Language Overflow

Man_From_India

06:53

Is there any way to determine the order of adjectives?

0

Q: Thanks for your nice, long letter. Thanks for your nice and long letter

Thanks for your nice ,long letter. Thanks for your nice and long letter. Which one is correct? What is the difference between them? Can you please describe them with perfect explanation?

Generally, I think, it's "long nice letter".

Ahh there is one here -

learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/english-grammar/adjectives/order-adjectives

But that seems to be really tough :-( at least to determine the order of adjectives for this particular question.

Oh if we go by Royal Order of Adjectives, I think it's common to say "nice long letters".

user62015

09:11

Hi!

@DamkerngT. Hi!

Damkerng T.

Hi!

user62015

How is going?

Damkerng T.

Good. Thanks! How is it going here? I just came in.

user62015

Sounds good. It is moving great.

I also just got inside.

Damkerng T.

:D -- nods

user62015

09:25

You gave me a chat link where people can give me feedback after reading the piece of my writing.

I lost it.

Damkerng T.

It's Lang8. (lang-8.com)

user62015

I don't think, it has much users any more. I have seen other requests are laying without answers.

On this website you gave me the link and said that people would love to check and give feedback.

Damkerng T.

@user62015 It surprised me when you told me that the last time.

I still haven't checked that site, though.

user62015

Okay.

Damkerng T.

(Sorry for being away. Got a glitch with my internet connection.)

user62015

09:36

Oh.

I know I ask you for silly things.

Damkerng T.

Yes?

user62015

But I don't know why I don't feel confidence when it comes to my written English. My one friend asked me to write some content for his website as he said your English is good, but I don't have the confidence.

Damkerng T.

I think you would be fine with writing web contents.

user62015

I need someone to workout with me on this for a few days. I don't find any one who can help me online. But I feel confidence in you. Could you just check 3-4 content which I write and give me feedback. I know I am almost done but I need someone to tell me this.

Because his website will be online and it will have users from all over the world.

Damkerng T.

Oh, no. Please don't get me into that. Not that I don't want to help, but I'm not sure if I will have time for it.

Just be confident.

And don't worry too much if your English is not perfect perfect. English on a lot of websites is not perfect.

Getting your messages across would be the most important thing, I think.

user62015

09:46

Could I make a request? I know I am completely out of my mind but I am going through very tough time. I just don't feel the confidence. And problem is that his website provides some information about communication skills. You know if I make any mistake people will say if they cannot speak good how can they teach us?

Damkerng T.

Hmm... in that case, you may want to consider professional proofreading services.

user62015

I just wrote one story last night and just want to show you so you can give me some feedback honestly once I get the confidence I will not bother you again. I know I can do it but I need someone to tell 'you can do it'.

Damkerng T.

You can try pasting your story in another room, ELL's Cabin. There are more eyes and more skillful people there.

user62015

It's not something I don't find other people to help me out but I don't think they can help me out as they are also a learner and sometimes they make mistakes which shouldn't be made.

Send me the link please.

Damkerng T.

ELL's Cabin

This is the former main chat room for English Language Learner...

user62015

09:50

Thanks. Checking.

Would you mind to read a story which I have written? It will take just a few moment. I will not bother you easily. I just want to jump the line to feel the success.

It is just small one.

Under 250 words.

Damkerng T.

Better do it there.

user62015

Sure.

Thanks.

Damkerng T.

No problem.

user62015

You are very helpful.

I appreciate your help. I must leave now.

See you soon and thank you so much for your help.

You are very helpful.

Damkerng T.

Welcome. See you soon!

user62015

09:56

I appreciate your help. I must leave now.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India I got that Ngram chart!

M.A.Ramezani

10:43

Hey @Dam! What's shaking?

Damkerng T.

I wrote a shaky comment:

Let A = That's where the problem lies, B = I'm not very clear about the reason. A natural sentence would be [ A(,) but B. ] (The comma is optional.) Some other possible alternatives with although are [ A, (al)though B. ], and [ (Al)though B, A.] (you need a comma after B, not after although). You can arrange your thought in a reverse order: [ B(,) but A. ], [ B(,) although A. ], [ Although A, B. ]. Though it's generally not recommended, you can start a sentence with but, but it will link the whole sentence to the previous one: [ But B, although A. ]. — Damkerng T. 13 secs ago

M.A.Ramezani

Oh boy. I don't even wanna read it. . . Ever since I learned TeX brackets scare me.

Damkerng T.

:D

I'm not sure I want to read it either!

I also put Though and but in the same sentence purposely. Not sure if anyone will notice that.

M.A.Ramezani

@snail will.

