Language Overflow

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

12:00

What the hell, I was just getting started.

@user66288 To begin with, you need to learn the alphabet.

And the combinations of letters.

tchrist

I wonder whether perhaps the first language was English.

Damkerng T.

I think that's quite likely. Also possible is a Romance language.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. Romance language?

French?

Damkerng T.

Not sure which one. French is one of them.

tchrist

"Arabic people" is a curious notion.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

12:10

Okie dokie, it's time for Da Grammar Bash.

tchrist

A hole with no bottom.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I love free falls.

:o The last meta Q on ELL was more than a week ago!

Hey guys give me some punny kick-A title.

tchrist

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Read The Algebraist, but don’t read spoiler reviews first.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

No.

I'm an organochemist.

Or wish to be.

tchrist

What you do in the privacy of your own boudoir is up to you.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

12:13

^ Edited that comma just for you @Stoney

tchrist

Laboratoire

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Sooo French! :P

@Dam @TCh this is my title, simplistic and not so simplistic at the same time:

> Grammar is a good tag [sic]

Damkerng T.

A title of a meta post?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

The title of Da Grammar Bash

tchrist

sick sick sick

Anonymous

12:18

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Why [sic]?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

i.e. the meta post I'm going to write to make people nod and say "yeah, that tag sucks".

@snailboat Why not [sic]?

Anonymous

Are you quoting something as written in the original?

Damkerng T.

Considering the title of the book is ungrammatical (unless it's meant only for a few specific students), I wouldn't waste time taking advice from it. — The Photon Jan 11 at 16:36

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I'm quoting someone who made the tag, possibly. :P

Grammar is a good tag.

^ @Snail :P

tchrist

Why?

Damkerng T.

12:20

"Vocabulary for High-School Students" -- hmm... not sure if it's really wrong.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@tchrist So I'd be able to quote it and add a [sic] to it on meta.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I don't think most people would write High-School, but I don't see anything ungrammatical about that phrase.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I'm confused!

tchrist

Titular confusion is ill-advised.

Damkerng T.

12:22

Oh, I see! It was " vocabullary for the high-school students" (note the space) before the comment was posted!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I managed to confuse @TCh and @Snail at the same time. I must be a legend. ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

tchrist

School students are notorious for being high in some communities.

Hm, how come I cannot say "school students"?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@tchrist It's not Kosher.

Damkerng T.

But "school teachers" is fine!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Schoolteacher is often written as one word.

Damkerng T.

12:25

Oh! That's new to me.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Oh!

tchrist

> † ˈschoolage [n.]
† schooˈlation [n.]
school board [n.]
ˈschool-book [n.]
schoolboy [n.]
schoolcraft [n.]
schoolday [n.]
ˈschool-diˈvine [n.]
ˈschool-diˈvinity [n.]
school doctor [n.]
schooldom [n.]
ˈschoolery [n.]
schoolfellow [n.]
schoolful [n.]
schoolgirl [n.]
school-going [n.] ← school
ˈschool-house [n.]
schoolie [n.2]
schoolie [n.]
schooling [vbl. n.1]
ˈschooling [vbl. n.2]
ˈschool-keeper [n.]
schoolman [n.]
ˈschool-marm [n.]
ˈschool-marming [vbl. n.] ← ˈschool-marm
ˈschool-marmish [adj. n.] ← ˈschool-marm

Damkerng T.

A-ha! "schoolboy", not "school student".

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Huh, school student might be redundant.

'Cause any boy in school is apparently a student.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Looks like schoolteacher as a single orthographic word picked up steam around 1940 or so.

Anonymous

12:29

corpus.byu.edu/coha/?c=coha&q=41968013

Anonymous

Oops, I should have put the search term in brackets so it'd pick up schoolteachers too.

Anonymous

corpus.byu.edu/coha/?c=coha&q=41968063

Damkerng T.

1940 it is.

tchrist

I rather like some of the dead words like schoolage, schoolation, schoolric.

Damkerng T.

For me, schoolie jumped out of the list.

tchrist

12:37

Neither is marked as obsolete, but can't say I've heard them much.

> schoolie /ˈskuːlɪ/.
Also scheulie.

Etymology: f. school sb.1 + -ie.

a. north. dial. and Austral. A schoolteacher.

