Language Overflow

Araucaria

12:03

@Færd Do you have any adjuncts that look like interrogative clauses that don't have a conditional meaning in Farsi?

Færd

I guess Whether she's here or not in that sentence can have two very close meanings in English. It can mean I don't know if she's here or not; anyway, I can't see her or I know that she is here, but I can't see her. Am I right @Araucaria?

Those meanings can have different translations in Farsi.

Araucaria

@Færd It can only mean the first in English, not the second :)

Færd

Okay, then my translation was to the point.

@Araucaria I can't think of any right now.

Araucaria

@CowperKettle Ah, I've seen my student do that occasionally, I never thought it might have been language specific. That's very useful to know!

@Færd If you do think of any, let me know!!

Færd

@Araucaria Sure.

Araucaria

12:06

@Færd Thanks!

Færd

You're welcome!

@Araucaria I don't like it that you call the Farsi equivalent of whether she's here or not an interrogative adjunct. It doesn't have an interrogative form or meaning.

Do you really await a response when you say Whether she's here or not I can't see her? Then why the name 'interrogative'?

The Farsi sentence sounds purely conditional to me. Doesn't need any interpretation.

Damkerng T.

@Færd I think it's related to the discussion between Araucaria and I a couple days ago. It's because Whether she's here or not would be expressed as (lit.) She here or not here and it can be used as a question on its own.

CowperKettle

0

A: "You've earned the 'Nice Answer' badge" vs. "You've earned a 'Nice Answer' badge"

The answer "In English literature" or "In the English literature"? can only earn one singular "Nice Answer" badge. Thus the word the must be used. If you could earn a sequence of identical badges for this one answer then a would be used to imply you earned one of many. You earned the badge that ...

Damkerng T.

LOL -- Your observation ability is quite something!

CowperKettle

(Nice! I thought it was "the" because of it being a generic noun phrase)

Færd

12:19

@DamkerngT. Well, that cannot be a question on its own in Farsi.

Damkerng T.

nods

Færd

And I don't remember ever saying that it can. If I did or implied that it could, I must take it back.

Damkerng T.

It looks to me like @Araucaria's requirement is only that it can be used as "interrogative clauses". I'm not sure about his scope, though.

BTW, this Thai poem as six interrogative clauses in three statements!

Færd

Maybe that's an apt name for those clauses in English for some reason, but I don't like naming them interrogative in Farsi. They don't have anything to do with interrogation, in form or meaning.

Damkerng T.

a rough translation:

> Who loves, who hates, let it
Who praises, who exalts, let them
Who bores, who complains, be patient
Our mind, peaceful, is enough.

CowperKettle

12:25

Great!

Færd

Nice. Gotta save that for my tombstone.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

CowperKettle

A good sign to attach to like 1 000 000 000 internet-forums.

Damkerng T.

@Færd You could add that to your answer or as a comment on your answer, I think. That would be useful.

Araucaria

@Færd So in H&P's grammar they distinguish between questions (semantics), and interrogatives (syntax). So "you're going there on Friday?" is a declarative question. "Can you help me please?" is an interrogative directive. So the term interrogative doesn't refer to any semantics as such. It means "has the syntax of clauses that are characteristically used to represent questions". Does that make sense?

@DamkerngT. Actually, it might be more confusing than helpful, because many grammarians use "interrogative" just to refer to the syntax, and "question" to refer to the semantics. Many interrogative clauses don't have anything to do with questions! :-)

Damkerng T.

12:32

Ahh

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Yes, I suppose it's confusing whichever way you look at it! :/

@DamkerngT. [But I've got a whacky theory that those types of conditional antecedents have the same kind of basic semantics as questions. Sssh, don't tell anyone]

Damkerng T.

@Araucaria A little bit! I think I made the right choice to begin my answer with a disclaimer that I'm not sure about the definitions. :D

@Araucaria hush, hush :-)

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. I though all the answers on that question were very good and thoughtful too!

Damkerng T.

I think so!

Araucaria

I might put a bounty on that question. The readership over there is so small! I think all of those questions deserve a few more votes.

