Language Overflow

Anonymous

02:35

@DamkerngT. A funny side effect from ordering Japanese books on amazon.com instead of amazon.co.jp is this:

Anonymous

> Subject: Your Amazon.com order of "日本文&#x..." has shipped!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

08:02

@snailboat Heh, hehehhe!

What would be funnier is, posting a screenshot of that as a feedback.

Damkerng T.

08:19

@snailboat Hee

Damkerng T.

08:51

> In the grammar text we are perusing, the concept of modals has raised its head. The words "The nice thing about modern grammarians is that they have reduced the number of TENSES in English to just two, PRESENT and PAST. Notice even WILL (formerly considered to represent the future tense) is really a PRESENT TENSE MODAL expressing present time intent or will…..)"

> languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=897

That's nice!

> The terminology remains variable, but at least since Otto Jespersen a hundred years ago, many grammarians working on English have taken all this to mean that English has only two basic tenses, present and past. (Well, Jespersen called the past tense by the old-fashioned name "preterit" — but as I said, the terminology varies.)

So preterit was coined or at least first used by Otto Jespersen.

A Danish linguist.

:D

> Thus you can say "I regret not being able to leave" but not "I regret not canning leave"; and similarly "I regret not being about to leave", but not "I regret not willing leave". Likewise "I want to be about to leave" works, but "I want to will leave" doesn't.

Though everyone (learner) knows this, it may be interesting to think of verbs that we would use in the place of these modals after a verb such as want to or like to or have to.

- We have to be able/ready to allow people to leave this island soon.

- We want to possibly(?) allow people to leave this building in case Godzilla strikes.

- We want you to maybe consider such an option.

- They want us to firmly intend to have achieved our objectives by this nightfall.

- They want us to have to hold this line.

- They want us to be having to hold this line when Muto (Massive Unidentified Terrestrial Organism) is here.

Though all these are unlikely utterances, especially the later ones (it's easier to just be direct), they're all possible, imho.

> Why are these words called "modals"? In a tradition going back to Aristotle, modal logic deals with ways of qualifying the truth of a judgment. In its modern form, modal logic might deal with the logic of necessity and possibility, or the logic of obligation and permission, or the logic of belief, or the logic of time.

> And since the words like can, may, might, must, should, will, and would are verbal auxiliaries that mostly express modal concepts, it makes sense to call them "modal auxiliaries".

This following part is worth noting:

Past Time			Present Time			Future Time
He will have left already. 	He will be in Paris now. 	He will see her tomorrow.
He may have left already. 	He may be in Paris now. 	He may see her tomorrow.

> And if you want to follow an experienced guide deep into the grammatical woods, take a look at Anoop Sarkar, "The conflict between future tense and modality: The case of will in English", Penn Working Papers in Linguistics 5(2): 91-117, 1998.

> Anoop's conclusion? English will is a present-tense modal.

Also, the three reasons are worth noting: that "modern grammarians" haven't "reduced the number of tenses in English to just two", that the change's motivated by a logical argument based on facts, and that it seems wrong to claim that the present-day meaning of will is "present-time intent" (originally, it mean "to want" or "to wish" or "to choose").

> Geoff Pullum attributes to will (with examples) "a wide range of meanings, ranging over volition, inclination, habituation, tendency, inference, and prediction". -- See here.

Oh, the last paragraph is quite friendly. :-)

> And finally, a text for middle-schoolers shouldn't just appeal to the authority of "modern grammarians", whatever their motivation, especially when it suggests that they've changed their minds about something. It's not hard to give some arguments for the view that English has no future tense, as I've done above. The arguments might be right or wrong, and students should be free to engage them seriously and come to a conclusion.

> This is not because they're better qualified than the experts, but because it's the only way for them to understand the claims.

9 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

> Anoop's conclusion? English will is a present-tense modal.

This raises another question: What is English would?

Damkerng T.

11:46

0

A: I want to replace "take place" with occur and happen

There are online tools for this, e.g. For Better English. "execution took place" results in 0.077 hits / million. "execution occurred" (note the extra r) results in 0.016 hits / million. "execution happened" results in 0.003 hits / million. So 'occurred' is used less often, but ...

This site sucks. I type the most common phrases and it does not find them. — Justyna Nogala 2 hours ago

:D

BTW, I take it that this site means "that" site. :P

In any case, that site seems to be useful, too.

Somehow the availability of corpora all over the web, here and there and them some, reminds me of stock trading.

