Language Overflow

Anonymous

00:42

@rogermue, is there a board meeting that I missed? — Octopus 1 min ago

Damkerng T.

> I think there is a reason certainly. Don't say that it is a custom. There is no sentence that has no reason.

Hmm...

Because #adult?

Anonymous

I don't understand.

Damkerng T.

I don't think that every sentence (I think he meant the structure of a sentence) has a good reason behind it.

Anonymous

Oh, right, it's much like with lexical properties. You can't predict that says has an irregular third person singular present form, you just have to learn that as a property of the word.

Damkerng T.

Most adult learners seem to come to another language, a second language, with a set of assumptions. The most important one is probably: everything in this new language that I'm learning is logical and can be explained by rules.

Anonymous

00:52

Well, in this case "much like" isn't quite right, because the OP's example is about a lexical property.

Anonymous

Maybe this is a personal failing, but I find that I'm much less likely to want to answer a question if it has a highly upvoted answer already, even if that answer doesn't satisfy me.

Anonymous

I wonder to what extent that can be characterized as my own failing versus a flaw in the design of the system.

Damkerng T.

For a learner who still writes "please, somebody tell me the reason", I think FumbleFinders' advice is really good.

Just icky would probably do! :) Seriously, I don't disagree with a single word you've said above, but I was kinda hoping my comment might prompt you to dig a little deeper (and by implication I'm kinda hoping there actually is some "buried treasure" hereabouts). I'm specifically influenced by OP's Don't say that it is a custom. There is no sentence that has no reason. It would be nice if we could come up with an answer involving some principle a bit more generic than That's just how this verb works. Don't try to understand why, all you can do is learn it. — FumbleFingers 3 hours ago

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think if we come up with the right definition of rule, it's not entirely unreasonable. There may be no why to it, but sometimes we describe the whats as though they were whys.

Damkerng T.

I mean, "That's just how this verb works. Don't try to understand why, all you can do is learn it." is precisely what he needs, IMHO.

@snailboat nods -- Most of whats (i.e., baby rules) are quite useful.

Anonymous

00:56

We could talk about raising, control, and ECM verbs.

Damkerng T.

And you lost me at "control". :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, describing the whats need not be done inaccurately…

Anonymous

We can come up with non-baby rules if we try :-)

Damkerng T.

That would be great!

Anonymous

It's just that the closer you get to "accurate", the longer your explanation gets.

Damkerng T.

00:58

nods -- Which is probably why most teachers start with baby rules.

Anonymous

Even CGEL in all its doorstopness isn't a complete and accurate description of the language.

Damkerng T.

(At the risk of having their students stuck with those rules.)

@snailboat Sad and true at the same time!

Anonymous

And the language is a bit fuzzy around the edges anyway.

Anonymous

So maybe a little inaccuracy is unavoidable simply because language can't be pinned down 100% precisely. But we can be more precise than what a lot of "baby rules" would suggest, is all I really wanted to say :-)

Damkerng T.

I hope someone can come up with these very good rules soon!

Anonymous

01:01

@DamkerngT. Raising and control are from generative grammar, but the terms are adopted by analogy in CGEL, though they don't use them in a generative sense.

Anonymous

ECM (exceptional case marking) is, I think, not a term adopted by CGEL

Anonymous

It would be rather uncharacteristic of them to talk about case marking on objects which are mostly not marked for case! :-)

Damkerng T.

You sure know how they think better than me.

Anonymous

But even though CGEL isn't a formal or generative grammar in any sense, they owe a lot to generative linguistics, and some of this shows through in the terminology they use.

Damkerng T.

> The distinction between raising-to-object and control predicates is identified using the there-insertion diagnostic. Expletive there can appear as the object (or subject) of raising predicates, but it cannot appear as the object of control predicates.

So, the raising-control distinction is only for this special case of there?

> a. Sam judges there to be a problem.
b. *Sam asked there to be a problem.

(Wikipedia)

Anonymous

01:08

There are cookies on the table. I want there to be cookies on the table.

Damkerng T.

I suppose that it's natural, though it doesn't sound familiar to me at all.

Anonymous

*I hope there to be cookies on the table.

Anonymous

I hope there are cookies on the table.

Damkerng T.