Damkerng T.

12:38

Oh, I didn't expect any more vote, really. :D

BTW, reading @johnchae's answer makes me think that there are a lot of similarities between Vietnamese and Thai.

If I'm not mistaken, it's more or less the same in Chinese dialects as well. Not sure about Japanese and Korean.

(E.g., a phrase I often heard when I was in Beijing, yaobuyao 要不要. I understand it as "take/buy or not take/buy".)

Hi, @BrianTompsett-汤莱恩! Welcome to the room!

Brian Tompsett - 汤莱恩

@DamkerngT. Thanks. Just poking around trying to work out whether Language Overflow or ELL's cabin is the one for me!

NOw I'm about to get into the 3k bracket

Damkerng T.

3k? Oh, I see. You count only ELL points.

CowperKettle

@BrianTompsett-汤莱恩 You've passed the 3k mark, congratulations!

Damkerng T.

Just a few more points, I think.

Brian Tompsett - 汤莱恩

Well I did have the privileges - up until the point when ELL went out of beta and had to earn them back again!

Damkerng T.

12:45

BTW, the Cabin is the main chat room for ELL. I'm here in LO (Language Overflow) more often, though.

But you can ping me in the Cabin anytime.

@BrianTompsett-汤莱恩 Yes, that's sad!

CowperKettle

-1 I'm sorry, but it is not the case that "the word the must be used." — AlanCarmack 22 secs ago

Brian Tompsett - 汤莱恩

@DamkerngT. Thanks. Noted. BTW - I almost never log out. I just commute between different browsers that stay logged in the SE. I mention it as it sometimes bugs people to see me in a chat room for months.....

Damkerng T.

@BrianTompsett-汤莱恩 Oh, don't worry! I do the same!

@CowperKettle Hmm... I wonder if AlanCarmack will post an answer.

CowperKettle

Articles are pesky things.

Brian Tompsett - 汤莱恩

I wonder if its my use of the word must in my answer. I'll reflect on it.

Damkerng T.

12:49

Gotta grab something to eat. BBL! o/

CowperKettle

BBL! Feed Hagu too! (0:

Student

13:06

Hi @DamkerngT. @CowperKettle have another great weekend! :)

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. @CowperKettle @Færd, @johnchae that question on linguistics now has a bounty:

5

Q: "I don't know if they escaped" / "If they escaped, they're long gone" - Conditional protases and interrogative clauses

English, conditional protases [ read "antecedents" ] bear a close resemblance to interrogative clauses. For example, they are often identical to subordinate closed interrogative clauses: If Bertha accepted that offer, she's crazy. I don't know if Bertha accepted that offer. They can be ident...

@snailplane Japanese? (see above)

Ciao all!

Damkerng T.

13:42

@Student Thanks! Same to you!

Færd

14:01

@Araucaria I guessed so. But how does whether she's here or not in I don't know whether she's here or not have "the syntax of clauses that are characteristically used to represent questions"? I can't seem to form an independent question with whether(-or).

It can be said to represent a question, but not syntactically, as far as I know.

The same goes in Farsi. The translation of that clause doesn't bare a syntactical resemblance to those clauses that are used in questions.

In fact, questions in Farsi are very similar to declarative statements: most of the time you add a word (آیا: aya) at the beginning of your sentence and change the intonation, and you have a question. You can even omit that word.

That was about questions. They're very similar to declarative sentences in their syntax.

But the translation of whether she's here or not can have a special verb form that is not a characteristic of verbs in questions in Farsi.

That's why I don't like to call it an interrogative clause in the translation of I don't know whether she's here or not.

Nihilist_Frost

14:22

Nearer, My God, to Thee | BYU Vocal Point ft. BYU Men's Chorus

►

In articulo mortis
Caelitus mihi vires
Deo adjuvante non timendum
In perpetuum
Dirige nos domine
Ad augusta per angusta
Sic itur ad astra
Excelsior

(I'm atheist BTW)

Damkerng T.

15:15

Hmm... an interesting line (if I didn't mishear it): "I got this." (then, after seeing that his arrows can't harm the opponent) "I don't got this".

