Language Overflow

Anonymous

00:00

Let's see, I know you already have the book (but other people might not, which is why I wrote 'highly recommended'), so if you give me a moment I can outline the relevant portions of the book.

Anonymous

It's really a surprisingly dense book.

Damkerng T.

I still haven't really read it! -- sad

Anonymous

Really, we could say most of the book is about how we use language knowledge to distinguish words in context, although there's a lot more covered than just that.

Anonymous

That's using a very general definition of language knowledge, including things like lexical stress, lexical tone, phonotactics, and so on, not just things like collocation knowledge.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. As a very general outline, the book starts with how native speakers (native listeners) hear words particularly and language more generally, and then goes on to how second-language speakers (second-language listeners) do the same things.

Damkerng T.

00:05

nods

In that clip, it's funny that because I heard schoolpod, I adjusted the following syllables and took them as on the. :D

Anonymous

Ah :-)

Anonymous

We give a lot more emphasis to content words than function words in speech. Function words are regularly reduced, and are sometimes even entirely absent phonetically!

Anonymous

And yet we hear them as though they're there anyway, filling in the gaps.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think this is strongly related to the article problems a lot of learners find challenging.

Anonymous

> [I]t seems that reduced speech at least has the potential to be dangerously misleading. Normal natural conversation can find listeners making extensive use of context and other resources to reconstruct and recognize what speakers are saying. Given this, it is not very surprising that listeners adjust the criteria they apply to activated words, requiring less exactitude of acoustic form when they know that speech input may be reduced than when they expect only canonical forms

Anonymous

00:10

(p.225)

Damkerng T.

My idea is, basically, if we can't hear the words (the articles), we stand a less chance to learn how to use them correctly.

Anonymous

When we hear this clip, we know (unconsciously) we have to be prepared to make major adjustments because the pronunciation is quite unclear.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think that what happens for native speakers is that we're exposed to very large volumes of function word use ('function word' being a category that includes articles), including where they're reduced to the point that they're barely audible, so we know they can be reduced, and at the same time, we know a native speaker wouldn't utter a sentence where they were missing, making the sentence ungrammatical and unnatural.

Damkerng T.

I just heard "a-roy a-roy" (อร่อย ๆ ~ delicious, using two of them in a row implies emphasis) being pronounced as "hoy hoy" today!

Anonymous

So we start to recognize those patterns and, when we come to a gap like that, we naturally fill it in, assuming the speaker spoke correctly.

Anonymous

00:13

Non-native listeners have less exposure to this sort of information overall, which is a major reason it's harder to recognize the patterns, confidently reject the versions that are ungrammatical, and fill in the gaps properly.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat nods -- That's a huge advantage.

Anonymous

Of course, non-native listeners can expose themselves to more and more language over time :-)

Anonymous

01:00

I wrote my first answer in a while today. I guess I need to get to 25000 reputation now.

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Kinzle B

01:25

Hi!!

My colleague talked about that poem yesterday!

Is it a coincidence or is there a reviving interest on that poem??

Damkerng T.

02:00

@KinzleB The poem? What (or which) poem are you talking about here?

BTW, hi!

Hisself is considered non-standard, but it does exist historically and in certain Modern English dialects as well. Theirself and theirselves are less common, but do also exist in non-standard dialects. Themself can also be found, but is (at this point) still considered non-standard. — snailboat 3 hours ago

Hah! @snailboat

Hisself?

(That sounds a bit like hissing. :P)

(We surely are Slytherins...)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yep! People grow up today natively saying hisself, and have to be taught that it's considered non-standard and not to say it when standard language is expected.

Anonymous

This is often simplified to "never say it", of course. And some people stop saying things like that entirely, while others learn when non-standard language is appropriate and when it is not.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I guess that makes sense.

(e.g., I still sometimes say "a-yoy" for "a-roy" (อร่อย ~ delicious), more frequently when talking to kids. :P)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I would guess 施氏食狮史 (Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den). I think that's the poem we talked about most recently.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

施氏食獅史

►

To me, some of the shi sounds like shuh, or even shuw.

