Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

00:01

Out of the six, I think the laser blade guy is the most dangerous. To himself, I mean. :P

Anonymous

And to anyone he's high-fiving!

Damkerng T.

Haha!

Anonymous

Italics aren't common in Japanese, but they're not unheard of these days. They're always "fake italics", as far as I'm aware.

Anonymous

If I've seen italics in vertical text before, though, I wasn't paying attention!

Damkerng T.

I don't know if this one is fake, but it looks pretty good in the scene.

(Or should I say "on screen"?)

Anonymous

00:06

Well, I use the term "fake" to mean the font doesn't actually have italicized glyphs, it's just automatically generated from the regular font.

Anonymous

As far as I'm aware, at any rate, there are no Japanese fonts with italic forms.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think the fact that the font is vector helps. :D

Anonymous

Bitmap fonts for Japanese have their place. They can be more legible in very low resolution environments. But most of the time they're no longer used, I think.

Anonymous

I still use bitmap fonts in xterm :-)

Damkerng T.

Aww... I've never used Japanese characters in any terminal!

Anonymous

00:10

I use them all the time.

Anonymous

Japanese support has gotten better on Linux/BSD in general over the last 20 years.

Anonymous

When I started using X11, it was hard to get Japanese set up, and there was no Unicode support, only EUC-JP.

Anonymous

There were already multiple conversion engines, though. I used kinput2.

Damkerng T.

It was the same for Thai!

Anonymous

Oh, I bet!

Anonymous

00:12

Damkerng T.

Japanese is challenging because it has so many characters!

Anonymous

This is what the bitmap font I'm using right now looks like.

Damkerng T.

It looks pretty good!

Anonymous

The font is slightly larger than the default fixed, and I think all the characters are clear and legible.

Anonymous

They aren't quite as pretty as in Terminal.app on my Mac, but they're crisp and easy to read.

Damkerng T.

00:14

Thai is sort of okay in Linux graphical terminals, but it'd look a bit squashed.

Anonymous

Oh, I see.

Damkerng T.

Anonymous

Let me start an xterm with the default font so you can see things a little more squashed.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That does look a bit squashed!

Damkerng T.

Yeah!

It's because we write it in three levels.

Anonymous

00:17

Anonymous

Look at 磨いて, for example. It's at the beginning of the fourth line in the third section.

Anonymous

It's readable, but it's squished together.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I see!

Anonymous

You can't see the individual strokes in 夢 or 磨 in that font, but you can in the font I usually use.

Anonymous

届 looks a little awkward, too, although it's readable too.

Damkerng T.

00:19

I guess we can still read them even though they are a little squished.

Anonymous

Yeah. Although if you're not familiar with a character, reading a squished form is harder.

Anonymous

Once you're used to reading it, your mind compensates for the squishedness automatically, and you don't really notice.

Anonymous

I would generally recommend to learners to get used to seeing more legible character forms, because once you can read those you can read the squashed ones :-)

Anonymous

So, I'd suggest a bigger font (like I use) to learners.

Anonymous

In my case, the bigger font is also nicer because my eyes aren't the best.

Anonymous

00:21

My monitor has more dots per inch than it used to, so a larger font is very helpful.

Damkerng T.

I think a bigger font is really helpful.

Anonymous

Plus, it looks nicer. :-)

Damkerng T.

00:34

Hmm... For some reason, I like Let's see who is the real man better than Let's see who the real man is, but I think either is acceptable.

4

Q: The order of words in a clause

"Tell me who she is." "Tell me who your boyfriend is." We usually reverse the order, so it becomes like that. But I wonder whether "tell me who is the real man" also works because "tell me who the real man is" sounds like we have already known the real man and I am just asking about hi...

grammar

Anonymous

I like them about equally, assuming you allow me to reduce is to 's in the former.

Anonymous

Let's compare two clauses:

Anonymous

> Bob's the real man.

Anonymous

> The real man is Bob.

Anonymous

If we make interrogative clauses out of these, what happens?

Anonymous

00:42

> Who's the real man?

Damkerng T.

It'd become Who is the real man?

Anonymous

Yes!

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Here, the interrogative phrase is in subject position, so it's not fronted. It's already at the front.

Anonymous

But in the other:

Anonymous

00:43

> The real man is who?

Anonymous

We normally don't leave the interrogative phrase in situ like that. We move it to the front and invert the subject and auxiliary:

Anonymous

Oops, I got my wires crossed, we were talking about embedded clauses :-)

Damkerng T.

:D

I think they're all related anyway, though.

Anonymous

Yeah.

Anonymous

> Who's the real man ＿＿?

Anonymous

00:45

Now we have a gap in predicative complement position, and the subject the real man and auxiliary is have changed places. Is is reduced to 's.

