very different audiences: 1) learners, who are mainly non natives,...

discussion

Damkerng T.

15:45

Another strange thing in Google Ngram: no chart for it's time he told (or she or tell or tells).

Færd

16:20

@DamkerngT. I lack the motivation. :)

Damkerng T.

@Færd :D -- I think I understand that.

-1

Q: definite and indefinite articles

This is a pretty forward question that requires a straightforward one piece with no possibilities answer. I'm not a native English speaker or a dweller of an English speaking country, but I paid a hell lot of money to learn English from a native British nationalities in a fully certified learni...

grammar definite-article indefinite-article

Aww.. when real English is too "real"!

Personally, I think it could be a very good and interesting question if the OP toned it down a little.

Being a non-native speaker, it's hard to guess why younger people do that.

(It could be just a typo, but it may be not. It looks like it's intentional to me. Also note that in his videos, he always pronounces "an eye-phone", which is correct.)

(Maybe the spelling is used just to get attention.)

(But who knows?!)

(Another clip by the same YouTuber with "a iPhone" in the title: Do NOT Vape from a iPhone)

Really!! I get a down-vote and my answer could be closed. @JavaLatte I'm just angry that is not what I was taught so you do not come up with a grammar error and call it a matter of opinion. I'm asking this question just on the hope that I'm wrong or maybe the English grammar recently got an update that I do not of, really I'm not being sarcastic the french did something like that about 8 months or so ago. — AndrewMk 1 min ago

Oh! French grammar was updated recently?! Wonderful! Did they simplify it like China simplified the characters?

Ahh... maybe this news: theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/05/…

CowperKettle

16:59

Good evening all!

CowperKettle

17:19

Alcoride is fun. (0:

It was quite cold though. (0:

Hard to believe that 2 weeks back it was +25C

Not a real alcoride too, just a couple of glasses, but still good. We baked some fish.

And I took a kilo of meat with spices.. yummy.

And this is the condition of the roads.. (0: So my washing machine has some work ahead now.

Some fire jumping (0:

-2

Q: definite and indefinite articles

This is a pretty forward question that requires a straightforward one piece with no possibilities answer. I'm not a native English speaker or a dweller of an English speaking country, but I paid a hell lot of money to learn English from a native British nationalities in a fully certified learni...

grammar definite-article indefinite-article

> this is shit this is not what I paid my money for to learn English and my English native speaker teacher (regardless of his nationality which is British ) described that is is not legit to write such bullshit this is not English

Maybe this explains it: "According to a study conducted in late April by the U.S. Department of Education and the National Institute of Literacy, 32 million adults in the U.S. can’t read. That’s 14 percent of the population. 21 percent of adults in the U.S. read below a 5th grade level, and 19 percent of high school graduates can’t read." huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/06/illiteracy-rate_n_3880355.html — JavaLatte 33 mins ago

That's hard to believe

How can an adult earn a living if he can't read?

@JavaLatte so why Glorfindel is suggesting it is a duplicate, that means the possibility that " a iphone " is not an error. please to all the idiots going down-vote, my question is totally legit and different and also backed by a real-live example. just answer this is this sentence legit in English grammar " I got a iphone " ?, if you dont answer and just down-vote then you prove my theory that your just an idiot and a wuss. — AndrewMk 25 mins ago

Damkerng T.

17:49

@CowperKettle They can talk to their followers? :P

@CowperKettle Whoa! Dangerous!

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. Followers?

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle Like on social networks. :D

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. No, not really. (0:

@DamkerngT. Ah!

CowperKettle

18:00

1

A: definite and indefinite articles

I don't think it's because of illiteracy in this particular case, the presenter is obviously very articulate. If you listen to the vblog he's sounding "hip" and "cool" since he's received a prerelease of the iPhone 7, from Tom Cook personally no less. The "slangish" wording the presenter is usin...

A good level-headed answer

Damkerng T.

I think it's not a very good answer.

Gotta? I don't buy it.

Was he trying to write Do NOT Vape fromma iPhone in the title of another clip? I don't think so.

Could be a good opinion-based comment, though.