I think I heard some of sorta shie or shia, too.

Anonymous

02:14

Haha, that was weird :-)

Damkerng T.

For some reason, Mandarin sounds very different from Cantonese to me. I don't know if it's the same for speakers of other languages.

(I got youtube.com/watch?v=JRCKE8JmJXM as the next video.)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think the difference might be more obvious to you as a native speaker of a tonal language, since I think the tones are probably one of the most major differences sound-wise.

Anonymous

Cantonese is also more conservative (closer to Old or Middle Chinese) and has more possible syllables, particularly more codas.

Anonymous

I don't know any Cantonese myself, so I'm probably not in a good position to judge.

Anonymous

Although one of my close friends is a native speaker of Cantonese :-)

Damkerng T.

02:17

I like this demonstration of the six tones: youtube.com/watch?v=C9Hlyfk98N4

@snailboat Ah, so you can ask them any time you got a question in Cantonese.

Anonymous

I can! Although since I'm not actually learning Cantonese, that doesn't happen too often. But sometimes we end up talking about hanzi :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see! :D

Anonymous

Of course, English is the only language I'm actually good at, and even that is in question sometimes. I couldn't believe some of the sentences I managed to string together earlier today :-)

Anonymous

But I'm interested in learning lots of languages.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat You're being humble. I know you're very good at Japanese. :-)

Anonymous

02:22

Sometimes it's interesting to look at Cantonese when you're comparing Chinese morphemes across languages, since it's closer to Middle Chinese, which is what Korean and Japanese borrowed their Sinitic morphemes from.

Anonymous

Unfortunately, I don't have really good resources for most of the Chinese languages.

Anonymous

As you know, Min Chinese is even more conservative.

Damkerng T.

Talking about Japanese, today is the first day I've watched a Japanese channel in a long while. And this is the show I just got! 昼顔 - 平日午後３時の恋人たち

Anonymous

Oh, you have Japanese TV channels? :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It's sort of like a Chinese/Japanese/Korean TV channel. :-)

Anonymous

02:24

I'm not familiar with that show.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, we have one of those!

Damkerng T.

Suddenly, I got a feeling like that "affair" is popular everywhere!

<-- also watching 'The Affair'

Anonymous

They used to play more Japanese shows, but over time the area has become less Japanese and more Chinese, and now they play more Chinese shows.

Damkerng T.

(I shouldn't've left out Korean shows. :-)

Anonymous

We only get a few Korean shows here.

Anonymous

02:26

I feel like there used to be more.

Anonymous

You'd think we'd get more Vietnamese programming, given how many Vietnamese live in the area.

Damkerng T.

Strange. I've got the same feeling.

It looks like Korean shows were more popular that they now are.

@snailboat I'm not sure if I have one. I may have, but I haven't tried it if it's included in my package.

chi1 joh2 sin3 mo4 man5 tai6: youtube.com/…

I don't even know what they mean, but they sound like a nice melody. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. mdbg.net/chindict/…

Damkerng T.

Neat! Thanks!

Anonymous

I'm not sure how much that actually helped, but those are the characters at least :-)

Anonymous

02:33

問題 'problem' is the same

Anonymous

And it's the same in Japanese, too :-) もんだい

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

See, the Cantonese man5tai6 is closer to the Middle Chinese, which is in turn what Japanese mondai is from. So the Cantonese is closer to Japanese than the Mandarin wèntí.

Damkerng T.

Indeed.

Anonymous

Isn't it neat seeing how they line up across languages? Most of those Cantonese readings are quite similar to Japanese on'yomi!

Anonymous

02:37

Often only the vowel or only a consonant is different.

Anonymous

Well, ignoring that the Cantonese has tones.

Damkerng T.

BTW, I'm not sure if you missed this spot in human body in your answer:

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Thank you for the video link, that was neat :-)

Damkerng T.

> okThere is a pair of kidneys in human body.
okThere are a pair of kidneys in human body.

Anonymous

Whoops.

Damkerng T.