Anonymous

But the resulting sentence looks the same!

Anonymous

So when someone asks Who's the real man?, how do we know whether who is the subject or a fronted complement?

Damkerng T.

I guess we can't really tell.

Anonymous

Yeah, they look the same and have the same meaning, so it doesn't seem like a meaningful question.

Anonymous

But!

Anonymous

00:47

If we look at these in an embedded context, where interrogatives are not marked by subject-auxiliary inversion:

Anonymous

> We'll see [ who's the real man ].

Anonymous

> We'll see [ who the real man is ＿＿ ].

Anonymous

Now there's a difference in form.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

There still might not be any difference in meaning. The basic clause is a specifying copular clause, and in this sort of clause the subject and predicative complement can normally be swapped without a change in meaning.

Anonymous

00:50

This is not true of all copular clauses, of course.

Anonymous

Hmm, I'm close to writing an answer, but I haven't really thought it through all the way.

Anonymous

I don't think I have it quite right.

Anonymous

Oh well, time to look it up :-)

Damkerng T.

I'm still not sure when either alternative is equally possible.

Yay for the looking up!

Anonymous

0

A: The order of words in a clause

If the clause beginning with who, what, etc. is not an actual question (but still expresses an implied inquiry), you can use the standard S-V-O order instead of V-S-O. You only have to use V-S-O order if your sentence ends in a question mark. I'm wondering who that guy is that goes to the pa...

Anonymous

00:54

> I'm wondering who is that guy that goes to the park all the time.

Anonymous

This sentence doesn't sound very good, does it?

Damkerng T.

nods

But at the same time, I'm not sure if I'm wondering who that guy that goes to the park all the time is is a real improvement.

Anonymous

You can shift the that-clause to the end of the sentence.

Anonymous

> I'm wondering who that guy is [that goes to the park all the time].

Damkerng T.

Ahh, yes!

Anonymous

00:58

If we try to follow the logic I set out in chat a few minutes ago, it seems like this sentence should be okay.

Anonymous

But it doesn't sound very good, which means I made a mistake. I have to find it! :-)

Anonymous

By the way, you can't always swap the subject and predicative complement, even in specifying copular clauses.

Anonymous

Some constituents can function as predicative complements but not as subjects, for example bare role noun phrases.

Anonymous

> Who is editor of the magazine?

Anonymous

> *Editor of the magazine is who?

Damkerng T.

01:01

Nice example!

Anonymous

So when we see Who is editor of the magazine? we know that editor of the magazine can't be a subject inverted with the auxiliary is. Who must be the subject.

Anonymous

I'm looking at CGEL p.917.

Anonymous

I have to go for the moment, but what I've written above, along with what CGEL says on p.917, I hope is enough to figure out the right answer to the question. I'm not quite there yet, myself . . .

Anonymous

But I feel like I'm close! :-)

Damkerng T.

You're getting there!

Damkerng T.

01:34

> theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2013/may/10/…

> So we now talk about a printed trouser, a heeled shoe, a nude lip, and no one bats a (smoky) eye – it's as if we've collectively forgotten that, until very recently, there was an obligation to add an S to these nouns.

Interesting

Damkerng T.

02:14

Suddenly, learning Japanese sounds like a good idea!

Anonymous

03:07

@DamkerngT. Contributions from non-native speakers are encouraged: meta.ja.stackoverflow.com/q/1959/4136

CowperKettle

Good morning, Dam, Snails!

@snailboat Sounds okay to me..

Bye, Snails. (0:

I've set a bounty on that question, so please post an answer explaining what the right word order is. (0:

Man_From_India

04:12

@snailboat I couldn't check it yet, but I think the inverted auxiliary is the correct one.

user62015

06:38

Hi!

Anyone there?

Please let me know, which option is correct "some effect vs some effects"?

Anonymous

There isn't enough context to choose.

IͶΔ

@user we have a snail vehicle in charge of that. :) — IͶΔ 35 secs ago

\o all

@user62015 Both are correct. Different contexts of course

@Snail thanks! That explains the difference between [interrogative] and [questions], but

user62015

Thanks

IͶΔ

I don't think people are taking that difference into account while tagging, do you?

@Snail should I make a [minor-clause] tag?

Great.

None of the mods are pingable.

Damkerng T.

08:11

@snailboat Yay!

@IͶΔ Even in the main room?

@CowperKettle Morning! I just noticed the bounty on that question. Nice!

@V.V. Good afternoon!

V.V.

Morning, Damkerng!

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. I hope Snails will give her usually perfect answer!

Dobryi D'en, @V.V.!

V.V.

Hi,CowperKettle!

