Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

09:00

Found one!

2012 SBS 가요대전 The Color of K POP 2부 121229 HDTV H264 720p HANrel

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It varies a lot between "mushik" and "musik" from speaker to speaker.

Anonymous

Oh! I've never seen this sort of show before :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat This kind of show is their forefront of the wave of K-Pop around this region. :D

Anonymous

Neat!

Anonymous

I'm out of touch.

Damkerng T.

I scanned for recent clips (you can try "Inkigayo 2015"), but it looks like the current MCs pronounce "music" more English like.

Anonymous

09:05

Also, when they say K-pop, it sounds like English!

Damkerng T.

Yes!

Iirc, around 2012-2014, they tried very hard to penetrate the world-wide market, not just Asian.

Oh, they went to Madison Square Garden even earlier, in 2010.

Girls' Generation performs at Madison Square Garden in October, 2010.

> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Girls%27_Generation_concert_tours

Anonymous

Oh, I think they're pretty well known here!

Damkerng T.

But I remember this one:

(SNSD)~Full Version Girls' Generation in New York Live Concert

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Anonymous

I'm really grateful to Vance for putting Japanese writing next to the romanization and IPA transcriptions.

Anonymous

Strictly speaking it's not necessary, but it connects a lot faster in my head that way.

Damkerng T.

09:09

I like it when linguists do that with Thai, too.

Anonymous

> There are also two voiced stop+fricative combinations in Japanese: lamino-alveolar [dz], as in zōki [dzoːkʲi] 臓器 'internal organ', and lamino-alveopalatal [ɟ̟ʑ], as in jōki [ɟ̟ʑoːkʲi] 蒸気 'steam'.

Anonymous

Those would be ぞうき and じょうき in kana, by the way.

Anonymous

[dz] and [z] are allophones of /z/

Damkerng T.

Interesting that ぞうき (zōki) becomes [dzoːkʲi].

Anonymous

> Many native speakers of Japanese are quite surprised to discover that there's actually a phonetic difference to worry about, but you'll hear it if you listen carefully to pronunciations of zu [dzɯ] 図 'diagram' and chizu [cɕizɯ] 地図 'map'.

Anonymous

09:16

6

A: Is /z/ pronounced as [z] or [dz] or both?

From The Sounds of Japanese (Vance 2008), p.85: We'll transcribe [dz] phonemically as /z/ because there's no contrast between [dz] and the voiced lamino-alveolar fricative [z]. Typically, though not consistently, [dz] occurs at the beginning of a word or in the middle of a word immediately fo...

Anonymous

I just had the oddest feeling I'd typed up this passage before . . . :-)

Damkerng T.

^^

Anonymous

I'm assuming that the [dz] part is what interested you, but feel free to ask about any other part of the word.

Damkerng T.

So native speakers do this without being aware of themselves!

Anonymous

Oh, sure. S'like how English speakers use different allophones for /p t k/ and have no idea they're any different.

Anonymous

09:18

But you know :-)

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Anonymous

I need to internalize all the conventions Vance uses.

Anonymous

I'm convinced they're better than the conventions in the other books I have (aside from the books that follow Vance)

Anonymous

I noticed he transcribes geminate consonants with two length markers, so ittsū 一通 'one letter' is [itːːsɯː]

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

I used to transcribe the unaspirated "t" and "p" with a double "t" (tt) and a double "p" (pp). It's easier to type, but probably not the best system.

The common system is to write "t" for the unaspirated one and "th" for the aspirated one.

Anonymous

09:23

Well, many people associate those doublings with geminate (or long) consonants

Anonymous

Geminate as in "Gemini"

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes! That's easy for me to remember because it's in the name of the Thai language :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe! But we also have a country named Taiwan. :D

Anonymous

Well, sure! But that's a whole different scheme!

Damkerng T.

09:25

(I used to get that a lot. "Where are you from?" "I'm from Thailand." "Oh, Taiwanese. I know Taiwan.")

Anonymous

It's Pinyin. Táiwān

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Wow! It never occurred to me that people might mix them up.

Damkerng T.

Apparently, many people do!

Anonymous

Ah, well, I guess lots of us English speakers are pretty ignorant.

Damkerng T.

I can't say that it was only English speakers. :-)

Anonymous

09:27

Ah, well, I guess lots of us ~~English~~ speakers are pretty ignorant.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

Now it sounds like I'm generalizing the human race as a bunch of audio playback devices.

Damkerng T.

I couldn't blame them though. I sort of look a bit Taiwanese-ish.