02:40

@snailboat I'm glad you like it!

Anonymous

Thanks, @DamkerngT.!

Anonymous

Sadly, I make lots of mistakes.

Damkerng T.

No problem! :D

Anonymous

Luckily I've got you here to point them out :-)

Damkerng T.

Yay! I'm glad I'm around. :-)

Anonymous

02:41

Me too.

Damkerng T.

I'm glad we're around. :-)

For a while I wasn't sure about in human body because some books on Google Books really use it.

Anonymous

See, that sort of influence is why I've got to be more careful. I told myself if I started writing answers, I'd have to try to hold them to a higher standard of quality than before.

Damkerng T.

Huh? I think I typed 'on'. Why is it 'in'?!

Anonymous

I did notice the OP wrote pair without a before it.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Wait, where does on human body come in?

Anonymous

02:43

I guess if you had kidneys around the outside of your body you could say you had them on the human body.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, not that. I meant my "in on Google Books".

Anonymous

Oh! Phew.

Anonymous

I was afraid I missed that, too :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You know, I'm not sure whether it should be in or on. Both sound okay to me.

Anonymous

If you conceptualize Google Books as a website, then I think it's on, because websites are conceptually surfaces, like sheets of paper.

Damkerng T.

02:44

I use both but on different occasions.

Anonymous

But I think if you conceptualize Google Books as a library or corpus of sorts, then it has things in it.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I normally use in when I refer to the whole site as lots of books.

Anonymous

And presumably there's overlap in the situations where the two conceptualizations are possible, as is often the case.

Damkerng T.

So books in Google Books is sort of nonsense to me.

Hmm... actually, we say in the library, too.

Argh! Prepositions are tricky!

BTW, I think you don't use Windows. I don't know if you already know this, but you can try Windows Edge for free in a VM.

Anonymous

Oh, I didn't know that.

Damkerng T.

02:49

looking for the link...

Found it! dev.windows.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/linux

I'm going to try it this weekend.

After I can find some more disk space, I mean! :D

Anonymous

I honestly don't know what to do with disk space anymore. I bought 3 TB of disk a few years ago, and I don't really do anything with most of it.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

You can fill up a good amount of disk space with sample libraries (for writing music).

Damkerng T.

Everything is in the cloud now, I suppose.

Anonymous

But I don't need a really large collection of sample libraries.

Damkerng T.

03:05

@snailboat See, we are quite different in this respect. :D

Damkerng T.

03:16

0

Q: What does "you've seen yesterday" mean?

I'd like to know what"you've seen yesterday" means in this context: If you can talk with your friend who you haven't seen for a long time as if you've seen her/him yesterday, you're best friends. I thought we can't use "have seen" with "yesterday" because this "have" means experience. Th...

I wish our users would use more "real" examples.

It would make a lot of things easier.

> If you can talk with your friend who you haven't seen for a long time as if you've seen her/him yesterday, you're best friends.

Is that even grammatical?

Anonymous

04:09

I just tried to make a dative alternation tag, but I couldn't because tag creation isn't allowed on mobile.

Anonymous

It's just as well, really. People would probably object to it as being incomprehensible technobabble, or on the grounds that dative shouldn't be used to describe English.

Anonymous

Still, could be useful to have a tag for questions that are about dative, benefactive, conative alternations, etc.

Damkerng T.

nods

@snailboat What question did you have in mind?

Anonymous

Even if you don't believe in -ive words.

Anonymous

1

Q: Is the preposition necessary in this sentence? What is the reason why we should use preposition?

When we make passive voice of 'I gave him an apple.', should we use preposition 'to' like 'an apple was given to him by me.' It we should, What is the reason why we should use preposition? please, tell me.

grammar

Damkerng T.

04:13

Just some words in the title would do.

Oh, thanks!

Anonymous

I just don't know another term for that sort of alternation.

Anonymous

Maybe prepositional-alternations would work as a tag.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... between [dative-alternation] and [dative-benefactive], which one would you prefer?