I remember I've read somewhere that a professional trader once said that when a taxi cab driver gives you a stock tip, it's time that you should get off the market.

I take it that he meant it's a time when everyone acts as if they know but they really don't.

I wonder how much these tools have an impact on language usage, particularly English.

I also remember that someone said "Collocation is overrated".

Can't find that on the web, so maybe it was in a book.

Still, one fact remains. Corpora are useful.

They're not only useful. They are extraordinarily useful, if used properly.

But if we always rely on the most frequently used pattern, isn't it true that we just follow the herd behavior, and we always try to stay at the center of the herd?

BTW, it's very safe to be at the center of the herd.

But everyone cannot be there.

And perhaps we the human race wouldn't make it this far if all of us always avoid being at the "edge".

Damkerng T.

12:21

0

Q: Is the use of "for" in this sentence correct?

Is the use of "for" in this sentence grammatical or not: Its effects can last for two years, and sometimes for even ten years. Should I keep it this way, or should I omit the "for"? Its effects can last for two years, and sometimes even ten years.

> OP1: Its effects can last for two years, and sometimes for even ten years.

> OP2: Its effects can last for two years, and sometimes even ten years.

> (Me) Why not: Its effects can last two years, sometimes even ten years.

Oh, this is a little thing that can make you smile.

> ell.stackexchange.com/questions/61760/…

> "English fit for travel, as if you have your teacher with you."
This sounds somehow wrong to me. Shouldn't the subjunctive use the past form of have in this case, as in 'As if you had your teacher with you'?

@ComicSansMS Probably because the person designing the advert didn't attend that school? ^_^ — Stephie 4 hours ago

Seems you are not the only one riding the subway: english.stackexchange.com/questions/259233/… — Stephie 4 hours ago

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT.! Good afternoon!

Damkerng T.

:D

Good afternoon/evening!

CopperKettle

I've been reading about New Horizons. It has just passed Pluto.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I saw you mention it a few days ago. :D

Yippie!

CopperKettle

Hooray for space-faring robots!

Damkerng T.

12:27

Job well done! My robotian. :D

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

I wonder if human beings will ever travel space again.

CopperKettle

There's that project called Mars One

Mars One

Mars One is a nonprofit organization based in the Netherlands that has put forward plans to land the first humans on Mars and establish a permanent human colony there by 2027. The private spaceflight project is led by Dutch entrepreneur Bas Lansdorp, who announced plans for the Mars One project in May 2012. The project's schedule, technical and financial feasibility, as well as ethics have been widely criticized by scientists, engineers and those in the aerospace industry. Mars One's original concept included launching a robotic lander and orbiter as early as 2016 to be followed by a human crew...

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Let's colonize Mars!

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Robots already have!

Damkerng T.

12:30

Hmm... can we colonize a place by sending robots there alone?

CopperKettle

I dunno..

Damkerng T.

Considering the number of world population (7.328 billion, according to worldometers.info/world-population), I guess we will have to colonize some other planets, sooner or later.

CopperKettle

"Linux is the common name for many operating systems. " - I fixed this to a but am unsure..

@DamkerngT. Maybe when we create an AI, it will colonize space.

Damkerng T.

I like a better. -- Thinking if 'the' is really wrong...

CopperKettle

Me too.. but then... "many operating systems" is indefinite.. probably THE is okay.

Damkerng T.

12:33

I think the works if we change for to of.

> Linux is the common name of a bunch of operating systems.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. yes, because a has migrated rightwards

Damkerng T.

nods

For me, a bunch of operating systems allows me to visualize a specific set of operating systems, but many operating systems is too vague.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. yes, and since it's vague, the would not be applicable. Thanks!

Damkerng T.

Welcome!

Though I think the in the original isn't wrong per se, but it could use an edit.

CopperKettle

A guy wrote "I live in Egypt. I want to learn Russian and improve English." A laudable desire! (0:

Damkerng T.

12:37

Nice! I like his attitude. :D

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. The last person who noticeably improved English was Shakespeare (0:

Mostafa Kamal will be the next one. I hope he will do away with (the?) articles. (0:

Damkerng T.

Hmm... well, I'm not sure if he was the last, but he sure did!

:D

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Yes, probably not the last! (0:

Damkerng T.

The number of articles of English is small enough that we can always use the, I think.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Okay!

Damkerng T.

