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17:12
2
A: How to use "such" and" so much"?

Ahmad A. She worked so that she can earned twice as much as she used to earned. So emphasizes the degree or amount of something, then it should mean she worked very hard so that she succeed to earn twice as much as she used to earn. B. She worked such that she can earned twice as much as she u...

Not the best answer in the world, but I think it's in the right direction.
Strangely, enough. Though "so that" and "such that" don't mean exactly the same thing (I read "so that" as about "in order that", and "such that" as about "in such a manner/way that"), I think replacing "so that" with "such that" works most of the times.
However...
Many speakers seem not to accept this use (of "such that" in the place of "so that"):
For example,
> Sorry, you are wrong. It should be "Set up the bottles so that they are in a straight line". "Such that" would be totally wrong here.

From Rebecca Mayer - English language teacher and author of grammar books.
I would use so that too, but does Set up the bottles such that they are in a straight line really wrong?
Here is a definition of such that given by Collins English Dictionary:
such that: so that: used to express purpose or result ⇒ power such that it was effortless
There, such that means so that!
A little below that definition, there are three examples. Two are a different kind of such that (I think replacing it with so that doesn't work in these examples).
> But the state of my health is such that a return to Ancelstierre seems prudent, away from this inclement air.
Garth Nix LIRAEL: DAUGHTER OF THE CLAYR (2001)
> The level of absurdity is such that nothing can be believed, or is believed any more, except the old reliables.
Robert Wilson THE COMPANY OF STRANGERS (2002)
The third is more interesting:
> The strongest belief will always win, but doubts can water down any belief such that it isn't very effective.
Anita Anderson SUMMER OF SECRETS (2003)
It seems like so that works in this third sentence, too.
Still, I agree that I'd recommend this in academic writing: just stick with so that when you mean "in order to", "for the purpose of", etc.
This article (which is a great read) seems to say the same thing, but in more details:
> "such that" is used in the modification of nouns. It is usually used to mean something like ``of a type that":
> (4) During the experiments, a thick layer of insulating material was wrapped around the tube in a manner such that the loss of heat to the external environment was minimized.
> [...]
> In the above sentence, it is important to note that "such that..." does not modify "wrapped." This is a common misconception, and it results in some very strange sentences, such as the following:
> (5*) In our preliminary study, we ignored the convection term such that we could easily determine the behavior in the small γ regime.
> Here, the intended meaning is that this term was ignored to allow for determination of the behavior in question, but since grammatically "such that..." modifies "term," the actual meaning of the sentence is quite strange. The simplest way to fix this sentence is to replace "such that" by "so that." If this is done, the phrase "so that we..." acts correctly as an adverb, modifying "ignored."
Totally agreed.
But I'd keep my opinion open on such that.
Because if I said that such that for so that is always wrong, I would have to say that Anita Anderson's sentence above is wrong too.
> The strongest belief will always win, but doubts can water down any belief such that it isn't very effective.
17:37
@DamkerngT. Blind leading the blind, um, I mean, Persian leading the Persian.
:P
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I wish both answers had been a little better.
I would've answered it if you asked me, but 1) I know you wouldn't. and 2) I don't answer that guy's questions.
The question is also a good counter-example showing that error correction by having the leaner's sentences corrected is not always the best way to learn error correction.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M :D
If I were a teacher, and I wanted to be tough (not mean, that's different), hearing this:
> She worked so that she can earned twice as much as she used to earned.
I might keep asking repeatedly "What do you mean?" or "What would you want it to mean?"
until they're clear about their intended meaning
before we'd get down to the correction.
Can earned is one of the most ridiculous verbs I've ever heard/seen/touched/smelled/tasted/sensed.
nods
1
Q: Eradicate comma splice

Duncan CarrI saw the following (what I believe to be a) comma splice in an advert this morning and was wondering how you would go about remedying it. Be a part of it, visit [web address] Would it be better to substitute the comma for a dash?