I wonder how much nagging it's gonna take to make her change her username.

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani With nagging? That reminds me of The Wind and the Sun.

M.A.Ramezani

10:50

in ELL's Cabin, 13 hours ago, by M.A.Ramezani

OK, cracks knuckles I gotta nag @snail into changing her username after my accomplishment to nag Martin into nomination.

Damkerng T.

So you're gonna try the Wind's way?

M.A.Ramezani

I'm gonna try my way. . .

Damkerng T.

nods

M.A.Ramezani

in The Periodic Table, Jun 9 at 11:30, by M.A.Ramezani

Nominate, then sleep.

Damkerng T.

Gonna take a break. BBL

@M.A.Ramezani :D

M.A.Ramezani

10:52

in The Periodic Table, Jun 9 at 20:07, by M.A.Ramezani

@MARTIN NOMINATE!

in The Periodic Table, Jun 10 at 8:08, by M.A.Ramezani

@Martin NOMINATE!

in The Periodic Table, Jun 9 at 11:31, by M.A.Ramezani

NOMINATE already!

in The Periodic Table, Jun 10 at 8:06, by M.A.Ramezani

@Martin nominate already!

So you can get some ideas. . .

Damkerng T.

11:33

@M.A.Ramezani Did he?

0

Q: "over" and "across"

1 She is walking over the bridge. 2 She is walking across the bridge. Does sentence 1 and sentence 2 mean the same?

word

The simpler the sentence is, the more choices we have?

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. Yes, and he's a mod now.

Damkerng T.

It worked!

Man_From_India

12:23

@DamkerngT. Thanks, I got a nice explanation. I am not sure when I can write an answer to it :-( But I really like to....Without going into grammatical details it's possible to answer. For example: In order to be nice, the letter might be long. But it's very unlikely that in order to be long, the letter must be nice.

And so nice long letter is preferred over long nice letter.

There are grammatical explanation of it as well.

But I don't think if one writes long nice letter, it will be incorrect. What do you think?

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India I think it shows how we (humans) use our languages.

Mostly we go by familiarity and analogy.

Man_From_India

nods

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. We (humans)?

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India I don't think it's incorrect per se, but it's difficult to find a reason or a context that makes one uses "a long nice letter" instead of "a nice long letter".

@M.A.Ramezani Yes. As opposed to machines.

M.A.Ramezani

Poor robot. Thinks he's a humanoid.

Damkerng T.

12:31

:-)

Man_From_India

If you have A comprehensive Grammar of English Language, these pages are relevant - Page No. 1337-1343 and 437

Man_From_India

13:05

Done! :-)

0

A: Thanks for your nice, long letter. Thanks for your nice and long letter

The preferred way of saying - a nice long letter and a nice and long letter Grammatical Explanation - An adjective occurs in a noun phrase, in between the determinative (pre determiner + center determiner + post determiner) and the head noun. At times there might be a need to acc...

Damkerng T.

13:28

@Man_From_India I wonder if F.E. will have some comments for your answer.

But I get your idea in your "non-grammatical approach".

Though I may phrase it a little differently.

Maybe like: the favored order of cumulative and coordinate adjectives in English suggests that it's easier for English speakers to conceptualize a long letter that is nice than a nice letter that is long.

Anonymous

14:03

A long nice letter is a nice letter that is long. But a nice long letter is "nice and long" (considerably or sufficiently long?), and not necessarily nice

Anonymous

Kind of like how a big ol' truck isn't necessarily old

M.A.Ramezani

Yes.

Anonymous

They're special uses of words like nice and old with special meanings

M.A.Ramezani

With extra sauce.

Anonymous

If you reverse the order you get the literal meanings: an old big truck is a big truck that is old

Man_From_India

14:24

@snailboat nice long letter = a long letter that is nice. Is this also possible? But they essentially mean "nice letter" and "long letter". Any difference in meaning?

Damkerng T.

14:35

Even though I wrote conceptualize, what I really thought of was mental representation. It's kinda like though we can say The project is now complete, it's not quite the same thing as a complete project. I should've been more careful with paraphrasing, but it's probably very near the limit of my capacity in short amount of time already.

Note to self: Must check 'in short amount of time' vs. 'in a short amount of time' later.

In any case, about nice:

CopperKettle

Good evening, @DamkerngT.!

Damkerng T.

nice: 3 used with another adjective to emphasize that you like a particular quality that someone or something has; nice and warm/comfortable/clean etc.: It’s nice and quiet in here. I like my coffee nice and strong.

Good evening, @CopperKettle!

Out the door vs. Out of the house

Looks like a nice article!