1901 in Eng. Dial. Dict. (1904) V. 250/2 ― That only three children out of a hundred have been absent on an average throughout twelve months will strike the ordinary scheulie··with astonishment.
1907 N. Spielvogel Cocky Farmer 33 ― The prettiest of all the girls was the schoolie, and didn’t she lead the lads a dance.
1951 E. Coxhead One Green Bottle vii. 179 ― ‘What a lot I’ve got to teach you!’ said Christopher smiling. ‘Schoolie.’ ‘Well, of course I’m a schoolie. What els…

That would be why.

Damkerng T.

12:53

-1

Q: Help! I will/am going to fall

Help!I will/am going to fall. MyApproach: I think the action will happen in the future.Hence we will fall if no one helps. Therefore,I use will Am I right In my approach?Please correct me if I am wrong.

future-tense

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. HAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLPPPPP

Damkerng T.

Reading English aspect explanations given by non-native speakers always makes me feel weird.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. So I've made you feel weird 55 times? (/¯◡ ‿ ◡)/¯ ~ ┻━┻

Damkerng T.

(Both in comments and in the answer in that thread.)

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M You flipped the table so peacefully! :P

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

（ノT＿T)ノ＾┻━┻

Damkerng T.

12:56

That looks very sad.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

Damkerng T.

Now you're mad. :P

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

In the end, the best emoticon is ಠ_ಠ.

Damkerng T.

:D

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I feel a bit sleepy, I'll come and finish the Grammar Bash and TRE in some hours.

Damkerng T.

13:00

Have a good nap.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Click>>>>>>>> chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/38727/…

Damkerng T.

14:12

2

Q: What is the meaning of Five Thousand and No/100 Dollars in a contract?

The following snippet is part of a business agreement. I don't understand the meaning of 'five thousand and no/100 dollars (5,000.00 USD)'. For A's responsibilities and services under this Agreement, Investor shall pay B a fee in the amount of Five Thousand and No/100 Dollars ($5,000.00 USD...

american-english numbers

> For A's responsibilities and services under this Agreement, Investor shall pay B a fee in the amount of Five Thousand and No/100 Dollars ($5,000.00 USD) (the "Fee") on the Effective Date.

Though it's clear what No/100 is, I think it's a little odd to write it that way in a contract.

Perhaps it's a common practice over in the US.

CopperKettle

"Results show that participants performed tasks requiring focused attention more carefully after viewing cute images. This is interpreted as the result of a narrowed attentional focus induced by the cuteness-triggered positive emotion that is associated with approach motivation and the tendency toward systematic processing."

Damkerng T.

(I expect "$5,000.00 US" or "US$ 5,000.00" or "5,000.00 USD", with the text coming after the numeral, e.g. "five thousand dollars exact" or "five thousand dollars even".)

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. I wasn't clear to me. A curious contraption.

Damkerng T.

"cute images"?

CopperKettle

yes!

Kawaii

Damkerng T.

14:17

@CopperKettle Ahh... I've written out many checks, so it looks familiar.

(I normally use "xx/100".)

CopperKettle

journals.plos.org/plosone/…

"The Power of Kawaii: Viewing Cute Images Promotes a Careful Behavior and Narrows Attentional Focus"

Damkerng T.

I'm curious to see some examples of those "cute images". :P

I mean, "cute" or "kawaii" is a little too vague for me to think of anything precise. :P

<-- having a good laugh here. :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

Ah, Pokémon and Hello Kitty!

CopperKettle

" Seven images of puppies and kittens were used for the baby animal condition, and seven images of dogs and cats were used for the adult animal condition. These images were selected in a pilot survey from 30 images that included the images used by Sherman et al. [16] and similar royalty-free images downloaded from the Internet. The images of baby and adult animals were selected so that they differed in cuteness and infantility ratings but did not differ in pleasantness and excitement ratings. "

Damkerng T.

14:20

Puppies and kittens always work!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

7 of the 10 newest questions have only one tag.

Damkerng T.

Perhaps about half with grammar.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

\o I'm back from my "nap".

@Dam this is the title I came up with just now:

> Is This Tag Useful? Episode 1 - The Big Boss (grammar)

Damkerng T.

14:48

2

A: Indirect speech: is HAS BEEN okay in "'External Minister said that the matter has been taken up with Saudi authorities"?

Yes, has been is grammatically correct, even in indirect speech in the past tense. Indeed, the tense (has been vs. had been) indicates an important distinction! Has been implies that what the speaker said is still relevant in the present. Had been would imply that the matter is closed. The mi...

Hmm... both Ben's and @Araucaria's answers could be read as a suggestion that in that sentence had been is incorrect if the involvement or the matter hasn't ended.