"I want him to do it." -- "*I hope him to do it."

Anonymous

!I want there are cookies on the table.

Damkerng T.

01:11

Somehow I think I want there be cookies on the table is okay!

(Don't ask me why!)

Anonymous

I hope he does it. !I want he does it.

Anonymous

The exclamation point here means the utterance is non-standard.

Anonymous

I could just use a star and say it means "ungrammatical in Standard English."

Damkerng T.

About 750 samples of want there to be in Google Books.

Anonymous

*I want there be cookies is ungrammatical, but it reminds me of here be dragons.

Damkerng T.

01:14

@snailboat I guess I think it's okay by analogy, probably something similar to Here/There be/lie/...

Anonymous

She is safe. I want her to be safe. I want for her to be safe.

Anonymous

I am safe. I want to be safe.

Anonymous

What kind of verb is want? What kind of verb is hope?

Anonymous

She is safe. I hope (that) she's safe.

Anonymous

I am safe. I hope (that) I'm safe.

Anonymous

01:22

@DamkerngT. Though here be dragons and the like are ungrammatical. But we have them in our lexicon anyway, not as grammatical combinations of words but as pre-formed multi-word units. We don't think about the grammar that makes them up, so we don't need to judge their grammaticality.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I guess a native speaker who is asked this question the first time would have no idea how to answer that!

Anonymous

Well, we can take a survey of constructions each verb appears in, then look to see if they behave like any other verbs.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

If we find a pattern, we can give the group a name! :-)

Damkerng T.

I suppose so!

Anonymous

01:24

Of course, other people have already done that sort of grunt work for us.

Anonymous

The important thing is the range of usage each word has. The label is unimportant.

Daniel Rch.

Hi guys, This morning I was reading a newspaper and I have some doubts, please help .
1)Is this a phrasal verb?
walk past
context: They walked past them onto the scenario.
2)What does trending means?
context: And that´s what´s trending today
means news?

Damkerng T.

1) I don't think so. 2) something trending is something that's in the trend on popular social networks.

Anonymous

If something is trending, everyone is talking about it right now. Buzz is a related word.

Damkerng T.

I wonder when trending was first used.

Argh! It's not even in Oxford/Google dictionary (I can't remember its full name).

Anonymous

01:33

@DanielRch. I'm not entirely sure how the scenario can be walked onto without further context, but we can tell walk past isn't a phrasal verb (verb-particle idiom) because past can't be moved past the object.

Anonymous

Past must be a regular preposition.

Damkerng T.

Oh, it is. They just put it under trend.

Daniel Rch.

"Trending" appears at the end of the news story

Damkerng T.

> 2. (of a topic) be the subject of many posts on a social media website within a short period of time.
"I've just taken a quick look at what's trending on Twitter right now"

Anonymous

Oh, that's a good definition!

Anonymous

01:36

So I can't really help with the walk past sentence without further context, but I wouldn't call it a phrasal verb.

Anonymous

Depending on the context, it could be used figuratively.

Daniel Rch.

ok, one a minute

i´m going to the news

"Walk past" appeared in this context:

"Then they introduced businessman Donald Trump. But, he did not come out onto the stage, either. So for a few minutes, the camera showed Carson and Trump standing together in the hallway. The rest of the candidates looked confused as they walked past them onto the stage."

Damkerng T.

It looks like a normal walked and a normal past.

Anonymous

Oh! It wasn't scenario, it was stage. Now the sentence makes sense.

Daniel Rch.

thanks, see you later

Damkerng T.

01:44

See you around!

LOL -- Arthur C. Clarke becomes "other 4 ขา" ("other 4 [leg]") on Google voice input.

I was reading an article in Thai to it, so I guess that made it more difficult for the voice input.

Anonymous

Oh! The voice input on my phone only works in whatever language I'm currently using.

Damkerng T.

I think it accepts only one language on iOS. It can handle multiple languages (funnily sometimes :-) on Android.

Anonymous

Neat!

Damkerng T.

01:59

For some unknown reason, sometimes it decides to re-recognize everything I said in Thai (after 40-50 words!) as if I said it in English!

Crazy Ninja

04:05

hi

Damkerng T.

Hi!

