Language Overflow

Cardinal

04:34

As a Persian guy, I want to declare two points. First, I don't understand this sentence: "In Parsi (Persian) plural is mostly used when talking of something tangible or out of respect." Second, "Classam avaz kardam" is an example of bad Persian. The correct one is "Classam ra avaz kardam", which means "I changed my class". — Cardinal 6 mins ago

I can't understand the connection between Persian and the OP's question. @DEAD would you have a look?

CowperKettle

Yekaterinburg in spring

Cardinal

04:57

That is Beautiful.

Cardinal

05:29

What is wrong with these people?

Ra should not be used as it is not for certain what is the class that was changed. It's ok though. I feel more people in this part of Stack seem to run with emotions and insults. If I am clearly wrong in others eyes, one would think fair explanations would be used. No worries, cheers. :) — norcal johnny 29 mins ago

CowperKettle

Morning, Cardinal!

Word of the morning: nomogram

Cardinal

@CowperKettle Good morining

V.V.

Morning.

CowperKettle

05:45

Dobroe utro!

V.V.

I usually write slowly and when I am asked if I am a robot, I want to answer that it's a philosophical question.

Sometimes I am.

What does Dam usually answer?

CowperKettle

Sorry, I'm lurking.. translating some stuff

0

A: What can the abbreviation "B.C." mean on a weld joint diagram?

I'm not aware of BC as standard English nomenclature for welding, but I have a guess for what they mean. The fact that there is a period after the B but not the C makes me wonder if something was cut off or whited out in the original. I think they mean backgouge (BG) which would be a common proc...

A translator asked a question, I re-asked it on SE.

Welding is a topic I know very little about

Clearly not "Before Christ"

Damkerng T.

06:00

@V.V. He usually answers random things randomly. :-)

@CowperKettle Nice!

@snailplane nods

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. Will repeat in 6 months' time

The photo shows a margin of unfrozen ice on the Yekaterinburg city pond.

The pond was created to power the wheels of an iron plant.

In 1723

The river is a mere stream without the pond.

Damkerng T.

:)

CowperKettle

One or two guys per year happen to fall under the ice in the spring, when it is dangerously thin.

Cardinal

:)

CowperKettle

In the winter though it is thick and it's a good shortcut to cycle across the pond to the other side.

Jim Reynolds

06:06

@snailplane Your evaluation pertains to the OP's subject excerpt as well?

Neither of these — the government’s curfew and restrictions, or the protest programmes of the secessionist leadership — is new to Kashmir. We have seen them in 2008 and then again in 2010.

And it's grammatical for some in nonstandard varieties because the concept of a present continuing timeline is likely operative?

Damkerng T.

06:22

@JimReynolds I think she meant only the she don't one.

@CowperKettle Oh, no! Beautiful things are dangerous.

Jim Reynolds

I keep noticing a phenomenon where it seems to me that several factors may combine cumulatively to cause us to make one grammatical choice over another. We often operate on oversimplified rules (repeated or extended events or states are referenced with the present perfect). But I saw her last week, again yesterday, and yet again today.

But in situations where we might likely confront a choice, say between the present perfect and the past simple, even a hint or possibility that extendedness or repetition is operative might push us toward choosing the present perfect where we otherwise might not.

Similarly, ideas like definite article "because there's only one of them" isn't an accurate rule, but sometimes such a concept may influence us to choose the over a/an.

Damkerng T.

I take it that you prefer saying I've seen her last week, again yesterday, and yet again today to saying I saw her last week, again yesterday, and yet again today, perhaps?

Jim Reynolds

No. But thinking about why the former might be "grammatical in some varieties of nonstandard English" or "used by some speakers of Standard English but not others."

Damkerng T.

nods -- I see.

Jim Reynolds

I'm wondering if there's a technical term for describing such a phenomenon.

Maybe it's simply one of the big things that better grammars account for by identifying more accurate rules.

Why CGEL discards some terms, for example.

CowperKettle

06:39

> This volume of buffer is calculated to be used for 20 samples. (the sentence comes out clumsy)

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Punctuation: shows the difference between paying your gardener to plant fruit-bearing trees and paying your gardener to plant fruit, bearing trees.

Jim Reynolds

And replaces them with terms that better account for observations.

