Language Overflow

Anonymous

00:12

Language Log - The case of the disappearing determiners

Anonymous

Oh, I can't resist quoting Mark Liberman on this:

Anonymous

> Unfortunately, almost everything about the Google Book corpus is "riddled with errors".

Anonymous

A reminder that we should be cautious using Google Books Ngram Viewer.

CopperKettle

03:53

Someone kill this tag: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/grammarplural

Nihilist_Frost

04:03

French word "seconde" has /g/ in it for some reason

TIL

Anonymous

04:23

@CopperKettle I don't think I understand. It looks like you replaced grammar plural with grammarplural.. Why don't you just remove the tag yourself? Is there some information I'm missing?

CopperKettle

Good morning, Snails!

@snailboat Why do you think it was me?

I've removed it now from that question.

Oh, judging by the history of that page, it was me.

D'oh.

Anonymous

04:40

Oh, so we were both confused :-)

Crazy Ninja

05:44

Good Morning Everyone!

@DamkerngT. are you available now?

Zipping all necessary facts into 6 chapters is impressive is this correct?

I'm writing a review on a book

Jim Reynolds

07:16

@Cra That sentence looks fine to me.

Some people prefer to spell six in that situation, instead of using the numeral 6, but both ways are ok.

Is it possible that essential might be a better word than necessary?

Crazy Ninja

07:40

@JimReynolds thanks for your reply :)

Damkerng T.

08:11

I agree with Jim. (I wonder if zipping really fits that sentence, though.)

Anonymous

08:41

It's impressive how the author managed to fit everything you need to know into only X pages.

Anonymous

Cram is a vivid, informal alternative.

Anonymous

Crazy Ninja's sentence is decent if you're trying for the lowest possible word count.

Anonymous

I'd probably say all the instead of all, personally.

Anonymous

I think zipping is a little weird.

Anonymous

If it were me, I'd probably mention the number of pages instead of chapters, since chapters can be anywhere from a page to hundreds of pages long.

Anonymous

08:44

CGEL's verb chapter is practically a full-length book :-)

Damkerng T.

09:25

@snailboat The book is practically volumes!

Jim Reynolds

10:19

I like zipping, though, if compression is the idea.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@JimReynolds What if it isn't?

Jim Reynolds

Then I'd use buttoning.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

That's worse.

Damkerng T.

10:55

0

Q: Listening comprehension of a short TV commercial

I've been struggling with the listening comprehension of a very short TV commercial. Could you please listen to the approximately ten-second conversation from the link indicated below and tell me what MAN 2 is saying in the statement in bold font? I've written down what I think I heard. MAN 1...

I don't get the ad!

Damkerng T.

11:21

> We follow Chicago Manual of Style, 16th edition, strictly, using “Documentation I” style (see chapter 14) and capitalizing titles in bibliographies.
[...]
Epigraphs are indented 1/2” from left margin and 1/2” from right margin.
http://www.books.aisc.ucla.edu/AICRJStyleSheet.pdf

They don't use the in several places I expect them to be there.

Jim Reynolds

Where do you expect the?

the COM ..

The epigraphs?

the left margin ... ok i see

Damkerng T.

I expected the Chicago Manual of Style, the “Documentation I” style, the left margin, the right margin.

Even though I don't think that they're ungrammatical without thes.

(It made me feel a bit weird because they said "strictly".)

Jim Reynolds

11:41

Do not use ellipses to at the beginning or end of a quotation.

Do not indent first line after the title
or after any subheads.

It seems to be written sort of telegraphically.

Damkerng T.

nods

"Do not indent first line" is weird, imo.

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. Hi

Damkerng T.

Hi!

Crazy Ninja

putting something like this in my resume is good or bad?

consider me as an undergrad

Flutist for over a decade in Senior Brass Band in school.

Damkerng T.

"consider me as" is strange.

Crazy Ninja

11:46

This resume will not be sent to any company, just to show to my lecturer

Damkerng T.

Hmm... like a background story of yourself?

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. indeed. I felt it so odd

@DamkerngT. yes. He told in the lecture, to put every qualifications, school activities and other thing in our CVs

Damkerng T.

"I was" is clearer and more neutral in tone.

"I have been" is perhaps more natural in that sentence.

Crazy Ninja

I have been a Flutist for over a decade in college Senior Brass Band ?

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Not sure about your "Senior Brass Band"

Is it a name?

Crazy Ninja

11:49

But I still feel there is something wrong with it

Jim Reynolds

"Undergrad" has different meanings in different places.