CowperKettle

Ah.. okay

Thanks Peter that is perfect, appreciated :) — AndrewMk 2 mins ago

Damkerng T.

That's a bit sad.

But maybe what they were looking for wasn't really an answer.

CowperKettle

It's breaking my heart.

Damkerng T.

> Now that really **pisses me off**, like really. The boy in the video is supposed to be American (I guess to be fair, judging from the accent), and he is presumably the one who edited the title of the video, so why **the hell** is he making such a very big mistake making such an easy error and instead of writing the title like this : I Got an iPhone 7 Early he wrote it this "I Got a iPhone 7 Early". this is **shit** this is not what I paid my money for to learn English and my English native speaker teacher (regardless of his nationality which is British ) described that is is not legit to …

CowperKettle

18:08

What dire destiny awaits the befuddled Andrew now, God only knows.

(0:

Damkerng T.

I wonder if we should flag the question or something.

CowperKettle

just an emotional person, hence a bad question

Damkerng T.

nods

user62015

19:07

We decided ——— a picnic .
(A) upon (B) to (C) at (D) for

@DamkerngT. @JimReynolds Hi! Please answer the question and tag me so I can see the answer.

Cardinal

19:19

@user62015 I would go with "for"

user62015

Answer says A

Any possibilties?

Cardinal

However, I am not sure about it since I haven't seen "decide" used in such contexts before.

Let's wait for our Answering Machines! (^_^)

Damkerng T.

I don't think for is really wrong, though in this ExE (Exam English) dialect, it's rather obvious that they want upon.

Though I don't think anybody would really use upon with a picnic IRL! (But maybe it's mandatory in Exam English.)

user62015

Okay

Thnaks

Cardinal

I usualy hear "We agreed on/upon the matter"

Damkerng T.

19:24

idioms.thefreedictionary.com/decide+on

idioms.thefreedictionary.com/decide+for

Cardinal

Awo, I didn't encounter that before :-) - decide on

user62015

@DamkerngT. @Cardinal But I think we never use about or on after decide?

Oh! I am wrong

I found the reason

Thanks

Cardinal

@user62015 check those links

Damkerng T.

No problem! :D

Cardinal

@user62015 Thanks for the question, I didn't know that!

user62015

19:26

@Cardinal @DamkerngT. Thanks and welcome

Cardinal

@CowperKettle Great :-)

user62015

Half of the apples ——— bad.
(A) was (B) were (C) is (D) none of these

Cardinal

@CowperKettle Is that you?

user62015

@DamkerngT. @Cardinal half is singular or plural in English?

Cardinal

Half of the apples can be 5 apples

Damkerng T.

19:29

Yes, what Cardinal said.

Cardinal

when there are 10 apples totally

Damkerng T.

@snailplane My flag was disputed! (ell.stackexchange.com/questions/31037/criticism-or-criticisms/…) -- But it's not an answer, right?!

Cardinal

@DamkerngT. This guys is too furious. Frankly, I just read the question and leave the rest unread, that is to say, the comments and whatever!

Damkerng T.

@Cardinal nods

Maybe they paid their English teacher a lot of money. :P

Cardinal

@DamkerngT. I thought he had problem with the guy who misused the article

Damkerng T.

19:35

It sounded like the YouTuber was just an example. They seemed to mean everyone in general.

Cardinal

In any case, the emphasize on the money and expenditure was obvious!

Damkerng T.

nods

Cardinal

Today, I found something interesting about @V.V

She neither edited any posts nor flagged!

Damkerng T.

:D

Cardinal

:-)

user62015

19:42

@DamkerngT. @V.V. @Cardinal he majority of the boys ——— playing football.
(A) likes (B) like (C) is liked (D) none of these

The*

Majority of follows singular verb or plural verb?

Damkerng T.

Hmm... this mainly depends on your dialect, I think.

user62015

Ok

Cardinal

I think that refers to a group so I would go with singular

user62015

b option is answer

Damkerng T.

5

Q: Is is grammatical to use a mass noun after the phrase "the majority of"?

