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01:43
A good portion of questions on ELL are about shades of meanings of synonymous or closely related words.
I think there are a few cause patterns of these questions.
- Some askers seem to just want it. (Maybe their dictionaries do not explain the meanings sufficiently well. Maybe they force themselves or are forced to use these words before they are ready--like in exam preps.)
- Some askers seem to have run into the word in an article or a piece of writing and couldn't make sense of the word. (This is possibly related to the first group.)
- Some askers seem to want to choose the best word they can in their own writing.
Still, every answerer seems to agree that the best way to learn words is to read more, to understand words in context.
I think learning words and learning grammar are somehow similar to each other.
All learners want to spend the least possible amount of effort to learn, and want to maximize the results.
Grammar rules appear to help.
(Everything is summarized as rules. Know the rules, know the language, they think.)
So, why spend such a huge amount of time finding new words in context? Why not just find lists of words and force-feed those words into their brain?, some of them think.
So we have flashcards. Lots of them.
Is there a better way?
A way that still has learners learn things in context, but at the same time reduces the amount of over-learning (i.e. squeezing the over-redundancy one may get before they can run into a new grammar point, or a new word or phrase).
To be revisited...
14 mins ago, by Damkerng T.
- Some askers seem to want to choose the best word they can in their own writing.
BTW, questions in this group can look very much like proofreading requests.
02:18
0
Q: Conditionals used with past tense in one sentence

roka114I have been aiming at creating a facture which would give an impression of flowing jelyfish. I don't know if tenses were used correctlly. I mean second part mainly because I want there conditional, not future tense. I mean done facture! I see my effords laying on my chair!

For later: this kind of question may be worth a discussion.
> The remarks from the senior officials were part of what has been a steady drumbeat of bellicose comments toward Iraq this week, including remarks by Mr. Bush that have cheered many conservatives and worried some European and Arab allies. A number of European leaders this week called on Mr. Bush not to pursue a precipitate military course against Iraq.
I agree that comments toward sounds odd. comments aimed at might be more idiomatic (in AmE). — Brian Hitchcock 7 hours ago
An interesting comment.
Inspired by this bounty question: verb - Use of "go" in passive form...
Which of these is transitive?
> He walked two yards.
> She traveled three miles.
> They went a few blocks.
 
1 hour later…
Anonymous
03:28
Maybe quasi-transitive, since the complements don't have all the properties of real objects.
Anonymous
Or just, y'know, not transitive.
Anonymous
But they're kind of objecty.
04:40
@DamkerngT. (the?) "Two yards", "three miles" and "a few blocks" could be locational adjuncts, IMHO
Or maybe degree adjuncts
1
Q: Understanding the come out phrasal

D.BFrom the Godfather: Frank Pentagelli came to the party organized by Michael Corleone from New Yourk and met there Fredo. He said: Frank: Fredo, Fredo you son-of-a-bitch you look great. Fredo: Frank Pentagelli, I though you was never coming out west, you big buml. My question is abou...

Interesting question. I wonder what's the official name for such "out west", "out east" constructions.
05:24
Me too.
Anonymous
@CopperKettle It's interesting. I thought they looked like complements.
Anonymous
@CopperKettle They do seem more like they indicate degree than location.
Anonymous
For starters, all three are scalar. None indicate a direction, although all three can occur alongside a phrase indicating direction.
Anonymous
Also, all three phrases can take singular agreement, as measure phrases generally can:
Anonymous
> Two yards is a long way to walk.
> Three miles is a long way to travel.
> A few blocks is a long way to go.
Anonymous
05:30
Compare:
Anonymous
> Ten pounds of cabbage is a lot of cabbage!
Anonymous
> Ten billion dollars is a lot of money!
05:59
Posting a message so @Jim doesn't say it's quiet in here.
Ssh
Huh, I wonder if it's shh or ssh.
Anonymous
Well, shh is probably more common.
o/ @snail!
Anonymous
I've certainly seen other people type the 's' multiple times before, though.
06:06
I don't ssh because it's ambiguous for me.
I mean, sure, context resolves it. But why make my brain work harder than it should?
On something like that, anyway.
Anonymous
I read it as ssh first, too, and was confused for a moment.
Anonymous
When I checked chat logs, I expected to find a zillion false positives for ssh
Anonymous
So I searched for sssh and found some examples :-)
And BTW, reading ssh remind me of poop, since the word for poop in Turkish is pronounced as such.
06:09
Well, since I can't be bothered typing ʃʃʃʃʃʃʃ I guess sshhh will just have to do
/me needs to go. Later people!
Also I awkwardly only just realised this is a gallery room, hope I'm not unwanted here :P
@jimsug You're unwanted here.
@Dam says so.
cries in the corner
Anonymous
I joined without asking.
Anonymous
06:13
I'm still not on the list!
Anonymous
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Like The Most Unwanted Music?
11:40
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M @inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M seems to keep practicing the art of saying the opposite of what he means. :-)
@snailboat Looks like I can't add you to the list. It's weird, how the system works!
Ah, that message doesn't go to jimsug!
retrying...
@jimsug inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M seems to keep practicing the art of saying the opposite of what he means. :-)
0
A: How to describe sand falling onto a hard surface