I still don't know what ad that was.
17:48
@DamkerngT. Maybe a banner in their home neighborhood?
By banner I mean spam and by neighborhood I mean a native site.
Probably. The comment and StoneyB's answer surprised me.
Curious, why do you feel the need to eradicate it? Your question seems to imply that there's something wrong with this usage of the comma. — Catija 9 hours ago
1
A: Eradicate comma splice

StoneyBThere is no need to fix this. The "rule" against comma splices only comes into play in fairly formal discourse where joining long phrases or clauses with a comma instead of an explicit conjunction (an and or a conjunctive point) may lead the reader to expect a list. You want to avoid creating fa...

I reached this through the VLQ queue. While I'm hard-pressed to fit one of the template comments here, I believe this answer is not what Jeff & Joel had in mind when they attempted to make internet a better place. This answer is not in a very good shape in its current form; doesn't meet our quality standards. I wish you knew this and I hope you expand it more, into a real SE answer. Thank you. — inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M 45 secs ago
@DamkerngT. Not sure why Stoney's answer is surprising.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Because it says that "Be a part of it, visit abc.xyz/."; is good as is.
I believe so.
Wow! The chat room added that semicolon automatically!
The problem is I don't think so.
17:53
Wouldn't you expect that from, me?
If I wrote something like that in chat?
Then again, we have things like parataxis.
Is that edible?
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Lately, I think ELL could use a little friendlier comments.
Attitude can be courageous.
in ELL's Cabin, 19 hours ago, by Damkerng T.
@snailboat Indeed. I remember that it was friendlier.
Oh, funny how my Autoincorrect worked.
I meant, attitude can be contagious.
18:14
@DamkerngT. You mean mine wasn't friendly? :'(
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I said that in general.
I don't know the background of the interaction between Chad and you, so I can't really judge.
You still mean mine wasn't friendly. :'(
But I wish to see something a little friendlier. :-)
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
Argh! Are you going to turn into Hulk?!
18:16
Mulk. Molecule hulk, that is.
It was just my feelings, though.
I was just playing. I know you're really passionate about me . . . I mean ELL.
Unlike me.
Hmm... your comment shows that you care, too.
Nah, I dunno what got into me that made me write it. Worried
It's just, I don't know why, it seems like a lot of users seem to have got Stack Exchange Fatigue Syndrome.
in ELL's Cabin, 20 hours ago, by snailboat
Stack Exchange Fatigue Syndrome!
18:21
That's a lot of users in SO.
Not just you or me.
nods
ELL's problem is some little portion of its users.
Because of tis nature, it attracts jerks (this side and that side) more than, say, chem.SE.
BTW @Dam there's nothing going on between me and any of the users on the main site.
Except Nima, but that's a one-side hate.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Ah, good! -- Oh!
> @Wesley if I might offer some advice... If this stuff - the questions, the community - if it starts to get to you that way, take a break. This should be fun; something you do for the love of the topic, of the profession, in hope of building resources that are better than the ones you had to learn from. If it isn't fun any more, stop doing it.
I had to take a break from SO years back for the same reason; I was starting to get really bitter about the people. You see too much crap, too many arguments about crap, too many folks saying things they can't take back over things that have no value.
:D
Something from Meta.SE?
18:30
- Shog9
in The Comms Room, Apr 15 at 4:10, by Shog9
@Wesley if I might offer some advice... If this stuff - the questions, the community - if it starts to get to you that way, take a break. This should be fun; something you do for the love of the topic, of the profession, in hope of building resources that are better than the ones you had to learn from. If it isn't fun any more, stop doing it.
So, I am enjoying this. If there's something bitter, I enjoy flagging it. The same goes for you.
But doesn't for some ELLers.
For example, do you imagine @snail visit here if it's not a fun room for her?
Of course not.
That's why @snail took short periods off the chat.
And I'm pinging @snail so she'd get lots of inbox messages.
@snail
I'm trying to make her - @snail - ban me from chat.
@snail.
K that's six inbox messages.
It'd do.
I don't completely agree with the downvotes or flagging system. It's always after-the-act. I just wish that Be Nice is enough.
(Be Nice is not the same as Let's neglect things or Let's turn our eyes away, though, imho.)
Let's neglect things.
That's 21 chars.
2 space chars.
Oh! That means a lot.
18:36
One code 12 char.
and 18 code 11 chars.
Or maybe the other way around.
Oh, I just realized that I've never really thought of SE as "fun" before!
@Dam I just added a new stat to my profile: Profile picture description. I'll update it every time I update my profile pic.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Oh! :-)
@DamkerngT. Then what the heck are you doing here?
I think of SE as "useful".
18:44
Helping and learning?
Though admittedly, sometimes it's fun, too. :-)
Well, pinging @snail is fun.
> Current profile picture: [5.5.5.5]fenestrane
Having her admit her inbox is spammed is even more fun. @snail
You know, your profile looks fun in my language!
18:46
Oh crud.
Because, 5 is pronounced "ha" in Thai. :-)
"Hahahaha! fenestrane." :D
Good thing fenestrane doesn't mean "porn" or something in Thai.
LOL
Well, Thai "porn" means blessing. :P
Of course.
@DamkerngT. Ha.Ha.Ha.Ha fenestrane
18:48
There's a difference.
That seems like @JimR crying.
The punctuation!
Talking about flagging...
121
Q: Flags in chat are defective by design