The majority of people who have a church wedding ... is grammatical because "people" is a countable noun, but, for example, "driving" is not: The majority of driving is done on country roads or highway. So, I wonder if it is good English to use a mass noun after "majority of". Is it?

nouns uncountable-nouns

user62015

19:46

Thanks

Damkerng T.

Conventionally, like an answer says (I think there are many answers about the majority on our site), you can think of the majority as most.

Cardinal

nods

Damkerng T.

Another majority question:

10

Q: What is the difference in meaning between "A majority of" and "The majority of"?

Does a difference in meaning between "A majority of" and "The majority of" exist? For instance, do the following sentences have the same meaning? A majority of the students are expected to vote in the class election. The majority of the students are expected to vote in the class electi...

meaning meaning-in-context articles

V.V.

@user62015 plural

user62015

@V.V. Oksay.

V.V.

19:52

I just wanted to say @Cardinal don't tell anybody... but my connection disappeared.

Cardinal

But I have read before that when we want to refer to a group as a whole we can use "singlar" verbs and treat such noun phrases as singular.

Damkerng T.

> Of this I am certain, that in a democracy, the majority of the citizens is capable of exercising the most cruel oppressions upon the minority, whenever strong divisions prevail in that kind of polity, as they often must; and that oppression of the minority will extend to far greater numbers, and will be carried on with much greater fury, than can almost ever be apprehended from the dominion of a single sceptre.

> bartleby.com/24/3/9.html

(I followed a link given by CowperKettle.)

V.V.

@Cardinal @Advanced Grammar in use

Cardinal

@V.V. Exactly

V.V.

Majority is many

Cardinal

19:54

@DamkerngT. Exactly :-)

Damkerng T.

@Cardinal I surely wouldn't daresay Edmund Berke used bad English. Real English is usually more complicated than Exam/Textbook English.

Which is why I feel more comfortable to think of Exam/Textbook English as another dialect.

It's a solid dialect, in textbooks and exams. :D

Cardinal

@V.V. Your connection is notoriously capricious!

Damkerng T.

It's just somewhat different from "real" English. :D

Cardinal

@DamkerngT. :))

user62015

jakubmarian.com/… @V.V. @DamkerngT. @Cardinal How can we know when we should use singular and plural as you can see the given examples on this website and I could not find any difference in the sentences

Damkerng T.

19:58

When you see this kind of thing on a web, the first reasonable thing is to check a little who wrote it, based on whose books or what references.

user62015

ok

I agree but I am not able to understand any difference in the sentences.

Damkerng T.

Also note that even bestsellers of this kind of book don't agree with other books on everything.

user62015

I think in these sentences I can use whatever verb I want and say it is correct

I agree

Damkerng T.

From Google+: Jakub Marian - I am a mathematician, an artist, and a linguist. - Mathematics, Linguistics, Music, Blogging - jakubmarian.com - Berlin - Berlin Mathematical ...

I don't know who Jakub Marian is, but based on that profile, it's quite likely that English is not his first language.

user62015

I agree

Damkerng T.

20:02

@user62015 Basically, Jakub Marian simplifies the usage (of the majority) down to one rule:

If you use the majority on its own, it's singular. If you use the majority of SOMETHING, it's plural. Period.

user62015

Okay.

Damkerng T.

Whether this is correct or not, you decide.

(upon a picnic, perhaps. :P)

V.V.

What I know a/the majority +plural noun requires are, + uncountable noun requires is

user62015

Will this formula works @DamkerngT. @V.V.?

V.V.

Upon is correct, like on topic

Damkerng T.

20:05

@user62015 It would please Jakub Marian and anyone who agrees with him, obviously. :D

user62015

work*

Cardinal

@DamkerngT. :-)

user62015

a/the majority +plural noun requires are, + uncountable noun requires is

V.V.

I promise to read and"dig" more

Damkerng T.

So, if your teachers or test makers agree with him, you should use the same rule. :D

Cardinal

20:10

Magic lantern

The magic lantern or laterna magica is an early type of image projector employing painted pictures or photographs on sheets of glass, a lens and a bright light source. It was mostly developed in the 17th century and commonly used for entertainment purposes. It became a common medium for educational purposes around 1800 until it was succeeded by slide projectors in the 1950s. == Technology == The magic lantern used a concave mirror in back of a light source to direct as much of the light as possible through a small rectangular sheet of glass—a "lantern slide"—on which was the image to be projected...