I am an undergraduate student at ___ University

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. Nope. Western Band in School

Damkerng T.

Better not to capitalize anything unless it's a name.

Crazy Ninja

@JimReynolds I was just explaining my situation to @DamkerngT.. My question is italics sentence. Anyway, I appreciate that one too

Jim Reynolds

:-)

Crazy Ninja

11:52

@DamkerngT. I think playing flute more than 10 years is a batch that I can wear. Instead of just saying "I played flute in college band", I am trying to highlight that point to

Damkerng T.

"I've been in a band as a flutist for over a decade" or something along that lines. ("I have" looks better in formal writing.)

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. I think this is fine

Damkerng T.

"I consider myself as an above average flutist, as I've played the instrument in my collage band for over a decade."

Probably not the best way to phrase it, but I think it's good enough.

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. great one

@DamkerngT. there is another thing I want to ask from you

Damkerng T.

Yes?

Crazy Ninja

11:58

Its just a one month on my new workplace

Shall I include it in my CV ?

Damkerng T.

It's up to you. :-)

Crazy Ninja

I haven't got any work to do yet as I'm still doing my training stuff

Damkerng T.

I don't think it matters much, with or without it, but who knows? :-)

Anonymous

I'd get rid of the first as and spell college as I've written it here,

Crazy Ninja

my lecturer will get to know that I'm already an Engineer

Damkerng T.

12:00

Wondering if it's better without 'as': I consider myself as X

Crazy Ninja

Will it be a plus point on me ?

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes! Thanks, snailboat!

Anonymous

Yes, I like it better without as.

Anonymous

I think of myself as a snailboat. I consider myself a snailboat.

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. @snailboat that's perfect!

Damkerng T.

12:01

@CrazyNinja Could be, but don't expect too much from it.

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. But on my very first lecture day, I've got highlight in-front of the class for giving an advanced answer for one of his questions.

Also, that lecturer is the same person who is responsible for group project which we have to do in this semester

Damkerng T.

Nice!

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. I have decided to include my current job also in my CV. So wrote the below small para in.

I’m still in my training period and learning about the large complex system which they have developed and maintained over a decade.

Damkerng T.

Sounds good to me.

I'd probably use a rather than the, but the could be the right choice.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@CrazyNinja for over a decade flows better for me.

Damkerng T.

12:14

Somehow, with for, I'd read it like the development and maintenance had already stopped.

It's not wrong, though.

Crazy Ninja

Opps! Nooo

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. O_o

Damkerng T.

It's just my default reading. For someone who has been staying with the system for over a decade, it would be unnoticed, I think.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. It's not about the present perfect, or the word for itself. It's how words were put together in that sentence.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. You're right!

12

Q: Noun phrases as question titles

I find that many technical (or at least, problem-oriented) questions are in fact best presented using a noun phrase (or present participle phrase) as a title, rather than something which is grammatically a question. There are thousands of examples, but here is a random selection from questions r...

discussion asking-questions

I thought I was on ELL.

Damkerng T.

I thought it was a meta post!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

12:19

It is a meta post.

Damkerng T.

I couldn't see the link just by hovering the mouse. The link went off-screen for me.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

O_O

Damkerng T.

I'm here only remotely.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Hullo @RavindraPawar! Welcome to LO!

Ravindra Pawar

hello

I am new here..

MAR

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

12:23

We know that. :)

Ravindra Pawar

hmmm

Damkerng T.

Hello! Welcome to the room! @RavindraPawar

Ravindra Pawar

what is the diff between stackoverflow and stackexchange?

Thanks @DamkerngT. and @M.A.R

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@RavindraPawar Stack Exchange is a network of sites created by the owners of Stack Overflow about diverse topics.

SO → programming

SE → Everything else

Such as English language learning, which is the topic of the main site for this chatroom.

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Stack Everything Else, you mean? :P

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

12:26

@DamkerngT. No, that would be SEE.

Damkerng T.

I knew it. I knew you would say that!

Ravindra Pawar

ok thanks..

Damkerng T.

But @RavindraPawar, it's as MAR said.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Oh no the world has come to an end! MAR became predictable.

Ravindra Pawar

then i will be here daily..

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

12:28

Let's hope that.

Note that normal language questions such as "why is this sentence grammatical?" go to ELL's Cabin.

Damkerng T.

It depends on the "why". I'd say that "Is this sentence grammatical?" fits ELL's Cabin better.

