Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

00:02

I guess I'm just not very familiar with near as a flat adverb.

(Sorry, I lost my internet connection, again!)

Anonymous

Stupid 2013 Snailboat! I just had to fix a rudimentary error in one of her answers.

Anonymous

When will she ever learn? :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, what answer?

Oh, you changed the terminology!

Man_From_India

00:39

@snailboat I was reading that article about passive in languagelog, and there in point #5, there is this info -

> The other verbs that sometimes accompany passive clauses include come, get, go, have, hear, make, need, see, and a few others (though there are all sorts of limitations on the constructions that different verbs require).

Now I wonder if keep will be listed among those verbs that can accompany a passive clause, as in In the circus, the joker kept the crowd entertained.

In languagelog post this sentence is said to be passive -

> I saw him attacked by a flock of birds.

And this sentence is similar to my example sentence with keep.

Anonymous

@Man_From_India It's a little different, actually.

Man_From_India

But if I remember correctly CGEL will call entertained in In the circus, the joker kept the crowd entertained. an adjective. In the book I think some other though similar example was given.

@snailboat is it because it denotes the states?

Anonymous

> I saw him attacked by a flock of birds.

Anonymous

This is similar to:

Anonymous

> He was attacked by a flock of birds.

Anonymous

00:50

Semantically.

Man_From_India

Right

Anonymous

The constituent on the left (which we'll call the grammatical subject) doesn't represent the doer of the action, but the one the action is done to.

Anonymous

And the doer is instead given in a by-phrase.

Man_From_India

@snailboat oh right, I should have been more careful :-)

Anonymous

> The joker kept the crowd entertained.

Anonymous

00:51

This is more similar to a causative construction:

Anonymous

> The joker made the crowd entertained.

Anonymous

Hmm, that's a little funny.

Anonymous

Let's compare it to an active sentence:

Anonymous

> The joker entertained the crowd.

Anonymous

The one causing the state of being entertained is over on the left, and you can't add a by-phrase over on the right.

Anonymous

00:53

> *The joker kept the crowd entertained by the joker.

Anonymous

I think it's a little different.

Anonymous

Entertained does seem adjective-like there. Let's try an adjective test:

Anonymous

> The joker kept the crowd very entertained.

Anonymous

This works, so it's at least possible for entertained to be an adjective here.

Man_From_India

And another thing the post adds is that, the subject in the passive clause is not the simantic doer.

Now that you mentions make, I will ask you another thing regarding this.

make can accompany a passive clause, the post tgere mentions but doesn't provide an example sentence with make. Can you think of one?

Anonymous

01:07

Oh! That's a great question.

Damkerng T.

How about, It made him fell down?

Hmm... probably not a very good example.

Anonymous

Seems ungrammatical. It made him fall down would work, but that's just a basic causative with make taking a bare infinitival clause as a complement.

Anonymous

I can't come up with a passive example with make.

Damkerng T.

Oh, oh! I made myself heard.

Anonymous

Interesting example! How can we tell whether it's passive or adjectival?

Damkerng T.

01:13

Hmm... Because heard in I'm heard is never an adjective!

Anonymous

I found some interesting corpus examples:

Anonymous

> The second case recorded by M. Broca is that of a man, aged eighty-four, who was suddenly deprived of the faculty of speech; he understood, however, all that was said to him, and made himself understood by those about him.

Anonymous

I was trying to imagine an example like make oneself heard or understood or such with a by-phrase, but I couldn't imagine one!

Anonymous

But if you look at somewhat older writing, you can find examples.

Damkerng T.

nods -- heard and understood go well with by.

Anonymous

01:15

This example is from 1865.

Man_From_India

But he made himself understood by those..., is it passive?

Damkerng T.

I think the understood part is.

Man_From_India

Oh right. The doer is not he.

Anonymous

It does look passive.

Anonymous

What about without a by-phrase?

Anonymous

01:18

> He made himself understood.

Man_From_India

So this is also passive -

> I made myself heard.