12:43

1

Q: Capacity vs. Ability

Capable. "Men are capable of being flattered." Say, susceptible to flattery. "Capable of being refuted." Vulnerable to refutation. Unlike capacity, capability is not passive, but active. We are capable of doing, not of having something done to us. Capacity for Ability. "A great capac...

difference synonyms

> I suppose this excerpt is not very accurate. The distinction between capability and ability isn't as clear-cut as is said above.

Oh, he doubts Ambrose Bierce. :D

CopperKettle

(0:

Ambrose Bierce

Ambrose Gwinnett Bierce (June 24, 1842 – circa 1914) was an American editorialist, journalist, short story writer, fabulist, and satirist. He wrote the short story "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" and compiled a satirical lexicon, The Devil's Dictionary. His vehemence as a critic, his motto "Nothing matters", and the sardonic view of human nature that informed his work, all earned him the nickname "Bitter Bierce". Despite his reputation as a searing critic, Bierce was known to encourage younger writers, including poet George Sterling and fiction writer W. C. Morrow. Bierce employed a distinctive...

Oh, I read that story about (the?) Owl Creek Bridge.

Damkerng T.

This is the first time I've heard of it!

The Devil's Dictionary! :D

CopperKettle

A nice story if you don't read its short synopsis first, in order not to spoil youself the pleasure.

@DamkerngT. (0:

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle I'll keep that in mind. :D

CopperKettle

(0:

These days, we say that a powerplant has a capacity of 2 GW.

Damkerng T.

12:49

nods -- Makes sense.

CopperKettle

"Franklin and SGP Energy have said the project would expand the local power plant's capacity to 120 megawatts"

Damkerng T.

It would sound weird with ability!

I think even lifts/elevators also use capacity, not ability, even though they move.

CopperKettle

Franklin and SGP Energy have said the project would make the plant able to produce power at a rate of 120 MW (per year? per day? per hour?)

Damkerng T.

able is okay, I think.

Bierce also asserted something similar: Unlike capacity, capability is not passive, but active.

CopperKettle

From a Ukrainian news website: "Thailand introduced death penalty for corruption". First ever mention of Thailand on that site. (0:

Damkerng T.

12:55

Only for the government officials, iiuc.

CopperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

I'm not really comfortable with it, though I think I can't do anything.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. I'm also against the death penalty.

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

Unpredictable Shower - I thought it was a story about the bathroom fixture.

Damkerng T.

13:01

Not sure; it says "nasty rain"

CopperKettle

yep, its about rain in St Pete

Nothing was suspicious, I went for a morning walk with my little daughter and neice.

(a calque from Russian here)

"Nothing seemed out of the ordinary" - or maybe there's a better expression in English..

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

"Everything seemed fine", probably. Or is it "Everything seemed to be fine"

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I wonder if the writer meant "As usual, (I went for ...)".

CopperKettle

By "nothing seemed suspicious" she certainly meant "There was nothing (in the weather signs) to be suspicious about"..

Damkerng T.

13:08

Oh, I see. I didn't have the context.

CopperKettle

"When I went for a morning walk with my little daughter and niece, everything seemed fine."

Damkerng T.

I thought it could be a thriller. :P

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

Oh, it's still from the same piece.

CopperKettle

"I thought it's no harm in it while we are covered by the willow's foliage." - I wonder shouldn't it be "I thought there was no harm in it while we were covered.."

Damkerng T.

13:11

Yes, I agree with the minimal edit.

CopperKettle

I guess it's called "reported speech" (googles)

Damkerng T.

Or indirect speech.

CopperKettle

nods

edufind.com/english-grammar/…

"He explained that he was reading a book"

1

Q: While some types of coral reefs are living/alive others are dead

In this quiz, I came across this sentence. While some types of coral reefs off the Hawaiian coastline are living others are dead. But if it were me, I would use the word alive instead of living. While some types of coral reefs off the Hawaiian coastline are alive others are dead. I wo...

adjectives

Damkerng T.

It sounds weird to me as well.

Maybe it's a different dialect.

Living as an adjective after the copula be.

CopperKettle

come a cropper

Verb: come a cropper (third-person singular simple present comes a cropper, present participle coming a cropper, simple past and past participle came a cropper)

(archaic) To fall headlong from a horse.
1922, Katherine Mansfield, At The Bay, [1]:

a new expression to me..

"A reminder, as mentioned earlier , that there is a very small chance New Horizons will come a cropper"

@DamkerngT. To me it looked okayish.. don't we say "bring him to me living or dead"?

Damkerng T.