Damkerng T.

IIRC, some books suggest that the present perfect doesn't work well with definite times. (But this begs a question: what's "definite time"?)

Lawrence

@JimReynolds :)

Timing, hmm?

Jim Reynolds

@Lawrence I love reading, jogging, tennis, cooking @Man_From_India, and gardening.

Damkerng T.

06:40

@Lawrence Aww... that's not quite fair. :)

Let's limit our cases to commas. :)

@CowperKettle Good enough for me. :D

Jim Reynolds

Grammars sometimes prescribe using the simple past with precise times etc. Sorta-sometimes. And what's precise?

@DamkerngT. I limit mine to upper and lower

Damkerng T.

An example of a definite time (that makes the example sentence ungrammatical): Have you made this cake yourself?

Jim Reynolds

My case depends on my mood, in a sense.

Damkerng T.

I followed the link Cardinal posted half an hour ago. I'm not sure why the answer brings Indo-Iranian into the discussion. It sounds as if they try to imply that Indo-Iranian is the root of all languages, or at least of English. But I might misunderstand him.
http://ell.stackexchange.com/a/102753/3281

Lawrence

@JimReynolds Oh, that's just tempting ... but I'll refrain. :)

Damkerng T.

06:48

@Lawrence I guess it was the one before last in the list. :P

Please forgive me but that seems to be crossing theories, in which a lot is what a person chooses to believe. I speak 7 languages and spend a lot of time studying the connections between. From my understanding, the original languages would be Semitic, Aryan and Hamite and as for writing cuneiform and sanskrit. This seems to be much more applaudable in my view and shows a more clear connection as to why there are so many similarities in languages. — norcal johnny 3 hours ago

It's not very often for me to see sanskit spelled in lowercase.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Hey, you spoke disparagingly of punctuation in general. All for one and one, for all. :P

@DamkerngT. Umm, yeah, let's go with that.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence :D

Lawrence

@CowperKettle Oh look, nice picture!

@DamkerngT. As opposed to "Oh look nice, picture!"

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence That would be strange, because your comma wouldn't reflect your pause, I think.

Lawrence

@CowperKettle Apologies for using your picture out of context. It is a nice picture, by the way. :)

Damkerng T.

06:53

The most confusing thing about commas is people think they're used for "pauses".

@Lawrence It. Is. Nice. Indeed.

:D

(That's @DEAD speak. :P)

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. The second version says something different from the first. The first tells you that it's a nice picture. The second might tell you (informally) to present yourself nicely (smile, tuck your shirt in, etc) because your picture is about to be taken.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence I'm not familiar with the second use, then, apparently.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. There's a more-than-casual correspondence between commas in written text and pauses in their spoken versions.

@DamkerngT. Are you familiar with the phrase "look nice"? Kind of like "looking your best".

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Yes, but "Oh, look nice" is too strange for me, I think.

(Why "Oh"?)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, I meant the "she don't" one. Sorry, I typed that message on my phone so I was unable to link it as a reply to the message I intended!

Anonymous

06:59

My apologies for the confusion.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Apologies are all mine. I mixed two topics together. I think I shouldn't've done that. It wasn't a very good example to support the main topic.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. It might be said in exasperation. E.g. "Come here, Jumbo. That's a nice mule. No, not the cake! It'll get all over your face. Oh, look nice for a change, please! We're about to take a picture."

Anonymous

As long as it can be construed in context as a volitional action I think it's okay.

Anonymous

@Lawrence Yes, but it's not as consistent as it once was.

Anonymous

There's still a correspondence because the comma began its life as a way to indicate pauses.

Anonymous

07:05

But people don't always use commas where they pause or pause where they use commas.

Anonymous

It's changed over time. As usual, I'll recommend Parkes' Pause and Effect: Punctuation in the West for the full story, although it's hard to find a copy.

Lawrence

@JimReynolds In that context of non-standard English, possibly as a reply to "Have you seen her?"

Damkerng T.

The original topic was We have seen them in 2008 and then again in 2010. (ell.stackexchange.com/questions/102715/…) I'm somehow okay with it if there's a comma (or a pause) before the first in.

Lawrence

@snailplane Yes, I agree :) . That's the reason I didn't state it more strongly.