Anonymous

We might say that it's syntactically ambiguous whether understood in my example above is a past participial verb form, or an adjective derived from that verb form. But maybe we can draw a semantic distinction between the verb form understood and the adjective understood.

Anonymous

@Man_From_India I guess so! :-)

Anonymous

I've never really thought about make-passives before.

Man_From_India

@snailboat looks the same. Semantically in this sentence he is not the doer, I mean the one who understands.

Anonymous

01:21

@Man_From_India Well, one tricky thing when we talk about passives is that different kinds of sentences have different semantic roles for subjects and objects and so forth.

Anonymous

For an active verb, most commonly the subject is a doer or an agent of some kind.

Anonymous

And when you cast a sentence with this sort of verb in the passive, you can see the roles change places, so the subject is no longer the doer; the by-phrase now contains that doer.

Anonymous

But if the subject has a different kind of semantic role, then so does the resulting by-phrase.

Anonymous

So we can't use terms like doer or agent generically for the complement of by in all passive constructions.

Man_From_India

nods

Anonymous

01:25

So what we want to look for is correspondences between the semantic roles of constituents in different positions.

Anonymous

I understand him. He is understood (by me).

Man_From_India

One more trivial question? In one ELL question I left one comment that the surprised in I was surprised is ambiguous, that means it can be either a verb or an adjective. Now also I think so. But now that I'm reading about passive, I have little doubt as to whether surprised there is at all adjective?

Anonymous

I do think it is ambiguous.

Anonymous

I am very surprised.

Man_From_India

I know I can add modifier very

Anonymous

01:27

We can say this, so it must be possible for surprised to be an adjective.

Anonymous

But can it be a verb?

Man_From_India

(oh u typed fast :P)

Anonymous

We can probably add a by-phrase, but that's not conclusive either.

Man_From_India

@snailboat i mean participle. Why not passive construction?

Anonymous

After all, we can use very and a by-phrase at the same time, which tells us that the adjective surprised can take a by-phrase too:

Anonymous

01:29

> I was very surprised by that.

Anonymous

So we need to come up with an example where surprised refers to the event of surprising someone.

Anonymous

We need to force it semantically.

Man_From_India

(very is very limited. I mean not all adjectives can be modified by very)

> That surprised me.

> I was surprised (by that)

But again we can modify surprise by very.

So is not either possible?

Anonymous

Right, the very test is limited. It tells us something is an adjective if it works, but it can't tell us something isn't an adjective if it doesn't work.

Anonymous

@Man_From_India No, we can't. *I very surprised him is ungrammatical.

Anonymous

01:35

Even if I was surprised is ambiguous, adding very ("I was very surprised") forces us to interpret it as an adjective.

Man_From_India

No i meant was very surprised.

Anonymous

Yes, that works, so we can show that surprised can be an adjective.

Anonymous

Now we just have to show that it can be a verb, too :-)

Man_From_India

Hehe

Damkerng T.

If the active voice alternative is possible, then it can be a verb, I think.

Man_From_India

01:39

I hope I didn't ruin your good evening with my trivial questions :P and DT's good morning :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, not at all!

Man_From_India

:-)

Anonymous

01:58

@DamkerngT. Yeah. We just need to come up with a passive example where it's unambiguously a verb :-)

Anonymous

Hey, how about a sentence with a with-phrase?

Anonymous

> We surprised her with a birthday party.
> She was surprised with a birthday party.

Anonymous

It's kind of hard to imagine a context where you'd actually say that, but it at least seems grammatical.

Man_From_India

Hmm only passive?

Anonymous

02:19

It seems ungrammatical if I add very.

Man_From_India

02:33

That's true though. Hmm no arguments holds good here. I think it's a passive :-)

Anonymous

Yay :-)

Anonymous

Looks like we did it then! We demonstrated that understood can be verbal, adjectival, or ambiguous.

CowperKettle

Good morning!

> Each of the six water molecules are attached to the central iron(III) ion via a co-ordinate bond using one of the lone pairs on the oxygen

Shouldn't it be "is attached"?

