Language Overflow

CowperKettle

00:50

Sawasdee khrap

CowperKettle

01:02

> Cheerful at morn, he wakes from short repose,
Breathes the keen air, and carols as he goes

Man_From_India

03:05

Good morning @DamkerngT.

I have checked your link to the wordreference forum. But I doubt that answerer's reasoning about here being a noun in case of I love here. Of course he supported his claim with a good reference.

But the problem is in the dictionary link it says here in from here is a noun. That's not true. I still think here is a preposition. And that expression from here is just an example of what traditional grammarians call double preposition, just like from behind etc. To me from here is a prepositional phrase where the head is preposition - from, and it takes another prepositionl phrase as complement. Here the prepositional phrase that acts as a complement is - here.

I love [NP] - this is a standard construction.

We can't use a PP in place of that [NP]. and hence we use the dummy it to fill the palce of a [NP].

Similarly we don't say - We love in the school [INCORRECT]

We use a dummy it there and say it - We love it in the school.

But why here is not a NP?

I can give some reason for that.

1. A noun or pronoun can inflect for singular/plural. here can't.

2. There are certain noun that can't inflect for singular/plural. But they can be post modified by a relative clause headed by a wh-words. It's not possible with here.

3. A noun/pronoun can't be modified by an adverb (though a NP can be). But a preposition (like here) can be modified by an adverb. Example - precisely here as in it's precisely here that the murder happened.

(as I very often make mistakes and don't want to pass on wrong info :-) , I am calling @snailplane as well) But I haven't found any examples that violate what I have written above.

oh I think my point #2 is not correct.

I want to get it removed, please.

Damkerng T.

04:48

@Man_From_India Imagine a love story, and after they confess that they love each other, a character said, "I want here." It's a bit unusual, I admit, but I think it'd be a different story if a character said, "I want it here." Right?

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. it might be possible in conversation, but I'm still not very sure.

Damkerng T.

A-ha! (I just searched and found this song. Not sure in which Twilight Saga it was used.)

The Black Ghosts - Full Moon

►

> 'Cause all I want is here and now but it's already been and gone.

I think that verse doesn't mean "I can find all I want here and now" but it's somewhat like "Everything that I want is 'here and now'".

Man_From_India

Yes this does mean all I want is in this particular location.

And that sentence goes along well with the explanation of preposition. One more example is : He is upstairs.

Oh sorry @DamkerngT. you mean [what I want] = [here and now].

Hmmm right.

Damkerng T.

05:07

@Man_From_India That line doesn't really work if we try to read it the other way around, I guess.

Man_From_India

I think it's in the context that will clear the meaning.

Damkerng T.

It's lyrics, in any case. :D

Man_From_India

Ummm still.

Have you watched the movie Jonah Hex?

Damkerng T.

I can't say that I've watched it but I can't say that I haven't seen it either. :-)

Man_From_India

:-/

Damkerng T.

05:10

I was half-asleep all the way through. :D

Man_From_India

I thought you meant you played a role in the movie? :D

Damkerng T.

LOL

Man_From_India

It is now on tv.

I started to watch it from the middle, can't understand what's going on :-) just some gun shots n fighting.

Damkerng T.

I remember he was a real badass.

Man_From_India

I first thought he's a demon.

Damkerng T.

05:13

Probably. I guess he had already been dead. Not sure.

Man_From_India

:O

I like this type of old setup

Damkerng T.

> According to “the unspoken rules of being a badass,” one realizes one’s badassery not through looking a certain way, but through acting a certain way. (Rule 1: “A badass does not talk about being a badass.” Rule 2: “A badass does not try to be a badass or look tough.” Rule 3: “A badass stays true to themselves, always.” Rule 4: “A badass does not give up.” Rule 5: “A badass is not a jerk.”)

> theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/11/…

Hehe!

Man_From_India

:D

Damkerng T.

05:28

> "Here is a place of rest; let the weary rest here. This is a place of quiet rest."

Arguably, it's possible (and probably normal in modern grammar) to read "Here is a place of rest" as "A place of rest is here".

But I wonder if that really reflects what most people really think.