@DamkerngT. Good to see the appreciation for the humble punctuation mark. :P

@DamkerngT. Ok, seriously now. That's a good observation. I wasn't particularly happy with the original version. But when you add the comma before in, it's fine.

Anonymous

Yeah, it does seem like a good observation.

Lawrence

07:12

@CowperKettle What was the original intent?

@DamkerngT. This deserves a star. --->

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

Lawrence

:)

Cardinal

07:33

@DamkerngT. Why is that wrong?

@DamkerngT. I cannot understand them

Damkerng T.

@Cardinal It's definite because it's a definite cake in Have you made this cake yourself? However, Have you made a cake yourself? is fine.

@Cardinal I can't say I really understand him either.

(Come to think of it, baked would sound better than made.)

Cardinal

@DamkerngT. What if someone wants to imply that they are surprised. "Have you made this cake yourself, I didn't think you can cook cakes" ?

Damkerng T.

@Cardinal It will come off weird. I'd say it's ungrammatical.

Cardinal

@DamkerngT. I see. I think I get what you mean by "the definite cake" and its relation to present prefect.

Damkerng T.

One possibility that allows it is, I think, to understand this cake as this kind of cake.

Cardinal

07:44

nods

Damkerng T.

@Cardinal Right! That was my point!

Cardinal

07:57

0

Q: Does 'hangdog and shy' in the sentence act as adverbial or subject complement?

When I read the novel Breakfast at Tiffany's, I came across the sentence as below. Then he was standing in front of her, hangdog and shy. I'm not sure whether the phrase 'hangdog and shy' is adverbial or subject complement. To me, it seems that the phrase modify subject "He" and also it's a...

@DamkerngT. It's your favorite question

:-)

Damkerng T.

:D

I haven't read the novel, though.

Jim Reynolds

08:10

@Avi I struggle with teaching, as perhaps nearly all teachers do, "good" teachers or "bad" ones. I'm drawn to the theories and methods most popularly associated with Stephen Krashen. The labels include the natural approach, comprehensible-input (CI) based approaches, and TPRS - Teaching Proficiency through Reading and Storytelling.

2

Most ELLs can improve communication skills when they receive input that is emotionally meaningful and easy to understand. Most learning happens unconsciously and relatively effortlessly, under conditions that are stimulating but not anxiety-provoking.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Like trying to watch a late show every possible night. :D -- (Sorry about the interruption. :)

Jim Reynolds

You mean that's a good way or a bad way?

Damkerng T.

I do it, so I suppose I'd think it's good. :D

It was David Letterman's then, now it's Stephen Colbert's.

Jim Reynolds

Right! I thought maybe you meant it was hard to adhere to the goal of every possible goal, so anxiety-provoking.

He's a great entertainer and teacher.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Ah, I see! I added possible as an afterthought, actually, when I realized that I can't do it every night.

@JimReynolds Yes!

The humor is a bit more sarcastic than Letterman, though. Funny and nice, still. :D

Jim Reynolds

08:21

People who love learning about English have a great advantage, right?

When they do so through using it.

Damkerng T.

About? I'm not sure what you mean.

I mean, I love learning about American. :P

(Let's make it official: American is a language, too. :P)

Jim Reynolds

I think there is a great waste by teaching people about English when it's not interesting to many, most.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see what you mean!

I think basic grammar is helpful in early stages, though, but it shouldn't be too deep. Just enough to understand sentences they (learners) have to deal with should suffice.

Serious grammar is also helpful in later stages, too, to polish their English, especially in writing.

But if the goal is to speak the language, maybe one can do that without learning grammar.

Jim Reynolds

I've asked working adult students to estimate the number of hours they've spent in English classes and doing homework. I have gotten typical ranges of 35,000 to 70,000 hours from people who still have trouble communicating in regularly encountered English situations.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds That's too high, I think! Maybe they over-estimated the number.

Jim Reynolds

08:27

@DamkerngT. By definition, we can't use a language without learning grammar.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Ah, I see. Let's rephrase it to "learning grammar explicitly".

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. It hasn't been scientific at all, but I think we can say there's a great deal of inefficiency happening.

Damkerng T.

nods -- To that, I strongly agree.

