Language Overflow

Anonymous

01:41

Well, you don't have to accept the idea that who is is deleted. That's imaginary. Made up. It's not like we can observe who is appearing in the sentence and then being mentally scratched off.

Damkerng T.

06:02

1

Q: Choosing options in "The company is not doing well-isn't it time you sell/sold/selling off your shares in it?"

Choose the option which expresses the sentence in the best manner: The company is not doing well-isn't it time you sell/sold/selling off your shares in it? From my point of view, sell is the best option as the sentence is of simple present tense. Using the option sold will make it in ...

Ahh... I know that traditionally it's "It's time you sold ..."

But I also know that to a lot of speakers nowadays, "It's time you sell ..." would be equally acceptable.

Then again, how can I make that assertion myself?

Anonymous

You can use corpus evidence to see what people say.

Damkerng T.

I chose to link it to my old community wiki post in ell.stackexchange.com/q/49147/3281.

:D

Anonymous

corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=41518459 - corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=41518457

Damkerng T.

262 (past subjunctive form) : 130 (present subjunctive form)

Anonymous

> King speaks the truth. It's time we stop being patient. It's time we stand up for ourselves.

Anonymous

06:10

> "It 's time we stand up to the conservatives," said Barbara Brandt, a parish administrator at a UCC church in Reinbeck, Iowa. "We're as Christian as they are."

Anonymous

> It's time we put the scalpel away and get out the machete because Washington is clearly not getting the message that you sent.

Anonymous

What do you suppose put is? ;-)

Damkerng T.

I think it's present subjective form.

jimsug

present subjunctive, if I absolutely had to say.

Damkerng T.

(i.e. I think it should be "It's time we be ...", "It's time he stop ..." if the speaker wants to use the present form)

Anonymous

06:11

I'm not sure about this subjunctive business, but my point is that the present and past forms aren't distinguished for put, so we can't tell.

jimsug

@snailboat Yeah, but I'd guess present based on get out

Damkerng T.

Oh, right.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I find that unlikely.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... so it's just the normal present form?

"It's time we are ...", "It's time he stops ..."?

Anonymous

It would usually be is/are etc., though be is probably possible in some dialects

Anonymous

06:13

I mean, even more usually, it'd be was/were :-)

Anonymous

But ignoring that.

jimsug

It'd be difficult to read a change of tense in such a sentence:

> It's time we got the message and read the newspaper.

:/

Anonymous

COCA has "Martha, I think it's time you be going" in a work of fiction.

Damkerng T.

Oh! :D

Anonymous

I'm not sure what dialect is intended in that quote. In genuine AAVE, I wouldn't expect habitual be there.

jimsug

06:15

Hmm.

Damkerng T.

As I noted in my comment on another answer, both Huddleston & Pullum and Quirk et al say that we do not say "It's time I/he were in bed" but"It's time I/he was in bed". 'Was' is indicative. In that 'I/he' is not in bed at the time of the utterance, it seems not unreasonable to think of this as a hypothetical statement. Quirk et al specifically say "... hypothetical past or indicative form replace subjunctive 'were'". H & P say of It "is time you were in bed" that it is "straightforwardly counterfactual... but it hardly allows an irrealis 'It is time I were in bed'". — tunny Oct 27 '14 at 21:27

A-ha!

So, it's clear about the past form. It's still not clear (to me) about the present form.

Anonymous

Note that H&P don't posit a mood system, or at least not an inflectional one, and don't use the term indicative

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

Too bad tunny didn't give us page numbers.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

06:27

Were is special, by the way.

Anonymous

The was/were contrast is not made with any other verb.

Damkerng T.

Indeed. I think to be is the best test, if we want to figure out what it is.

Anonymous

Quirk et al 1985 p.1013 and Huddleston & Pullum 2002 p.1004 ← page numbers I dug up for tunny's quote :-)

Damkerng T.

I don't know which is more acceptable between "It's time he be" or "It's time he is".