Mar has a new picture. A nice one.

Damkerng T.

A colorful one! :-)

1

Q: "I am most interested in X." vs "I am mostly interested in X."

I wonder which form(s) are correct amongst the following: "I am most interested in X." "I am mostly interested in X."

phrase-usage

It's interesting that in a comment and an answer, mostly are defined as "often" or "usually", which I don't think is quite right.

(in this case of "I'm mostly interested in X")

Do we measure our interests in frequency?

Hmm... I wonder if this sense of 'interested in' is better conveyed with 'interest' or 'interests'...

V.V.

08:27

To what extent.

IͶΔ

08:42

@DamkerngT. Hmm. :/

Hullo @Violette! Welcome to LO

Damkerng T.

I remember that J.R. was in the main room last week.

IͶΔ

Last week is too far off.

Araucaria

11:33

This looks like one for @StoneyB!

tchrist

12:57

         I: If he will jump, you will not have to.
        II: If he will jump, he can win.
       III: If he will jump, he may win.
        IV: If he will jump, you must follow.
         V: If he will jump, you dare not follow.
        VI: If he will jump, you need not follow.

       VII: If he would escape, let him find help.
      VIII: If he would escape, he will find help.
        IX: If he would escape, he shall find help.
         X: If he would escape, he should find help.
        XI: If he would escape, he would find help.

2

Pick a conditional, any conditional.

However, I cannot promise that there shall never someday be a CCLXIXth conditional.

Damkerng T.

13:09

Thank you, @tchrist!

tchrist

> If he will have been calling her from Tibet, then he will have already escaped.

Damkerng T.

13:57

Sharon Irving: Mel B Hits Golden Buzzer for Soulful Singer - America's Got Talent 2015

►

Somehow I had to replay that sentence several times before I was able to get what she said!

(I thought it was a new word, even!)

V.V.

14:18

"My mother was arriving tomorrow ". What do you think @DamkerngT.?

Damkerng T.

Perfectly fine.

Time words/phrases such as now, today, yesterday, tomorrow, etc. are all relative.

V.V.

Unrealized intention?

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure what you mean by unrealized intention.

It's just like My mother is arriving tomorrow, but said in the past.

It's an odd thing to say, though. But it's perfectly fine in books.

V.V.

As if she was planning to arrive, but something stopped her?

Damkerng T.

Hmm... no, I didn't mean that.

Think "narratives".

V.V.

14:23

Will you explain?

Damkerng T.

Hmm... like in stories.

People can choose to tell their stories in past, present, or future tenses, as they'd like.

V.V.

Past with tomorrow.

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Past with tomorrow, past with today, past forever. :P

V.V.

OK.

The question about past perfect. The comments.

Damkerng T.

> Once upon a time, there was a little boy named Thomas. He lived with his father in a cottage, far away from the city. His mother worked as a housekeeper in a grand villa near the capital. One day, his father told him that his mother was coming home and she was arriving tomorrow. Thomas was really glad. He couldn't wait to see his mother once again.

(I typed it half-way. Thought I should finish it anyway. :-)

Hmm... where is the question, again?

V.V.

14:34

Thanks, Dam, I got it.

The question is Does the place of past perfect...?

Damkerng T.

0

Q: Does the place of past perfect change the meaning of a sentence

And when it was all wrapped and she had paid, she put on her brightest smile and said“Thank you, Sam. Goodnight.” ROALD DAHL'S STORY "LAMB TO THE SLAUGHTER" the sentence means that she paid first, then it was wrapped and she put on her brightest smile If I write : She had paid and when it w...

past-perfect

This one?

V.V.

Yes

See the comments.

Damkerng T.

Yes. I agree with TRomano.

One trap a learner usually falls into is to think that events dictate tense usages, but they don't.

V.V.

What action was the first?

Damkerng T.

The way it's written, the most natural way to read it is to take everything in the written order, like TRomano suggested.

Do not confuse the tenses with the order of events.

She paid before she smiled. The past perfect is about those two events here, not about the sequence of wrapping and paying. — TRomano 4 hours ago

This is how most people would understand the passage.

So where do you place the wrapping while she was smiling or after?Both verbs are past simple — user5577 4 hours ago

This reflects that the learner thinks that tenses would dictate the order of events, which is a misconception.

Once a learner takes this view, it's really hard to change their mind.

V.V.

14:54

Why not past simlple then?

Damkerng T.

Which part? had paid?

V.V.

There should be sense.Yes.

Damkerng T.

It's just natural the way it's written. It's easier that way, instead of writing And when it was all wrapped and she finished her payment, ...

V.V.

OK, I will never understand it. It's as if she made a step back.

Damkerng T.