WhatRoughBeastProbably hiss. A light wind carried a film of sand hissing up against our legs, -Gobi, Tracking the Desert, by John Man Nick listened. All his being was consumed with listening. He could hear the sand hissing along the road. The truck creaked. Thieves' Market, by Albert Bezzerides

Oh, sand hisses!?
12:39
1
Q: It happened the same to me as John

olegstLet us suppose something happened first to John and then to me. Is it grammatically correct to say: It happened the same to me as John. And if it is not, how would express this meaning, then?

An interesting information delivery.
> It happened the same to me as John.
All answers in there are correct, more or less, but!
None retains the sequence: happened, same, me, John
Perhaps, as a forced, literal translation (of what the OP had in his mind): What happened was the same to me and to John.
Or perhaps, a little clearer: What happened was the same (both) in my case and John's.
Maybe were would be better.
2
A: To penetrate something, but not physically. Can I use "penetrate" figuratively?

StoneyBWhen you speak figuratively, not literally, you're pretty free to say anything you like. If it makes sense to other people and is a 'happy' way of expressing what you mean, it's fine. However, we would not say that light and space penetrate themselves—that would mean that light penetrates light ...

Reminds me of that sentence: The fire was burning itself.
In Latin the cases are arranged (mostly) 1 nominative, 2 genitive, 3 dative, 4 accusative, 5 ablative. If I want to indicate the function of a word in a sentence I simply use the numbers after the noun, irrelevant of how these functions are called in Latin, German, French or English. — rogermue 1 hour ago
Very interesting!
I wonder how common that practice is.
Would you consider superscripting your tags and replacing the numbers with something a shade more transparent? Our learners are unlikely to have studied Latin, but NOM, GEN, DAT, ACC, ABL are at least in contemporary linguistic use, while your numbers are meaningless outside the western tradition of Latin pedagogy. OE, for instance, usually uses the sequence NOM, ACC, GEN, DAT. Comments won't superscript, but in Answers, you can put you<sup>ACC</sup>and it will display just dandy. — StoneyB 1 hour ago
Ahh
13:02
Heh. I also wondered about those numbers, thought they were typos.
Me too! Another mystery solved!
13:19
It shouldn't have been a mystery to start with, tbh
@Roger Really, the answers should be self-contained. Users should not have to refer to these comments to be able to understand it. Consider StoneyB's suggestion, or at the very least including a key. — jimsug 25 secs ago
Too mean? :/
@jimsug A very sensible comment, IMHO.
Good. I didn't really think it was out of line :L
13:51
Something from GRE test prep book:
> 2. We will face the idea of old age with ____ as long as we believe that it invariably brings poverty, isolation, and illness.
> A. regret B. apprehension C. enlightenment D. veneration E. reverence
I guess it would be obvious to everyone non-Buddhist! :-)
Being a Buddhist, it's very tempting to answer C (for me).
Oh, I should add the link to the book:
> --GRE® Verbal Workbook by Kaplan. (The answer is on page 133.)
apprehension, right?
It really couldn't be anything else.
Other than regret, if the other things were different.
But realizing such an idea is one main part to get to the enlightenment in Buddhism.
And almost everyone when age,
Disease, or sorrows strike him,
Inclines to think there is a God,
Or something very like Him.
(Christianity's take on this is different)
13:59
nods
Oh, oldness is a word.
I can now express the idea (with oldness being a word).
In Buddhism, birth, oldness, illness, and death are the truth (of Dharma).
The Four Noble Truths (Sanskrit: catvāri āryasatyāni; Pali: cattāri ariyasaccāni) are "the truths of the Noble Ones," which express the basic orientation of Buddhism: this worldly existence is fundamentally unsatisfactory, but there is a path to liberation from repeated worldly existence. The truths are as follows: The Truth of Dukkha is that all conditional phenomena and experiences are not ultimately satisfying; The Truth of the Origin of Dukkha is that craving for and clinging to what is pleasurable and aversion to what is not pleasurable result in becoming, rebirth, dissatisfaction, and redeath...
Yes!
The four in Thai are ทุกข์ สมุทัย นิโรธ มรรค.
To realize birth, oldness, illness, and death is to realize dukkha (suffering).
15:06
0
A: lead between the eyes -- what does that mean?