Anonymous

Well, dative refers (rather obliquely, since it's not a case in English) to a to PP, and benefactive to a from PP. Neither word on its own suggests an alternation.

Anonymous

Er.

Anonymous

04:16

Of course I meant to type for :-)

Damkerng T.

I think there is an alternative in the OP's question, also the passive voice!

Okay, I tagged it with [dative-benefactive] and [passive-voice].

Anonymous

So benefactive isn't relevant in this case.

Anonymous

We could have a general tag for verb alternations, though.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Just [alternation]?

Anonymous

Levin outlines quite a few in English Verb Classes and Alternations.

Damkerng T.

04:19

nods -- It's my current reading. :-)

Anonymous

Alternations involving arguments within the VP is too long for a tag, so maybe alternations could work.

Damkerng T.

I just hope that people won't confused it with another tag: alternatives.

Anonymous

I think dative-benefactive doesn't quite get the point across.

Anonymous

Still, we could have a dative alternation tag. That'd have been what I'd have done :-)

Anonymous

If only because I can't think of anything better.

Anonymous

04:22

@DamkerngT. The Levin is really useful :-)

Damkerng T.

Right now I wonder if I should change dative-benefactive to dative-alternation or alternation or alternations.

Anonymous

Well, I think people might get confused by the shorter names like you pointed out, and they can use the longer name to look it up, so it's still the best thing I can think of.

Anonymous

If you just say alternations, people won't be able to look it up.

Damkerng T.

Okay, I'll go with dative-alternation, then.

Anonymous

Yay!

Damkerng T.

04:26

Done! ;-)

Anonymous

Terminological quibbles aside, I think that's the most useful tag name.

Anonymous

The benefactive alternation (for alternation) is different: I baked you a cake. → I baked a cake for you.

Anonymous

It's different in that it uses for rather than to, and that a different class of verbs participates in it.

Anonymous

Levin has the details like always :-)

Anonymous

I suppose the general class is sometimes given the label "transitive alternations". That might be confusing as a tag name, though.

Damkerng T.

04:34

@snailboat :-)

@snailboat Apparently, we've got a lot of kinds of alternations.

Anonymous

Japanese has a bunch of alternations too, but they're usually given names that contrast the two things in alternation.

Anonymous

For example, the ガ/ノ交替 is the ga-no alternation; either particle can, under certain circumstances, mark a subject in a relative clause.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think Thai doesn't have many alternations. Actually, I can't come up with one!

Anonymous

We can also call it the nominative-genitive alternation.

Anonymous

In general I like this sort of name, telling you which two things are in alternation.

Anonymous

04:38

@DamkerngT. Well, it would be rare for a native speaker who hasn't studied linguistics to be able to list alternations in their own language :-)

CowperKettle

@snailboat Oh, so it's 'compound adjectives' after all! Thanks, Snails!

Damkerng T.

It may have alternations of different kinds, but not benefactive ones.

CowperKettle

Good morning!

Anonymous

Thai has apparently been accused of having a causative-inchoative alternation.

CowperKettle

@snailboat Really? Thank you!

Anonymous

04:42

@DamkerngT. Oh, yes, they're highly language-specific. Japanese, for example, doesn't have anything like most of the alternations Levin describes, though there is a locative alternation

Anonymous

And in fact it's much like the spray–load alternation.

Anonymous

@CowperKettle You're a poet at heart, so it seems very fitting :-)

Anonymous

English doesn't have a nominative–genitive alternation like the one in intransitive Japanese relative clauses.

Anonymous

If we used the ga–no style of naming, we could do away with the fancy names and call the English ones the to alternation, for alternation, at alternation, and so on.

Anonymous

Then no one would have to remember that dative is super double secret linguist code for a to PP.

Damkerng T.

04:48

@snailboat Yes! I think it has!

@snailboat It's probably easier for most everyone to remember them. :-)

Anonymous

But if you say to alternation, it isn't easy to look up like if you say dative alternation :-( The latter is largely used in the literature, not the former.

Anonymous

I don't have a solution to this problem that would satisfy everyone.