I think it's more like an option, rather than mandatory, not using the backshift.

Though I think we flatten the tenses more and more.

(Basically, we usually fix our Tr at now. It's actually much simpler to handle tenses that way.)

CopperKettle

15:03

In reported speech the tenses may be backshifted if the sense requires it. — StoneyB 54 mins ago

Stoney hit the nail on the head.

1

Q: "up to now" vs. "by the time"

By the time he is finished with this first volume. Up to now he is finished with the first volume. Are these two sentences synonymous and indicating that the author has just written the first part of his work and that the other volumes will be released in the next future? P.S. I c...

grammar

I tried to explain the possible purpose of the reviewer. I guess StoneyB would've explained it clearer.

There is a curious Past + Present combination

By the time Kotkin is finished with this first volume, the Stalin that he produces is an “uncanny fusion of zealous Marxist convictions and great-power sensibilities, of sociopathic tendencies and exceptional diligence and resolve”.

oh.. it's probably Present+Present

Damkerng T.

Narrative Present strikes again! (I think)

CopperKettle

(0:

Stephen Kotkin

Stephen Mark Kotkin (born February 17, 1959) is an American historian, academic and author. He is currently a professor in history and international affairs at Princeton University and a fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution. Kotkin's most recent book is his first of three volumes planned on the life of Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin: Stalin: Volume I: Paradoxes of Power, 1878-1928 (2014). == Academic career == Kotkin graduated from the University of Rochester in 1981 with a B.A. in English. He studied Russian and Soviet history under Reginald E. Zelnik and Martin Malia at the...

Must be an interesting book

Damkerng T.

nods

@DamkerngT. Many US speakers use /ʊ/ in root. — StoneyB 9 mins ago

Ah, I should look into the IPA chart a little more carefully! :-)

Hi, @Ahmad

Ahmad

15:23

Hi @DamkerngT.

How are you

Damkerng T.

Good, good!

Ahmad

Do you think this sentence is ok? "The user often needs to follow the same procedure to create wrappers for the similar websites and it makes creating wrappers easier by using this system."

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Does that mean that root has a short sound?

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle I'm not sure. I have to look it up in the chart first. :D

CopperKettle

(0:

@Ahmad ditch the the before "similar"

Damkerng T.

15:24

Apparently, his symbol is much more specific than mine. :D

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

@Ahmad I agree with CopperKettle

Ahmad

@CopperKettle thank you, is the rest of it good?

it makes creating wrappers easier by using this syste

Damkerng T.

"by using this system" sounds a little strange to me.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Regarding cruel and true I know how to pronounce them since childhood. (0:

Damkerng T.

15:26

How about "by using this method"?

CopperKettle

Elvis Presley - Don't Be Cruel

►

Ahmad

I was going to ask that

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle A-ha!

@Ahmad Or even better, "by using this procedure".

Or just "by this procedure".

Ahmad

@DamkerngT. Actually I want to conclude and count an advantage of the system

CopperKettle

"The user often needs to follow the same procedure to create wrappers for similar websites and this system makes this procedure easier."

Araucaria

15:28

@DamkerngT. In the first version of the post I was just targeting my answer to the OP's frustrated recasting of the question where they clearly want to know whether has been is grammatical or not. (Cuz it had already been explained by Victor that had been was grammatical). But! I have edited it for the avoidance of doubt because of your (justified) concerns!

Damkerng T.

@Araucaria Thanks!

Ahmad

@CopperKettle Thank you

Damkerng T.

@Ahmad It's a little strange for me to claim that "because the system forces the user to follow a specific procedure, it helps the user."

I mean, I can understand the whole idea, but it's not quite sensible to me.

Ahmad

@DamkerngT. but procedure is almost the same, and that is why it makes the process easier

Damkerng T.

I understand that, but it's somewhat weird to me anyway.

It sounds a bit like it helps the user by limiting the user's ability.

Ahmad

15:37

How about "Using this system, the user often needs to follow the same procedure to create wrappers for similar websites and it makes creating wrappers easier."

Damkerng T.

> The system eases the task of creating a new wrapper by allowing the user to use the same standard procedure in order to create new wrappers for similar websites.

^I might phrase it that way.

(Disclaimer: It's just a quick draft, and not a very careful one at that.)

Ahmad

Thank you

Bye 4 now

Damkerng T.

No problem!

CopperKettle

@Ahmad - you should try out lang-8.com

Damkerng T.