Oh, found it!

KUBO AND THE TWO STRINGS - Official Trailer 2 [HD] - In Theaters August 2016

►

"I don't got this."?

Damkerng T.

15:46

> http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Grammar-For-Academic-Writing/product-reviews/1445771225/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
Take advantage of Amazon's kind offer to let you look inside. Search for 'present perfect'. Scroll down to the Appendix on pages 194, 195 and 196, where you will see such gems as 'him being going to be told' and 'this being going to have been being stated'. Wow. It's a mess. Don't think these are things you need to know. They're not. Better stay clear of this one. Wait for the revised edition, if there is one.

I followed the advice, and there they were!

This to be going to have been being stated!

"have been being stated" has 8 results on Google. (Can you guess one of the eight? :-)

"to have been being stated" has 4 results returned by Google. Three are comments on a book, which is the remaining result. (Can you guess which book it is? :-)

CowperKettle

17:22

Is there a way for a Luddite like me to understand how to find a reference for a phrase in literature using Google Books? Step by step? If not, no worries. — Cathy Gartaganis 6 mins ago

I invited her to the chat. I'm not sure what "to find a reference for" is.

Good evening, @CathyGartaganis!

books.google.com

Could you please tell what you mean by "find a reference for a phrase"?

It's quite simple: you do a search, it highlights the phrases.

Then you can take a URL, there's a special button on Google Boooks interface

Cathy Gartaganis

Hi. For example "in the English literature" - you found a reference for that using Google Books, but I don't know how to use that site.

CowperKettle

@CathyGartaganis books.google.com

Here's the link, try out any search phrase of your liking.

Evening, @Araucaria!

Cathy Gartaganis

ok, I'll copy/paste what you just said and email your instructions to someone who will understand them, thanks.

CowperKettle

@CathyGartaganis Well, okay.. but you can try it out too.

It's just like googling, not much different.

Or should it be "not very different"?

Cathy Gartaganis

Well, it's all Greek to me. (Actually, I'm fluent in Greek, so I should say, like the Greeks do, It's all Chinese to me.) lol, ok, if I manage to figure it out, I'll let you know, thanks again.

not much different

CowperKettle

17:29

(I've just made a search, and pressed the button you can press to copy the URL (the internet-link) to that specific page)

@CathyGartaganis Kalispera then!

I know exactly 2 words in Greek.

Cathy Gartaganis

I'm completely lost...you speak Greek too ? Καλησπερα !

CowperKettle

Besides those words that are borrowed into Russian from Greek, that is, I know only "kalimera" and "kalispera". (0:

Cathy Gartaganis

What's the other word you know?

Ah.Καλημερα.

CowperKettle

I don't even know the script. (0:

I guess you are Greek.

Cathy Gartaganis

No. I'm Canadian. I learned Greek in Greece, by ear, mostly.

CowperKettle

17:32

Nice!

Cathy Gartaganis

I'm of Greek descent but I didn't even know the alphabet when I came here as a monolingual Canadian.

Araucaria

@Færd I can only really give you the story according to H&P. Main clauses often express questions - they are part of an illocutionary act of asking a question. But subordinate interrogatives don't represent an act of asking a question. But they still represent questions in some way. Take the sentence He asked me whether I was Scottish. The sentence is a statement using a declarative clause. But that clause inside the sentence, whether I was Scottish, represents a question.

Cathy Gartaganis

I learned the lazy way , by speaking.

Araucaria

@Færd The sentence means something like 'He asked me the question "are you Scottish?" '. Similarly, "I don't know whether Bertha is here or not" seems to mean something like 'I don't know the answer to the question "Is Bertha here or not?" '

CowperKettle

We all learn our native language by speaking. (0:

Cathy Gartaganis

17:34

I've still not read a book in Greek - can't be bothered...

CowperKettle

I read about a hundred in English, then stopped counting..

Feb 2 at 15:47, by CopperKettle

> There is no Frigate like a Book
To take us Lands away,
Nor any Coursers like a Page
Of prancing Poetry –
This Traverse may the poorest take
Without oppress of Toll –
How frugal is the Chariot
That bears a Human soul.