Anonymous

I talked for a little while about some of my nomenclature problems in the case of Japanese in Japanese.SE chat earlier.

Anonymous

Labeling things well is so hard!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Indeed!

No wonder we have lots of nouns!

Anonymous

04:54

Nomen est too hard :-(

Damkerng T.

I guess that most of words in a language are nouns.

Anonymous

That is usually the case.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Not sure if it's Spanish or French, but I think I get you!

Anonymous

'Noun' is usually the clearest example of an open class.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I just broke Nomen est omen in half. It's in need of repair.

Anonymous

04:56

Which classes are open or closed (which is anyway not a true dichotomy) is language-specific, though.

Anonymous

Our words nominal and noun go back to Latin nomen 'name', as in the famous Latin proverb nom, nom, nom (Cookius Monsterus)

Anonymous

It might be the case that I've been awake too long

Anonymous

I'll apologize to Latin at a later date

Anonymous

@CowperKettle I turned my chat messages into a comment :-)

Anonymous

1

Q: What does "you've seen yesterday" mean?

I'd like to know what"you've seen yesterday" means in this context: If you can talk with your friend who you haven't seen for a long time as if you've seen her/him yesterday, you're best friends. I thought we can't use "have seen" with "yesterday" because this "have" means experience. Th...

meaning grammar meaning-in-context usage

Anonymous

05:06

Oh, there's an E in the icon now!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Eh?

Anonymous

This sentence seems okay to me, but I'm not a fan of her/him as a gender neutral pronoun (really, coordination of pronouns).

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

Well, I see an E in the icon, not just the orange thingy by itself, in the oneboxed question.

Damkerng T.

Even with "as if you've seen her/him yesterday"?

Anonymous

05:08

I thought it sounded okay in context. Does it sound bad to you?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It still is the orange thingy in a circle for me.

Though the favicon of the main site is now the orange thingy on its own, no circle.

Anonymous

I'm typing this from my phone right now. I wonder if it has to do with being on the mobile interface or not.

Anonymous

Hey, I just remembered we have French nom in English.

Anonymous

nom de guerre, nom de plume

Anonymous

Do we have any other noms from French?

Anonymous

05:12

Do we have nom de scène?

Damkerng T.

Not sure. :-)

Anonymous

I guess not. All the search results were in French.

Anonymous

French.SE doesn't have a question about nom de plume/guerre yet.

Anonymous

Maybe I should ask!

Damkerng T.

You should!

Mrstupid

07:19

hi

I got a questio

Why we use singular verb here?

"Movies that GIVES you knowledge"

Movies is plural so it should be "GIVE"

no?

@dam

@Catija

CowperKettle

08:13

> Species X is no longer exist due to environment factors and "human annoyance(s)".

0

Q: What is word for animal who is annoyed by human?

When human annoy animals, can I say it as "human annoyance(s)" to animals? Species X is no longer exist due to environment factors and "human annoyance(s)".

word-request

Dinosaurs were probably annoyed out of existense by man.

Damkerng T.

11:01

@CowperKettle They could file an animal harassment lawsuit against us!

@Mrstupid I agree. It should be Movies that give ...

Damkerng T.

13:11

> As a generic word, beer includes every style of fermented malt beverage, including ales and lagers and all the individual and hybrid styles that fall under those headings. Within the realm of major beer categories, you find some truly special brews, such as real ale, barrel-aged and wood-aged beer, extreme beer, organic beer, gluten-free beer, and kosher beer. These kinds of beers don’t represent new or different beer styles, per se; rather, they represent different ways of making and presenting beer.

I have a feeling that "These kinds of beers" could be a typo.

Considering that in another paragraph after that, they wrote:

> Ales are the ancient types of beer that date back to antiquity; lager beers are relatively new (only several hundred years old).

Hmm...

The author seems to switch between beer and beers almost freely.

> In addition to the two major beer classifications (ales and lagers), a third beer classification that’s an amalgam (more or less) of the first two is hybrid beer. Hybrid beers cross over ale and lager style guidelines. A beer fermented at cold temperatures, using an ale yeast, is an example of a hybrid; likewise for a beer that’s warm fermented, using lager yeast.