Damkerng T.

It must've been magical in those days!

V.V.

@user62015 how? He says "a part". It is singular.

Cardinal

It looks like heaters that use wood inside!

user62015

@V.V. What should I do?

Damkerng T.

I wonder if PEU has an entry for the majority ...

V.V.

20:14

They use it as a group noun. It's difficult at the beginning.

Damkerng T.

> 333.5
The majority of (= 'most' or 'most of') is mostly used with plural nouns and verbs.
"The majority of criminals are non-violent."

Haha! I knew it! Swan is very wise!

"is mostly used" -- LOL

By his saying "mostly", you can't say he's wrong!

V.V.

@DamkerngT. Did you meet have to +perfect infinitive to express certainty like must+perfect infinitive?

Damkerng T.

@V.V. Hmm... it sounds strange, but I may think differently when I see or hear the sentence.

Cardinal

@DamkerngT. What does that mean? who is "he"?

Damkerng T.

You have to have done this -- Strange.

@Cardinal Michael Swan (the author of PEU).

Cardinal

20:19

nods

Damkerng T.

It's hard to rule it out, though. Personally, I guess it's more common in legislation.

Cardinal

Must have done is a statement drawing a conclusion, not certainty IMHO

V.V.

Btw, Swan has it with a simple infinitive, see have to

Cardinal

OK, Good Nigh all o/

Damkerng T.

Night!

V.V.

20:28

Good night

Damkerng T.

@V.V. nods -- Maybe You have to be kidding is BrE.

I think I've never heard (or if I have, I can't remember it) You have to be kidding in AmE.

It's always You('ve) gotta be kidding.

Lawrence

21:19

@StoneyB :)

@Cardinal It's a good rule of thumb. What doesn't work are "either ... nor" and "neither ... or". The first is because either is a positive polarity term, while nor is a negative polarity term. The second is more because neither ... nor is the accepted idiom / pattern.

Note that nor can be used on its own, sometimes. E.g. He wasn't at home, nor was he at the office.

Lawrence

21:41

@user62015 I don't think any of the options sound right. Grammatical number rules out C and D, but I think the problem lies with the word they in the answers. I suspect the first part is some kind of ellipsed form of "There were few people present", for which the tag would be "weren't there". As it stands, "Few people were present, weren't there?" sounds better to me.

Anonymous

You have to be kidding sounds fine to me. Doesn't sound weird in AmE, IMO.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I see the review that caused your flag to be disputed. It'll take me a little while to figure out if that user needs a review ban, or if he just made a one-off mistake.

Anonymous

Disputed happens when at least one reviewer chooses an option that disagrees with the flag. In this case, a regular user picked "no action needed".

Anonymous

Disputed flags don't count as declined.

Anonymous

It just tells the moderators that not all the reviewers agreed about what to do. It worked out okay in this case because J.R. deleted it anyway :-)

Lawrence

22:09

@user62015 It's upon or at. Use "upon" if there were several choices (e.g. picnic, barbecue, formal dining), and the one chosen was "picnic". Use "at" if you're specifying where the decision was made (at a picnic, at a beach, at the bus stop). "To" requires a verb (it would be acceptable to say you decided to picnic instead of going for a run). The last sounds like the outcome of formal proceedings: "The votes were 5 FOR and 3 AGAINST, so the motion carried. We decided FOR a picnic."

@DamkerngT. I suspect your ExE is really BrE, formal register, typical usage only, corner cases excluded.

... and with heuristics treated as rules.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence I suppose that some ExE dialects are descendants of BrE. :D

But yes, I think you get more or less the right idea. :D

Lawrence

:)

@user62015 It's idiomatically B (were), even if you started with two apples.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I see! Thanks for the background info!

@snailplane Noted!

Lawrence

22:50

@Cardinal Both "a majority" and "the majority" have singular agreement. I've posted an answer to the question about the difference - many individuals vs massed collectives.