For me, it's ambiguous, like Here can be thought of as a noun or a place, or the location of the place itself.

("A place vs. a location of a place" is a bit like "an object vs. a reference/pointer to an object", in my mind.)

Man_From_India

06:30

@DamkerngT. hehe i feel like I'm reading an article about C language. Pointer and all :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe! Old habits die hard. C was among the first programming languages I learned, so it's my natural mode. :-)

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. same here.

Oh i did not mean C is my natural mode :D

But i meant i learned C as my first programming language.

Damkerng T.

Cool! -- BTW, I'm just glad that I don't naturally think in an assembly language.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. it's good too. And very interesting, but I haven't got much chance to work with assembly codes.

Damkerng T.

Move the 4-byte data at 0x00abc00a to register R1. Shift left. Jump if the carry bit is set to 0x00abc01c.

:P

Some minutes later: core dumped. :-)

Man_From_India

06:40

:-/

Damkerng T.

Word of the Day: effluent

Note: effluent is not fluent. You'd want to be fluent, but you wouldn't want to be effluent! :P

Cardinal

07:33

I want to be affluent :D

Hi to all

Damkerng T.

07:45

@Cardinal I guess everyone does. :D

Cardinal

08:06

@DamkerngT. I guess you didn't try VHDL :D

Damkerng T.

@Cardinal I'm glad I don't have to. :D

Cardinal

However, I nearly forgot VHDL, Visual Basic, C, and Assembly. It is almost 5 years that I am totally engaged with MATLAB. Of course, I was not a expert in those languages, but I forgot them, even the most basic rules.

Damkerng T.

I have to admit that I like the idea, but I don't like its cost.

Cardinal

nods

Which Idea?

Damkerng T.

MATLAB (as in matrix programming). Octave is a good alternative, but it's still not as good.

Cardinal

08:15

yes, Octave made a great progress

Recent versions come with GUI

Damkerng T.

Yes! I love it!

Its plotting function is a bit clunky, though.

Cardinal

Matlab is very powerful for simulation

Damkerng T.

I mean, its function is okay, but trying to include special characters in a chart is quite a pain.

@Cardinal Yes.

Cardinal

That is why I am heavily depend on it

Damkerng T.

I don't know if Orcad is still popular.

Cardinal

08:17

Orcad is popular among electronics engineers

especially for producing schemateics and boards (multi layer boards -- I do not know the jargon)

Damkerng T.

nods -- IIRC, it had a simulation feature as well, but I didn't use it that much.

Cardinal

Yes, I see what your point, there is also Proteus software
But, Matlab is great for mathematical modeling and simulation

Araucaria

09:27

@Man_From_India Yes, there's more too.

(3) We can use the specialised adverbs right and straight to modify prepositions and preposition phrases, but not nouns (we can use the adjectives straight and right with nouns [not pronouns], but they have a completely different meaning)

(a) I came straight here.

(b) I'm right here.

(c) *He is right himself.

(4) When we use preposition phrases to indicate a goal with verbs such as come, we usually don't need to add a preposition like to. We do need to use one when the goal is a noun or noun phrase:

(a) Come here. [preposition phrase no to]

(b) *Come to here. [preposition phrase, with ilicit 'to']

(c) * Come me. [Illicit noun phrase without to]

(d) Come to me. Correct with to]

(5) We can freely use any noun phrase, including a pronoun] as a subject. But preposition phrases only make good subjects in a small subset of sentences:

(a) This is hot.

(b) I am hot.

(c) *Here is hot.

(d) This place is hot.

(6)We can use prepositions to postmodify nouns. It is not easy to do this with other nouns or pronouns, unless they are being used in appositions:

(a) This man here

(b) The people here

(c) *This man London

(d) *The people London

(e) This man, Bob

Example (e) is ok because Bob is being used to indicate the same thing as this man. But if London is meant to indicate the location of the man or the people, then (c) and (d) are ungrammatical. In contrast (a), which uses a preposition phrase here to postmodify the noun is perfectly fine.

Damkerng T.

10:07

This sentence may give you a headache. @Araucaria

> 'Fold here to there, one place to another place, herethere.'