Russell McMahonIt means - use Auditing process R2-45 Standard R2-45 thetan exteriorization tool. [Image from above link]

@CopperKettle Oh, my goodness me!
A witty answer, but I'm afraid unfitting this site. (0:
nods :-)
0
A: Is the following grammatically correct? "Maiden's of Telford"

DJ McMayhemhttp://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/apostro.asp?m=n This link shows all the ways you should use an apostrophe. Rule 2b says Do not use an apostrophe + s to make a regular noun plural. So no, it is incorrect.

Hmm... I don't think the brand name uses 's to mean Maidens.
My guess is that it is acceptable for publicity's sake. Maiden is the surname of one of the business's owners
It's like Maiden's (Transport Business).
Where is this Maiden's? It's Maiden's of Telford.
15:18
Yes, a wordplay. "Maiden's, of Telford" - but with the comma ditched.
nods -- whether it's grammatical, I do not know.
It seems to work for me in full (if that's what it means): Maiden's Transport Business of Telford.
 
1 hour later…
Anonymous
16:28
I don't understand the thing about the comma
I just saw StoneyB's answer. Problem solved. :D
@snailboat Yes, never mind the comma. I was wrong, it turned out. (0:
I thought it was an intentional wordplay.
"I have watched on TV advertising about game, and I already playing this game two days without stoping. It's not normal." -- looks like a wrongly-placed Present Perfect
"I watched a TV ad about a game, and I've been playing this game for two days already without stopping. It's not normal". -- more like it
> "I have watched on TV advertising about game, and I've been already playing this game two days without stoping. It's not normal."
This version would be fine with me.
@DamkerngT. So have watched is okay? (source)
Being me, I accept all of watched, have watched, and had watched in that specific sentence.
The I already playing is more problematic.
16:42
The original copies the Russian "я уже играю" (I am already playing).
@CopperKettle Yes. I suppose it's possible that a game may bombard the viewers with lots of advertisements for a few days or weeks.
Though I think I have seen on TV would sound better (than have watched).
Indeed!
Not sure why, but I feel like using watch with the ads is a little weird.
But I guess it's not really wrong.
@CopperKettle If it's I'm already playing, I think watched (simple past) sounds better.
"Well, I remember seein' some ad
So I turned on my Conelrad
But I didn't pay my Con Ed bill
So the radio didn't work so well"
(Indeed, with ads it's to see)
"Watch is similar to look at, but it usually means that we look at something for a period of time, especially something that is changing or moving"
@CopperKettle Some ads nowadays can run over 3 or 5 minutes!
16:52
@DamkerngT. Great! I haven't watched TV since early May last year (0:
Not many TV shows will include poems, if any at all!
@DamkerngT. Bingo! (0:
But in Russia there's a good TV channel called Kultura, there could be poems (0:
:D
A-ha! That's nice!
From the BBC: "Seeing is noticing something or somebody with your eyes, usually with no explicit intention or purpose behind the action. If you watch something or someone, you look at them deliberately, usually for a longer period."
So it would probably be okay to say: "The participants of the study were asked to watch 3 advertisements and express their opinions"
I think in that context watch is even the right word.
> "In a study of memory, focus, and attention, the participants were asked to watch 3 advertisements. Later, the researchers interviewed the participants to check if they could see three polar bears walking past the scenes in the ads."
^Sentence hacking of the day. :P
17:02
(0:
17:47
2
Q: present continuous or simple present