But "why", especially a very deep "why", is okay here.

E.g., why do we speak? :-P

Or, how can we speak?

Or, how can we speak in another language?

Ravindra Pawar

ok

good

if i want to ask someone did u seen my movie? how it is to be asked grammatically correct?

Damkerng T.

(Or, how did I write "how can we speak in another language?" when "how can we speak another language?" is more idiomatic!)

@RavindraPawar "my movie" is a bit strange, unless you're a film maker.

"Have you seen <insert-a-movie-name-here>?" is probably the most common one.

Or "watched"

Ravindra Pawar

ok..

thanks,,..

Damkerng T.

14:25

Two quotes from Babe.

> There are many perfectly nice cats in the world, but every barrel has its bad apples, and it is well to heed the old adage, "Beware the bad cat bearing a grudge."

> ----

> And though every single human in the stands or in the commentary boxes was at a complete loss for words, the man who in his life had uttered fewer words than any of them knew exactly what to say. (Farmer Hoggett) "That'll do, pig. That'll do."

S.R.I

14:54

Happy New Year, everyone!

Damkerng T.

Happy New Year!

Damkerng T.

15:33

"substitute A for B" could mean "substitute B for A", it seems.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

17:37

\o @lekonchekon

-1

Q: Is this sentence grammatically correct?

I used a software my friends gave me to use, to do that. I used a software my friends gave me to use to do that. Is the above sentence grammatically correct? And I'm not proof reading, I just want to know. ._.)

grammaticality

@lekonchekon that's not the way to ask a question on ELL.

You are asking for proofreading since that's what you're doing is not called.

You can eat bananas and say I'm not eating bananas, but what you say won't change it.

Why didn't you ask it in chat BTW?

Nihilist_Frost

18:11

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I closed it.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Nihilist_Frost So did I.

Nihilist_Frost

No attempt at comprehension demonstrated, no explicit problem addressed, begging for "right vs wrong answer", asking for "can you check this part of the sentence" (which IS proofreading, as you are asking for people to check your sentence for errors). We all see through your paper-thin denial. Fatal close vote. — Nihilist_Frost 4 mins ago

a bit harsh

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Nihilist_Frost Aww

A bit too harsh

Nihilist_Frost

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I wonder if he will ragemode when he returns

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Nihilist_Frost He won't. I will. (•_•)=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿

Shoots

Nihilist_Frost

18:23

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Me or him?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Nihilist_Frost Both.

Then there'll be peace.

Nihilist_Frost

roflmao

TIL a new word: "phrag"

Nihilist_Frost

18:40

phrag = common reed.

derived from scientific name Phragmites australis

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Eh, that's a weird coinage.

Damkerng T.

19:00

Hi, @Hellion!

A translation from Hercules the movie:

> English: Every week, more refugees arrive seeking my protection, most of them covered in blood, crippled or burnt by Rhesus' men.

> A back translation from a subtitle in another language: Every 7 days, more refugees arrive seeking my protection, most of them covered in blood, crippled or burnt by Rhesus' men.

I wonder if they really mean the same.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Hellion?

Damkerng T.

He just left.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

（ノT＿T)ノ＾┻━┻

Damkerng T.

0

Q: Will it ruin the original meaning of the quote if I replace "the other day" with "a few days ago"?

Happy New Year all! I was watching Sailormoon on Youtube. The ending was sad. After that, I began to do some reading on Wikipedia about Sailormoon. When I saw the first release date of Sailormoon (it was 1992 and it is 2016 now), I suddenly started to moan that time passed so quickly. I stopped...

meaning-in-context word-difference

Ahh... that's related to the replacement of Every week with Every 7 days.

It feels different when we replace a vague expression with something more specific.

Nihilist_Frost

19:19

1

Q: What is the difference between "Find" and "Determine"?

I want to write a question in Math. as below but I don't know the difference between them: Determine the solution of the differential equation? or Find the solution of the differential equation?

word-choice

I did a close vote for off-topic -> answerable with dictionary

Damkerng T.

I'd use neither, but I'd rather use Solve <the equation>.

In this context, perhaps the two are interchangeable.

Nihilist_Frost

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I was taught that word in science class

I'd admit it's a little weird coinage

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Sometimes I feel learners, especially more advanced ones, should learn something more important than "is this grammatical". They should learn to ignore nitpicking their every sentence, just like a native speaker does.