Cathy Gartaganis

Since you're still here, I just Googled books.google.com so what's the next step?

For example, to find a literary reference for "in the English literature", like you did.

CowperKettle

@CathyGartaganis have you googled the phrase you need?

Cathy Gartaganis

I will, ok

Different sites came out, like when you Google something. But how did you find your specific reference? Trial and error?

CowperKettle

Then just select one of the results.

@CathyGartaganis I don't understand what you mean by "reference". I just clicked on a result that looked appropriate.

Cathy Gartaganis

17:40

You found a literary reference for the specific phrase "in the English literature" but the sites that came out just have the phrase "in English literature"

CowperKettle

ah, you should use quotation marks around the phrase to make the search precise

Cathy Gartaganis

ah

I got it! Yay! Thanks so much! Even I understood it!

CowperKettle

You're welcome!

parakaló

(thanks, Google Translate)

Cathy Gartaganis

Good one!

Παρακαλω

CowperKettle

I wonder what its etymology is.

para = near?

kalo = good?

Cathy Gartaganis

17:46

καλο =good

CowperKettle

I chemistry, there's "para" configuration of molecules.

Cathy Gartaganis

Παρακαλαω = beg

CowperKettle

I see. Might be a declension or some other morphologic variation of "beg"

Cathy Gartaganis

Παρα in Ancient Greek means near/close by and παρακαλω doesn't just mean you're welcome, it also means "Excuse me" when you want to get someone's attention, and καλω means call, so I think παρακαλω means I call you from close by to get your attention, and then it acquired the meaning of you're welcome, just a theory.

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. O_O

@CathyGartaganis Interesting, thank you!

Damkerng T.

17:56

@CowperKettle Interesting, eh? :-)

CowperKettle

In Russian, "you're welcome" is "pozhaluista", from Old Russian "pozhalui", a word meaning "please be so kind (as to do something)" + "sta", a suffix that served to enhance the word's meaning.

the suffix is unproductive nowadays. I never knew there was such a suffix really.

Damkerng T.

Welcome to the room! @CathyGartaganis

Cathy Gartaganis

You're very welcome.

CowperKettle

Yes, we never knew. (0:

ah.

@DamkerngT. Not really, just intimidating.

Cathy Gartaganis

Thank you my friend

CowperKettle

18:00

κρεβάτι - bed? Wow. It's the same in Russian.

Cathy Gartaganis

Yup. Next question from a Luddite - how did you enter the literature reference and the Ngram into your answer? By copying/pasting? I'm unable to copy/paste a pdf document.

If the answer is simple.

CowperKettle

I used a Chrome Browser addon called "Lightshot", so it could be a bit more complex.

Cathy Gartaganis

Ah, ok. No worries. At least I know how to get an Ngram - a friend explained it to me, except he didn't know what smoother was, so I left it at3. Anyway, I got the same Ngram you put in your answer.

CowperKettle

There are different methods of making a screenshot. One is pressing the PrntScrn button on the keyboard, opening a graphics editor, and pasting the image from the PC's memory buffer, then cutting it to the needed size and saving as a jpg or png file.

Cathy Gartaganis

Don't tire yourself. I'll never learn that stuff. It goes in the category of Things I'll Never Learn, like changing a flat tire and doing my taxes.

CowperKettle

18:08

(0:

Okay! I'll lurk some (need to read answers to my question on a translators' website).

Cathy Gartaganis

Have a good day my friend

CowperKettle

@CathyGartaganis Thank you! Have a good day too, Cathy!

GforOevOerD

Hi guys. Is this sentence correct? "Notice it uses the keyword this to define the name and age properties and set them equal to the parameters given." I think it's not since the word "set" should be "sets" in the sentence. However, I don't know if I'm right or not. I would appreciate anyone who could help me.

Cathy Gartaganis

18:25

@CowperKettle I just realized you probably think I knew Greek before I came to Greece. Not a word. My parents spoke in English to me. Nor did I learn Greek from them. I learned it on my own when I came to Greece. I still speak to them only in English. I learned to read, write and speak Greek on my own, like foreigners do.