:P

(It's from By the Light of the Moon by Dean Koontz. One character has an ability to fold space and time.)

> 'Herethere,' Shep repeated. 'Here is there, there is here, and everywhere is the same place if you know how to fold.' 'Fold? Fold what?' 'Fold here to there, one place to another place, herethere.'

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. In that sentence here to there is a preposition phrase functioning as a complement of fold. The unusual thing about it is that we would expect four prepositions there usually, not three: "Fold from here to there ...

@DamkerngT. It's an interesting sentence. What makes it interesting is the way that the speaker is playing with the words :)

Damkerng T.

Well, they have abilities. :D

Araucaria

:D

@DamkerngT. Consider: "Right here is right there, right there is right here, and everywhere is the same place if you know how to fold.' 'Fold? Fold what?' 'Fold right here to right there, one place to another place, right herethere."

:D

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I guess that's even more interesting!

Araucaria

It does make here and there look very prepositiony :)

Damkerng T.

10:19

How can we explain Here is there or Right here is right there, then? I think it's easier to think of one part of the sentence as a noun.

Admittedly, we can say something like Good is good. Bad is bad.

Araucaria

We can use preposition phrases as complements of specifying BE. I think that's what's going on there. I think that it's the specifying nature of BE there that makes them feel psychologically nouny.

Damkerng T.

nods

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Maybe consider: "Before the party is after the party, after the party is before the party. Every time it the same time if you know how to fold time. Fold one time to another time. Fold before the party to after the party, beforeafter the party"

Damkerng T.

Now they look less like nouns.

@Araucaria I think you nailed it. Thanks!

Araucaria

Or maybe without the noun phrases tucked inside the preposition phrases: "Before is after, after is before. Every time it the same time if you know how to fold time. Fold one time to another time. Fold before to after, beforeafter"

@DamkerngT. I hope I've got that right!

Damkerng T.

10:28

Looks good to me. :-)

Araucaria

Thanks

Damkerng T.

I can't tell if average people would think of them as prepositions, though. Maybe they don't have to think anything. I mean, I don't have to think much when reading something in my first language.

(Trying to analyze what I just read is another matter. :P)

Araucaria

I think maybe the dual subject-ness and complement-ness make them psychologically more like 'things'. We tend to think of thingy type thingies as nouny, I suspect.

@DamkerngT. No, prezackerly so. That's why it starts to get interesting when you do start investigating what's really happening :)

Hi @Cardinal

Man_From_India

Thank you @Araucaria

such a nice explanation.

By the way, how is OMEG?

Araucaria

@Man_From_India An interesting question!

@Man_From_India It is good if you want clear simple explanations. But I'm a bit biased. The author is my old professor!

@Man_From_India It is quite CaGEL-like in its outlook.

Man_From_India

10:42

Hmmm. But I like CGEL.

Araucaria

@Man_From_India Yes, but you can't take CaGEL on a picnic with you!

Damkerng T.

Or read it in a Kindle reader!

(OMEG is available on Kindle.)

Cardinal

Hi @Araucaria good afternoon

Araucaria

10:59

@DamkerngT. I didn't know that!

@Cardinal Afternoon :)

Man_From_India

@Araucaria i would prefer reading something else on picnic :P

Araucaria

@Man_From_India Or on the train then :)

Damkerng T.

@Araucaria I know that because I bought it. :D

Man_From_India

@Araucaria on train I will keep looking for good looking faces :P

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Do you like it?

Man_From_India

11:01

@DamkerngT. how is that?

It's far less voluminous than ACGEL or CGEL.

Damkerng T.

@Araucaria I haven't read it as much as I'd like!

Man_From_India

Does it cover all the aspects of grammar?

It's raining really hard here, suddenly.

Damkerng T.

12:17

@Man_From_India I think so, but I can feel that it's different from CGEL.

I mean, it's comprehensive as well, but it's probably more like the big picture vs. the details.

I don't mean to say that OMEG is all about the big picture and CGEL is all about details, though. Both cover, AFAICT, everything, but the ways the two books are organized make me feel they give different weights to different subjects.

Man_From_India

13:31

@DamkerngT. how can I reduce the size of a pdf?