Nihilist_Frost

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Mistakes anxiety, everyone has it to some degree.

and nobody realizes native speakers make the same amount of mistakes as ELLs

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. There is just a fine line between "Is this grammatical?" and "Is this what a native speaker would use in exactly the same situation?", but the difference is huge.

But you sure already know what I'm talking about. :D

Nihilist_Frost

19:29

@DamkerngT. Plain "Is this grammatical" means to me that the OP didn't use their brains to identify the problem

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. I now yawn when I hear that.

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. LOL

@Nihilist_Frost Or perhaps their textbooks encourage them to think that way.

Nihilist_Frost

@DamkerngT. Being rigorous and grammar-obsessive does not encourage practical language growth.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I see it as "there is a difference between 'grammatical' and 'acceptable by a native speaker' blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "

Damkerng T.

nods -- Grammar could be useful at a later phase, though.

Nihilist_Frost

19:32

I hear millions of anecdotal stories of people failing to conduct conversations after being ELL in their country's curriculum for their whole teen years.

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. LOL -- Your summary module works very well.

@Nihilist_Frost I'm actually one of them.

Nihilist_Frost

There should be exercises involving using the newly-acquired language to solve a very real real-life problem.

like how to ask directions to go somewhere.

or reporting an event.

or marketing something.

Damkerng T.

There was, in my class, but I wasn't able to grasp it.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Nihilist_Frost How can I go to bathroom? O_O

@Nihilist_Frost Then spammers are fluent speakers.

@Nihilist_Frost I just smelled my dinner.

Damkerng T.

So all I could do was to tell directions in broken English.

But really, there is another side of the coin, I think.

Nihilist_Frost

19:35

At least something to regularly stimulate the use of the new language.

Damkerng T.

I've noticed that lots of native speakers of Thai, especially in their teens, are not very competent when it comes to writing, especially something a bit more formal.

Nihilist_Frost

French:

Est-ce que je peux aller aux toilettes?

Damkerng T.

So speaking is related to writing, but not 100%.

How long have you learned French? (Are you still learning it?)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Nihilist_Frost Give me whatever language they speak in Tahiti.

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Wait, is that good English?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

19:39

@DamkerngT. No, it's an interrogative sentence.

Damkerng T.

It's grammatical, I'm sure!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Depends on what I was supposed to mean by saying that.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that makes me realize that there are some (Thai) sentences that only work when they're used by non-native speakers.

The most obvious one: ผมรักเมืองไทยมากมาก [I-love-Thailand-very-very].

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Why is this flagged?

Oh, it's not.

Nihilist_Frost

I accidentally flagged one of @DamkerngT. Posts

Damkerng T.

19:43

I have no idea!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Oh.

Damkerng T.

BTW, It'd sound very odd if a Thai said that (with two มาก [very]). It's typically just one มาก.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

We should ban him since he's planning to destroy humanity with @JimR.

Nihilist_Frost

I am typing on a phone

Damkerng T.

@Nihilist_Frost I see. Don't worry!

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. LOL

Nihilist_Frost

19:44

Menu buttons get small

Damkerng T.

@Nihilist_Frost I always have that feeling when I chat via iPad!

Nihilist_Frost

I was trying to reply

Damkerng T.

Back to the [very-very] sentence, I wonder if there are similar things in English. Things that could sound more natural when used by non-native speakers.

(and not considered incorrect)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Like (づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ?

Damkerng T.

I don't know! But I think there must be some!

> Determine/find the nilpotent matrix which commutes...

Wow! I've never heard nilpotent before!

Nihilist_Frost

19:54

Which dialects say "wut" for "what"?

I mean pronouncing

Damkerng T.

Sadly, www4.uwm.edu/FLL/linguistics/dialect/maps.html has no data on what.

I still pronounce it as /wɒt/ most of the time, I think.

(as opposed to /wɑt/)

Nihilist_Frost

20:26

@DamkerngT. I'm a "wut" person

Damkerng T.

@Nihilist_Frost Rhymes with "cut", I guess?

2

Q: Is spoken language ontologically superior to written language, really?

I have noticed that on EL&U some people seem to take it as axiomatic that only spoken language is real language. This does not seem axiomatic or otherwise obvious to me. Is it just a currently fashionable doctrine in linguistics, or is there an adequate argument in support of it, or both? Some e...

discussion

Oh, I like to know that, too!

(How come written languages aren't real?)

Hmm... I think sometimes "a" is abducted. I mean, it's supposed to be there, and the speaker seems to say it, but there's no obvious sound for it. It's basically nothing there, not even a schwa.

Transcript for