@snailboat A-ha! :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Subjunctive be and irrealis were are not in alternation. Were is not the past form of be.

Damkerng T.

06:30

I think these terms are tangled somewhat: irrealis, counterfactual, hypothetical, and theoretical

Anonymous

That's one reason it's a mistake to call them by the same label. You might confuse people into think they're used similarly.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The latter is more likely.

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

So it's just the normal present form vs. past form.

(I guess Quirk might call them present indicative and past indicative.)

Anonymous

Quirk et al call the were form the "past (or were-) subjunctive"

Anonymous

06:35

Rather more traditional than H&P

Damkerng T.

I meant the acceptable forms of "It's time X did/do(es) something".

Argh! I wish I had H&P within my reach. :D

Anonymous

06:55

Oh, I see

Anonymous

"The were-subjunctive cannot replace the hypothetical past in constructions introduced by It's time (that), eg: It's time I was in bed." (Quirk et al 1985, p.1013)

Anonymous

"This construction differs from the others in that it hardly allows an irrealis: It is time he was/?were in bed." (H&P 2002, p.1004)

Anonymous

H&P use the term irrealis where Quirk et al use the term were-subjunctive

Anonymous

I'm still going through Vance 2008. It's nice to have the opportunity to read it cover-to-cover :-)

Damkerng T.

The Sound of Japanese!

Anonymous

07:04

It's not terribly long, so I don't really need my own copy to read through it, but I plan on referring to it more often :-)

Anonymous

I think there's a parallel between Japanese and Spanish:

Anonymous

Japanese /b, d, g/ have the voiced fricatives [β, ð, ɣ] as rapid speech allophones, occurring between vowels

Anonymous

(or between a vowel and a semivowel)

Anonymous

And sometimes weaken even further to the approximants [ʋ, ɹ, ɰ]

Damkerng T.

Hmm... what are /b, d, g/? Plosives?

Anonymous

07:09

Yes, that's right, often just called 'stops'

Anonymous

Voiced bilabial, voiced alveolar, and voiced velar stops.

Damkerng T.

So, voiced fricatives [β, ð, ɣ] would be something close, but somewhat different, I think.

Sometimes I think of pronunciation as dancing.

Anonymous

They have almost the same upper articulator category in each case, but [ð] is classified as having dental upper articulation, while [d] is classified as having alveolar upper articulation

Anonymous

westonruter.github.io/ipa-chart/keyboard

Anonymous

The categories listed along the top are the upper articulators

Damkerng T.

07:12

The choreographer may want the dancers to dance in some specific ways, but the real performance would depend on the dancers, which may be a little different from the planned choreograph.

Anonymous

Basically from front to back, although 'glottal' doesn't actually make sense in this category

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I like that :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe! Thanks!

Anonymous

A symbol doesn't fully specify how the sound is produced, of course

Anonymous

English [t] and Japanese [t] are different, for example

Anonymous

07:14

But the same symbol [t] is usually used for both

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I've just noticed that they place Greek letters on the chart systematically!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh! Yes, I think that's right :-)

Damkerng T.

Hooray! 15000 points get!

Anonymous

Articulation is generally described with a "lower articulator-upper articulator" pattern, so

Anonymous

In apico-alveolar, the combining form apico- tells us that you use the tip of your tongue

Anonymous

07:19

And the alveolar part tells us it goes on the alveolar ridge, which is the ridge behind the teeth

Anonymous

And English [t] is actually [t̺] (or [t̺ʰ])

Anonymous

The little thingy under the t tells you that it's apical.

Anonymous

Even in close transcriptions, that's rarely included because it's generally not necessary

Anonymous

People choose how much detail they want to include in their transcriptions.

Damkerng T.

Is there any [t] that isn't apical in some languages?

Anonymous

07:20

Yes! Japanese, for example.

Damkerng T.

Hah! Hmm...