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India What do you mean by reducing the size?

Typically, we can group PDF files into two main types, image-based vs. vector-based. The former tends to be huge, no matter how hard we try.

You could try to convert these PDF files into a vector one (most OCRed PDF files are more or less about this idea), but it's not usually easy, I think.

Man_From_India

I scanned a a document, but when I am trying to upload it in a particular website it says it has to reduce the size of the pdf.

it's not OCR pdf.

Damkerng T.

You could try to OCR it, if you have an OCR program.

A scanned PDF tends to be large. I guess we don't have a real solution.

Reducing the resolution may help a little, but not much.

Man_From_India

14:14

Finally done! Ubuntu on rescue :-) and I didn't have to try various free software for pdf compression. These free Windows softwares on internet are mostly bloatware/junkwares :(

I haven't bought the acrobat pro version, so I can't do much thing in acrobat reader except for viewing pdfs.

Damkerng T.

15:09

@Man_From_India Hooray!

Man_From_India

:-)

TIPS

@HelkaHomba I voted for a servant robot, with the same Kernel version that @Dam has. When will it be shipped?

Damkerng T.

@TIPS Soon!

TIPS

@DamkerngT. In what scale?

Damkerng T.

@TIPS Maybe an extraterrestrial scale.

:P

I lost count of your name being mentioned several days ago, BTW.

TIPS

15:22

Well, it seems Russian kettles are the only things in this chat with some feelings towards chemicals.

Damkerng T.

@TIPS I guess everyone has. :D

TIPS

LIES! I did not get a single ping from you.

Damkerng T.

Well, not pinging doesn't mean not missing. :D

TIPS

Oh, so you're one of they shyer ones.

Shaiyaier

Damkerng T.

See, everyone kept wondering where you've been. I had to keep guessing, maybe you're in your class. :-)

TIPS

15:25

How is the spelling?

Damkerng T.

@TIPS Chai, like tea? :P

TIPS

in The Periodic Table, Jul 24 at 19:33, by TIPS

Hey all! Sorry I had to be away and disappeared in such an abrupt manner. ISP issues and all. The issue will hopefully be resolved in a few days and I'll return with full strength. Long live chat

Damkerng T.

Ahh

I guess 7 is counted as a few.

TIPS

Oh man

You did miss me!

Damkerng T.

:P

TIPS

15:29

Well, I did increase my study hours a bit.

Damkerng T.

I haven't used chat much lately myself, though.

TIPS

I also started reading CGEL.

Damkerng T.

@TIPS Hah! That's great!

TIPS

Speaking of which, some questions started hitting me @Dam.

Damkerng T.

Oh, which ones?

TIPS

15:33

Ones that I probably know the answer to, but 1) not for sure, and 2) I don't precisely know all that's about to be said in the answers.

@DamkerngT. Hmm, let's see

> Are there any major exceptions to the 'reversal' rule in specifying predicative complements syntactically?

> Are there any syntactic restrictions on which dependents can fuse with heads?

> When is the departure of NP's from singular/plural assignment of nouns allowed?

> Why can't all adjectives appear in both attributive and predicative constructions?

CC @Dam

Damkerng T.

They probably are both good and broad at the same time.

TIPS

Yes, since they're not seasoned in any way.

Just got blurted out of my, perhaps tired and sick, mind.

Damkerng T.

Aww... pats TIPS

TIPS

I usually do a lot of searching before finally reaching a dead-end and ask the question in chat or a main site, since that's the SE attitude, but this time I just put them here for anyone interested.

TIPS

16:03

Oh nice

I got a pin, by Dam himself.

I feel important

Damkerng T.

:D

Cardinal

16:25

Hi @TIPS

TIPS

Hullo

Cardinal

I missed the corrections

TIPS

*.

Cardinal

I though you were arrested when creating illegal drugs

TIPS

Hullo @whitedevil! Welcome to LO!

whitedevil

16:27

HI

I can help people make those drugs

I got skills

TIPS

@Cardinal How did you get hold of this intel?