The author is British.

And congrats with the International Workers' Day! (0:

Man_From_India

Good morning @CowperKettle

@CowperKettle I haven't checked much about it. It seems logical to use the singular verb - is - there. But I think are is not uncommon there. You might run into such things often.

Man_From_India

03:11

@snailboat this is from an ELL question -

> The lady was surprised at what happened to her pet

I think ambiguous.

Anonymous

I think it has to be adjectival.

Anonymous

Can you come up with an active sentence corresponding to it?

Man_From_India

> what happened to her pet surprised the lady.

Anonymous

I think it would be more arguably ambiguous if it were by rather than at.

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Ah, but passivization doesn't introduce an at-phrase.

Man_From_India

03:12

(but it misses that at)

Anonymous

But I think most of the time, even with by, it would be interpreted as adjectival.

Anonymous

Even if technically there's a passive reading available.

Man_From_India

nods

Anonymous

Even more clearly in present tense examples:

Anonymous

> The window is broken.

Anonymous

03:14

This would usually be interpreted as adjectival.

Anonymous

You would need an unusual context for it to be interpreted as a passive.

Man_From_India

An Wikipedia article said when the participle denotes a state it's offen thought of as an adjective.

Anonymous

The same is true of She is surprised.

Anonymous

I haven't read the Wikipedia article, so I can't comment.

Man_From_India

But here, hmm, the introduction of PP headed by at does make it look like an adjective.

1 sec

googleweblight.com/?lite_url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

In stative and adjectival uses. This section.

Anonymous

03:19

While you can get away with saying "the participle is being used adjectivally" in that context without being wrong, I would prefer to say that you are using a participial adjective (derived from the participial verb form).

Anonymous

Overall the Wikipedia discussion seems pretty decent :-)

Man_From_India

:-)

Time for breakfast. I haven't jogged today, i took a break. It's Sunday.

Anonymous

Unfortunately, it seems like an otherwise good article has had some bad edits done to it :-(

Man_From_India

You mean it needs bad edit?

Anonymous

No, I mean there have been a number of bad edits already done to it.

Anonymous

03:24

Particularly by whoever has the changing IPv6 address.

Man_From_India

I explained unless

Anonymous

Seriously, they think "created equal" is an adjective?

Anonymous

It's not even a word.

Man_From_India

Expected unless

@snailboat right

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Where did you explain unless?

Man_From_India

03:26

Typo. expected

In ur sentence

it seems like an otherwise good article has had some bad edits done to it

Anonymous

I don't see where unless would go.

Man_From_India

Oh i m wrong. U used otherwise.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Wait, can understood be an adjective after be?

Hmm... maybe I should not thinking about adj. vs. past participle for a while.

Man_From_India

> it's understood.

I think it is participle.

I think it's not adjective.

Damkerng T.

*think

AdvSPOdCo is just strange!

Man_From_India

03:41

:O

Damkerng T.

It was mentioned in an EL&U question.

Man_From_India

For the last few days I am getting some pain round my left chest while sneezing or coughing. Not while moving, running. It's very strange. Thinking if I should consult a doctor.

Sometimes while taking deep breath.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Maybe it's some muscles.

Man_From_India

I also think so. But recently I don't get much time for running or playing. It's bad.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think the adjective understood means something else, and so we can draw a distinction based on meaning when the form itself is ambiguous.

Anonymous

03:50

@Man_From_India Yes, you should consult a doctor.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Adverbial, Subject, Predicate, Object (direct), Complement (object).

Anonymous

I assume.

Anonymous

Although it should be Predicator rather than Predicate, if so.

Damkerng T.

nods -- It still doesn't make much sense. I think a predicate should cover objects and complements, too.

Anonymous

Yes.

Anonymous

03:51

Predicator = Verb (in English).

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

Or rather, they're technically distinct. Verbs are the words that can have the Predicator function in English.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

But we usually have no real reason to distinguish them because no other words can have that function.