user5577Is it correct to say We will need a car because we are taking the plane. (tickets have been bought and we are leaving in 2 weeks) or is it better We will need a car because we go by plane.(same condition as the first sentence If both are correct let me know the best sentence. I my...

To me it seemed like both options were technically possible, but a native speaker said that sentence 2 looks awkward.
Maybe "we go by plane" is little logically compatible with "We will need a car"
Interesting...
Anonymous
"We'll need a car because we're going by plane." ← This doesn't seem true on its own, but maybe it would make sense with some additional information. It sounds more natural this way, though.
We weill need a car 'cause we go by plane is somehow awkward to me too.
> Kruger: We go by plane. We'll need a car.
Perfectly logical.
I can imagine something like that in a dialogue, though.
17:57
@snailboat Good evening, and thank you! I don't get the meaning of "seem true"
Hi, Muhammad!
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M A logical molecule! o/
A honeydew molecule!
I should be doing \o rather than o/ since I've been writing TeX recently.
Anonymous
17:59
We go by plane is possible but could be rather weird because it seems to be talking about how they go (somewhere) in general.
Anonymous
It's hard to talk about all this stuff out of context, but...
@snailboat That's what I thought! I thought it would jar with "we'll need a car"
Anonymous
@CopperKettle Well, why would you need a car to go somewhere by plane?
Anonymous
There might be a reason. But they haven't told you that reason yet.
@snailboat To drive to the ariport?
Anonymous
18:00
Well, I wasn't actually asking you, I was just pointing out that we don't know.
Maybe the airport is far from the city, and the train station is in the downtown
Context, context, context!
Anonymous
We don't have to have all the information in order to discuss the sentence, but it certainly makes it easier if we do have some context :-)
Bah, ping @Stoney.
(That's what StoneyB says.)
18:01
@CopperKettle @snail is doing lots of rhetorics lately.
Anonymous
Context would justify (or not justify) the use of "we go by plane".
Anonymous
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M So-called rhetorical questions are part of everyday speech.
I know, I know.
Did you think that I didn't?
Totally a rhetorical thingy. ^
Anonymous
You implied that I'm using them either more than I usually do or more than is usual, which I don't think is the case.
Anonymous
So yes.
18:03
@snailboat You do when you're trying to prove a point to @Copper.
Anonymous
More like: I point out that I wasn't expecting an answer when I get one anyway, because it means I've failed to communicate :-)
Me haven't noticed anything like that. Insufficient data..
Wish there were Unicode characters for rhetoric emoticons. :P
@DamkerngT. Sometimes some people here over-exaggerate stuff, assert false statements and then make fun outta it. Cough
(Rt) <--- TMed
Here?
(Rt)^
Anonymous
And my brain isn't quite at 100% right now, so failing to communicate is even more likely than usual... :-)
18:09
The closest I can get to is this: (╯°□°)╯ Doesn't seem like it, but that's totally a guy saying Duh!
Anonymous
That looks kind of like a table flipper.
Anonymous
(ノ ̄□ ̄)ノ ~┻━┻
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Oh! It looks more like someone tossed something away and the regretted it.
@snailboat Ah, looks like a sushi dish or something!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. It's based on this:
Anonymous
18:11
Oh, no!
Anonymous
Look up ちゃぶ台返し
Poor boy!
Poor food.
Anonymous
18:12
They even made a video game out of tea table flipping:
Anonymous
@snailboat Now you basically slap the food?
I wonder how it plays.
18:14
The Battle of Beetle-Browed Black Belts
Anonymous
It doesn't look very exciting.
Japan and its people-looking saw-teeth monsters. . .
Oh, the table is pop-up-able!
Anonymous
Hey, this game says MON TUE WEN THU FRI
Anonymous
18:17
Wednesday became Wensday!
Or wendesday.
That kinda rhymes with Hernandez.
Anonymous
o_O;
Anonymous
I didn't know kinda stretched that far
Oh it does, it has been doing some stretches lately.
18:21
Even cats do it!
The image has kinda been not found (0:
Image not found! Where were you? Oh I missed you so much my little buddy!
Anonymous
Oh! They stopped us from linking
@DamkerngT. I thought you meant stretching.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I think his flipping the table counts as stretching, too. :-)
18:25
Well, he looks like he wants to open the gates of hell in his mouth. I don't look like that when I'm stretching.
17 hours ago, by Damkerng T.
I think there are a few cause patterns of these questions.
Just realized that we have another common cause...
- Some questions look as though they were from a quest of making a new kind of dictionary of some sort... probably for NLP.
Notoriously Leaky Parents?
Is that a common abbr. for NLP?
Looks like I said it backward. :P
18:34
Naggy Lamp Plugs?
Well, if I'm looking for a synonym (I typically look for idioms/proverbs though) it's because I don't want to repeat the first word twice in my sentence.
How often does that happen?
How should I scale the answer?
0.00 to 1.00?
One just happened two days ago; I was too drowsy to find a synonym for obsolete. And it was in this meta.SE discussion Q:'
17
Q: C'mon, please give us a hint: how authoritative is that "obsolete comment" flag?

