Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

00:11

Word of the Day: clowder

chocolate

00:43

@snailplane また言うたはります・・・

flagした方がいいですかね・・

Damkerng T.

02:01

1

Q: when facing/ faced with

I found this sentence in an article: Stress is the physical and mental tension you feel when you are faced with change. Some people changed it into a TOEIC question with two possible answers regarding Reduced Relative Clauses. The two choices are when faced with and when facing with. I c...

word-usage

A more interesting question would be: what is faced in be faced with?

(I know, I know. It could be just another verb vs. adjective problem.)

Man_From_India

03:25

Ambiguous. Hard to determine. (with a fever of 100+ degree it's very hard for me. From yesterday morning I'm on bed, and the fever keeps coming back on and off. Too weak, hardly ate anything.

The problem with our doctors is they start their treatment with strong anti biotics. Despite so much awareness, I don't know why they do it.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Aww... Get well soon!

V.V.

@Man_From_India, Sorry to hear that.Get well!,

Btw, that answer of yours was great, I upvoted. Couldn't write earlier, almost had no chance. Your answer was very helpful. Thanks a lot.

Man_From_India

@V.V. if it halps, I'm glad :-) Thank you.

V.V.

Yes, a lot.And I always read your answers and find something interesting and helpful.

Hi, Dam! You don't sleep?

Damkerng T.

No, as usual. :D

V.V.

03:41

I seem to have missed a lot.

Damkerng T.

Don't worry. The questions and our chat logs are always here. :D

V.V.

At weekends it's hard. I can catch some moments to see something and then disappear.

TIPS

09:04

5 hours ago?! Really?

What are you guys doing? Sleeping?!

JBL

@ TIPS Hi

@TIPS

TIPS

Hullo

JBL

@TIPS I wrote some sentences as variations.

It is widely known that b was deaf./ Beethoven is widely known to have been deaf

TIPS

Variations of what?

Oh

-lanore

JBL

but I can't get away from that Beethoven still alive in the 2nd sentence.

TIPS

09:17

@JBL The second sentence is grammatically correct, but not what I'd ever say.

JBL

yes I was thinking something is weird

TIPS

@JBL None of your sentences have any real implications on Beethoven's death.

But, perhaps, you want me to suggest you this: "Beethoven was widely known to have been deaf."

JBL

'b' in the 1st sentence is Beethoven

TIPS

I know.

JBL

then does your sentence give his death??

TIPS

09:20

No.

BRB

JBL

so I have to metion it additionally..

TIPS

Back

@JBL No, why?

JBL

welcome bakc

back

TIPS

Who doesn't know Beethoven lived a couple of centuries ago?

JBL

umm right

I often hear my sentences are broken English… where does, you think, it come from?? Is it due to the different way of thinking?

Damkerng T.

09:32

@JBL It's quite simple. You say what you haven't heard before.

JBL

so you mean I need to expand my english carefully based on what natives use??

Man_From_India

> John sat in the minivan carrying seven passengers.

Damkerng T.

@JBL If you keep coming up with your own English, you'll be very good at your own copy of English.

Man_From_India

Does this verb+ing ever has a non progressive aspect?

JBL

i think 'fishing rod' is an example

Damkerng T.

09:37

Hmm... I think CGEL has a good word for this. It's a non-tensed verb, or something like that.

@Man_From_India BTW, that the sounds a bit odd out of context.

Man_From_India

Yes non tensed, but progressive aspect.

Damkerng T.

I suppose that in most contexts, that the sounds a bit strange as well.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. i just copied this sentence from an answer ;)

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India From where?

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. from this answer

1

A: The role of 'sleeping' in 'sleeping baby'

It's not a special use. The ing form can refer to the action going on right now, or to one that is habitual. This carries over to its use as a modifier: Going on at the moment of speaking: They were careful not to wake the sleeping baby. John sat in the minivan carrying seven passengers...

Damkerng T.

09:39

The delivery of the information is unexpected to me.

Man_From_India

I think I have to read more :-)

Damkerng T.

It's not ungrammatical, but I wouldn't expect anyone to write it that way.

Man_From_India

Though a "sleeping baby" and "carrying" are not the similar construction.

@DamkerngT. that is what I thought. But

The relative clause can be reduced with verb+ing.

The minivan that carries 7 people = the minivan carrying 7 people?