Crazy Ninja

I need some help

I was writing a post about What is a class

class = programming term

Damkerng T.

Uh-huh?

Crazy Ninja

I want to express my idea in a very simplistic way

This is what I have wrote so far.

Class is a blueprint. It only contains a structure.
For E.g.: House is a real world Object. At the beginning house was not physically available. What we only had was a Blueprint.
<<image of the blueprint>>
So, we have started to construct our house according to the plan (blueprint). So, that is how we were able to build a house which was drawn according to our requirements. It was exactly according to the blueprint what we had.
Class is analogous to a Blueprint. We can have variables and methods. Variables will contain data. Methods will define behaviors.

Damkerng T.

For e.g.,

At the beginning, house was ...

Hmm... was not physically available is weird.

Crazy Ninja

04:18

how should it be replaced?

Damkerng T.

It's not about the language (i.e., English), it's about your way of thinking.

You seem to mix up the real world stuff with conceptualized stuff in your explanation.

Crazy Ninja

... was only a diagram

@DamkerngT. that's why i need some help to improve my writing skills from you

Damkerng T.

You can turn everything into the present simple tense.

It'd flow more naturally, IMHO.

If you try that, you'll see that your writing is more powerful.

Crazy Ninja

let me try

Damkerng T.

> Class is analogous to Blueprint. We can have variables and methods. Variables contain data. Methods define behaviors.

I think you have a few choices: Class is analogous to Blueprint, A Class is analogous to a Blueprint, Classes are analogous to blueprints.

If you choose to capitalize them, better capitalize all of them, not just some of them.

Judging from the rest of your text, I think Classes are like blueprints is probably the best choice.

If you want to raise like to analogous to, I'd say that you have to raise the formality in the rest of your text as well.

Crazy Ninja

04:28

how about this one?

@DamkerngT.

Class is a blueprint. It only contains a structure.
For E.g.: House is a real world tangible Object. Before we construct a house, usually we draw a sketch how the structure would looks like. Because we need to ensure that all our requirements will not be missed out. This sketch is called as the Blueprint of the house.
<<image of a blueprint>>
So, we start to construct our house according to the blueprint. Designing of rooms, garden, kitchen etc is according to the blueprint. If we follow the same blueprint to build a second house in another country, it will also be exactly the same.

Damkerng T.

When I read It only contains a structure, I immediately ask myself, "of what?"

(also For e.g.,)

This sketch is called as the Blueprint of the house.

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. yes. that should be corrected

Damkerng T.

So, we start by constructing our house according to the blueprint, building rooms, kitchen, garden, etc., in according to the blueprint.

Crazy Ninja

alright

Damkerng T.

If we ~~follow~~ use the same blueprint to build a second house ~~in another country~~, ~~it will also be~~ the second house will be exactly the same as the first house.

Crazy Ninja

04:33

you caught it. ~~follow~~

Damkerng T.

Variables contain ~~only~~ data. -- I think it's better without only.

If I were to write that, I might write the last two sentences as: Variables hold data. Methods define behaviors.

See the power of "simple"?

Crazy Ninja

^_^

Thank you. Now the english sounds okay to me

Damkerng T.

It can still be improved even further, but I think it's okay now. :D

You're welcome!

Crazy Ninja

:)

Damkerng T.

0

Q: What is the definition of "a fierce competitor"?

I have a question about this sentence. "I’m a fierce competitor." I've got a rough idea of "a fierce competitor". However, I don't understand it is used as good meaning, like "passionate competitor", or used as bad meaning, like "competitor of violent temper". I checked the definition of "fie...

definition

One common problem among learners is that we try to put everything in a box. One thing, one box, and one box alone.

This question asks whether a fierce competitor has any good or bad connotation.

I wonder what they'll think when they hear stuff like, "Do you think blah-blah-blah?" "Yes and no."

(Huh! How can one thing be yes and no at the same time?! :-)

In my first language, there is a saying, ภาษาดิ้นได้ ("language can dance"). -- ดิ้น ~ dance, convulse, twitch, flex, adapt

Question of the day: How often does a lit-crit student turn out to be a bestseller writer?

(A similar question: How many food critics can cook as good as a cook or a chef?)

Crazy Ninja

05:15

@DamkerngT. scmlibrary.com/sc/?p=11

V.V.