@snailboat LOL

Anonymous

A while back, I talked about how /ai/ is sometimes replaced with /eʜ/ in Tōkyō speech, as in じゃない→じゃねえ. (Vance calls this "tough guy" pronunciation.)

Damkerng T.

imagining a 'tough guy'... :-)

Anonymous

09:31

But sometimes this results in a disappearing sound!

Damkerng T.

probably sort of like 'Great Teacher Onizuka'...

Anonymous

In Modern Japanese, /w/ generally only appears before /a/.

Anonymous

So, though you'd expect kowai to become kowee, the /w/ disappears and you're left with koee.

Anonymous

And tsuyoi becomes tsuee rather than tsuyee.

Anonymous

Because /ye/ and /yi/ are likewise typically not possible sequences.

Anonymous

09:32

But Vance reports that some Tōkyō speakers actually do produce /ye/!

Anonymous

So はやい hayai becomes はいぇえ hayee, where the innovative big-い little-ぇ sequence represents /ye/

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think so. I'm not actually familiar with GTO, but I've heard of it a lot of times. :-)

Anonymous

I think there's a drama and an animation, isn't there?

Damkerng T.

Yes, more than one remake, even!

Anonymous

/ai, ae, oi/ → /eʜ/ has actually been around for over a hundred years in Tough Guy Speech

Anonymous

09:36

I remember reading about it in a publication about Japanese pronunciation from the late 1800s.

Anonymous

But I can't remember what it was called . . .

Anonymous

It's lexicalized in the extremely insulting second-person pronoun temee, which is derived from temae.

CopperKettle

Do you guys know about the Korean TV show "Running Man"?

oops, forgot to say Hi again! (0: Hi, @DamkerngT.!

Damkerng T.

Of course! I think I watched almost every episode of the first three seasons.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. So it seems a great show to you?

Damkerng T.

09:39

Hi, @CopperKettle!

Anonymous

Welcome back, Kettle!

CopperKettle

I felt obliged to watch a couple of installments of it yesterday..

Hi, @snails!

Damkerng T.

It looked a bit awkward in the first couple episodes, then it was getting better, and then it became an extremely hit show!

I haven't watched its 4th season though.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Thank you! I was just wondering if my hosts were putting me on then they seemed so enthralled with this show. So it's indeed popular. (0:

Damkerng T.

I guess it's hard for someone around my region to not know this show.

CopperKettle

09:41

I could not follow the plot, hard as I tried..

it was weirdness incarnate

Damkerng T.

The basic idea was they would divide the hosts and their guests into two groups: runners and chasers. They used to usually start the chase after the sunset, in interesting buildings and places after opening hours.

(So, in a way, it's sort of like a night at the museum.)

And they are all in show business, so they know how to make it even more interesting.

CopperKettle

Ah, I see.

I could not follow the rules, and the Russian amateur subtitling was palpably crappy in places

Damkerng T.

Oh, basically, there virtually is no real rule. :D

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

Things are usually up to the PD (Production Director, I think),

who in turn would tell Yu Jae Sok what to do with the rest. :P

If it's in the first three seasons, you could probably ask me what was going on. :D

CopperKettle

09:48

No, it's probably not my kettle of tea. (0:

Damkerng T.

Okay! :D

Anonymous

Do you know how to move your velum?

Damkerng T.

Can we do that voluntarily?

Anonymous

Well, you do it all the time when you talk :-)

CopperKettle

@snailboat Move my what?

Damkerng T.

09:49

Hmm... but to move only the velum...

Anonymous

@CopperKettle It's also called the soft palate.

Anonymous

It's the rear portion of the roof of the mouth.

CopperKettle

soft palate.. no, I never tried to move it..

Anonymous

When you open it (by lowering it), air flowing out of the lungs can escape through the nose.

Anonymous

When you close it (by raising it), the nasal and oral cavities are sealed off from one another.

Anonymous

09:51

If you open it, you produce nasal sounds.

Anonymous

If you close it, you produce oral sounds.

Anonymous

That's the velum.

Damkerng T.

I guess, to me it's like shaking the breast muscles. (I think most muscle men know how to do that, but not me.)

Anonymous

Pectorals?

Damkerng T.

(Not sure what it's actually called, but I guess you can imagine that.)

Anonymous

09:52

→ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectoralis_major_muscle

Damkerng T.

Oh, dancing pectorals!

Maybe I could do it if I tried hard enough (both the pectoral thing and the velum thing. :P)

Anonymous

At the same time!?

Anonymous

Quite a feat!

Damkerng T.

LOL -- At a different time. :D

It's kinda hard to move the velum without trying to make a sound.

I'm not even sure if it's really moved.