Anonymous

If you were talking about a language like Thai, though, you'd have more reason to distinguish them.

Damkerng T.

03:53

Hmm... because a predicate may have no verb!

Anonymous

We can distinguish them anyway, of course, if we want to be rigorous about category and function being two different things.

Anonymous

But usually people write sentence patterns like SVOC (Subject–Verb–Object–Complement).

Anonymous

And not SPOC (Subject–Predicator–Object–Complement).

Damkerng T.

I wonder if it was because the OP's first language.

Perhaps it's a Romance language.

CowperKettle

Katsudon

Katsudon (カツ丼) is a popular Japanese food, a bowl of rice topped with a deep-fried pork cutlet, egg,vegetables, and condiments. The dish takes its name from the Japanese words tonkatsu (for pork cutlet) and donburi (for rice bowl dish). It has become a modern ritual tradition for Japanese students to eat katsudon the night before taking a major test or school entrance exam. This is because "katsu" is a homophone of the verb 勝つ katsu, meaning "to win" or "to be victorious". It is also a famous gag of Japanese police films: many people think that suspects will speak the truth with tears when they...

Damkerng T.

03:54

Haha! I like it!

CowperKettle

> It is also a famous gag of Japanese police films: many people think that suspects will speak the truth with tears when they have eaten katsudon and are asked, "Did you ever think about how your mother feels about this?"

O_o

Anonymous

@CowperKettle Katsu really doesn't look like it's from cutlet, but it is! :-)

CowperKettle

@snailboat ah, it's a loan word (0:

Anonymous

Well, in Japanese, katsu sounds like it's a loanword from Chinese.

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle LOL

CowperKettle

03:55

In Russian, a cutlet is "kotleta", quite plain. Котлета

(0:

Damkerng T.

I remember that in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, there was a battle that used a similar tactic.

The leader inside the wall of the city ordered his troops to cook some local dishes of the army outside the wall and sang their local songs all night long.

The soldiers outside the wall got homesick, and they left!

It's a neat way to defend their city! :-)

Damkerng T.

04:32

Oh! Cookie Monster got the bounty!

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. Nice!

Reminds me of the real story from the Middle Ages where an Arab knight (Saladin?) cancelled a siege because the European knight inside the castle was having a wedding.

> It would pay you to read about ionisation energies if you really want to understand this.

Shouldn't it be "It will pay you"?

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle Oh, they were considerate!

CowperKettle

First conditional: If you want -- it will pay you

Damkerng T.

Hmm... It sounds like the speaker wasn't sure if it will.

I take it that they meant, "If you really want to understand this, you should read about them, and it probably will pay off."

CowperKettle

0

Q: It would pay you to read about ionisation energies if you really want to understand this

From Chemguide: It would pay you to read about ionisation energies if you really want to understand this. Shouldn't it be will, this being the so-called First Conditional?

conditional-constructions

That was fast. Thank you! (0:

off to read chemistry

Damkerng T.

04:43

:D

CowperKettle

> There could be billions of sodium ions and chloride ions packed together, or trillions, or whatever - it simply depends how big the crystal is.

A typo?

Shouldn't it be "on how big"..

Probably a typo.

Damkerng T.

I remember that I've found a similar example before. I think it's technically incorrect.

Anonymous

I'm more surprised by pay you rather than just pay.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I thought so, but Macmillan seems to agree with the usage.

> http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/pay_1
[intransitive/transitive] to have a good result
crime doesn’t pay: The message you get from the movie is simple: crime doesn’t pay.
it pays to do something: It pays to cover the pool to keep out falling leaves.
it pays someone to do something: It would pay you to get it properly checked.

Anonymous

Maybe it's dialectal.

Damkerng T.

04:50

nods

Anonymous

I think on is optional in it depends (on) how.

Damkerng T.

Oh, Macmillan agrees with you!

> http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/depend
it/that depends what/where/how etc.: “How much will I have to pay for a car?” “It depends what type of car you want.”

CowperKettle

Nice! I had no need to start a question on the main site even.