06:12

@DamkerngT., what beautiful letters. They are like embroidery.

Damkerng T.

@V.V. Thanks!

V.V.

Amazing! I have never seen them before.

Crazy Ninja

It has been a hectic week for the developers

is this usage of hectic is correct?

V.V.

I think it is.(nonnative )much work, you mean

Crazy Ninja

@V.V. yes

V.V.

06:26

A hectic business schedule, extremely busy

Anonymous

This is new to me: hollow leg

V.V.

06:37

Space for a drink.

CopperKettle

@snailboat imaginative!

"Get that addict!"

> In some areas of the US, especially the South Midland, weather that is cold or otherwise disagreeable is CRIMPY.

I forgot that expression from the Dictionary of Regional English when you admit that you've been boozing.

It is starred somewhere in the chat.

Found it: acknowledge the corn

> Oops, you've found out about my hollow leg, so I'd better acknowledge the corn.

A nightmare for a translator.

@DamkerngT. How often does a tippler becomes a renowned vine grape farmer.

This is like an excerpt from a horror movie:

паук с клешнями

►

I never knew there were spiders with claws.

Amblypygi

Amblypygi is an order of arachnid chelicerate arthropods. Amblypygids are also known as whip spiders and tailless whip scorpions (not to be confused with whip scorpions and vinegaroons that belong to the related order Thelyphonida). The name "amblypygid" means "blunt rump", a reference to a lack of the flagellum ("tail") that is otherwise seen in whip scorpions. They are harmless to humans. Amblypygids possess no silk glands or venomous fangs. They rarely bite if threatened, but can grab fingers with pedipalps, resulting in thorn-like puncture injury. By 2003, 5 families, 17 genera and around 155...

I wonder why that spider does not just run.

Or "I wonder why doesn't that spider just run"?

It was nice chatting with y'all, BBL! (0:

Damkerng T.

10:47

@snailboat It's "copper neck" (คอทองแดง) in Thai!

@CopperKettle Couldn't agree more!

Hmm... How often does a tippler becomes a renowned vine grape farmer? Pretty rare, I suppose.

Hello, guys! And bye! (Just a quick drop in.) See y'all later.

CopperKettle

11:04

@DamkerngT. That's strange! A Thai man is supposed to hide the booze in his neck?

@DamkerngT. I thought you would say something along the lines of "Oh, nothing much, I have a dozen of these in my house" (0:

Oh, I was too hasty in reading it. It's an "imaginary" reservoir allowing to "show no effects" of booze.

> Imaginary reservoir for one who overindulges in liquor, food, etc. without showing signs of effect.

Then "copper neck" is a good simile.

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle I guess I have a few spiders in my house, but not like that.

IͶΔ

@CopperKettle O_O

CopperKettle

11:28

@DamkerngT. Good.

Damkerng T.

Totally agree!

V.V.

11:52

No luck! Whenever I find the question interesting it is immediately closed!

CopperKettle

@V.V. What question did you find interesting?

0

Q: Using an indefinite article with word "part"

Please. can you advise me if I should say "as part of" or "as a part of"? Thanks

zero-article

This one, probably. I feel that there must be a duplicate of it.

5

Q: Difference between 'part' and 'a part'?

This question may seem to be very simple, but something I get confused whenever I want to speak. I read a book entitled "re-start your English", and saw a sentence. This is a leg. It is part of your body. This is a neck. It is 'a' part of your body. Why didn't they use 'a' in the firs...

grammar

16

Q: "As part of" versus "as a part of"

When should I use "as part of", and when "as a part of"?

word-choice grammaticality articles indefinite-article part-vs-a-part

3

Q: a part vs. part

part (mass noun) is close to "some", it means some but not all thing. a part (countable) is a separate piece of something that you can combine with other pieces. It has been always a problem for me to choose the right one. For example: I think there's always a part of you that doubts what ...

articles part-vs-a-part

3

Q: "That's just part of it" vs "that's just a part of it"

Which version is more correct/common? Example: Speaker A: Why did you leave the party? Because some guys made fun of you? Speaker B: Just (a) part of it. Speaker A: What's the other?

expressions idioms

V.V.