Anonymous

14:51

If you want to say "a letter which is both long and nice", I wouldn't say "a nice long letter".

Damkerng T.

nods -- "A nice and long letter" or maybe "a long and nice letter", perhaps?

BTW, good morning!

Man_From_India

Yes true...but I have still trouble understanding a long nice letter. How is it different?

Anonymous

Nice and long letter is likely to be interpreted the same way as nice long letter

Anonymous

A long nice letter is nice.

Anonymous

A nice long letter isn't necessarily.

Anonymous

14:56

But stacking adjectives like a long nice letter isn't especially natural, so I'd say "I sent her a letter that was pretty long, and I tried my best to be as nice as I could" or something...

Damkerng T.

> She took a sip of her coffee. Nice and strong.

What is her coffee like?

(without the word nice or strong)

Dark, heavy in taste, lots of caffeine?

Intermittent topic...

> In standard formal approaches to modality, an utterance expressing modality can always roughly be paraphrased to fit the following template:

> (1) According to [a set of rules, wishes, beliefs,...] it is [necessary, possible] that [the main proposition] is the case.

CopperKettle

15:13

@DamkerngT. Yes, a nice article!

Damkerng T.

> The set of propositions which forms the basis of evaluation is called the modal base. The result of the evaluation is called the modal force.

CopperKettle

So I went and penned an answer. (0:

Damkerng T.

> Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_modality

@CopperKettle Nice!

Ahh... Just found the answer...

CopperKettle

They write at Language Log that we use "come out + noun" like in "come out the door" in cases where there is a mention of a limited aperture (the door)

But what about "He will come out the other side"?

Where's the limited aperture here?

Good evening, @snailboat!

Damkerng T.

Also possible is come out of the door.

CopperKettle

15:18

@DamkerngT. really? interesting! I'll need to scrap my answer. (0:

Damkerng T.

Eh?

I just wanted to add more possibilities. (Haven't read your answer through.)

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Ah! I wrote as if you don't need of in the case with "come out the door".

Damkerng T.

Agree. It's not needed.

CopperKettle

Because in Language Log lingo out is a "transitive preposition", not part of "come out".

Damkerng T.

It depends on the intended meaning, I think.

In come out (of) the door, out would be a plain preposition, imho.

CopperKettle

15:23

@DamkerngT. Yes! come + out + of + the door

Need to read up on this. (0:

"come out of the door" - 30 hits at Google Books, without "of", 43.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think a door is at the border of an enclosed space, so it's possible either way.

I wonder about the numbers of hits of come out the room vs. come out of the room.

6 vs. 79! That says something.

CopperKettle

"come out of the room" - 87, without of, only 4

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

From Language Log: "But you can't (standardly) walk out the house, or out the plaza, or out the village, or whatever — all of those need "of". Nor can you (standardly) peer out the box, or stare out the car, or shoot out the bushes — though you can perfectly well shoot at someone out of the bushes, etc."

because "the room" is not an aperture through which you emerge

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

15:31

In Google News, "come out the door" evokes some 1500 hits while "come out of the door" only 6 dozens.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

What are the sources of Google News?

CopperKettle

News media

Damkerng T.

All dialects?

CopperKettle

I guess so

Damkerng T.

(wondering about came in the news)

I found only 173 hits of come out the door on news via Google.

66 of come out of the door.

99 of came out of the door.

CopperKettle

15:34

Yes, indeed, 173 - I forgot to double-check

Damkerng T.

256 of came out the door.

Still, it's obvious that come/came out the door is preferred.

CopperKettle

Still, "come out the other side" looks strange to me. "on the other side" looks more natural.

BBL (0:

Damkerng T.

nods

Thinking that maybe 'come out to the other side' is possible too...

sad -- no hits for 'come out to the other side' on Google Books

Anonymous

15:55

Come out the other side sounds fine to me

Anonymous

Come out to the other side? I'm not sure what that would mean... Came out of something, and outside of that thing was the other side of some other thing?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Apparently, it doesn't work. :-)

It's weird that Lizzie Borden Took an Ax, a period movie of an event took place in 1892, used electronic instruments in its soundtracks.

Anonymous

16:11

When was the movie made?

Anonymous

Anachronistic-sounding music is always amusing to me, although I think it's a legitimate artistic choice

Damkerng T.

@snailboat IMDb says 2014!

Damkerng T.

20:09

Word of the Day: neckline

I admit that I thought neckline was a line around the neck.

(A bit like crow's feet but on the neck.)

Anonymous

A-ha!

Anonymous

Say, what was that word you used the other day?

Anonymous

I was on my phone and couldn't easily look it up.