I grew up speaking only English. We did French at school. I was a bad student.

CowperKettle

@CathyGartaganis No. I remember that you said you learned it only when moving to Greece, by ear.

Cathy Gartaganis

Because you said we learn our native tongue by ear, but Greek is my second language - though I guess you meant learning by ear is the easiest way - in a way, it's not, because no one explained the structure of the language to me, so I had to figure it out by myself.

CowperKettle

A lot of people go through this. My sister learned Hindi mostly by talking with Indians and self-studying. I have a copybook partly filled with her scribblings. (0:

It also sports some partiotic Indian texts on the cover, in bad funny English. (0:

She tried Chinese, Farsi, Hebrew, French...

I have some texbooks now. (0:

Cathy Gartaganis

Multi-lingualism runs in the family.

CowperKettle

I dunno.. It's just that nowadays you can communicate with people freely.

If I take a fancy to learn Japanese, I can communicate with Japanese people.

Cathy Gartaganis

18:38

Some people pick up languages easily. I don't lol

CowperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

Some people can speak a second language very fluently but it's very challenging for them to listen. It's funny that that could happen even in their first language. :P

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. When this happens in the first language, we call them "chatterboxes"

Damkerng T.

LOL -- True, that!

0

Q: Describing a person's personality as "sweet"

When we are describing the personality of an individual- a child for instance- in a report is it fine to use word " sweet" or it looks informal?

word-choice

That makes me wonder, do American English speakers use sweet the same way British English speakers do?

For some reason, the same sweet sounds different to me in the two dialects.

Cathy Gartaganis

18:54

They say "He's/She's a sweet kid.

Damkerng T.

In the same way BrE speakers do?

Cathy Gartaganis

Or sweet little boy/girl

I don't know how the Brits use it

Damkerng T.

I guess it's probably the same then.

Word of the Day: unkempt

@GforOevOerD "Notice it uses the keyword this to define the name and age properties and set them equal to the parameters given." -- I think the sentence is a bit strange. Not sure how I could fix it, but between set and sets, set seems to be more appropriate because they seem to mean "to define, and to set".

(By they, I mean whoever wrote that.)

GforOevOerD

19:10

@DamkerngT. Thank you, you're right. Do all verbs come in their infinitive form after "to", like the earlier sentence?

Damkerng T.

When it's used as an infinitive after to, it's in its infinitive form.

Hmm... what kind of explanation was that?! It's circular!

Gimme a moment.

12

A: I look forward to hearing from you or looking forward to hear from you?

This is a very common mistake! So, don't worry. Here is the cure. Ask yourself which one makes more sense: "look forward to it" or "look forward to do it"? Chances are you know that "look forward to it" sounds more natural, because you've seen or you've heard others use it that way before. And,...

I mentioned another possibility in that answer.

> He used to live in Frankfurt, but he's not used to living in cold weather.

GforOevOerD

@DamkerngT. The explanation is brilliant, thank you so much.

Damkerng T.

You're welcome! (And thanks!)

GforOevOerD

@DamkerngT. You're welcome, but you wrote the explanation. :P

Damkerng T.

And you said it was brilliant. :D

GforOevOerD

19:25

اشاشاش

hahahaha

Damkerng T.

:D

GforOevOerD

I'm learning Arabic, and I accidentally typed that xD

Anonymous

To in look forward to isn't a particle.

Damkerng T.

Oh, what should we call it, then?

Anonymous

We can tell because you can say I look forward to it but not *I look forward it to.

Damkerng T.

19:36

Seems like I chose a safer choice.

Anonymous

But compare I picked it up and *I picked up it.

Anonymous

A "particle" in this sense is a kind of intransitive preposition.

Anonymous

But in your example to is a transitive preposition.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I wonder if Old English or Middle English also allows a similar construction to I picked it up (or I picked the book up, rather than I picked up the book).

Anonymous

I think it had more preposition–verb compounds back then.

Damkerng T.

19:44

Oh! Like a preposition + a verb = a new word?

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