12:28

Anyway, the OP got their answer.

Damkerng T.

13:22

0

Q: The use of "stand emphasizing"

I asked a duplicated question in another SE site. A native speaker left the following comment: It is somewhat of a duplicate, but the answer to this question, while given in the accepted answer to the other question, is just barely mentioned and could stand emphasizing in that or another ...

phrase-usage parsing

The mentioning of stand corrected makes me think why stand correct isn't used as often as stand corrected.

IͶΔ

15:37

I think my biggest typo is typing "definition" as "defintion".

CopperKettle

15:58

Today is 101st birthday of a Russian movie actor who was born in 1915, and starred in his first movie in 1938, and his most recent movie, in 2015.

Vladimir Zeldin

Vladimir Mikhailovich Zeldin (Russian: Влади́мир Миха́йлович Зе́льдин; born February 10, 1915) is a Russian theatre and cinema actor and a centenarian. Zeldin was born in the town of Kozlov (now Michurinsk). In 1935 he graduated from the theatre college at the Mossovet Theatre and became its actor. For over 60 years he has been working in the Russian Army Theatre, Moscow. Zeldin became an all-Union celebrity in 1941 starring in the comedy Svinarka i pastukh. His other most famous works as a film actor include Skazanie o zemle sibirskoy (1947), Uchitel’ tantsev (1952), Karnavalnaya noch (1956),...

IͶΔ

You Russians are

. . . awesome.

Holy crap.

The guy looks like he's 60.

CopperKettle

I bet there are such people in Iran too.

He surely has a good set of telomeres.

CopperKettle

16:27

He starred in some great movies. I've been reading the list.

Agatha Christie's "And then there were none" is a very good movie (1987). It's true to the story, unlike the Holllywoodized versions.

> Okay, I just finished watching this and it is THE BEST version, hands freaking down! It's very dark throughout, as the novel is. It was Christie's darkest and this stays true to that theme. There is also almost a sense of rawness that makes the darkness more chilling. The other versions are either somewhat campy or comical at times. Further, this film takes the time needed to let us know the characters intimately and to not like what we see. This 1987 Russian version is just frankly scary.

(From the IMDB)

Damkerng T.

16:59

Added to my list.

tchrist

17:11

@snailboat meta.portuguese.stackexchange.com/q/227/38

When you have a second, I wanted to have a (non-private) chat with you on that, about JLU etc.

IͶΔ

19:23

:O

@tchrist There is that one little typo which is annoying me like an itch right now.

Damkerng T.

19:35

@IͶΔ Scratch, scratch, scratch...

IͶΔ

OUCH

Too strong

Damkerng T.

:D

IͶΔ

1

Q: Policy on questions in basic mediums

Let's sit down and have a talk. Recently, we're closing a lot. 1 A good portion of the "offending" posts have been questions that either touch very basic concepts of chemistry, or are ones that you can get an answer to by inserting in a magical machine named Google and watching the page load. ...

discussion allowed-questions scope

New meta popcorn provision.

CopperKettle

19:58

After reading chemistry, my brain refuses to read such posts. Some "overload" lamp lights up.

But I plus-oned it.

I mean upvoted. I even forget English words.

IͶΔ

Haha that's me after studying magnetism.

Anonymous

20:40

Hello!

Damkerng T.

20:54

@snailboat Hello!

> oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/latter_2

^OALD defines latter as a noun.

> macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/latter

^Macmillan defines latter (that's applicable to our case) as a pronoun!

Labels! It's labels all around!

Anonymous

What case?

Damkerng T.

Oh! Sorry for not having posted the link!

0

Q: "the depth of his reaction to the latter's"

Reading Scholem's historical writings along with his letters to Benjamin, we begin to understand the depth of his reaction to the latter's leftward turn. Could you please clarify to me why there is an apostrophe in the word "latter". Does this mean the same as to his (Benjamin's) latter leftwa...

possessive

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It depends on how you define pronoun.

Anonymous

We can come up with a more useful definition of pronoun if we exclude words like latter.

Damkerng T.

listening

Anonymous

21:06

Why? Because latter doesn't pattern like him or her. It takes determiners, but those pronouns don't.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... good point!

Anonymous

Syntactically, there's no reason to consider latter a pronoun.