(Hmm... with is probably better than to.)

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. I think it mostly depends on interest.

Damkerng T.

Do you kind of embed some grammar tips (if not rules) in your classes while teaching English communication skills?

Jim Reynolds

08:31

@DamkerngT. Perhaps technically, but I didn't notice it at all, so I think it's typical to use either.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Thanks!

Ugh! Lots of unanswered questions on the main!

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. Only as it seems to respond to learner interest or demand. Everything occurs in a complex, multi-leveled, and inter-related ecosystem.

Damkerng T.

nods

Jim Reynolds

I'm a semi-expert.

Damkerng T.

That makes you semi-nonexpert. :P

Jim Reynolds

08:37

I'm so glad you pointed that out

Damkerng T.

Sorry! I was just kidding. :D

Jim Reynolds

:D

I am not equipped to debate such issues with snailplane, for example.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... to me, an expert of sort sounds better than a semi-expert, but I can't tell if native speakers will think the same.

Jim Reynolds

Maybe I only know unconsciously!

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I suppose that's more than enough 99% of the time.

Jim Reynolds

08:39

Once I shine my feeble light on it, it moves

Like Schroeder's hampster

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Usually called American English :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Hee

Cardinal

The phrase "hangdog and shy" is more precisely called a 'predicative adjunct'. 'Predicative' because it relates to a predicand - in this case the subject "he" - and 'adjunct' because it is an optional element outside clause structure. Notice how the phrase is set apart from the rest of the sentence with a comma. In speech, it would be marked off with a slight pause. Compare the predicative complement "He seemed hangdog and shy". — BillJ 12 mins ago

Jim Reynolds

Simply having a patient temperament and enjoying talking with people gets me a long way in terms of apparently being a better-than-average teacher in my environment.

And my compelling eyes of blue.

Cardinal

I never understood the jargon "adjunct". When we already have adverbial phrases, adverbial clauses and adverbial participles.

Damkerng T.

08:45

@Cardinal I guess it may make more sense if you think of it as different dimensions.

Jim Reynolds

@Cardinal I completely understand it. It means a thing.

Damkerng T.

(I tried to link the idea to your background in engineering.)

@FumbleFingers: so it means that not only human vanities (bad things, if I am correct) but also a kind of business model were burnt in the fire of 1980s wall street? please correct me if I am wrong. — comi 14 hours ago

@comi I think you understand the sentence correctly. (The comments by FumbleFingers are very useful, too.) — Damkerng T. 1 min ago

Cardinal

I mean I can't understand why we need to create another term, adjunct

Damkerng T.

It's hard to write an answer when the OP got everything basically right.

Jim Reynolds

If it's not a junct, it's almost surely an adjunct

Damkerng T.

08:47

Ah, gotta take a break. Be back later! o/

Cardinal

o/

@DamkerngT. I see, perhaps, from the geographical point of view :-) -- position of the adverb

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Conjunct, disjunct, adjunct, and subjunct. Why so much junct lying around?

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. We all know you are climbing back into your original packaging and hooking yourself up to a high-voltage power supply, despite your manufacturer's warnings.

@snailplane We're all some kind of junctie!

Damkerng T.

@Cardinal :D

@JimReynolds I just want to get some sun. :P

Jim Reynolds

Lol

According to @Avi's profile, he(?)'s a biolingual. The opposite of @DamkerngT.!

Who is a mechnolingual.

Jim Reynolds

09:12

@Avi For some reason, I had an image of you as male, maybe a young adult, and Iranian. But I don't know why. Now, you indicate that Chinese, or a Chinese is a, or your, native language? Do you care to remind or tell me or us something about your language background, ethnicity, etc?

Avicenna

09:28

@JimReynolds Thank you a lot for the answer. Now my turn to answer. Avi is she, maybe a malish she but a she not he. She is an Azery Iranian. So her first language is Azery and her second is Persian. I love my mother tongue a lot more. If I don't hear Persian for a long time I won't care much, but if I don't hear Azery for lets say a day or less I really miss it.

Azery is similar to Azerbaijani, the language of Azerbiajan inasmuch as we, Azeries and Azerbaijanies can understand each other about 85% or even 90% while each use our own mother tongue.