13:27

@CopperKettle I wouldn't say it; I'd say "Bring him to me, dead or alive."

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Oh, maybe I've invented "living or dead". Thanks@!

Damkerng T.

I haven't checked, I think alive or dead should be possible too.

Not sure about living or dead.

CopperKettle

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Damkerng T.

> Other names, characters, places, and incidents are the product of the author's imagination, and any resemblance to actual events or locales or persons, living or dead, is entirely coincidental.

Living as an adjective modifying a noun is fine with me.

It looks awkward when it's used after the copula be, but probably it's just me.

> Table 30, based upon table 29, gives the percentage distribution of legitimate children under care, by sex, color, and age, and by whether their parents were living or dead.

> Children Under Institutional Care and in Foster Homes, United States. Bureau of the Census, ‎Mrs. Mary W. Dillenback, ‎Alba M. Edwards - 1935

So it's in use in the US.

CopperKettle

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Damkerng T.

13:32

Interesting!

CopperKettle

"come a cropper": "For the actual derivation we need to consider the nether quarters of a horse - the croup or crupper. In the 18th century, anyone who took a headlong fall from a horse was said to have fallen 'neck and crop'"

Man_From_India

Hi @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

Hi! Good evening!

Man_From_India

Good evening

I came for a short visit to the main site, and was surprised by answers of this question

1

Q: For studying languages / to study languages

Don't know which sentence to use, to study a language from someone. I want to find someone for studying languages. I want to find someone to study languages. I want to find someone to learn languages/for learning languages.

grammar prepositions

I am on my mobile so can't search if "find someone for learning language" is okay.

From PEU, it seems it's incorrect.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India I think it could be correct (sort of) but in another meaning.

Like, For my research, I want to find someone (as a control subject) for learning language. The test group will learn music and sports.

Man_From_India

13:55

Yes that sounds fine. But the answers there say completely different :O

Damkerng T.

Oh, I haven't read it!

Anyway, I tried this one:

These should work: I need the/more (magic) power for flying. I need the/more (magic) power to fly. I need the/more (magic) power of flight. If Fly/Flying/Flight Power is a proper name in your game, then these should work too: I need Fly/Flying/Flight Power or if it's a spell: I need the spell of Fly/Flying/Flight Power. — Damkerng T. 45 secs ago

I'd say the context is unclear.

@Man_From_India I see. They seem to read the marginal to learn/study language as my reading of for learning/studying language, and vice versa!

Anyway, I agree with his suggestion ("it would be better to say").

are you saying that:"I am looking for someone to teach me languages " is also awkward. — sac 4 hours ago

That's not an examples in the question, I think.

Because, if I always use the words I know, there is no development in my language skills. — SayusiAndo 11 mins ago

Uh-oh! I guess that's a common problem for many!

Me? Let the words come to me. No need to try to force myself to use them.

> I have checked the available links (google), but the articles deal with the origin of the expression and the meaning. I can't find how it can be used in my case.

He could use a better word choice for available and articles.

> I would like to ask some help!

And that's not a kosher use of ask.

Then again, I take it that raison d’être is an expression in his first language.

Avoir, Être, Faire!

I agree with @StoneyB here - especially as raison d'être is probably not the best choice here. Hint: We all have a passive vocabulary that's way bigger than our active. Work on that by reading etc and you'll notice "new" or "bigger" words gradually slipping into your active use because you understand the full meaning of these expressions (instead of 'A' translates into 'B') and can use them instinctly and comfortably - instead of trying hard "to make it work somehow" or "to sound sophisticated". — Stephie 7 mins ago

Same idea, in a longer prose. :D

Damkerng T.

16:13

Word of the Night: appointment view, appointment viewing, appointment show

Now, what are their antonyms?

Damkerng T.

16:55

For tomorrow: English is a very easy language to learn. Unfortunately, so as Un-English.

To add a little more to the discussion on tense. Here is a screenshot of part of the page esl.fis.edu/grammar/easy/tenses.htm showing nice possibilities of the relationship between tense and time:

Anonymous

17:38

@DamkerngT. Antonym isn't a well defined concept.

Anonymous

There are cases where most people would probably agree, like good and bad, but those are the exception rather than the rule

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Because they're words of the night, so their antonyms are supposed to be disappointment viewing. :P

Anonymous

@CopperKettle As usual, it depends on context.

Damkerng T.

(Sorry about using both 'because' and 'so'; I'm typing from another computer.!)