Damkerng T.

Ah, yes. I think the one I found previously didn't have a wh-word.

CowperKettle

But it always depends how interested you guys are in the issue. So it does not always pay me to ask questions here. (0:

Anonymous

04:53

Longman has the pay you thing too.

Anonymous

I posted a question on ELL.

CowperKettle

Where?

BTW, ell.stackexchange.com/users/123/abby-hairboat

Anonymous

2

Q: How is "Haigh's" pronounced in "Haigh's Chocolates"?

How is Haigh's pronounced here? I looked up Haigh in the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary, and I found two entries: Haigh (placename) /heɪ/ Haigh (family name) /heɪg/ So based on this, it seems like Haigh's could be either /heɪz/ or /heɪgz/, but I'm not sure. It seems to be an Aus...

pronunciation

Anonymous

A friend asked but I didn't know, so I stole her question and posted it on ELL :-)

Man_From_India

:-)

Damkerng T.

10:08

This is curious. I just heard "I am followers" on a TV series. (If I didn't mishear it, which I think I didn't.)

I suppose that "followers" works similarly to "friends".

PhMgBr

11:09

@DamkerngT. An effect of the internet?

Damkerng T.

@PhMgBr nods -- Or more specifically, Instagram.

PhMgBr

11:35

5

Q: "You can't learn a musical instrument ______________ you practise every day"

I was trying to do a PET sample test, and I found the following sentence reconstruction exercise, they were easy; but there's a sentence that I couldn't complete, this is the sentence: "If you want to learn a musical instrument, you need to practise every day." "You can't learn a musica...

word-request exam-question

Call me a spoil, but why does this thread's every post deserve more post than Arau or Snail or Stoney's exemplary answers?

BURN ALL TEH HNQ

Damkerng T.

12:27

Wow, I didn't think it would get this many votes!

BTW, how should I pronounce his name: Tocqueville?!

Hmm... it sounds almost like "tok-ku-kvier".

(Of course, with a couple phonemes that don't exist in English.)

johnchae

13:07

Good evening ^^

tchrist

13:23

@DamkerngT. We pronounce it in English as though it were the word "toke" followed by "vill" rhyming with "will".

I believe that ville is actually an exception in French, too.

johnchae

Guys, can you rephrase this sentence "The manufacturer guarantees that its cosmetic products are good for three years or until the expiration date on the package, whichever is sooner" so that it'd be easier to understand? Though I understand fully first phrase, but quite not sure about the connection between it and the latter "whichever is sooner" :/

CowperKettle

13:45

THere are two possible times of expiration.

Two possible points in the future.

The one that comes sooner will lead to the expiration of the guarantee.

But from what point does the three-year term start?

@DamkerngT. One toke over the ville

BREWER AND SHIPLEY- " ONE TOKE OVER THE LINE "

►

@johnchae I guess they have a range of products, and the majority of the products are good for 3 years since the moment of production. But there are some exceptions, some products that become unsuitable for use faster.

You might post this as a ELL question. (0:

tchrist

14:28

@DamkerngT. Although in French the ll grapheme normally represents /j/, the word ville is an exception to this: it is pronounced /vil/.

But in English we don’t use that /i/ vowel in his name. It’s a reduced vowel being unstressed.

johnchae

14:48

@CowperKettle Oh sorry, I was away

I'm still confused about the second phrase, it barely makes sense :/

Anonymous

15:32

@johnchae There are two dates: ① Three years (from manufacture?). ② The expiration date on the package.

Anonymous

Their guarantee lasts until whichever of the dates is earlier.

Anonymous

So if the expiration date on the package is only two months away, then that's how long their guarantee lasts for.

Anonymous

But if the expiration date were six years in the future, their guarantee would only last for three years.

Anonymous

I'm not sure exactly what the starting point for "three years" is. The time of manufacture? The time of sale?

Anonymous

It might be obvious to someone else, though :-)

johnchae

15:42

@snailboat Thank you so much, I got it now!