TIPS

@DamkerngT. Marginal basket ʕ ⊃･ ◡ ･ ʔ⊃︵┻━┻

\o @Man @Dam

Damkerng T.

@TIPS It could be okay in its own context. Sadly, we have no context for it in the original article. :-)

o/

Man_From_India

09:43

Maybe I'm not sure.

@DamkerngT. right.

TIPS

@Man_From_India If you're not sure, there's no maybe to that.

Man_From_India

@TIPS there is a pause after "maybe" :P

TIPS

@Man_From_India NO INVISIBLE PAUSES

Make commas great again

@Man_From_India I don't think these strictly have the same meaning though.

Man_From_India

Oh I found it -

> I can’t find my notebook containing all my addresses.

> I can’t find my notebook that contains all my addresses.

TIPS

Regarding the fourth of July

Damkerng T.

09:49

Oh, right! It's today!

Man_From_India

On 4th of July I'm only one day old :D

Damkerng T.

Without using your example (which I find unidiomatic with a participle), here is an example you can find on the web: "What did Sherlock Holmes say about a dog not barking?” --Tight as a Tick by Toni L. P. Kelner. — Damkerng T. Sep 13 '15 at 5:45

Hey, I think I agree with myself!

I didn't like it then. I still don't like it now.

TIPS

@Man_From_India Eh, your birthday was yesterday?!

Man_From_India

Hehe

Yup

Damkerng T.

Happy birthday!

TIPS

09:51

A man from India was born.

The world didn't care . . . yet.

Go do something to the world, @Man

Man_From_India

I hardly have anything really to give to the world. Those what the world needs the most.

Thank you :-)

TIPS

@Man_From_India Pfft, you think that many people out there are giving the world what it needs?

Loong

@TIPS hm

Maybe the Perfidious Albion should not make such comments about treason this year.

TIPS

Hullo @Loong, welcome to LO!

The world is thirsty, and governments are only giving it sea water.

Loong

@TIPS hello

Man_From_India

09:56

@TIPS of course there are some people giving what the world needs.

TIPS

@Man_From_India Too few at the moment.

Too overpowered.

Random GIF:

Man_From_India

And even among them most of them does it for their own interest. To turn black into white.

Damkerng T.

10:13

Hmm... interesting... most examples of "carrying seven passengers" are from India.

It looks like they prefer other alternatives in other dialects.

For example (an old tweet):

> Plane carrying 7 passengers crashes in Massachusetts: FAA

Without looking up the news, do you think the 7 passengers refers to the capacity of the plane or the number of passengers of that flight?

CowperKettle

Swadee khrap!

What a surprise. Hi, @Loong!

Damkerng T.

'Waddee khrap!

CowperKettle

Good afternoon, Muhammad!

Loong

@CowperKettle hi

TIPS

@CowperKettle \o

CowperKettle

10:20

@MaulikV - it's an idiomatic expression, it has amalgamated into a kind of fixed phrase. I was [absent] = I was [out-of-town]. Almost like an adjective in a copular construciton. — CowperKettle 10 secs ago

It's idiomatic non-use of article.

Damkerng T.

2

Q: How to parse "less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% "

I've been struggling to parse the following sentence from the UK petition to implement EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum. We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there shoul...

prepositions parsing

Hmm... BrE?

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. i would say it's very very unlikely.

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle It's idiomatic indeed. Whether it's the zero article or not would depend on whether or not the reader believes in the zero article. :P

Man_From_India

Oh wait, I would take it that at the time of crash it had 7 passengers on board.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I know, right?

CowperKettle

10:27

What if the reader is agnostic about the zero article?

Damkerng T.

But our example seems to mean the other way around, if I'm not mistaken.

@CowperKettle Ellipsis, perhaps. :D

CowperKettle

We Russians have a rhymed saying: "Otchego u koshki khvostik? - Ya ne znayu, ya agnostic" (Why does the cat has a tail? I don't know, I'm an agnostic)

Damkerng T.

10:43

@Cardinal grammar is deprecated. (For more information, ask @TIPS. :-)

CowperKettle

"khvost" is "tail", and "khvostic" is the diminutive form of "tail"

Damkerng T.

Ahh... khvostik and khvostic are two different words, I presume.

TIPS

More information: @Cardinal grammar is deprecated.