Anonymous

In Japanese, it's lamino-alveolar.

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Anonymous

And that's indicated with a little box under the letter: [t̻]

Anonymous

I hope I've got those diacritics right. I was having some software trouble getting them to render properly before.

Anonymous

07:21

They should show up right under the letters.

Anonymous

Now, when articulation is laminal, it means you're using the part of the tongue just behind the tip.

Anonymous

Called the blade of the tongue.

Anonymous

So Japanese [t̻] is actually different from English [t̺]!

Damkerng T.

I think that's the normal position of Thai /t/, too. Though it could be either position.

Anonymous

But they sound very similar.

Damkerng T.

07:23

Yes!

Because Thai "ch" is laminal, I think Thai /t/ would be laminal too when it's close to a "ch".

Anonymous

A learner probably doesn't need to be taught to use the exact articulation in question, because they sound similar enough they probably won't cause confusion. The aspiration is more important, I think.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

As you know, English aspiration is quite different from Japanese! :-)

Damkerng T.

A-ha! I think I now have a better explanation why I always think Thai /t/ is not English /t/.

@snailboat Eh?

Anonymous

Oh! As you perhaps do not know!

Anonymous

07:25

English is more aspirated than Japanese.

Damkerng T.

Ah, right. :D

I mean, I don't I know-know, but I think I sorta know. :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Because one is apical and one is laminal?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yes! Their normal positions are different!

Previously, I only thought of the amount of aspiration.

Anonymous

Japanese does have aspiration in word-initial position and on accented morae, but it's weak aspiration. I don't know how it sounds to Thai ears.

Damkerng T.

When it's weak enough, it will sound like it's an unaspirated one.

Anonymous

07:28

sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009544700600012X

Damkerng T.

For example, it's common to transcribe the "t" in さいたま with the unaspirated "t" (ต) in Thai.

Anonymous

> We conclude that Japanese voiceless stops have an intermediate degree of aspiration and constitute an exception to the short lag and long lag dichotomy of voiceless stops said to characterize many languages.

Anonymous

> For each talker we assessed the VOT in 44 voiceless stops, including 12 for /p/, 12 for /t/, and 20 for /k/. We found that Japanese VOT for /p/, /t/, and /k/ was 30.0, 28.5, and 56.7 ms, respectively, and longer than the VOT of two short lag comparison groups and shorter than the VOT of two long lag comparison groups.

Anonymous

I think I linked you to some other VOT measurements in the past

Damkerng T.

Yes! I remember that.

Anonymous

07:29

When I'm transcribing Japanese, I rarely indicate aspiration

Anonymous

To be fair, my ear for aspiration is probably not as good as yours :-)

Damkerng T.

We have to do that in Thai because we have to. :-)

I guess it's just like articles in English, we always have to pick one. :D

Anonymous

Japanese tends to sound relatively unaspirated to my ear.

Anonymous

But it's more aspirated than, say, Spanish.

Damkerng T.

On the other hand, I think when "t" is at the beginning of a name, we never (I think) transcribe it with the unaspirated "t", we use the "aspirated t" for it. For example, タミヤ --> ทามิยะ (with the aspirated t -- ท).

Anonymous

07:32

Oh!

Anonymous

So you do (potentially?) hear the distinction.

Damkerng T.

I guess the likelihood of a Thai hearing a Japanese t as unaspirated is increased when it's in the middle.

@snailboat I think so. :D

But they are the same phoneme in Japanese!

Anonymous

Yes, that's true! Aspiration is not phonemic in Japanese. But pitch accent is, and aspiration is a secondary correlate of accent

Damkerng T.

0

Q: Sentence Ambiguity

"While driving" and "At home" refer to Sara or William? William is aware that Sarah told him not to call her while driving. William is aware that Sarah told him not to call her at home.

sentence-meaning

Anonymous

Hmm, what's a good name with accented non-initial /t/…

Damkerng T.