Anonymous

I believe it was one of your words o' the day.

Damkerng T.

Expergefactor.

Anonymous

20:14

Thanks!

Damkerng T.

Welcome!

Anonymous

Hah!

Anonymous

"someone or something that awakens: an awakener; e.g., an alarm clock"

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

Wow, it seems to be quite the rare word!

Damkerng T.

20:15

Indeed!

Anonymous

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Anonymous

corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=40427597

Damkerng T.

I guessed as much!

Anonymous

That means there are fewer than 40 results in the entire Google Books corpus. (It shows zero even if you adjust to the maximum date range.)

Damkerng T.

Oh, so it's possible that it's not absolutely zero.

Anonymous

20:18

I count 17 here: google.com/…

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Right, if you get zero results, that just means there were fewer than 40.

Anonymous

That's why it's possible to find results for a rare word, but then find 0 in both the BrE and AmE subcorpora.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I always thought it was really zero.

Anonymous

It might have been 60 overall, but 30 in each, so you get nothing!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Google has published some papers describing the corpora and the related tools

Damkerng T.

20:19

I should've read more about it. :D

Anonymous

I believe I've linked to a couple of them in the past

Damkerng T.

nods -- I remember that you linked to one about the year 2008.

And quite likely, more than one.

Anonymous

Start here: scholar.google.com/…

Anonymous

You can find plenty of related articles using Google Scholar, too

Damkerng T.

nods -- I've just learned today that we can search for PoS on Google Ngram too!

The tag _ROOT_ is the most intriguing to me.

(According to books.google.com/ngrams/info)

Anonymous

20:25

The "supplemental online materials" for the paper I linked to: sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2010/12/16/science.1199644.DC1/…

Anonymous

This is one of the several places they talk about the 1800 and 2000 dates

Anonymous

Another is here: culturomics.org/Resources/faq

Anonymous

> 4. What's happening before 1800?
>
> By and large the OCR, the dating accuracy, and the volume of data are all much bigger issues before 1800 than after. That's why our paper doesn't use any data before 1800.
>
> Please see the Supplemental Online Materials of our paper for more details.
>
>
> 5. What's happening after 2000?
>
> Before 2000, most of the books in Google Books come from library holdings. But when the Google Books project started back in 2004, Google started receiving lots of books from publishers. This dramatically affects the composition of the corpus in recent years and …

Damkerng T.

Do you know what part of speech tagger they used?

An in-house one, probably?

Anonymous

Probably, Google has a major case of NIH

Damkerng T.

20:27

Got it.

Anonymous

But I don't know. Their publications indicate that the corpus is untagged.

Anonymous

So they must have added that after they published.

Damkerng T.

Their info page mentions "Part-of-speech Tags". -- nods

Anonymous

They've made some useful changes over the years, though they still haven't fixed the window units being useless

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

20:29

A-ha

Anonymous

> We also have a paper on our part-of-speech tagging:
>
> Yuri Lin, Jean-Baptiste Michel, Erez Lieberman Aiden, Jon Orwant, William Brockman, Slav Petrov. Syntactic Annotations for the Google Books Ngram Corpus. Proceedings of the 50th Annual Meeting of the Association for Computational Linguistics Volume 2: Demo Papers (ACL '12) (2012)

Damkerng T.

Oh! -- searching...

Anonymous

anthology.aclweb.org/P/P12/P12-3029.pdf

Damkerng T.

Oh, Conditional Random Field (CRF).

Anonymous

97.22% is about on par with CLAWS

Damkerng T.

20:31

nods

Anonymous

But their tagset is much smaller.

Anonymous

242

Q: Upcoming login changes (Stage 1 now LIVE)

As y'all know, our current flavor of "global authentication" leaves a few things to be desired. It's flaky, requires a page refresh, etc. etc. Wouldn't it be nice if you could just sign in once and be automatically logged in across the network? We are ready to roll out Stage 1 of Project "Make...

discussion featured login auto-login

Damkerng T.

nods -- An interesting thing is that in Larry will decide, ROOT is will, not decide.

Anonymous

That's odd.

Damkerng T.

Wow! -- Oh, maybe that was the cause of the glitch I got this evening.

Anonymous

20:34

Look at the top of page 4.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think it's fine in John has short black hair.

Anonymous

Yeah, has makes sense.

Damkerng T.

Anyway, they seem not to tag _AUX_, just _VERB_.

Anonymous

That's okay. In English, most people agree that the auxiliaries are all verbs.

Anonymous

That's not true for other languages, of course.

Damkerng T.

20:37

Eh?

Anonymous

But every language has its own parts of speech.