CowperKettle

no, they are two different ways of transcribing (the?) Russian хвостик

Russian has the letter "K" that sounds like C in Carl or like K in Okay

Damkerng T.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure if I pronounce cepstrum correctly.

Cepstrum

A cepstrum (/ˈkɛpstrəmˈˌˈsɛpstrəmˈ/) is the result of taking the Inverse Fourier transform (IFT) of the logarithm of the estimated spectrum of a signal. It may be pronounced in the two ways given, the second having the advantage of avoiding confusion with 'kepstrum' which also exists (see below). There is a complex cepstrum, a real cepstrum, a power cepstrum, and a phase cepstrum. The power cepstrum in particular finds applications in the analysis of human speech. The name "cepstrum" was derived by reversing the first four letters of "spectrum". Operations on cepstra are labelled quefrency analysis...

Oh, whichever way is fine!

CowperKettle

10:47

Hey! It was my role to post Wikipedia inserts!

(0:

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle Sorry!

CowperKettle

I never heard about "cepstrum"

Damkerng T.

It's spectrum in reverse. :D

TIPS

imgur.com/gallery/7CuPC29

Damkerng T.

Rainbow chili pepper!

"mild to hot" -- LOL

CowperKettle

10:57

Hobbiton Movie Set

The Hobbiton Movie Set was a significant location used for The Lord of the Rings film trilogy and The Hobbit film series. It is situated on a family run farm about 8 kilometres (5.0 mi) west of Hinuera and 10 kilometres (6.2 mi) southwest of Matamata, in Waikato, New Zealand, and is now a Tolkien tourism destination, offering guided tours of the set. == Pre-film set history == The underlying geology of the area is that of the Hinuera Formation, a group of alluvial silts, sands and gravels laid down in the last glacial period. Originally largely marshland, it was transformed in the 19th century...

Cardinal

Hi there

@TIPS What happened ?

@TIPS Got it

Jim Reynolds

A pepper is a capcicum (Latin/scientific name). Is that a coincidence, y'all having been talking about a cepstrum? O.O

Jim Reynolds

11:24

Tolkien in a letter to W H Auden: I first tried to write a story when I was about seven. It was about a dragon. I remember nothing about it except a philological fact. My mother said nothing about the dragon, but pointed out that one could not say 'a green great dragon', but had to say 'a great green dragon'. I wondered why, and still do. The fact that I remember this is possibly significant, as I do not think I ever tried to write a story again for many years, and was taken up with language.

http://www.tolkienestate.com/en/writing/letters/letter-163-to-wh-auden.html

CowperKettle

> My mother said nothing about the dragon, but pointed out that one could not say 'a green great dragon', but had to say 'a great green dragon'. I wondered why, and still do.

Thank God there was no ELL SE in those days!

Man_From_India

11:56

@CowperKettle A Comprehensive Grammar of English Language has a pretty good discussion on this topic.

Damkerng T.

12:34

@JimReynolds Evening!

CowperKettle

Lady tasting tea

In the design of experiments in statistics, the lady tasting tea is a famous randomized experiment devised by Ronald Fisher and reported in his book The Design of Experiments (1935). The experiment is the original exposition of Fisher's notion of a null hypothesis, which is "never proved or established, but is possibly disproved, in the course of experimentation". The lady in question claimed to be able to tell whether the tea or the milk was added first to a cup. Fisher proposed to give her eight cups, four of each variety, in random order. One could then ask what the probability was for her getting...

Damkerng T.

Lady tasting tea ...

Gentleman answering ELL questions

CowperKettle

This has led me to hypergeometric distribution

O_O

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle Nice!

CowperKettle

Of which I understood 0%

Damkerng T.

12:47

From "Wickedpedia", "The gentleman answering ELL questions is an infamous randomized experiment devised by a bot and reported in a chat room. The gentleman in question claimed to be able to answer questions correctly based on what "sounds okay" or "make sense" to him. After the 10th attempt, the bot rejected its own nil-hypothesis because it was too confusing as it was very confused by it."

@CowperKettle Oh!

CowperKettle

>
The secondary efficacy endpoints were compared using Fisher’s exact test / Pearson’s χ2 test. The design of analysis did not provide for adjustment for covariates.

I translated that from Russian for a test, but damned if I knew what that means.