See you around!

CopperKettle

15:40

Bye

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle I guess StoneyB meant that. I just checked; /ʊ/ is the vowel for words like book, took, rook.

tchrist

@DamkerngT. And in bull, full, pull, bush, put, bushel, butcher, pudding, pulpit, push, sugar. And yes, I have that vowel in root, rhyming it with foot.

It’s quite common in the Midwest.

Damkerng T.

nods -- The vowel of my root rhymes with true.

tchrist

It’s something that coastal denizens deride us for, people who can’t tell their cots from their coughts or their Dons from their Dawns.

Damkerng T.

Hehe! I think we have a wide range of variations.

Would the vowel of your route rhyme with root or true?

(Or does it rhyme with out?)

tchrist

15:57

We rhyme route with out in the Midwest.

CopperKettle

nice

Damkerng T.

I see. I use both; my route rhymes with "out" in network stuff, and with "root" in roads and paths.

tchrist

Roof and hoof also have the PUT vowel here.

Damkerng T.

I don't know why I do that!

CopperKettle

Here in the Mideast we are taught to pronounce it with oo (0:

tchrist

16:00

@CopperKettle I don't know what that means.

Damkerng T.

I think it means that his root rhymes with room.

tchrist

In the Midwest we aren't taught to pronounce things at all. We just learn by observance.

CopperKettle

yes, kinda

@tchrist I see.

I recalled a song..

"My name it is nothing,
My age it means less,
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest"

tchrist

My route has /oʊ/; room and true have /u/; would, cook, foot, root, roof, hoof, put have /ʊ/; but, cut, shut, ton have /ʌ/.

Doom and gloom took the cook to the moon.

Natives learn by ear, aliens by eye. This is a problem.

It's likely one small source of the broad gap.

Hanaa

18:53

Hi all ! :)

How are u @DamkerngT.? Happy to see u here

How are @snailboat? Happy to see u too again after my long absence from the room

Damkerng T.

Hello! @Hanaa

We're all okay, I think. How are you?

Hanaa

Fine thank u

Could u tell me if this sentence is ok ? They engage very little in brainstorming during the writing tasks.

Damkerng T.

It should be okay.

But don't forget that there is no standalone sentence.

Hanaa

Yes

It is a part of a paragraph

How about this one?

Facebook posts rise the students's level of thinking

Damkerng T.

That's a bit weird.

In two places.

Hanaa

19:06

yes

Where?

Damkerng T.

Where do you think? :-)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Hanaa Um, they don't.

But "students's" and "level of thinking", I think.

Damkerng T.

Maybe the main ELL room is better: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/22937/ells-cabin

(Don't worry. We're in both rooms.)

Hanaa

I am looking for the correctness of the verb Rise

not the content of the sentence

Damkerng T.

Yes. It's a typical exercise for rise vs. raise, I think.

Hanaa

19:10

Is" rise" there correct?

Damkerng T.

Or maybe the exercise wants you to use a preposition, like rise above.

Hanaa

actually i need a synonym for increase

is it rise or raise in that sentence?

Damkerng T.

You can't use rise because it's an intransitive verb.

I'm a little bit busy. Maybe @inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M can help you better.

Hanaa

19:51

ok thank u

tchrist

20:04

@DamkerngT. Which is why I've always found curious the British use of getting a pay rise instead of getting a pay raise like the rest of us.

Damkerng T.

@tchrist That's interesting indeed! I haven't heard pay rise before!

tchrist

7

Q: "Pay rise" vs "pay raise"

Which sentence below is correct? Ben received a pay rise. Ben received a pay raise.

grammar transitive-verbs intransitive-verbs

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Man, below is really common.

tchrist

I removed them on ELU.

Except for those of two 20k posters.

Specifically, I looked for all cases of "the below" that didn't sound good and fixed them.

Of course I left questions asking about this very thing alone.

But "the below" correlates extremely highly with "this needs to be edited".

Almost always the post needs more work beyond that.

Although I don't bother with doomed stuff.

0

Q: Is "US" mentioned in "US and world economies" adjective?

Is "US" mentioned in the below sentence adjective? "The US and world economies were being strongly affected by the slowdown in global growth." if not, why give me a reason.

adjectives

Why indeed?

Do you think they meant shattered not shuttered?