> Specialty beers, on the other hand, are practically limitless. This unofficial style of beer covers a very wide range of brews that are hard to define, much less regulate. Typically, specialty beers are brewed to a classic style (such as Porter or Weizenbier) but with some new flavor added; some are made from unusual foods that are fermented. Guidelines are useless, and brewing anarchy rules the brewhouse. The rules-be-damned attitude is what makes specialty beers so fun to brew and drink.

I'm not sure which beer is which beer (or beers!).

How should I conceptualize each instance of "beer"s used in the above passages?!

> Within the realm of major beer categories, you find some truly special brews, such as real ale, barrel-aged and wood-aged beer, extreme beer, organic beer, gluten-free beer, and kosher beer. -- These "beer"s are the substance that is called 'beer', I think.

> These kinds of beers don’t represent new or different beer styles, per se; rather, they represent different ways of making and presenting beer. -- The first "beers" seems to be "kinds of beer"; while the last "beer" is the liquid that's called "beer", I think.

> Ales are the ancient types of beer that date back to antiquity; lager beers are relatively new (only several hundred years old). -- The first "beer" seems to be "beer substance", but why did they use 'kinds of beers' in the last paragraph but 'types of beer' here? The second "beers" seems to be "types/kinds of beer", so the author pluralized it.

> In addition to the two major beer classifications (ales and lagers), a third beer classification that’s an amalgam (more or less) of the first two is hybrid beer. Hybrid beers cross over ale and lager style guidelines. -- Something interesting is going on here. At first, it seems like the italicized is for "use-mention distinction", but then again it doesn't seem so because they italicized 'Specialty beers' in the next paragraph (note that it's 'Specialty beers are' not 'is').

> (which makes "Hybrid beers" in the second sentence looks a little odd to me.)

> A beer fermented at cold temperatures, using an ale yeast, is an example of a hybrid; likewise for a beer that’s warm fermented, using lager yeast. -- Both "beer"s seem like a "type/kind of beer" here.

(And at this point, I lost my interest in doing further analysis. Lazy me!)

(The only question remains for me is whether or not their uses of countable and uncountable 'beer' alternately like they do are good, and whether their writing style is good or not. -- Wait, that's two questions, not one!)

BTW...

Feel free to replace 'beer' with 'milk', or 'coffee', or 'tea', if you're not a beer person.

lekon chekon

13:48

hey

Damkerng T.

14:14

Hi!

lekon chekon

i have a lot of sentences that i'm curious about.

Should i start firing? :3

Damkerng T.

:3

;-)

lekon chekon

The first one.

I couldn't study physics all year because i didn't have a tutor who'd show me how things work

I couldn't study physics all year because i didn't have a tutor who'd show me how things worked.

both the sentences mean the same thing, right?

Damkerng T.

Either should work. Yes.

lekon chekon

The second one just keeps the tenses in check.

am i right?

Damkerng T.

14:24

The ~~latter~~ former is more natural, imho.

lekon chekon

Okay.

I have a lot more where that came from.

It's way past the time i usually go for a jog at.

It's way past the time i usually go for a jog.

It's way past the time when i usually go for a jog.

Are all the above sentences grammatically correct? What's the difference in their meaning, if there's any.

Has he tried to flirt with you yet? I'd be surprised if he hadn't.

Has he tried to flirt with you yet? I'd be surprised if he hasn't.
Is the first one more appropriate than the second? In both sentences, I'm talking about present time.

Is there a difference between the two sentences?

i'll come back later to check your answers to my questions.

I'll be back in an hour.

Man_From_India

@lekonchekon if you have problem understanding them, I would recommend that you ask them in the main site. I mean write a question.

It seems like you have problem with relative clause and relative pronoun.

V.V.

Hi, everyone!

Man_From_India

14:45

Hi

CowperKettle

Hi, @V.V., @Man_From_India!

V.V.

Hi, Copper Kettle!

IͶΔ

15:22

Comes in, sees a bunch of obsolete "hi"s.