Benjamin GruenbaumYes, I know the topic has been discussed before. I know that Meta already has threads that complain about how flagging doesn't work. I wanted to give a practical example. Today, a user came in to the JavaScript chat and asked the following question: Hey guys, as soon as I embed javascript,...

I wanna flag your message.
Hah! :-)
@DamkerngT. He's right. The solution is to give everyone with the combination of inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M as their username full chat mod powers.
Downvoting and flagging are based on one assumption, if we think about it.
It's about the idea that not everyone is always nice, and once they are not nice, not every time we can talk things out.
Which is, sadly, true.
Imho, an upvote-only system should be sufficient.
But we make use of what we have.
19:03
No way.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Really? Give it more thought.
Do you really believe all of the questions with 0 upvotes and all of the answers with 0 upvotes don't deserve one?
Hmm... I'm not sure what you mean.
They don't deserve an upvote or a downvote?
If there weren't any downvote system, there would've never been a way to distinguish them from blatantly wrong answers, which stand at -1 to -5 on ELL.
8 mins ago, by Damkerng T.
It's about the idea that not everyone is always nice, and once they are not nice, not every time we can talk things out.
19:06
That's a people's problem.
In my idea, nice people wouldn't post a blatantly wrong answer.
They would be the not nice they are, even if we remove anything marking a bad post/comment.
@DamkerngT. That means I and you aren't nice people.
If they're unsure about their answer, they'd make it clear about that.
@DamkerngT. Demonstrating confusion isn't helpful to a confused OP.
Go on! I'm gonna keep making too much sense.
Basically, in my idea, an upvote-only system can work if all of us focus more on upvoting.
Bad answers will be left at 0 votes.
19:08
The point is, those bad remarks are a necessity in moderation of any community-driven website.
@DamkerngT. You're speaking about an ideal world. Sigh
Wish it sufficed.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Oh, you're talking about when bad guys came in, right?
There isn't necessarily bad guys, just bad posts/comments/chat messages.
It could be a troll/jerk, but it could also be someone who's not in the mood that day.
I've been a flag-worthy user at least twice in ELL's chats.
Hmm... don't bad posts/comments/messages come from bad users?
Bad, or uneducated users.
The souls that aren't familiar with the rules.
Let's assume that we have a more flexible chat room (that is, we can add any features that we think make sense to it)
and the guy who posted a bad message wasn't a really bad guy
what would be a logical thing for the guy to do once they realized that they did a not very nice thing?
19:13
Burn themselves?
That could be one possibility! But I guess that's a little too much.
Also the bad message is still there.
@DamkerngT. Apologizing.
I believe that most people would do the same thing the guy in the Comms room did. Apologize and try to undo what they did, maybe request to delete their own messages.
Yes!
That's what most people do, without any real intervention needed.
But the system doesn't allow that.
We can apologize but the messages are still there.
19:16
So, what's wrong with flagging them?
Which is okay, more or less, if everyone moves on.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M It's about they flag it themselves vs. other people flag it.
So, what's wrong with other people flagging them?
We still need mods to clean things up and ban people sometimes when it's needed to be done.
What's wrong? Hmm...
122
Q: Flags in chat are defective by design

Benjamin GruenbaumYes, I know the topic has been discussed before. I know that Meta already has threads that complain about how flagging doesn't work. I wanted to give a practical example. Today, a user came in to the JavaScript chat and asked the following question: Hey guys, as soon as I embed javascript,...