CopperKettle

If you know some truths, then yell ‘em,
This won’t never hurt your vellum.

Damkerng T.

09:58

:D

CopperKettle

Now I will remember this word. (0:

I composed silly ditties about other parts of the body too to help me remember.

(0:

something about metatarsus, I recall. (0:

Damkerng T.

I had no idea what metatarsus is!

CopperKettle

I rhymed it with metacarpus (0:

What for, I don't know..

Damkerng T.

You have a way with words!

CopperKettle

Thanks! (0:

BBL

Damkerng T.

10:03

o/

Those are not stairs but steps. — tchrist 7 hours ago

Oh, that's really interesting!

Looks like step is a more generic term.

Anonymous

I don't know. I immediately thought steps when I read the question, and again when I saw the picture.

Anonymous

Front steps, specifically.

Anonymous

So I upvoted Jasper's answer when I saw it.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You have many metatarsals and metacarpals!

Anonymous

And, my favorite plural, phalanges!

CopperKettle

10:08

Oops! The word velum is pronounced vee-lam - does not rhyme with "yell 'em".

How to Pronounce Velum

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Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Try swallowing :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, that helps!

CopperKettle

I gotta rework my poem about "velum" (0;

khmm..

"Scold your recruits when you drill 'em, this will never hurt your velum". (0:

Or, on a more humanistic note, "Praise your recruits".

Anonymous

How kind of you!

CopperKettle

bows down

Anonymous

10:14

Japanese purintsu and purinsu are clearly distinct, unlike English prints and prince (which may be distinct sometimes but generally overlap)

Anonymous

Because a different allophone of /ɴ/ is used before /s/ in Japanese.

Damkerng T.

I love how the first comment on this question is a link to someone asking a similar question earlier, and the first comment on that question is a link to a third, also similar, question, the first comment on which is a link to yet another question (this time, not on ELL) about the same thing. That fourth question is marked as a duplicate in English SE. — user8399 4 hours ago

LOL

CopperKettle

hehe

I can imagine what the Interwebs will turn into by 2050, the way things are going

Anonymous

@CopperKettle A pile of atomic dust?

CopperKettle

@snailboat why?

Anonymous

10:24

Wait, lemme turn on the optimism switch.

Anonymous

@CopperKettle A super-duper interweb?

CopperKettle

(0:

Lemme turn off my optimism switch.. Probably there will be a super-AI by then. (0:

And 400 seasons of Running Man on torrents.. oh my God.

Damkerng T.

LOL

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

In case you missed it, before Running Man there was Family Outing. :P

Hey, Family Outing has a 8.7 on IMDb!

So is Running Man!

CopperKettle

10:29

(0:

Damkerng T.

Wow!

Anonymous

[̃ɰː]　←　Testing diacritic rendering

Anonymous

Darn.

Anonymous

Okay, help me get this right again. T_T

Damkerng T.

There is something above that bracket.

:P

Anonymous

10:35

[ɰ̃ː]

Anonymous

Okay, that one looks right on my phone.

Damkerng T.

Yay! Looks good to me too.

Anonymous

The squigglydoo should be above the turned m with a tail.

Anonymous

(Latin small letter turned m with long leg)

Anonymous

Just for the record, both of them look wrong in my browser on this computer.

Anonymous

10:37

Ah! I did the diacritics wrong all evening!

Anonymous

I think I fixed all of them.

Anonymous

I'm just thankful I can edit all my messages from the last ∞ minutes.

Damkerng T.

:D

Since the headline now reads "Indian fisherman ..." it would appear that it was written in typoese. — Nick Gammon yesterday

Another funny comment around ELL.

Anonymous

India fisherman (N-N) and Indian fisherman (Adj-N) are both grammatical, but I think in general we can expect the latter.

Damkerng T.

It looks like it was a typo to me at first glance. Then it turned headlinese. Then again, it turned typoese. :P

Anonymous

10:48

Sure, I'd believe it was a typo. Or just a choice of words the author reconsidered.

Anonymous

Possibly a braino. :-)

CopperKettle

@snailboat So "India fisherman" would look awkward even in a headline? Someone has to write this then.

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Dunno. I think it's okay-ish.

CopperKettle

urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Braino

Anonymous

I suppose in print, a headline author might choose the shorter version to save space.

CopperKettle

10:49

First 'velum', now 'braino'. Two new words in a day.

Anonymous

Man, only two? I have to try harder.

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

^^

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

11:05

Still something about ELL bothers me.

Anonymous

Yeah? What's that?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

If I go and ask something on meta.chem, I know that people will read what I wrote.

I'm not sure I can say that about ELL.