Anonymous

It's like a pronoun semantically in that it refers back to something previously said.

Damkerng T.

nods

LOL -- I thought you were in EL&U room, too, because JohnB's avatar looks really like yours when it's dimmed.

(You may need to squint your eyes to get the same effect.)

Anonymous

21:22

@DamkerngT. In CGEL's terms, latter is neither a noun nor a pronoun, but an adjective in fused modifier-head function.

Damkerng T.

Oh! That would make it quite difficult to explain it to the OP, I think!

Anonymous

Functional fusion is a neat idea, but it's virtually unknown among language learners.

Anonymous

We could keep the idea that it's an adjective in modifier function, though, if we pretend there's some ellipsis going on:

Anonymous

> the latter ~~person~~

Anonymous

Usually the ellipsis-based explanation is easier for people to understand.

Anonymous

21:25

So practically speaking, it may be more useful.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

In the latter person, we have latter as modifier and person as head.

Damkerng T.

That's relatively easy for learners to understand.

Anonymous

If we get rid of person, we're left with a phrase that ① has no head and ② has a modifier that apparently isn't modifying anything!

Anonymous

So we can pretend person is secretly there, and call it ellipsis.

Anonymous

21:27

CGEL avoids positing ellipsis, though, by suggesting that latter is both modifier and head. They call this "fusion" of functions.

Anonymous

We can simplify by calling it a noun, but it is rather strange as a noun, and of course morphologically it has the form of a comparative adjective.

Anonymous

As a noun, it's always definite.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think it's somewhat similar to same.

Anonymous

No one would call same a noun, would they?

Damkerng T.

I probably did. Hehe! :D

Anonymous

21:31

Well, Macmillan calls same a pronoun, but for the same reasons we discussed earlier, that's a rather confusing thing to do.

Anonymous

It's using a semantic definition for pronoun, and we can't come up with a coherent set of lexical classes ("parts of speech") that way.

Damkerng T.

nods -- It must be based on another set of grammar.

Anonymous

But really, we shouldn't be finding information about parts of speech in dictionaries anyway.

Anonymous

English dictionaries don't do a very good job with that, unfortunately :-(

Damkerng T.

If they're equally good, grammar books would become obsolete!

Anonymous

21:36

Well, I should say that quite often (some) dictionaries are right, but I agree, dictionaries just aren't sufficient as grammars. Kind of like how wrenches don't make very good screwdrivers.

Nihilist_Frost

22:28

"do the same" means that the subject performs the same action as was done by something else in close proximity previously mentioned.

Damkerng T.

nods

Nihilist_Frost

e.g. I started doing my homework. My brother proceeded to do the same.

Her friend sent her insulting texts. Other people in the school watched her reaction and ten minutes later did the same.

"do the same" is substituting for a whole predicate!

Anonymous

Well, more precisely, do the same is.

Anonymous

One predicate for another.

Anonymous

Did any of you grow up active outdoors?

Anonymous

22:36

I grew up sedentary and indoors.

Anonymous

But as an adult I've spent more time around nature.

Nihilist_Frost

I'm the sedentary kid... winter is discouraging too.

Anonymous

Yeah, I grew up in the Chicago suburbs, and it was pretty cold around there.

Anonymous

It helps that I can usually breathe better outdoors in California. The air is much nicer here. In this part of California, that is.

Anonymous

We generate plenty of smog here, but it blows northeast and makes Redding unpleasant instead of sticking around like it does in the San Fernando Valley.

Anonymous

22:39

The air here is relatively nice :-)

Anonymous

Nature is cruel, though. I keep finding dead animals.

Anonymous

I wonder if someone who grew up outdoorsy is bothered any less by finding them, just because they're so used to it.

Anonymous

I think I'm starting to get used to it, and that bothers me.

Nihilist_Frost

Yesterday I read "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson. All I can say is "WTF is this LOTTERY????"

extremely odd and fatal custom

Anonymous

I haven't read that.

Nihilist_Frost

22:56

You don't want to be spoiled.

It took me ages to figure out what was the vowel in "wolf".

tchrist

23:43

@Nihilist_Frost Same as the one in wool. :)

It’s the one in palm that gives folks major trouble.

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