This time, the flaggers were uneducated.
16
Q: Users with 100% flag decline rates will never know their flags are being declined if they flag infrequently

BoltClock's a UnicornThe flag warning is shown to a user based on flag statistics within a window of 7 days. This means that flag warnings, and by extension flag bans, are optimized for users who flag a lot. Besides the flag warning, the only other way for a user to access their flag history via the UI is through th...

Bring. It. On!
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M See? Now we hinge our trust on the punishers, not the users themselves.
19:19
The most harm that can come from users' flagging is a 30-mins ban from chat.
Which is actually really short IMO.
The nice guy would accept that as their punishment.
The troll couldn't care less.
I think when we hurt people, good people hurt more than bad people.
Just my idea.
My idea could be counter-intuitive at times. But I don't want you to accept or reject it right away.
But the nice guy will accept it and try to be more constructive next time.
You don't even have to consider it, really. :-)
Robot fantasy.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M That's a normal, reasonable guy.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M You think so?
19:22
Yeah, bring this up in meta and suffer -40-something, hehe!
I don't know. Is Meta.SE the true solution?
I mean, yes, it's the system we use here, and I accept the system.
There's always a smart reason to downvote you if you propose a big change.
But SE shouldn't be the only possible system we can have Internet-wide.
Unless you're a very old user, a very meta user, which means you know a lot about what you're talking about.
Have you heard the term Stockholm syndrome before?
Hmm... I think I misremembered the name of the syndrome.
19:25
@DamkerngT. Tell me more.
There is a nice name for a situation when people work as a group for a period of time, they will develop some group beliefs.
What's interesting is that sometimes such group beliefs are not logical.
You have watched World War Z, I think?
That's the very reason they need the 10th man.
So you wanna be the 10th robot?
I just try to think along another line of thought. :D
19:28
However, some big changes get lots of votes. For that, you need to sound very very well-intended, like an angel.
But the purpose of the 10th man is constructive, not destructive, BTW.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I don't have a real motive to push any real changes.
But one thing that strikes me is the way SE users interact with each other, which is somewhat unique, imho.
(BTW, it's much better than some other social network sites.)
@DamkerngT. On the main sites, it should ideally be limited to (hel.lo. I am ei robot).
@Dam I feel you need to spend some time in meta.
I remember that snailboat posted a paper about a study on the effect of downvoting. I think the paper used SE as the subject of the study.
19:32
Hah!
I remember that the paper discussed the negative effects of downvoting.
@Dam whenever you felt bored, I suggest you go to votes, then the last page, and watch some drama show and learn the reasons some ideas get rejected.
It's kinda useful if you wanna understand the reason behind some stuff.
Well, like I said, this is purely theoretical. No movement.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M The reason is one thing. The effect is another. Right?
Right. There's always side-effects.
If the system were perfect, there'd be no need for any improvement, at all.
The same goes to programming. We get new languages, new libraries, new systems, new paradigms every year.
19:36
Every minute.
Every year was back @ Edison's time @Dam.
New things don't necessarily mean that the old things are wrong. It's just that someone, particularly the inventors, must've thought new things are better in some ways.
It would be nice if I could find that paper.
Well, I know the negative part.
Whingeing.
Hmm... It was more complicated than that.
They take downvotes personally, and that's when you get pop-corns and name-calling.
Darn . . .
Reaching the vote limit is the only aspect of a lot of voting that sucks.
4
Q: What is the correct usage of 'if' and 'when'?

MeanGreenWhile translating some technical documentation, I came across this dilemma. Which is better in the below examples? The value is true if electrical and mechanical damage are covered The value is true when electrical and mechanical damage are covered I've read some similar questions about ...