Wait, whoops

Cardinal

@whitedevil you and @TIPS would be a fantastic team

whitedevil

@Cardinal I work alone

TIPS

Not that I need any help

whitedevil

Oh that's actually contradictory considering my first comment

Cardinal

16:29

:0) Russian laughter

whitedevil

@TIPS Everyone does

Cardinal

@TIPS I cannot construe this

intel intelligence ?

TIPS

Google "intel".

Cardinal

It was just my thought

TIPS

Actually, "intel meaning", since I don't want you ending up buying some computer chips.

whitedevil

16:31

It says: Semiconductor manufacturing company

Cardinal

nods

TIPS

@whitedevil That's of course what I meant

whitedevil

Does everyone have CGEL here?

Cardinal

Although I know the corp, it does not change any thing about my problem with that question

"How did you get hold of this intel?"

TIPS

@Cardinal "How did you find out?"

@whitedevil Only the rich do. The one percent

Cardinal

16:35

:))

TIPS

I think @Dam, @Cowp and @Snail at least have it.

whitedevil

I guess I'm poor

Am proud of it

Cardinal

Where should I put the "I"?

whitedevil

I ntel

TIPS

@Cardinal Which I?

Left I, or right I?

Cardinal

16:38

@whitedevil this "I"

whitedevil

@Cardinal You are confusing me. You?

Cardinal

aren't

TIPS

@Cardinal Put it in the fridge.

whitedevil

Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze!!

Cardinal

It is already full with it's family members: She, He, They, ...

whitedevil

16:40

And of course I

Cardinal

There is not enough space for that

whitedevil

@Cardinal Too packed?

Cardinal

I mean for "I" :0)

yes packed like sardines

whitedevil

In a crushed tin box

Cardinal

Thank you I almost forgot that idiom

whitedevil

16:42

I AM a reasonable man

Cardinal

@whitedevil :0)

@whitedevil I see

TIPS

@whitedevil Then I PM a reasonable man

At this time of the day, it's my turn.

Cardinal

@TIPS I was thinking to the same thing-- PM

whitedevil

What time is it there?

Cardinal

past of migration

TIPS

16:44

@Cardinal *thinking about/thinking of

@whitedevil 9:14 P.M.

Cardinal

both are correct

TIPS

@Cardinal But *thinking to isn't.

Cardinal

@TIPS Are you sure ? I have no idea

TIPS

Yes.

Cardinal

He was thinking to fridge

whitedevil

16:46

I agree with TIPS about the usage

Cardinal

nods

whitedevil

But I think it's acceptable in UK, maybe....?

Cardinal

I was thinking to ask 216 Maria Stan

whitedevil

Now that's an infinitive

TIPS

@whitedevil It is at least non-standard.

Cardinal

16:48

It is a result among the many results of Google book

TIPS

@Cardinal *thinking about asking

Although hmm, that to is syntactically "ask"'s, not "think"'s.

Cardinal

nods yes

TIPS

But not in your example.

"to" can in no way be in the same constituent as "the same thing".

Your sentence is undoubtedly ungrammatical.

whitedevil

Un-un

TIPS

In the examples with the infinitival, however, "to ask Maria Stan" is an object of "think", I presume.

This is grammatical, for example:

> I was thinking bananas.

whitedevil

16:51

Minions?

Cardinal

@TIPS which sentence?

TIPS

8 mins ago, by Cardinal

@TIPS I was thinking to the same thing-- PM

@whitedevil This is a funny word. I wish "Nimions" and "Ninioms" were a thing.

Cardinal

The interesting point is "think to" was more popular in the past

whitedevil

In 1800s

Cardinal

@whitedevil :0)

BBL

whitedevil

16:55

Gotta go, too. Bye @TIPS!

TIPS

@Cardinal I do think "think" acquired a direct object more often in the past.

Damkerng T.

17:25

quora.com/…

Basically, people over there say it's wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong.

(The question is "Is "I thought to come to your home yesterday" correct in English? If it is wrong, how could I correct it?")

I agree that we wouldn't normally use it.

But!

> New American Standard Bible
"So I thought to inform you, saying, 'Buy it before those who are sitting here, and before the elders of my people. If you will redeem it, redeem it; but if not, tell me that I may know; for there is no one but you to redeem it, and I am after you.'" And he said, "I will redeem it."