PhMgBr

in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, yesterday, by tchrist

The more you complain, the older you get.

CowperKettle

16:46

@snailboat Maybe they pre-print a future production date on their products and put them into storage. In case you stole a product from that storage, the guarantee will run out 3 years from the date of stealing, even if the production date is stamped 7 January 2018.

Damkerng T.

21:16

@tchrist Thank you! I tried Forvo, and I think that pronunciation on Forvo was in French, so the "v" and "l" sounded very different. (Also, I think the "t" was unaspirated.)

@johnchae Good evening! (I see that CowperKettle and snailboat helped you with the sentence already. Yay!)

Word of the Day: contumacious

Anonymous

21:33

@DamkerngT. It should say if it's French. But your description makes that sound likely.

Anonymous

In English you'll probably hear a dark (velarized/pharyngealized) /l/ in that word, but in French it should be a clear /l/.

Damkerng T.

The pronunciation of "v" makes me think of that ram-horns IPA character.

Anonymous

French /p t k/ are unaspirated as a rule, though aspiration varies slightly. /t/ may be lightly aspirated before /i/ or /u/.

Damkerng T.

The "l" sounds like a glide, pretty much quite like /j/, I think.

Anonymous

Oh, that's not an /l/ then!

Damkerng T.

21:36

Ah, I just noticed that all my bookmarks were gone! (I wondered why my browser was so fast. Now I know!) I'm gonna fix this little problem and will be back in a few minutes.

Anonymous

I interpreted "l" as /l/, but really you meant the letter, not the sound.

Anonymous

fr.forvo.com/word/de_tocqueville

Damkerng T.

nods

This is the one I tried: forvo.com/word/alexis_de_tocqueville

@snailboat Ah! This one is closer to English (or what I'd expect if it were in English)!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But it's French! :-)

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Anonymous

21:42

The /v/ should be similar in English and French.

Damkerng T.

It looks like both speakers in both clips speak French.

Damkerng T.

22:03

BTW, I just learned that RDH was responsible for compiling the conceptual index of CGEL.

Anonymous

David Crystal compiled the index for Quirk et al. 1985, and it's actually pretty good.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that Shakespeare professor, IIRC!

I like them, both the father and the son.

in English Language & Usage, 3 hours ago, by snailboat

That is, a [girls]' school, not [a girl]'s school.

This one is a bit curious. A girls' school is more common. But it's a girl's book or a girl's name.

Maybe because it's reasonable to assume that there are several girls in a school.

But books with Guide, Introduction, Exercise in the title are more common with A Teacher's or A Student's, I think.

0

A: Meaning and usage of the phrase "to be cool with something"

Someone may be/feel/look cool about something or towards someone/something. There's no collocation of "cool" with "with". You may check it up here.

o_O

Damkerng T.

22:47

I'm quite sure that most Hollywood animations are easier to listen to than movies. I wish I could measure that quantitatively.

I just watched part of Inside Out, and my subjective feeling is it's about as easy as a typical news section. Probably easier, even!

0

Q: Difference between the phrases "annoy someone" and "bum someone out"

What is the difference between the phrases "annoy someone" and "bum someone out"? I have searched the meaning of both the phrases but I am still a little confused. I think "to annoy someone" means to irritate someone and "bum someone out" means to irritate someone, bore someone and a kind of rui...

phrase-meaning phrase-usage

> "bum someone out" means to irritate someone, bore someone and a kind of ruin someone's fun (means rain on someones parade).

I wonder what dictionary they tried.

Maybe it's a different burn someone one from the one I know. (But I doubt it.)

Anonymous

23:42

@DamkerngT. I liked it! I've only watched it in Japanese, but the voices were very clear and easy to understand.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I understand That bums me out as something like "That makes me sad".

Damkerng T.

23:56

@snailboat Ah, I just noticed that it's "bum" not "burn"!

nods -- sad and upset, perhaps.

@snailboat I fell asleep before the end, so I didn't know how it ended, but I guess things would be resolved happily. :-)

Transcript for