> I've read some similar questions about the usage of the word 'if', but it felt like the answers posted there don't apply here.
Hmm... dunno. I think we have relevant old questions.
19:47
Whee! Close to 500 first-post reviews on chem.
20:00
@Dam I'm going to bed, here's a PUZZLE:
23
Q: SIGINT Challenge #2 - Alien Message

2012rcampionI have a strange problem that you may be able to help me with. I was recently hired by company that manages several communications satellites, and I've gotten stuck with the overnight shift. Earlier this week I was getting some weird interference on the C-band receiver during a pass sometime af...

Nice! :D
I'm sure that we would be able to crack the code if they sent us a real one. :D
20:12
Oh @Dam, here's something I observed in meta.SE today.
-5
Q: Set limit on rep from a question

FlyingLightningI feel like there should be a limit to how many points you can earn from asking a question. The thought process behind this is that you don't deserve an insane amount of points for asking a simple question. Yes, it is necessary for those questions to be asked and for people to earn points off the...

They are a nice guy.
They didn't go flaming, they simply wanna discuss stuff.
The Meta.SE is implemented in such a way that one possible feedback of the discussion is in the form of downvote to mean disagreement.
Though it's a little ambiguous, imho.
@DamkerngT. Yes.
Justified downvotes there only mean disagreement.
That's why they're a lot.
Upvotes mean agreement, and that's why they're sometimes a lot too.
Let's do some math.
This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful
Hmm  . . . My number of downvotes in meta.SE is twice the combined number of my downvotes in the whole SE network. (Of course, excluding meta)
@DamkerngT. They kept it for the same reason there are unobtainable bounty badges on per site metas.
20:37
0
A: Sentence Correction - Pronoun usage

Scott DartThe easiest way to think about this is to split the two people into two different sentences, like this: "It ought to be him with whom you share your secrets." "It ought not to be I with whom you share your secrets." Therefore, your correct sentence is: "It ought to be him with whom...

Huh?
> "It ought to be him with whom you share your secrets, not I."
PEU 131.2
> It is I who am responsible. (formal)
> It's me that's/who's responsible. (informal)
21:34
/me lucky bastard @Dam. XD
OK OK, so it's a lot of repz in a question you answer that becomes a HNQ. Now tell me, how many repz are in answering a meta.SE discussion that is featured network-wide?
MWAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHHHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAA!
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I don't have even the slightest idea that Meta.SE can go network-wide.
@DamkerngT. Take a look at the "featured on meta" tab on ELL.
Oh, that!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Wow, that sounds really stiff.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Not sure. But a lot, I think.
Anonymous
21:45
In natural English: "You should tell him, not me."
@DamkerngT. 7 upboats as of now.
I think the OP's sentences make everything sound wrong.
21
Q: How do we encourage edits to obsolete/out of date answers?

bluefeetAs the network ages and we have answers that are 7+ years old, we run into situations where changes in technology, etc. result in a once great answer becoming out-of-date, obsolete, or somewhat problematic. We don’t want to lose or delete these answers, due to legacy applications that still need...

@DamkerngT. The OP's sentence seem like they're coming from Dracula, 1892.
> It ought to be him with whom you share your secrets, not me.
Hmm, what's so special about that year? - thinking
21:47
@snailboat BTW, do you feel better now?
@DamkerngT. BTW what's your idea about that meta post thingy?
ELL won't really need it though.
Anonymous
I'm feeling a little better :-)
@snailboat YayQ
I mean yay!
How did I end up typing yayQ?
@snail admit it.
21:50
The keys are near to each other?
Anonymous
Yes, Q is !'s neighbor.
@DamkerngT. It's a QWERTY keyboard . . . yeah.
@SNAIL ADMIT IT!
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Hmm.. maybe just keep it.
Anonymous
I use rather formal sounding sentences from time to time, but I don't think I'd be caught dead with a "It ought to be him with whom you share your secrets, not I."
21:51
@SNAIL ADMIT. IT!
Anonymous
Admit what, exactly?
That my pings made you feel a little better.
Anonymous
Well, they made me feel inboxier.

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