I started to learn English conversation when I was 18. Too late if we believe in critical period.

But I was self motivated and learnt it.

I like the method you use. And I should do some reasearch and learn more about it. In the institutes I worked and this one I am working it's almost not possible to use that method, but maybe I use it in my own institute when I finish considering having one open it.

Oh about young adault, I am in my 30s if it's cosidered young adault so you're right. But remember time is frozen after I was 24 so I am always 24 :D

Just kidding.

Gotta go. 30 u!

Damkerng T.

10:18

2

Q: “Some” vs “some of” with adjective

Suppose an application user selects certain objects and then attempts to perform an operation involving them. Which of the following responses is correct, and why? Operation is not supported by some selected objects Operation is not supported by some of selected objects It would m...

prepositions adjectives

^The unanswered question nearest to the bottom on the main page.

Maybe answerers aren't comfortable with some minor points in the sentence and the "why" part.

(Neither am I)

1

Q: "Targeted" vs "Pointed"

I've found this phrase: The police __________ 2100 alleged up loaders using peer-to-peer. I've got four possible answers: targeted aimed directed pointed I've already set aside "aimed" and "directed", but I can't see the difference between the remaining ones.

word-choice

(^This is the next to last one.)

Wow, do people still write uploaders or up-loaders as up loaders?

Anonymous

10:40

I think the accepted spelling is uploaders.

Cardinal

@snailplane nods

Damkerng T.

BTW, it's high time we wrote answers! There are lots of them right now!

(I just wrote one.)

Anonymous

It's time for me to sleep, but I'll make it a point to write an answer soon :-)

Damkerng T.

Aww... sleep well!

Cardinal

O read your answer @DamkerngT.

In that context "increased" means something like "additional"

Damkerng T.

10:54

In any contexts, even!

Cardinal

(^_^)

Damkerng T.

:D

Færd

11:15

As per ODO, 'agony' can denote physical or mental suffering, while 'agonize' is all about mental anguish. What do you think?

Yes, 'agonize' is used more (or almost always) about mental pains, but that it cannot be used for physical pains is quite another thing.

I discussed the matter with Lawrence in the ELU chat room, and he suggested that there's a "usage hole" regarding the use of 'agonize' for physical suffering. And he observed that the hole is patched up in the adjective 'agonizing'.

Maybe true, but strange all the same.

Anonymous

I'm still awake! :-) I think It's true that you can't use the verb agonize that way. But the derived adjective agonizing and adverb agonizingly do have their own usage and meaning. Interesting discussion! :-)

Anonymous

Oh no, I've hit peak emoticon! :-)

Færd

You haven't slept yet?! Or you woke up early?

Anonymous

No, I'm up very late. Because reasons.

Færd

Oh.

I hope all of us can have a healthy sleep schedule someday! (Not to suggest that yours is currently not healthy.)

Anonymous

11:28

My sleep cycle can be a bit wacky sometimes depending on whose schedules I'm trying to overlap :-)

Anonymous

But usually I try to get up early each morning.

Færd

That's good, if you get to sleep early the night before.

So for you, agonize and torture are not always exchangeable, right?

Anonymous

Can you come up with an example where they are interchangeable?

Færd

?

> Cancer agonized/tortured him for the rest of his life.

Anonymous

I'd say never rather than not always… but maybe I'm just not imagining the right example.

Anonymous

11:32

Tortured but not agonized, I'd say.

Færd

Hmm.

> Lung cancer and the agonizing pain didn't leave him alone for the rest of his life.

?

What a grim discussion.

'Sleep cycle' vs 'sleep schedule' - 'exchangeable' vs 'interchangeable' - ...

You chat and learn.

Stack Exchange

0

Q: Can a person with less than 2000 reputation approve a edit suggestion?

I gave a edit suggestion and when it was approved I saw that the one person has approved it and that is the question owner with 16 reputation. How? http://ell.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/45556

discussion bug

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. I know you are quite fluent and proficient, but I believe I can still assist you with my knowledge as a native speaker. What you want to do here is post a comment or answer saying simply Up yours!

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds o_O

A robot is rethinking if it really wants to be fluent!

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. I always try to help

Damkerng T.