15:09

Not really. Read TRomano's first comment carefully.

That's basically "it".

V.V.

Thanks, Damkerng.

Damkerng T.

To expand on his comment a bit, the two events are "had paid" and "put on".

No problem.

Man_From_India

15:40

@DamkerngT. most of the time readers don't bother much, and hardly notices :) that happens with me, wben I read a novel I hardly notice on what tense it's written in.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India nods -- Evening!

Man_From_India

16:06

Good evening @DamkerngT.

Araucaria

16:25

6

Q: How to express the concept of "invisible" typos

I am referring to a context that, I feel, many of us are familiar with. After you have written/typed a text you usually check to see if there are mistakes (typos) but, despite a careful re-reading of each line, some typos still escape your attention. It is as if what you see with your eyes were...

expression-requests

@StoneyB, that question up there must be one for you!

Damkerng T.

To err is human, they say.

newyorker.com/tech/frontal-cortex/why-smart-people-are-stupid

CowperKettle

16:52

> In a lake, there is a patch of lily pads. Every day, the patch doubles in size. If it takes 48 days for the patch to cover the entire lake, how long would it take for the patch to cover half of the lake?

I remember this problem. It stumped me during a District Math Olympics in my school years.

A snotty air exhaust. (0:

IͶΔ

17:16

Heh: stackexchange.com/error?aspxerrorpath=/users/216645/…

CowperKettle

17:36

A butterfly discovered in.. Alaska

CowperKettle

18:18

The Japanese call mis-coded characters " 文字化け "

In Russian, we call them "krakozyabry" (кракозябры)

it's when you send a message in one coding system, and the receiving PC presents the message using a different coding system

IͶΔ

That teaches some people a lesson not to have exotic characters in their alphabet.

IͶΔ

18:39

Table flip on twogag!

John Clifford

22:08

Rawr! I exist.

Anonymous

22:19

@CowperKettle arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/…

John Clifford

Hey snailboat!

Anonymous

Hello! :-)

John Clifford

How are you and the snails? :)

Anonymous

The snails seem to be doing well. They sleep during the day.

Anonymous

The new snail is very active. :-)

John Clifford

22:23

Awesome. :D

Are you also very active and nocturnal? XD

Anonymous

I'm somewhat active!

Anonymous

I'm always awake during the day.

Anonymous

Sometimes I'm awake at night, too.

John Clifford

I'm about to go to a 48-hour game jam so I don't expect to be sleeping much until Monday.

Anonymous

I know sleep is really important, but I only managed three hours last night. I feel fine, though.

Anonymous

22:26

I know that even when you feel fine, though, there are measurable impairments on a sleep deficit.

Anonymous

So it's not ideal.

Anonymous

@JohnClifford Sounds fun :-)

John Clifford

It's the third year they've run it, it's been great the past two years and apparently even more people signed up for this one so I'm super excited.

Anonymous

Fo'c's'le has too many apostrophes.

John Clifford

Just say forecastle then. ;)

Anonymous

22:35

It's okay. I never say apostrophes :-)

John Clifford

I can totally pronounce apostrophes.

And parentheses!

I love blowing people's minds who don't know that forecastle and fo'c's'le are the same thing. XD

Anonymous

23:05

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=24693

John Clifford

I think it's admirable that Shakespeare is so passionate about making sure refugees have internet access.

Oh my god, I just initially wrote the comment "Coming from a former call centre employee, I can assure you that strip is more accurate than you'd think."

I come from a former call centre employee apparently!

Goddamn dangling participles.

Oh well, I fixed it now. :D

Anonymous

@JohnClifford Technically, I wouldn't say weigh is an "action" that is "performed" by the subject.

Anonymous

If it were, we could say:

Anonymous

> She's weighing 120 pounds right now.

Anonymous

But we say:

Anonymous

23:19

> She weighs 120 pounds.

Anonymous

Wait, let me pick a less startling number.

Anonymous

There we go, edited. :-)

Anonymous

Weigh here is in the present simple because, semantically, it represents a state rather than an action.

John Clifford

Yeah, I brainfarted a bit there, thanks.

Anonymous

Of course, weigh represents an action when it's used with other meanings:

Anonymous

23:20

> I'm weighing some boxes to figure out how much they'll cost to ship.

John Clifford

Did you edit that part of the answer or was your edit something else?

Anonymous

I added a quote. I was going to edit more, but then I decided to ping you on chat instead. :-)

Anonymous

I didn't want to change the intent of your answer.

John Clifford

Is that the only thing I fluffed on?

I wouldn't have minded.

Actually, would you mind editing that in? I have to check my equipment for the jam tomorrow and get to bed.

Anonymous

Good luck with the jam! :-)

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