Araucaria

Oh dear science. Too much for a Monday! I'm off. See you all :)

CowperKettle

> .. did not provide for covariate adjustment. (better)

Bye, @Araucaria!

> Araucaria's expectations did not provide for a chat filled with statistics jargon.

Damkerng T.

I take it that you've already checked Wikipedia pages of the two topics.

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. I actually scored A on statistics in University

Damkerng T.

13:01

Ah, okay!

CowperKettle

I did an analysis and a forecast of tax collections in Siberia

But I forgot everything. (0:

BBL

Damkerng T.

See you later!

CowperKettle

15:49

Thank you for wrapping up P20's mother, @JimReynolds

Jim Reynolds

@CowperKettle Wouldn't that be mummy? :D

@DamkerngT. Hi!

Cardinal

Hi there

Is there any difference among the amidst, midst, and middle ?

S.R.I

@Cardinal heh, here's my rough shot at it: amidst for company, midst for action and middle for position or action?

amidst is another way of saying 'among' -- as in, you're among illustrious company

Others can explain it a lot better

Cardinal

16:07

@S.R.I

In the middle of the fight

In the midst of the fight

?

which do you prefer

btw, I forgot to say thank you ! :)

CowperKettle

> Tissue from the lung of a smoking dog with atypical histologic changes contained immunoreactive ACTH, almost exclusively in the big form, while tissue from another smoking dog that was histologically normal contained no ACTH.

"Smoking dog"? O_O

Cardinal

what is a histologic ?

CowperKettle

related to tissue

What is a smoking dog, for Christ's sake..

Maybe I should ask a question on ELL

Jim Reynolds

A dog made to smoke tobacco in a lab?

CowperKettle

^_^

Jim Reynolds

16:13

I'm serious

Cardinal

I completely agree with Jim

CowperKettle

Oh. Maybe it is.

Weird

Cardinal

Perhaps it was a part of an experiment

Jim Reynolds

Yes. Like if they created stress in rats by some specified means, they may call them stressed rats.

Alternatively, that could mean @CowperKettle while working on an approaching deadline.

StoneyB

@JimReynolds Perhaps they set the dog on fire.

CowperKettle

16:17

No, I was just reading up on possible causes of high cortisol.

StoneyB

If its fur was damp it would merely smolder and smoke instead of bursting into flame.

Jim Reynolds

haha

CowperKettle

(0:

Jim Reynolds

Or the Roadrunner's feet, with Wile E. Coyote in pursuit.

CowperKettle

> This is a strong man-made (synthetic) glucocorticoid medication.

Can we read it as "This is a medication that was made by a strong man"?

Jim Reynolds

16:19

No. It'a clear.

StoneyB

No - that would be "strong-man-made"

CowperKettle

Ah.

StoneyB

Unless you have an autocrat in mind, in which case it would be "strongman-made"

Jim Reynolds

Are you a man made strong by medication?

StoneyB

Me or Cow?

Jim Reynolds

16:21

A strong maid made mad by a medicated strongman?

CowperKettle

(0:

Jim Reynolds

I was thinking cow at first

Then you wrote while I was compiling, and I thought, Well maybe we'll get some good information on one or both of you.

CowperKettle

Actually, yes, when I started to take L-thyroxine I noticed I could jog for longer.

StoneyB

Certainly I'm not. I have a gray beard, my face is wrinkled, my eyes purge thick amber and plum-tree gum, and I have a plentiful lack of wit, together with most weak hams. I attribute all these advantages to drugs, primarily caffeine and nicotine.

Jim Reynolds

There it is!

CowperKettle

16:24

(0:

Jim Reynolds

Haha. Well described!

Cardinal

So would you help me with amidst, midst and middle?

:)

CowperKettle

Middle is the plain vanilla variant.

StoneyB

@Cardinal What help do you need?

Cardinal

I just asked above, is there any difference among them

And S.R.I suggested something about it

CowperKettle

16:30

amidst can mean "among", IMHO

Cardinal

What does IMHO mean ? sounds naive, I know !

CowperKettle

in my humble opinion

StoneyB

Amidst is a preposition, midst and middle are nouns.

Cardinal

I was curious to know the correct usage.
e.g

In the middle of a fight
In the midst of a fight

StoneyB

In the midst of a fight indicates physical location; in the middle of a fight may mean that or temporal location.