Which disheartens me from writing a new meta post, specially if it's something as critical as "fighting with the two biggest tags on ELL".

tchrist

11:22

People don't want to read long things.

And splitting the vote is a bad idea.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@tchrist . . . on ELL.

Am still looking for a way to encourage meta participation.

tchrist

Addressing two unrelated tags in one post may be asking too much of readers.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@tchrist Not unrelated. I'm just slowly trying to approach the death of broad tags.

tchrist

ok

Anonymous

12:08

u.arizona.edu/~nwarner/publications ← This page does something to my brain that makes it hurt.

Damkerng T.

13:21

1

Q: Can we use a past form of verb with present form of linking verb 'be'?

I am learning English grammar from a book. The current section I am learning is Adverbial clauses of time (future reference).The section says to use present form after adverbial clause when referring to future. e.g The Owens will move to new flat when their baby is born. We should visit...

An example of why learning the passive voice is important.

> Now as we know called is the past form of call verb, So how can we say ...before our flight is called. like is it right to say e.g

That's a common confusion.

tchrist

14:04

One has to learn English inflectional morphology. Also, articles.

Damkerng T.

14:37

There's also some related info in the 2002 reference grammar CGEL, page 505, examples [18.ii.a-c]: "[What is/are needed] is/are managers with new ideas and the will to apply them", where both singular and plural verbs (in any combination) in both the matrix and the subordinate clauses are acceptable when the predicative complement (PC) is a plural NP (such as "managers with new ideas and the will to apply them" in the CGEL example). I'm assuming that your example would have used a plural PC if it had been filled out for us. — F.E. Feb 15 at 10:32

This is interesting.

If I read it correctly, it means that all of these are possible:

> a) What is needed is managers with new ideas and the will to apply them.

> b) What is needed are managers with new ideas and the will to apply them.

> c) What are needed is managers with new ideas and the will to apply them.

> d) What are needed are managers with new ideas and the will to apply them.

a), b), and d) are easy to accept.

c) is somewhat odd.

tchrist

15:20

I think (a) the most common.

People don’t usually start sentences like that with "What are".

Damkerng T.

16:47

in ELL's Cabin, 11 mins ago, by tchrist

Notice it has to be progressive: Today I’m eating this weird living mollusk for the first time in my life.

^Worth noting

If you want to discuss deictic categories under Fillmore's framework, Linguistics Stack Exchange may be a more appropriate place. But if you want to learn English, because, for example, you're curious why we can write, She knew she would meet him soon, and whether that soon is in the future or in the past, and such, I'd recommend asking a question based on your example sentence would be better. I hope to see your revised question soon! — Damkerng T. 1 hour ago

"I'd recommend asking a question based on your example sentence would be better."

Hehe! My own braino made a run-on sentence!

Hmm... what was I thinking exactly at that time? I can't remember it now.

It looks like I sorta either had a braino or else I might try to use a that-clause with that omitted.

0

Q: Most of the milk _____ gone bad. Six gallons of milk _______ still in the refrigerator. has ---- are have ---- is

Most of the milk _____ gone bad. Six gallons of milk _______ still in the refrigerator. has ---- are have ---- is . Which verb should be used in both blanks? Guide me please.

sentences motion-verbs

Aww... I guess the answer would depend on how pedantic their teacher/test designer is.

> An extreme application of the prescriptivist rule can be seen in the examples "there is less flour in this canister" and "there are fewer cups (grains, pounds, bags, etc.) of flour in this canister", which are based on the reasoning that flour is uncountable whereas the unit used to measure the flour (cup etc.) is countable.

> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less

Damkerng T.

20:09

0

Q: Connected prepositional phrases

It is possible, as we all know, to say those sentences below. It was given to me by a kind woman. I walked on the top of the building with my friend under a moon light. One common point between those sentences is that the prepositional phrases are not connected by a conjunction. It f...

prepositional-phrase ellipsis coordination

Hmm... that makes me curious about their first language.

Prepositional phrases must work like coordinations in their first language.

tchrist

A big old red diesel fire engine.

I don't know why they would think postmodifiers need coördinating conjunctions to restrict them when premodifiers don’t.

Damkerng T.

That sounds like you have a good idea what their first language is. Is it Romantic or Germanic?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. What languages are Romantic? :P

Damkerng T.

I probably should've said "romance" rather than "romantic". :D

But of course, I had French in mind (for the romantic ones). :P

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I'm pretty sure their language isn't romantic.

tchrist

20:16

You guys so funny.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

tchrist

@DamkerngT. Neither branch requires such.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Hullo @Seitaridis! Please visit the ELL's Cabin for discussion.

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