07:36

Reading the examples several times could give you a headache. :P

Anonymous

麟太郎?

Anonymous

ja.forvo.com/search/%E9%BA%9F%E5%A4%AA%E9%83%8E

Anonymous

I guess that should be unaccented

Anonymous

But a longer name with 太郎 should be accented on the /t/

Anonymous

(Well, on the mora starting with /t/)

Damkerng T.

07:39

@snailboat If I use my Thai ear, that "t" would be a funny unaspirated "t". :-)

Anonymous

Maybe we can find someone to pronounce キャベツ太郎 :-)

Anonymous

キャベツ太郎【20円】株式会社菓道駄菓子コレクション#24

►

Anonymous

Thanks, YouTube!

Anonymous

At like 0:06 or 0:07 or so!

Anonymous

In theory, that t should be aspirated

Damkerng T.

07:41

nods -- I think I could hear it either way.

Anonymous

This video is making me laugh for some reason :-)

Damkerng T.

And that just gives me an interesting observation!

@snailboat I guess so!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I did actually have to re-read those, but I think Khan is basically right.

Damkerng T.

As a Thai (though I can't speak for others, I think this is more or less true in general), there are two cues we'd use to judge the aspiration.

@snailboat I think so.

The two cues are the amount/duration of ejection and the amount of pinchness (if that's a word) we can perceive.

Anonymous

But we expect a fairly weak aspiration on that /t/, around 30ms mean, which I think is less than you expect in Thai, isn't it?

Anonymous

07:44

@DamkerngT. What does pinchness mean?

Anonymous

I assume the 'ejection' refers to the period of relatively faster airflow while the sound is unvoiced

Anonymous

Because voicing slows the airflow down.

Damkerng T.

To produce a clear unaspirated "t" (which means there is no ejection of the release of the "t"), we have to tighten our tip or blade of the tongue before we do the plosive.

The tighter our tongue is, the higher so-called "pinchness" is.

Anonymous

Interesting!

Anonymous

I'm not familiar with this.

Damkerng T.

07:46

It's the main strategy to produce a clean unaspirated "t".

Anonymous

I think I can tell what you mean, though.

Anonymous

I'm trying to pronounce [t] with different VOTs

Damkerng T.

But the Japanese "t" seems to allow all possible combinations!

Anonymous

Japanese aspiration is kind of exceptional

Damkerng T.

long airflow, minimal pinching --> a clear aspirated "t"

short or no airflow, strong pinching --> a clear unaspirated "t"

Anonymous

07:48

In my own pronunciation, I always have to focus on aspirating less than normal.

Damkerng T.

strong pinching, some airflow --> a funny unaspirated "t" (to me), e.g. ja.forvo.com/search/%E9%BA%9F%E5%A4%AA%E9%83%8E

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think that's supposed to be unaspirated. It sounds unaspirated to me.

Damkerng T.

minimal pinching, minimal airflow --> another kind of funny unaspirated "t" which could be thought of as an aspirated "t" too (to me), e.g. キャベツ太郎 in the clip

Anonymous

Lemme download it so I can throw it into Praat :-D

Anonymous

I signed up for Forvo so I could download the clips!

Damkerng T.

07:50

@snailboat Yes, I judged it as unaspirated too, but the amount of airflow is more than a normal unaspirated Thai "t", which makes it sound funny to me. :D

Anonymous

A-ha!

Anonymous

Japanese aspiration is of course non-phonemic, and it's subject to some variation.

Anonymous

Enthusiastic or excited pronunciation can produce very strong aspiration!

Damkerng T.

That makes perfect sense!

Anonymous

I'm not sure what effect recording samples for a website has, but I think it's clear that not every clip on Forvo is exactly how someone would say a word in an informal context in connected speech.

Anonymous

07:53

I think clips on Forvo tend to represent careful pronunciation more than normal pronunciation.

CopperKettle

Hi, @snails!