TIPS

@whitedevil Bye!

@DamkerngT. This might be correct, actually.

Where are prescriptivist overzealous editors when you need them?!

Damkerng T.

:D

Man_From_India

@TIPS of course there is. In CGEL there is a good discussion on it. In ACGEL too, but they call it by different name what CGEL calls fused-head NP.

Welcome back @TIPS

TIPS

\o/ \o

Man_From_India

I didn't understand your first question, any example?

TIPS

17:32

^ After 3600 years, people will consider my message a cryptic response and try to decode it.

Man_From_India

Sorry I mean a good discussion about your second question.

TIPS

So, which is it? The first, or the second question?

Damkerng T.

BTW, boy needs more examples than man ...

Man_From_India

@TIPS I meant about your second question there is a good discussion in CGEL in chapter dealing with Noun.

And I couldn't understand your first sentence, please give some example.

TIPS

K thanks. I'll need to read further, then.

Man_From_India

17:39

Yes there is.

If you have Quirk et al. you can find it there too. But they don't call this type of construction as fused, but you can relate.

When I started reading it, I found it really hard.

It hardly made sense that time.

TIPS

. . . Now it makes even less sense

Man_From_India

Hehe some times :-)

Damkerng T.

2

Q: "It will be very interesting" or "It would be very interesting"?

In this dictionary, the modal verb "would" has 14 meanings. Ok, let see this very short conversation: A: I'm going to the cinema tonight. Do you want to come along? B: Yes, I do. A: That would be very interesting / That will be very interesting. Ok, let see the sentence "That w...

"In this dictionary, the modal verb "would" has 14 meanings." -- That's one good way to make it difficult.

What if the dictionary instead said, would means "blah blah blah" and then gave 14 examples instead?

I guess would would be simpler instantly!

Man_From_India

Every learner should read Swan's PEU. By the time they would finish it, they are already well equipped.

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Man_From_India

17:52

This only one book is enough.

CowperKettle

Good evening khrap.

Glad to see you back, @TIPS

Damkerng T.

o/

I think it's a good thing that nobody has written a book on the grammar of human gestures.

Otherwise, we may be warned with something like, "Don't raise two hands together too high when talking. It's ungrammatical."

:P

TIPS

18:09

@CowperKettle Thank you! I loved and ate all the pings with great appetite.

Damkerng T.

@TIPS @TIPS!

Bon appetit!

CowperKettle

18:22

@TIPS (0:

I hope you're okay over there, Muhammad.

@DamkerngT. When I rode up to the train station this morning, there was a group of mute bicyclists. They communicated using gestures. At first I thought that they came there to ride as part of my group.

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle I guess they have some sort of grammar for their language, too!

CowperKettle

Yes, the sign language.

The same brain area is responsible for sign language grammar as for usual language grammar.

Lesions cause similar defects either in speaking or sign communicating people

Damkerng T.

nods

CowperKettle

It rained from 8 am to about 4 pm today, so we soaked through on the ride

Damkerng T.

Hope you won't catch a cold!

CowperKettle

18:29

Of course I won't. We then went to a lake and swam a bit. (0:

Damkerng T.

Nice!

CowperKettle

Yep. (0:

Kamensk-Uralsky

Kamensk-Uralsky (Russian: Ка́менск-Ура́льский) is a city in Sverdlovsk Oblast, Russia, located at the confluence of the Kamenka and Iset Rivers (Ob's basin). Population: 174,689 (2010 Census); 186,153 (2002 Census); 207,780 (1989 Census); 173,000 (1972); 51,000 (1939). == History == Kamensky Zavod was founded in the late 17th century as a settlement next to the cast iron smelting factory and foundry, commissioned on October 15, 1701. For the first two centuries of existence it was known for its cannons. First schools opened in Kamensk in 1724. The cast iron smelting factory was rebuilt in 1825...

Rode around this city, the first time I've ever visited it.

Damkerng T.

"For the first two centuries of existence it was known for its cannons."

Interesting

CowperKettle

There's a beautiful cannon statue, I did not have time to take a picture