11:47

LOL

Jim Reynolds

... myself to be entertained at others' expense

Cardinal

I wonder if there shouldn't be a comma after Robo Advisors:

0

Q: What does "right on the line" mean in this context?

Others are right on the line. Robo advisors Betterment LLC and Wealthfront Inc. are each sitting at $700 million, and online money transfer startup WorldRemit has a valuation of $500 million. source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-06/why-fintech-startups-might-not-want-to-become...

meaning-in-context

Damkerng T.

@StackExchange Is it because an OP can approve their own questions single-handedly?

@Cardinal I think they have a name for this kind of usage.

It may make sense if we think of "Robo advisors" as a title.

Like "Mr." John Smith.

Cardinal

we have three names in a list without any comma

x y and z

Damkerng T.

I counted two.

Cardinal

12:00

Awo- I thought "Robo advisors" and "Betterment LLC" refer two different corps

Damkerng T.

I read it as [ Robo advisors "Betterment LLC" and "Wealthfront Inc" ], i.e., "Robo advisor Betterment LLC" and "Robo advisor Wealthfront Inc".

Cardinal

nods

Another present perfect question:

0

Q: Is this sentence grammatically correct or not?

While reading an article I came across this: After the process has finished it is not possible to know where it was running. Is this sentence considered as grammatically correct one or not?

present-perfect

Færd

There's a strand of hair on my left eyebrow that grows way faster than the others.

Færd

12:38

> agonize: to cause to suffer agony : torture

Makes me unsure about the accuracy of the Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

CowperKettle

13:24

Hemingway App for concise writing

Damkerng T.

14:01

@CowperKettle We mentioned that app once in here.

Woo-hoo! My favorite bot won the Battlebots, first season!

(I like it that the builder/driver of the bot is a humble, calm, friendly-looking young guy.)

CowperKettle

박용현, korea

1 3 12

grammar meaning prepositions grammaticality infinitive punctuation sentence-meaning

The Korean teacher was suspended

Damkerng T.

Ahh

CowperKettle

I hope he changes his nick to Latin letters and comes to ask questions in a better way.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I remember that many of us tried to help him last year (how we should ask questions, and so on).

CowperKettle

Because I've no idea how to pronounce the Korean letters

Maybe he is overloaded with work

Damkerng T.

14:14

I can't remember the alphabet (sort of) now. I'll eed to go over my old notes, if I wanna read his name.

@CowperKettle nods

1

A: Is this an example of apposition?

The most miserable people, the unemployed, are not the idle people. Yes, the NP "The unemployed” is an appositive. But it is not of the modifying kind since it is separated from "the most miserable people" with commas. It is still an appositive, but more specifically a supplementary appositive, ...

This is technically correct (it follows CGEL, I think), but if wonder if an average reader on our site will really understand this by just reading the answer.

CowperKettle

The question went up in the queue because I've just added a quote from Tom O'Bedlam

I was memorizing it and it occurred to me that once stanza has a good example of apposition. (0:

Damkerng T.

14:30

@CowperKettle Yay!

Jim Reynolds

Word encounter today: twarguing. Twitter/tweet + arguing.

CowperKettle

Monument to Peter I, as depicted by Japanese sailors who spent some time in Russia after a shipwreck and returned in 1807

> 環海異聞

Bronze Horseman

The Bronze Horseman (Russian: Медный всадник, literally "copper horseman") is an equestrian statue of Peter the Great in Saint Petersburg, Russia. Commissioned by Catherine the Great, it was created by the French sculptor Étienne Maurice Falconet. The name comes from an 1833 poem of the same name by Aleksander Pushkin, which is widely considered one of the most significant works of Russian literature. The statue is now one of the symbols of Saint Petersburg. The statue's pedestal is the enormous Thunder Stone, the largest stone ever moved by humans. The stone originally weighed about 1500 tonnes...