Anonymous

Of course, it would be helpful to break verbs down further :-)

Damkerng T.

nods :D

Anonymous

But it seems like their tagging is deliberately very coarse-grained.

Damkerng T.

Oh, they have Chinese n-gram, but not Japanese.

Anonymous

20:38

I have this: catalog.ldc.upenn.edu/LDC2009T08

Anonymous

So I can do Japanese searches if you need to look anything up.

Damkerng T.

Cool! ($150!)

Anonymous

By the way, I encourage you to sign up for a free LDC account. There are corpora there you can access for free.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I can have a free account over there? That's very nice. Thanks!

Anonymous

Of course, if you ever want Japanese corpora, I can point you to a bunch of free ones, but they're all smaller than the Google one.

Anonymous

20:42

So I've been using the Google one a lot lately.

Damkerng T.

I've just made a great discovery a couple days ago!

Nothing big, but it's like a treasure for me...

Anonymous

Google Japanese Web N-gram search results: 人生を歩んできた 22110,　人生を歩んで来た 1689,　人生を歩んでいった 160,　人生を歩んで行った 0 — snailboat ♦ yesterday

Damkerng T.

how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/…

Anonymous

If I do these searches on the publicly available Balanced Corpus of Contemporary Written Japanese (BCCWJ), I end up with 10, 1, 1, and 0!

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

20:44

Neat! :-)

Damkerng T.

Wow, the diagrams in that answer are super cute!

Anonymous

Oh, that's my favorite new user! :-)

Damkerng T.

I can see why. :D

BTW, the answer mentions "until now" too!

I don't know whether the answer is correct, but I upvoted it. :D

Anonymous

Haha!

Anonymous

I upvoted it too.

Anonymous

20:54

With the new login changes, I guess that if I'm logged into Japanese.SE, I'll always be logged into ELL!

Anonymous

Let's try it out...

Anonymous

Um.

Anonymous

That doesn't work very well!

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

I couldn't log back into Japanese.SE. I did eventually get logged back in by logging into Stack Exchange

Damkerng T.

20:57

It's very rare for me to log into any stack.

Anonymous

But logging into Japanese.SE just brought me back to my logged out Japanese.SE page.

Anonymous

Well, hopefully they'll make login work at some point.

Damkerng T.

(Unless my PC crashed for a long period of time...)

Anonymous

Apparently prunes are called dried plums now.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I used logging out as a way to limit my activity temporarily so I can get other things done.

Damkerng T.

21:04

@snailboat I sometimes minimize this window entirely. :D

It has 1832 tabs now!

Anonymous

I'll install the Copper Kettle Protocol.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

I use my Chicken Clock. :D

Anonymous

What's that?

Damkerng T.

Maybe timer is a better word.

in English Language Learners, Oct 16 '14 at 19:21, by Damkerng T.

I've got the first one. :D

I remember that its ticking was a bit disturbing last year. It doesn't seem so now. (And my hearing is still perfectly functioning, below 13 kHz, that is. :-)

Anonymous

Cute! :-)

Damkerng T.

21:07

The main reason I bought it. :D

M.A.Ramezani

22:53

@DamkerngT. Hehe robots do dream of electronic sheep. . . I mean hens.

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani Can't resist the cutesiness!

M.A.Ramezani

I gotta redefine my libs of cutesiness.

Damkerng T.

I don't know who made those timers, but whoever made it was very successful at convincing me to buy it. :-)

M.A.Ramezani

I swear I didn't tell 'em you like hens!

Runs

Damkerng T.

Wait, I think it's not a hen.

M.A.Ramezani

23:05

It's a timer.

Damkerng T.

A chicken timer is supposed to be male, I think.

M.A.Ramezani

But roosters aren't that fat.

Damkerng T.

It's a mini-rooster.

So, looking a little fat is okay. It increases the degree of cuteness. :D

M.A.Ramezani

Cutipitidy.

Damkerng T.

Hehe! -- Kawaii factor!

Anonymous

23:11

You all might like Cute Overload

Anonymous

cuteoverload.com/?s=snails

Damkerng T.

:D

Oh, the snail looks too cute to be true!

But maybe they're real.

I've never seen such colorful colors on snail shells before.

Anonymous

They're real! :-)

Damkerng T.

It's kinda surreal, don't you think?!

M.A.Ramezani

@snailboat I think @Dam is gonna implode or explode or something like that right now.

Damkerng T.

23:15

Umm... this guy is tagged snail too!

Anonymous

Aww, hedgie! :-)

Anonymous

Not very snaily, but still cute.

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

@M.A.Ramezani Quite possibly! (browsing through the cat section...)

ELL's Cabin

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