Enjoykin — From My Heart (feat. Виталий Мутко)

►

Russian English. (0:

Anonymous

It looks to me like the VOT on the Forvo clip is around 10ms.

Anonymous

Hi, Kettle o' Copper! :-)

CopperKettle

I'm jsut for a sec... just frm a jog (0:

off to showr

Damkerng T.

Ah, I just missed CopperKettle!

Anonymous

07:57

Oh! Thanks for stopping by!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I can't say for sure, but it sounds to me like the airflow continues after the onset.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Here's the file, you can open it in Praat or your program of choice yourself if you like :-)

Anonymous

It was originally a 32kbit/s 44.1kHz mono MP3, so you can expect some time smearing unfortunately

Damkerng T.

My WaveSurfer is on another PC, so this may take a while. :D

Anonymous

That might also affect how you perceive the audio when you play it back.

Anonymous

08:08

ee.columbia.edu/~dpwe/papers/Drull94-envsmear.pdf

Damkerng T.

The airflow after the onset is inconclusive.

Funny that I hear it a little differently in an audio program.

(Earlier I thought it's "gintaro", now I think it's "rintaro".)

Anonymous

Oh! Yes, it is Rintarō.

Damkerng T.

It's much clearer in audio specialized programs!

Anonymous

Or /riɴtaroʜ/, if you prefer.

Damkerng T.

nods

She made a glottal stop after /riɴtaroʜ/, too!

Anonymous

08:18

Yes, it's quite normal to "cut off" an utterance with a glottal stop in Japanese rather than letting it "fade out" like we so often do in English

Anonymous

The glottal stop is non-phonemic but an important part of the pronunciation of Japanese

Anonymous

It's sometimes said that っ indicates the glottal stop in writing: あっ！ [ʔɑʔ]

Anonymous

Although usually it doesn't :-)

Anonymous

I confess I mix up [ɑ] and [a].

Anonymous

They're allographs in my mind.

Damkerng T.

08:21

I think they would sound the same to a Japanese speaker. :D

Anonymous

Well, Japanese only has one particularly low vowel.

Anonymous

And it's called a "low back vowel", but it's actually somewhat more front than that

Anonymous

So even though it tends to be transcribed [ɑ], it's maybe 1/3rd of the way to [a]

Anonymous

So not too far from the halfway point between [a] and [ɑ]

Anonymous

Anonymous

08:26

Those are the five Japanese vowels in vowel space.

Damkerng T.

Neat!

Anonymous

In connected / rapid speech, they tend to centralize somewhat and fill out the vowel space.

Damkerng T.

A-ha! That explains why Japanese /u/ sounds like that.

Anonymous

Although there are no reduced vowels like the schwa in Japanese, all vowels centralize somewhat.

Anonymous

I wish this section was online on Google Books.

Anonymous

08:28

(alternation between was/were here)

Damkerng T.

I think was is probably more common now in casual speech.

Or probably everywhere but the most formal register.

Anonymous

I use both.

Anonymous

I think I often use were. I'm not entirely aware of how I decide.

Anonymous

Certainly my mother would have expected me to always use were. :-)

Damkerng T.

I suppose so!

Anonymous

08:31

I'm bad at taking pictures of books.

Anonymous

But there you can see the lip position for Japanese /u/.

Anonymous

As for tongue position, it's somewhat fronted relative to a prototypical [ɯ]

Anonymous

Which we can indicate with a little + sign under the letter: [ɯ̟]

Anonymous

I hope I did that one right, too :-)

Damkerng T.

08:33

The page looks perfect! :D

Anonymous

It's supposed to be a + directly under the center of the ɯ.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It is a +, but a very, very tiny one! :D

Anonymous

> The hardest of the five Japanese short vowels to describe is the high back vowel (as in mu 無 'nothingness'), which we'll transcribe phonemically as /u/. To describe it accurately, we need to distinguish lip protrusion from lip compression. In ordinary rounding, the corners of the mouth come forward and protrude. Figure 3-2 illustrates with French /u/, which is normally more strongly rounded than English /u/.