And this is how it really looks. (0:

津太夫

津太夫（つだゆう、延享元年（1744年） - 文化11年7月29日（1814年9月12日））は江戸時代後期の水主（かこ）。 49歳の時に嵐にあって漂流し、儀兵衛、左平、太十郎ら3名と共に、図らずも日本人初の世界一周を果たした。 == 生涯 == 延享元年（1744年）ころ善五郎の子として仙台藩・浦戸諸島寒風沢島（現宮城県塩竈市）に生まれる。寛政5年（1793年）11月、仙台藩の用木、米などを積んだ16人乗りの若宮丸の水主として石巻から江戸へ向かう途中、塩屋崎（現福島県いわき市）沖で暴風に遭い漂流し、翌寛政6年（1794年）5月10日、アリューシャン列島東部のウナラスカ島に漂着した。その地でロシア人に助けられ、アトカ島、聖パヴェル島、アムチトカ島、オホーツク、ヤクーツクを経て、寛政8年（1796年）12月下旬にイルクーツクに至り、この地で大黒屋光太夫と共に漂流した新蔵に出会う。この後津太夫ら若宮丸の漂流民14名はイルクーツクで7年間暮らしたが、新蔵の説得により洗礼を受けた善六をはじめとする4名は日本語学校の教師となり、何不自由なく暮らしたのに対して、洗礼を受けなかった津太夫ら10名は役所から必要最低限の銅貨が支給されていたものの生活は苦しく、津太夫は漁網を縫う仕事をし、他の者も漁師や大工の手伝いやパンを売り歩いて糊口をしのいだ。このため漂流民たちの間で対立が激しくなり、...

They travelled around the globe!

> In the storm was drifting at the time of the 49-year-old, TadashiHyoe , Hidaritaira, FutoshiJuro together, et al. 3 people, accidentally became the first Japanese in the round-the-world played.

> In Petersburg are welcome in the mansion of the nobility, on May 16, under the Emperor Alexander into the world and audience in the interpretation of Shinzo, Tsu was hope the return of the 10 people Courtesan, TadashiHyoe, Hidaritaira, of 4 people FutoshiJuro return is allowed. Line even after this balloon and planetarium , has received a variety of entertainment from the Russian side, such as theater sightseeing.

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle Close enough. :)

CowperKettle

> Najeshida No. departed Peter Paul full disk on August 5, Kuril Islands after a while south along, from Honshu east Hachijojima , Satsuma to through to September 4, the offshore of Nagasaki to arrive. Tsu chanter has done around the world in the 61-year-old in the 12 years since its drifting.

I wonder what is "full disk"? - At noon?

@DamkerngT. Yes, thanks God there was no anime back then, or Peter would have had huge eyes.

Damkerng T.

:D

CowperKettle

14:44

> Japanese has achieved the world's first round, but the name recognition is not high.
The reason for this is that, one official drifting record "Kankai Ibun", which is the editor of the Gentaku Otsuki "(that of Tsu chanter et al returnees 4 people) their is to the vain and the experience to Russia ignorant lowest layer of the human like the word just does not. "

This is a bit cryptic.

Jim Reynolds

@Færd The definition looks ok to me. That's one of its definitions in its transitive sense. To cause great suffering (agony). I think we just very rarely see it used transitively compared to its much more common meanings as an a no-object verb, to experience suffering, especially mental suffering, especially uncomfortable or exhausting ambivalence in making a decision.

How his broken ankle agonized him!

@CowperKettle A bit? That's the quintessence of cryptic.

Lawrence

15:17

@Cardinal Other than cakes idiomatically being described as baked, that sentence is fine, and it supports the intent of implying surprise.

@DamkerngT. "An expert of sorts" sounds decidedly dodgy, like you're skeptical of their 'expert' status.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Maybe it depends on context and who the speaker refers to, themselves or someone else.

@Lawrence Hmm... really? "Have you ~~made~~ baked this cake yourself, I didn't think you can cook cakes" is fine?

Avicenna

@CowperKettle Beautiful! I am using it as a walpaper on my phone, if you don't mind.

Damkerng T.

If that somehow sounds fine, perhaps try This cake is so delicious! Have you baked it yourself? I didn't know when you learned bakery!

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Yes, in an informal register, and with slightly different punctuation: "Have you baked this cake yourself? I didn't think you can (could / knew how to) bake cakes."

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Have you baked it yourself (in this context) is fine?

Lawrence

15:30

... Actually, even the informal register may not be necessary.

@DamkerngT. As a question, yes.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Does that mean, only when it's a question?

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. In a non-formal register, it could qualify as an exclamation as well.