Anonymous

If you forced me to pick without context, which I can't do reliably, I'd go with a.

Anonymous

17:55

@DamkerngT. If you're starting from the conclusion that will is a modal, then the next question is how you want to treat the alternation between will and would in terms of theory. Is the relationship sufficient to call them two forms of the same thing? Is the alternation similar enough to the regular present-past alternation to consider them a present-past pair?

Damkerng T.

All of which are tough questions!

CopperKettle

@snailboat Thanks!

@snailboat and good morning!

user62015

@DamkerngT. @snailboat @CopperKettle Hi!

How's going?

Anonymous

18:10

Good morning!

Anonymous

"How's it going?"

HarryCBurn

Hullo!

:)

@snailboat "Chill dawg!"

Anonymous

Word of the day: humectant!

Anonymous

@HarryCBurn In real life I tend to say sup if it's socially appropriate.

HarryCBurn

@snailboat ;)

What you up to?

Anonymous

18:15

Making hair goo.

HarryCBurn

Hair goo?

Anonymous

Yeah! Stuff you put in your hair.

Anonymous

It's super gross, but then your hair smells nice and gets shiny.

Anonymous

I'm trying to decide what to put in this time. I'm going to use chamomile tea :-)

Anonymous

Not terribly English-related, I s'pose.

Anonymous

18:17

But that is what I (am) up to.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The use of preterit(e) to refer to a past form is many centuries old.

Anonymous

Jespersen used the term, but he didn't invent it.

Anonymous

It was old-fashioned at the time he chose to use it, and it's old-fashioned today :-)

Anonymous

It still sees some use, though.

Anonymous

It's the term used in CGEL, which is greatly influenced by Jespersen.

Damkerng T.

18:22

Ahh

Hello, @HarryCBurn!

HarryCBurn

@DamkerngT. And what's up with you? c:

Damkerng T.

Nothing new. Same old, same old. ;D

Oh, I'm eating my chicken wings. :P

HarryCBurn

Nom ;p

I just got off school! c:

Anonymous

Woo hoo!

Damkerng T.

nom, nom

Anonymous

18:25

It's still morning o'er here in the States.

Anonymous

Hey, I see the new HarryCBurn icon now! :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I found part of chapters 8-10 on Google Books: books.google.com/…

Anonymous

Though as usual, it's the world's most annoying library―half the pages have been torn out of every book!

Damkerng T.

Nice! Thank you very much!

Oh, the mentioning of the human fetus is interesting.

HarryCBurn

@snailboat Woo!

Damkerng T.

18:33

What if a pregnant native speaker of English spent the whole time in Japan until the pregnancy came to full-term and then moved back to her country (say, UK or US)?

Anonymous

They're much more strongly influenced by the mother's own speech during that time than speech that occurs in the surrounding environment

Damkerng T.

Could that baby learn Japanese faster than their peers later in life, like 16 years later? :-)

Ahh

Anonymous

Oh, another point for the world's most annoying library: they blank out images and charts!

Anonymous

But, y'know, only sometimes.

Anonymous

Why? I dunno.

Damkerng T.

18:38

I wonder about their criteria.

Anonymous

Me too.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

19:05

Me three.

How's everyone today? Lemme read the script.

Damkerng T.

I'm okay!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Oh no!

Damkerng T.

And I learned today that hiccup is pronounced "hic-CUP".

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

O.o

Damkerng T.

Though a senator pronounced it "heekup".

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

19:07

You sure?

Damkerng T.

Yup. Because I just saw that clip an hour ago.

Maybe two.

Hmm... clip is not the right word. Should be "show".

Then, there was an argument over how we should pronounce"Daylight Saving Time".

One said it should be savING.

Another guy said it should be SAVing.

I don't know the answer of this one.

oerkelens

savING sounds ridiculOUS

DAYlight SAVing TIme

much nicer ryhtm

Damkerng T.

19:23

I'll try to listen more carefully when it's rerun. (The next rerun will start in one hour and five minutes.)

I remember that the host (David Letterman) spoke this word so many times at the beginning of the show, before the (hilarious) argument.

Anonymous

Hmm? Who thought it should be savING time? That sounds rather unnatural!

Anonymous

Of course, even though I know the official name is Daylight Saving Time, everyone around me says Daylight Savings Time

Damkerng T.

It was right after they showed the audience that "heekup" clip. :-)

Oh!

Anonymous

It actually sounds pretty strange without the 's' to me, though I tend to type it the official way anyway.

Anonymous

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