Why am I not surprised?

Catija

Because life is weird... and seriously... it's really blue in here now.

IͶΔ

It gives me a beach-y feeling.

Catija

Yeah.

IͶΔ

How's stuff going on M&TV?

Still struggling with the ID pests?

Catija

Fine... and yes. I don't go in their chat much. I started a new job so I'm not around much and it seems like the only people there most of the time are Nap and steeler... and they're like internet in love with each other and ignore the fact that anyone else is there... they star stuff each other say all the time, even if it's stupid, like just a smiley.

IͶΔ

15:28

O_o

We all seem to internet in love with @Snail.

I'm starring her next smiley, mark my words.

Esp. if it's the creepy ":-)".

Catija

Yeah, but that's different... it's respect for her... this is like "I'm going to visit you in Germany and we're going to do X, Y, and Z..." And we were chatting about all getting together one time... which I was only half serious about and Nap was like "There's only one person I would take the time to go and see"... meaning Steeler... And I called him a wet blanket for it.

IͶΔ

Huh that's called romance. :P

Catija

Yeah, but it's all they do now.

It gets old when all you ever see in there is them chatting with each other.

CowperKettle

16:19

> One of my favorite methods of expanding my knowledge of a language is to pick up a book and analyse the hell out of it, by glossing and making notes and trying my best to understand and absorb everything, and listening to each chapter from the audiobook (if available) several times before going on to the next, repeating after the narrator and trying to exactly copy the pronunciation and accent.

> As a self-educating learner of English, I have carried out the above on a couple contemporary works of English literature, and have benefited a great deal from it. But unfortunately, my time is …

0

Q: Can studying older material help an advanced learner to understand and use contemporary English better?

One of my favorite methods of expanding my knowledge of a language is to pick up a book and analyse the hell out of it, by glossing and making notes and trying my best to understand and absorb everything, and listening to each chapter from the audiobook (if available) several times before going o...

teaching

With such a meticulous method, little wonder the time gets limited. (0:

Catija

@CowperKettle Why would someone want to study Shakespeare if all they want to do is learn contemporary English?

CowperKettle

@Catija His English sound well-nigh ideal. So why not? Contemporary English is based on the less contemporary English.

I had pleasure reading bits and pieces of Shakespeare and Hudibras and whatnot.

Catija

Because we don't use that sort of syntax any more.

Anyway, answers should be applicable to all readers... and not all may be as good with English as he is.

IͶΔ

@CowperKettle But what would they achieve and learn about cont English if they read Early modern?

CowperKettle

According to his account, he's a teacher.. If he's already confident in teaching, why not?

IͶΔ

16:25

I'm not saying not to.

Catija

@CowperKettle His account says "aspiring teacher"... so, not a teacher yet.

CowperKettle

@IͶΔ They would be able to share a bit or two of Shakespeare with the more advanced pupils.

mikeonly

Hi. I don't want to post it as a separate question, because it's still not well-formated in my head. Though, I have problem with choosing prepositions between “with” and “of” as in:
A particle of/with medium size,
a material of/with uniform structure

CowperKettle

@Catija Ah, then maybe he needs to concentrate on teaching techniques. (0:

mikeonly

Could you please suggest what rule to look for?

IͶΔ

16:26

It won't help speak the cont English @Cowper.

I'm not saying it's bad or not beneficial in any way.

@mikeonly Both are correct AFAIK. Welcome to LO!

CowperKettle

@IͶΔ Some pupil may ask a question that would be better explainable by quoting some old passage: "the way you just spoke was possible in AD 1600, but not now"

@mikeonly I'd say "a particle of medium size", "a uniformly structured material".

IͶΔ

@CowperKettle And how would that exactly help? It's just a general piece of info.

CowperKettle

4

Q: "Products of unique structure" vs. "Products of _a_ unique structure"

In 3D printing, successive layers of material are applied under computer control in order to create a particular shape. This technology allows us to make products of a unique internal and external structure. Should there be a here? I wrote the text without the article, but a native speaker...

articles indefinite-article

@mikeonly - I once asked a question about "structure" (quoted above)

I think it should read "products with a unique..." — TRomano Oct 28 '15 at 17:51

mikeonly

@CowperKettle Thanks, I'll have a look.