At any rate, it's idiomatic in speech to denote surprise.

Damkerng T.

"Have you baked it yourself?!" "Yes, I've baked it myself, a couple hours ago."

CowperKettle

@Avicenna I'm glad that you've chosen it as a wallpaper, Avi! Good evening!

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. That's surprise, followed by a proud statement of achievement.

Damkerng T.

15:35

@Lawrence Interesting. I can't help but wonder about your dialect now. (^_^) -- (Feel free not to reveal it, BTW. :-)

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. I favour BrE, but I'm familiar with several, including AmE to some extent, and AuE, as well as some Asian versions of English, though not InE in detail.

Damkerng T.

I take it that you're fine with This shirt is nice. Where have you bought it from? as well.

Lawrence

@Færd On M-W, it looks like they're defining agonize in terms of physical torture, but when you look more carefully, the example references mental torture. ODO makes the mental aspect explicit.

@DamkerngT. I'd prefer "Where did you buy it?"

Likewise, "Did you bake it yourself?"

Damkerng T.

But you're fine with Have you baked it yourself?, right?

Lawrence

... But I think "Have you..." somehow expresses the surprise a bit more.

Cardinal

15:45

> Emptiness is filling me.
> To the point of agony.

Metallica, Faded to Black

Damkerng T.

IMO, Have you made it yourself? sounds like an error.

Cardinal

However, I am not a big fan of this sort of music now.
That just reminds me of that song

@Lawrence I thing my feelings work better than my mind !

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. You seem surprised. First, here's an example from the web. Second, why are you surprised?

Cardinal

I thought, in surprising scenarios that will be correct. However, I have no Idea why I thought in that way!

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Your usage of English, in this specific case, I mean, doesn't seem to align with the usage I've observed well.

@Lawrence That example, What's your favorite cookie and have you baked it yourself?, can't be used to support your argument.

Cardinal

15:49

@DamkerngT. nods

Damkerng T.

There's no specific piece of cake in the conversation.

Jim Reynolds

@Lawrence Have you baked yourself?

Lawrence

I suppose it starts the same way as "Have you no sense of decency, sir!".

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Now, that's fine!

12 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

I take it that you're fine with This shirt is nice. Where have you bought it from? as well.

Cardinal

:-), I like escalating discussions

Damkerng T.

15:51

I used that example because I was quite sure that it doesn't sound very good to virtually all native speakers.

Cardinal

Have you bitten this apple? I think it was Jim's apple.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. I'm not sure which portion you find so amusing :) . I'd like to know, though. The quote was intended to show that "have you baked it yourself" isn't particularly strange.

@DamkerngT. What's the population of native speakers that you've sampled?

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence But it doesn't apply to our discussion!

@Lawrence I don't know. I can only "observe".

Lawrence

@Cardinal I'd prefer "Did you bite this apple?"

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. I'd be ok with it, but I wouldn't say it. I'd always use Did you bake in yourse's guyses recent examples. That's more Americany.

Cardinal

15:54

Have you bitten into these apples, they taste great!

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. I thought it did, which seems to suggest that we're speaking at cross purposes.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds But I doubt if a BrE speaker will accept Have you baked it (yourself)?. I think they don't.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. But then, how do you know that virtually all native speakers don't think it sounds good, as you claimed?

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence No. Really. If you're wondering why I insist, I'd suggest re-reading my messages in our conversation.

Jim Reynolds

@Cardinal Faerded to Black? That's Standard Metallicish.

Cardinal

15:56

@JimReynolds :D

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence When we observe (anything in language) passively, I think we can do only positive learning, i.e., we can be sure that this is what speakers use. But then again, when the pattern is strong enough, the alternatives will become more and more like invalid choices.

Cardinal

But @DamkerngT., I think I have heard people say "have you tried [this stuff], they are great, you should give a try"

Damkerng T.

So, unless I made some sort of questionnaire, I guess I can't be 100% sure.

@Cardinal But [this stuff] is not here.

Jim Reynolds

@Cardinal Do you mean that you enjoy causing discussions to escalate, or that you enjoy discussions that you observe escalating?

Damkerng T.

But observing differences across dialects is kinda fun. :D

Cardinal

15:59

@JimReynolds I just was quoting something from someone

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