Anonymous

> In compression, on the other hand, the jaw closes and brings the lips together vertically so that the side portions are in contact, but there's no conspicuous protrusion.

Anonymous

The rest you can read in the image above.

Anonymous

08:36

That's why the image has a French /u/ on top and Japanese /u/ beneath, to draw a contrast between lip protrusion and compression.

Damkerng T.

Japanese /u/ is sort of half Thai /u/ half Thai /ɯ/.

No wonder that we use both /u/ and /ɯ/ in our transcription.

(For example, naruto is a /u/, but tsunami is an /ɯ/.)

Anonymous

Yeah, so although it's called a high back unrounded vowel, and the symbol for a high back unrounded vowel is ‹ɯ›, it's not really that back, and its basic lip position is compressed rather than "unrounded"

Anonymous

But the IPA has no symbol for a high central-back compressed vowel

Anonymous

So ‹ɯ› is pressed into service, and the little + sign under the letter tends to be omitted

Damkerng T.

I think "compressed" is exactly the right choice.

nods

Anonymous

08:41

And it totally makes sense that a Thai or Korean speaker would think it wasn't quite a normal [ɯ]

Anonymous

Actually, Korean [ɯ] has a slightly advanced place of articulation :-)

Anonymous

How does it sound to Thai ears?

Damkerng T.

Most likely, either a funny /u/ or a funny /ɯ/. :D

Anonymous

ja.forvo.com/search/%EC%9D%8C%EC%8B%9D

Damkerng T.

But because the standard "a i u e o" was commonly recited as /a/ /i/ /u/ /e/ /o/, I guess /u/ is a little likely, but a Thai listener would think it's a really funny /u/.

Anonymous

08:43

The first and fourth recordings there seem good

Anonymous

음식 is 'food'

Damkerng T.

"dyongshik"?

Anonymous

eumsik

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

You should be able to hear [ɯː]

Damkerng T.

08:45

I didn't hear [ɯː]!

음식 [ko] 4 の発音

Anonymous

Oh, click on the word to go to this page ja.forvo.com/word/%EC%9D%8C%EC%8B%9D/#ko

Damkerng T.

Ah, so that's #1.

Anonymous

That way you can click the 1st and 4th recordings :-)

Damkerng T.

I can't make out #2 because it's so faint.

Anonymous

Yeah, #2 and #3 are hard to hear.

Damkerng T.

08:46

The same for #3.

Anonymous

By the way, Japanese ɯ is even further forward after any of [s, z, n]

Damkerng T.

#4 sounds like [?]-um-shik.

(The "um" is [ɯ], I think.)

But I'm not sure what comes before "um".

Anonymous

Yes, I was trying to give you a word with ɯ :-)

Damkerng T.

Actually, that words reminds me of how they pronounce "music" on their TV shows. :P

Anonymous

Do you mean music loaned from English into Korean?

Anonymous

08:50

Or do you mean 음악?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Before a singer or a band performs, the host (MC) usually says "Music start!"

Anonymous

Ah!

Damkerng T.

See if I can find an example. :D

Anonymous

음악 has [ɯ] too, so I wasn't sure :-)

Anonymous

I don't know how English music is rendered in Korean loanword phonology

Anonymous

08:52

I have the Japanese system pretty well internalized, so I don't usually have to think about it, but the Korean system, not so much

Anonymous

By the way, I always want to call ‹ɯ› a 'double-u' rather than a 'turned m'.

Anonymous

But that would be confusing. :-)

Damkerng T.

I don't know how to call it, actually!

Anonymous

I don't know why we don't call ‹w› a 'double-v' like the French do.

Anonymous

‹ɯ› is called a 'turned m'.

Anonymous

08:58

'LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED M' (U+026F)

Anonymous

. . . although writing that in caps just now was possibly confusing! :-)

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