@IͶΔ Thanks!

CowperKettle

@IͶΔ That might spark more interest in the pupil.

> O no; it is an ever-fixed mark,
That looks on tempests, and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.

IͶΔ

16:30

The fact that bananas have potassium doesn't relate to me if I don't eat bananas. The fact that a construction worked in 1600 doesn't relate to me if I'm not studying linguistics.

@CowperKettle Whoa. Well, also being kind-hearted encourages the learner.

So we should be kind. But how's that related to the material the learner's gotta study?

CowperKettle

For instance, Shakespeare has an interesting antique use of she as a non-referring pronoun.

Maybe a pupil will use it in that way by mistake, and you'd be able to say: no, that way it was spoken in 1600. (0:

And quote Shakespeare. The pupil might get interested.

IͶΔ

Whatever man

You're just gonna keep saying that

┬─┬ ノ( ^_^ノ)

CowperKettle

I recalled: future teachers of Russian are obligated to learn ancient Russian, and pore over some ancient Russian texts.

Just to deepen their understanding.

To understand how the language changed.

IͶΔ

First off, Russian != English

Second, how does it do that?

It's like how I study LC at school.

It helps nothing.

CowperKettle

LC? Latent Chemistry?

IͶΔ

16:37

Languish Crap

Lit Crit

CowperKettle

Liliputian Cosmogony?

IͶΔ

Lit Crit dammit

CowperKettle

Oh, I hated reading critiques of classic literature.

IͶΔ

But, but, but it deepens your understanding!

CowperKettle

It might have...

Catija

16:40

The other problem... without guidance, it can be difficult to get the full meaning of Shakespeare... you might get the surface meaning but...

There are so many layers to is writing.

I mean... look at this page: nfs.sparknotes.com/twelfthnight/page_18.html

> (taking his hand) Now, sir, thought is free. I pray you, bring your hand to the buttery-bar and let it drink.

Their "translation":

> (taking his hand) A girl’s got a right to her opinions. Take your hand to a bar and put a drink in it.

CowperKettle

I like this: shakespeare navigators

Catija

But... what this stupid teen-based site doesn't say is that "buttery bar" means her breasts... the place where milk comes from...

Man_From_India

Good evening @CowperKettle

Good morning @Catija

CowperKettle

@Man_From_India - good evening!

Catija

She takes his hand, puts it on her breast and tells him to "drink"... meaning to get it on with her.

... But Sir Andrew is a dense idiot and doesn't "get" what her meaning is...

CowperKettle

16:43

(0:

Catija

> Maria teases the impotent Sir Andrew by placing his hands on her breasts (in medieval slang, "buttery-bar" referred to a woman's breasts) knowing fully well that he is incapable of any sexual advances and insults him by telling him to go get himself a drink at the "buttery-bar"of the house.

enotes.com/homework-help/what-buttery-bar-85917

CowperKettle

> "buttery-bar" The door to the buttery was often split horizontally, with a shelf (the buttery-bar) attached to the top of the bottom part, and the person who was tapping the butts in the buttery would put the full cups on the buttery-bar for the drinkers.

IͶΔ

@Catija Haha that translation is almost as good as GM.

Catija

@IͶΔ GM?

IͶΔ

Google Mistranslate

Catija

16:48

Ah.

lekon chekon

@Man_From_India I did post them on the main site.
I wasn't satisfied with the answers i got.

Man_From_India

Link it please

lekon chekon

Sure.
Give me a minute.

0

Q: Sentence choices, and what difference they make

Has he tried to flirt with you yet? I'd be surprised if he hadn't. Has he tried to flirt with you yet? I'd be surprised if he hasn't. Is the first one more appropriate than the second? In both sentences, I'm talking about present time. Is there a difference between the two sentenc...

sentence-construction sentence-choice

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