0

Q: Interchangeability of Past Continuous or Past Simple for Present Perfect Continuous

Yesterday an American friend of mine shuttered my world by saying that these three tenses above are interchangeable in American English so if I were to say, for instance, to a friend who showed up on my doorstep an hour later than we arranged "I was waiting for you for an hour!" or "I waited for...

american-english simple-past continuous perfect-continuous

Damkerng T.

@tchrist That one could be a good ELL question.

tchrist

20:11

Was thinking about that.

Damkerng T.

@tchrist Only shattered would make sense to me!

tchrist

I've started the first migration-close and left a comment. We'll see whether it sticks.

Thing is, Peter’s right.

They all three work there, and what little difference might be had between them isn't something most people would ever consider.

I think this is another case of the existence of more than one answer confusing people.

Or the guidelines they were given were imparted as ironclad rules.

Damkerng T.

@tchrist nods -- I think I've tried to come up with an explanation based on the idea: English now is tricky.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Hey guys I think you should post an answer to my meta Q @TCh @Dam.

That way we'll make sure the conversation doesn't drift away somewhere unwanted.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I still can't do anything much more than a casual chat right now.

tchrist

20:19

@DamkerngT. It isn't just English; in Spanish you can ask "we see you tomorrow, eh?" for "we'll see you tomorrow, eh?" and nobody would bat an eyelash.

The tenses and aspects and intentions aren't as locked down and separated as a computer programming language would have them.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. If it does drift away, I'm going to shoot you. (•_•)=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿

Damkerng T.

scared

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Same goes for TC, but since he uses big words and is a mod, I'll need a shotgun.

tchrist

Ken ye not that I can you write quips in naught but small words of just one beat each if I like?

To add a post to yours would take me some mind, burn me some time.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Infiltrate some poem resources, it will you make write.

tchrist

20:29

I believe that the idiosyncrasies of different dialects of English well deserve to be here - after all, I'm not asking which tense to use for a situation. If the proposition turns out to be true it'll be huge for many people. — D4RKS0UL 5 mins ago

Sigh.

"Huge".

@D4RKS0UL All three are perfectly grammatical because they are things that one native speaker could produce in that circumstance and have it clearly understood by another native speaker without loss of meaning or intent. And as Peter Shor notes, they all mean pretty much the same thing in actual day-to-day practice for this scenario. Furthermore, this is not something unique to the United States; it’s just how English is. — tchrist 2 mins ago

Tenses and aspects do not each abide in a little glass-encased showroom of their own.

> I’m eating supper now.
I’m thinking this won’t work.
I’m seeing Susan next week.

The first one needs the continuous aspect, but the other two do not.

But they permit it.

> I see Susan next week.
I’ll be seeing Susan next week.
I will see Susan next week.
I’m going to see Susan next week.

I so often wish I knew where a learner was coming from, language-wise.

Damkerng T.

21:23

@tchrist Same here. I think it'd be useful if they shared with us what their L1 is.

Hanaa

Good night all

Damkerng T.

Good night!

Damkerng T.

23:16

0

Q: "Caulk"/"Cock" Pronunciation Difference

How do I pronounce "caulk" so that it is not misheard as "cock"? Some native speakers told me that they are the same sound.

pronunciation

Hmm... I'm not sure what dialect is that.

tchrist

23:30

well

There might be Southern Californians who say them about with the vowel in FATHER, or others who say them both with the THOUGHT vowel.

Damkerng T.

nods

tchrist

I have the THOUGHT vowel in the first and the FATHER vowel in the second. I don’t have the CLOTH vowel as distinct from the THOUGHT vowel.

In the UK, the first should have the THOUGHT vowel and the second the CLOTH vowel, but most North Americans will perceive those as being "the same".

That's going to be hard to explain to this person.

Damkerng T.

It's pretty difficult to explain sounds in letters!

tchrist

Especially when he doesn’t know what sounds those letters are making.

Damkerng T.

Especially to someone who doesn't really hear the difference.

Yes!

tchrist

23:37

IPA helps, but only with some training.

Damkerng T.

I think if his peers pronounce the two words the same way, he(?) should do the same.

tchrist

I wonder if it’s a non-rhotic dialect with cork issues, too.

But honestly, how often would context not make it obvious what is being said?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I just realized that:

> Some native speakers told me that they are the same sound.

tchrist

They aren't for me, but they might be for others.

Damkerng T.

could mean two possible things!

tchrist

23:40

Yes.

Damkerng T.

What are the same sound? His? Or theirs?!

In dialects that "caulk" and "cock" sound the same, do "talk" and "tock" sound the same as well?

Transcript for