Cardinal

16:36

consider a rough debate

can we say

In the middle of the debate

or

in the midst of the debate

CowperKettle

So you don't say "It was in the midst of the week"?

Cardinal

good question

StoneyB

No. That would imply that somehow the week was going on all around you. :)

S.R.I

Yeah, you don't say "It was in the midst of the week" -- that would imply some sort of emphasis on the week and you were completely oblivious to it. That doesn't happen, does it? :-)

StoneyB

Nor would you say amidst the week.

S.R.I

16:40

Right

Cardinal

CowperKettle

18:14

Do you mean to say that in Spanish, we can write "That green skirt belongs to Annie, is her skirt"? — CowperKettle 10 mins ago

Omission of pronoun in Spanish.

TIPS

18:50

Oh no, I missed a chat with @Jim.

Who am I going to bash now?

imgur.com/gallery/jpRFhiQ

Damkerng T.

19:21

@TIPS Me? :P

TIPS

@DamkerngT. Nah, you're too cute

Damkerng T.

Thanks! :D

Færd

What is it called when the message of a film, story, etc which which is expected to be delicately intimated, is crudely and artlessly put out in the open?

I'm looking for an adjective to describe that kind of film, story, etc.

TIPS

@Færd open-ended?

You should go to movies.SE and read some of the top questions.

Damkerng T.

19:36

The first word came to mind: mangled

TIPS

I think a mention of an adj you're looking for is in one of those.

Damkerng T.

Then spoiled. Then synonyms of them.

Færd

@TIPS Don't think so.

@TIPS Nice suggestion!

@DamkerngT. That connotes a previous fine state that got spoiled.

Damkerng T.

I take it that such a fine state is expected.

Færd

Some authors just don't know how to speak indirectly at the first place.

They end up spelling out their every intention.

Leaves their work without deeper levels to explore.

Damkerng T.

19:40

Hmm...

unimaginative?

Færd

Closer.

But not just what I want.

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure what you want. :D

TIPS

@Færd Wait.

I just

I just misunderstood you.

Færd

@DamkerngT. Okay. You want to make a movie to tell youngsters not to mess their lungs up by smoking.

One way is to have your protagonist die of cancer in excruciating pain

Another way is to put it in some other way that only affects your audience on a subconscious level.

I have to think to come up with a good example of the second way.

Damkerng T.

So, it's indirect rather than direct?

Færd

19:46

Mhm.

Damkerng T.

(I thought you wanted something that can describe a story that tells everything, literally, straightforwardly.)

Færd

Oh, trivial might work!

Don't you think?

Damkerng T.

I don't think of trivial that way (judging from your smoking example).

Færd

Okay... superficial?

Damkerng T.

But if you think it sounds right, I'm sure you have a good reason. :D

Færd

19:49

Shallow?

Damkerng T.

@Færd Hmm... superficial makes me think of things or people that are superficial.

Færd

Not works of art, huh?

Damkerng T.

Shallow could be about the depth of the message, rather than how we deliver the message.

@Færd If it's about superficial things, then yes (it's okay).

Færd

Okay. Thanks for sharing your views @DamkerngT.!

Damkerng T.

Um... no problem! Not sure if I helped, though. (^_^)"

TIPS

19:51

@Færd This

Færd

@DamkerngT. You sure did.

@TIPS Oh, maybe.

I'm more comfortable with trivial though.

I have to research it.

Okay, time for bed.

TIPS

@Færd So you wanna call the movie "trivial"?

That doesn't work.

Færd

You may well have a point.

MAybe calling the message of the movie _trivial_would work though.

A shallow movie with a trivial message.

Hmm..

I'll prolly consult EL&U chat room denizens too, or even ask a question on one of the main sites (but that needs designing and work and is less fun).

But I'm going to bed now.

TIPS

Damkerng T.

Sleep tight!

Færd

19:58

Thanks for the enjoyable conversation, and bye all.

Damkerng T.

@TIPS 19. How many times can you subtract 10 from 100?

TIPS

@DamkerngT. 19

Damkerng T.

o_O

TIPS

imgur.com/gallery/5R3Mwwc

How to put a baby to sleep in less than one minute

Araucaria

23:05

@CowperKettle This is a smoking dog study. A photographic study, at least :)

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