@user62015 @Cardinal Hmm, that usage in the article - "A majority of people don't want war." - sounds grammatical, and singular agreement doesn't.

I suppose this is where 'learning by osmosis' has an advantage :) . It can make it harder to articulate the underlying patterns, though, since the patterns are implicit. In this case, proximity agreement might be a factor, but the plural agreement seems legitimate.

Anonymous

There are two ways to deal with it, I think.

Anonymous

You can say that a majority of is a quantifier, and people is the real head of the noun phrase. Pretend a majority of is used like the word most.

Anonymous

The other way is to admit majority as head of the noun phrase, but say that it takes on the number of the noun in its PP dependent. Huddleston & Pullum call it a number-transparent quantificational noun and do call it the head of the noun phrase. This has some theoretical advantages, particularly in that heads are generally not omissible but the PP complement is.

Anonymous

Either way, we have a conflict. Which is the head, majority or people? Agreement points toward the latter, but omissibility points toward the former.

Anonymous

Both solutions are compromises.

Anonymous

23:04

For learners, I think the easiest way to understand it is to say a majority of is a quantifier, acting like most.

Anonymous

The "number-transparent quantificational noun" thing might have theoretical advantages, but I feel like it's a little harder on the brain.

Anonymous

@Lawrence You have to learn by example regardless of whether or not the relevant explanations are taught to you explicitly.

Damkerng T.

Starting a sentence with A majority of (rather than The majority of) is a good way to raise my skepticism if I think what they really mean is The majority of. :-)

Anonymous

No one ever learned a language solely by studying the theory behind it.

Lawrence

@snailplane What's a "PP"?

Anonymous

23:07

Preposition phrase.

Damkerng T.

It's a bit like when I read People say ... or They say ..., it usually alerts me and makes me think, what people?

Anonymous

Sorry, habit.

Lawrence

@snailplane I think you're right - it boils down to whether majority or people is the head. The writer picks according to their own intent. The reader infers the intent based on the context. The student is in trouble when the part conveying the intent is blanked off.

Damkerng T.

Some music: The Fooo Conspiracy - Summer Love -- nice melody and rhythm. (But it's more like "Rainy nights, Thunder storm" over here. :-)

Lawrence

23:22

@snailplane I'm biased, of course, but I think it's best to start with a hazy idea of how the language is used based on general reading, and then build on it formally. With language, the forms are so flexible that it's useful to have at least an inkling of whether a suggested rule 'works' on a particular sentence. The picnic example is a case in point, as is the majority example.

Perhaps 'the rules' should be treated as a preliminary guide to the literature, rather than something set in stone.

@snailplane I'm still trying to parse this. Are you saying that in this approach, the grammatical number (of "people") is taken as the PP dependent of "majority"?

I thought that only words or phrases (en bloc) could be taken as dependents.

Oh, it's "the number of (the noun in its PP dependent)", not "(the number of the noun) in its PP depenndent". My mistake.

Heads all over the place. Like whac(k)-a-mole. :)

Lawrence

23:38

@snailplane I find this type/class of analysis too descriptive (no offense intended, I hasten to add). They just say what happens, but don't really explain the phenomenon. It's like looking at the light mill, and 'explaining' it as "it turns to the light side" - "Yes, but why?".

Anonymous

23:49

@Lawrence Yes, I agree :-) For learning a language, grammar is secondary.

Anonymous

@Lawrence Well, the string is on its way to being grammaticalized as a quantifier. Grammaticalization is a gradual, fuzzy process, and in this case the string is sort of in between. It retains characteristics associated with both where it's coming from (majority as head noun) and where it's going (a majority of as quantifier).

Anonymous

It's still possible to use it in a non-grammaticalized fashion (in which majority is not number-transparent and takes the agreement you'd expect it to), although that's not very common.

Anonymous

Anyway, figuring out what we've got is the first step. Figuring out why we've got it is something you can only do once you understand the what :-)

Anonymous

It's strange, but in studying language, people often start with explanations, and those explanations often lead us to conclusions that don't match the facts.

2

Anonymous

So descriptive linguists try to start by figuring out what the facts are.

Anonymous

23:55

Sometimes why questions can be difficult or impossible to answer.

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