Monica CellioComment flags do not show who did the flagging, which is usually fine -- as a moderator reviewing such flags I can evaluate whether something is "not constructive" or "too chatty" or "offensive" without knowing the history. But "obsolete" flags require more work, enough that when I see them I us...

@DamkerngT. 0.07 to 0.15.
Depends on what I'm doing though.
That's often enough.
18:41
That's when I'm writing a letter for Cambridge.
Though I wouldn't mind using the same word again and again.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Oh, that sounds cool! What did they send you in return?
(A couple dictionaries would be nice. :-)
For instance, since I haven't been writing anything formal in English for about some time, the second to last time it happened was about two months ago.
@DamkerngT. Access Denied - This piece of info is confidential
Okay, okay. :-)
 
2 hours later…
20:45
@Catija answers this update already in his answer... "The price of moving house" is a bit odd because you are asking for a price of something that is not specific. If a moving company just had a list of prices and one of them was "moving house", then that would make sense, but moving companies typically will charge based on some combination of distance, amount of stuff to move, time taken, and people working. "What was the price of your moving house?" works just fine though (because you have a concrete number). What do you think is missing? — akedrou 12 mins ago
Worth noting. (along with the answer)
I read that worth nothing for the second time.
This time it wasn't a typo on your side.
:D
0
Q: What's the difference in since and from in "I've not seen her since/from August"

RohitEverywhere people have provided explanation for "since" vs "for" but what is the difference between since and from? Another example: It has been raining from/since morning. I know 'since' is right but why is 'from' wrong?

Another interesting question. Reminds me of they vs. those/these.
 
1 hour later…
22:09
@Dam king how do I even manage to be the third voter in month and quarter and fourth voter in year?! ELL does have really big voting problems. . .Oh, and ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ.
Cuz you like it.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I wish people had voted more often.
Oh, and about that GreenOnline guy, I wouldn't bet on his voting. . .I've seen a lot of random voters like that.
It's a good start, though.
@DamkerngT. Me too. . .I was shocked. . .I only visit the questions you tell me to (And most of the times, I don't) and throw a random vote but I still manage to be the third voter in quarter?!
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M nods -- That's why I think we're still not ready (for the graduation).
22:13
@DamkerngT. More likely, it's not a start; it's like a shooting star fading quick in the darkness, unless the guy frequents ELL and comes to chat, while I accidentally did and totally regret it.
LOL
What surprised me the most was that there are only five voters this week. (Even though it's only Monday, still...)
Yeah, that's a thing. And it means @snail hasn't waken up yet.
BTW, I spotted another pattern of the voting pattern on ELL, which is related to HNQs.
The sooner you answer, the likelier the more rewarding your answer will be.
Yes, that's kinda dominant in chem.SE.
But again, chem is a science Q/A. There's hardly more than one sensible answer to the question.
I think the weight of the votes caused by that is not well-proportioned.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I think it's probably similar on ELL. ELL has only 1.8 answers per question, on average.
22:24
Apparently graduation is almost entirely based on question volume.
If you check my favourites on mse, there's something about it.
@DamkerngT. Don't forget that's because some people post questions like what's the difference between meaning and semantics? . . .
Anonymous
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I woke up nine hours ago :-)
@jimsug I'm not sure how to get to your Meta.SE favorites. I barely use Meta.SE myself.
Anonymous
@jimsug Well, ELL has been above 10 questions/day since day 1. In fact, it started above the old threshold (15 q/day), and although it briefly dipped under, it's been above for years.
@snailboat Good morning! (nine hours late :P)
Anonymous
22:27
I wouldn't worry too much about the official criteria.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Morning! :-)
OK, let me rephrase: That means @snail doesn't feel like ELLing, but I like the first revision better.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. ELL's answers/question started out higher and have been slowly declining. I see no reason why it would ever rise to 2.5.
Where are my fingers? - says to himself, trying to calculate whether 9 hours after morning is afternoon or evening or even night.
Anonymous
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I'm here all the time! But! I have other stuff I need to do sometimes 'sides chat and check the site :-)
Anonymous
22:29
I've been cleaning the house since my dad's coming to visit tomorrow.
@snailboat Totally agree!
Anonymous
Plus, I just bought a 3DS (video game system) last week.
Anonymous
So I've been spending some time playing that. Though often at the same time as chatting ;-)
Games games games. . .Oh, sound echo is because it's somehow 3 a.m. here.
Anonymous
Visits/day started out in the low hundreds, I think. I don't remember the exact numbers―maybe in the dozens?
Anonymous
22:30
I remember watching it rise slowly, then faster and faster, and then I stopped paying attention. It's way higher now.
30k+ visitors/day
But a lot of them are passer-by's.
And not typical passer-by's. People who can vote but don't. . .
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M That's okay. I think that's also vital for the site.
No, see point 2.
Visitors are fine, even good enough for me to call them fine, but user-visitors are a problem.
Good point.
22:34
Leeching the stats away, decreasing our activity per user ratio thingy.
1
A: Word for describing 'water accumulated on roads'

User1There is really nothing that unnatural with your own words (which is often the case here; people tend to overthink things): Most of the roads on my route have accumulated rain water and it is raining heavily. I might reverse the terms, because and can suggest a cause-and-effect relationship...

Hey, I kinda like the practicality of the answer.
OP: What is a key word that could describe the road condition?
Answer: Don't worry. Just keep your conversation natural, and you'd be fine.
Those kinda answers make me worried even further.
OMG THEY THOUGHT MY CONVERSATION WAS NATURAL! SOMETHING'S DEFINITELY WRONG!
LOL!
@snailboat Ah, Father's Day was last month. Probably a late visit. :-) Anyway, have a good time cleaning house and hanging out with dad. :D
22:46
@snailboat Are you scared?
(Note: This is totally not a trick question)
5
A: Word for describing 'water accumulated on roads'

CopperKettleI would say something like: The roads are flooded by heavy rains. The roads are waterlogged. Most of the roads have been rendered impassable by heavy rains. Examples from the media: "Many roads remain impassable and are covered by water." (source) "Another day of downpours b...

Honestly, that seems the most natural.
> The roads are flooded by heavy rain.
nods -- waterlogged or impassable is probably a little too much.
@dam there are a few people who have requested access to this room, fyi
idk if you care to let them in.
22:55
That answer's @Copper's fault. How in the world is it the most natural?
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M shrugs
just does.
@jimsug I consider the requests on the case by case basis.
Ah, BRB!
@DamkerngT. kk
... wow
I probably would not have noticed, had you not said anything.
23:00
\M.A.{zzz}[for~some~hours] \fbox{Later guys!}
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Have a good zzz!
Anonymous
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Why do you ask that?
@snailboat Nothing. . .It just went through my fingers. . .
It was for the fun sake of the moment, really. No serious questions @snail.

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