Language Overflow

Anonymous

12:05 AM

@S.R.I Flutist is also a word. Actually, it's the older of the two.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It'll definitely help them with understanding other classic English novels :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Precisely!

Good evening!

Anonymous

Morning! :-)

Anonymous

My sister is a flutist.

Damkerng T.

That's pretty neat!

Western flutes goes together well with women. (I think!)

Anonymous

12:13 AM

Certain instruments are more often played by women than men.

Damkerng T.

nods -- A traditional Thai flute is played a bit oboe-like. If you know what I mean.

I wonder if the Pied Piper of Hamelin is a flute or some other instrument.

Anonymous

bsomusic.org/stories/…

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

Pipe (instrument)

A pipe is a tubular wind instrument in general, or various specific wind instruments. The word is an onomatopoeia, and comes from the tone which can resemble that of a bird chirping. == Folk pipe == Fipple flutes are found in many cultures around the world. Often with six holes, the shepherd's pipe is a common pastoral image. Shepherds often piped both to soothe the sheep and to amuse themselves. Modern manufactured six-hole folk pipes are referred to as pennywhistle or tin whistle. The recorder is a form of pipe, often used as a rudimentary instructional musical instrument at schools, but so...

Damkerng T.

@snailboat My intuition seems to make some sense!

This reminds me of the way men and women ride pillion on motorcycles.

Anonymous

12:24 AM

I don't know anything about that. Can you explain?

Damkerng T.

Oh?!

Anonymous

I have to go look up pillion.

Anonymous

Word of the day material, that :-)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... how should I start? Okay, let's say that about a couple decades ago, most women over here wore skirts when they went outside.

@snailboat Hehe!

@snailboat I suppose I know this word because I live in Bangkok. :D

One famous thing about Bangkok is our traffic jams, and it's been with us for so long.

So sometimes when women wanted to go somewhere fast, they had to hire a motorcycle and they would ride pillion.

The way they rode pillion wasn't like the way men do.

I think some women still ride pillion that way. I don't know how to describe their pose.

Anonymous

I know about riding sidesaddle, but that's on horses.

Anonymous

12:29 AM

You need a proper outfit to ride a motorcycle – it's very dangerous!

Damkerng T.

Most of them rode pillion like that.

Anonymous

Yikes!

Damkerng T.

Yep! Quite dangerous!

It's easy to fall off the bike that way.

So we had some campaigns and it took a while, perhaps a decade, before that pose faded out.

Anonymous

I think that's illegal here.

Damkerng T.

But not completely. I think I can still see that sometimes.

@snailboat Quite reasonable!

Anonymous

12:31 AM

Sidesaddle pillion.

Damkerng T.

So sidesaddle is the word. Thanks!

Anonymous

Before my time!

Anonymous

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9750465/…

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Why don't they have to?!

Laws are complicated. :D

"because wearing them (helmets) ruins their hair styles."

o_O

Anonymous

1:29 AM

This question is on the Japanese.SE meta site, but it talks about ELL and EL&U:

Anonymous

1

Q: Should we have a tag for "interesting to native speakers" questions?

As many of you may be aware, there are two sites for English on Stack Exchange: English Language & Usage, and English Language Learners. There is some interesting discussion on ELU meta on what the difference is: ELU is a site intended for "serious linguists." Over time, many non-native spea...

Anonymous

A proposed meta tag!

tchrist

1:45 AM

Never meta tag I didn't not like.

Nihilist_Frost

are there other /θw/ cluster words other than thwart?

Anonymous

How about in names?

Anonymous

→ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenton_Thwaites

Nihilist_Frost

@snailboat Indeed, if it wouldn't count why would people pronounce it with /θw/ in the first place?

/vl/ is usually encountered in Vladimir?

Damkerng T.

Thneedville has an uncommon sequence as well.

Nihilist_Frost

1:53 AM

@DamkerngT. that th isn't silent?

Damkerng T.

(BTW, my cat likes me even more when it's cold.)

@Nihilist_Frost I think they pronounce it in the animation.

> m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhr2gAQF0LA

Around 0:27

Nihilist_Frost

how many clusters appear in only one generic word?

depth?

tchrist

2:37 AM

earthworm

lengthwise

hearthward

northwest

pathway

thwacker

thwait

thwite

thwittle

Nihilist_Frost

4:45 AM

@tchrist There we go

0

Q: I'm in New York since one week

I'm in New York with my parents and my sisters since one week. The sentence is from a letter written by a teacher. Is "since one week" grammatical?

prepositions conjunctions writing

I had to try to guess what he was trying to say when I edited it.

V.V.

6:50 AM

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.@StoneyB,Sorry, just my bad Internet.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

9:54 AM

@snailboat I . . . can't believe I just saw that!

@V.V. Oh. Thank God it wasn't me who drove you away. ^^'

Damkerng T.

10:36 AM

1

Q: What's the difference between 'How long will you stay?' and 'How long will you be staying?'

I was wondering the difference between 'How will you pay?', 'How will you be paying', Somebody told me as follows, How will you pay? - talks more about the ability to pay, can you pay for this How will you be paying? - what you will be using to pay like cash, credit card, etc. Now, I am...

tense

> Somebody told me as follows,
How will you pay? - talks more about the ability to pay, can you pay for this
How will you be paying? - what you will be using to pay like cash, credit card, etc.

Either the language shifted or it's another false rule.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I vote for the latter.

Tense is never so . . . restricted.

And progressive always confuses me when I think about it.

skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/31521/… isn't an answerable question on the internet IMO.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that one.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

People are weird. I'm gonna go and ask "Is ISIS affiliated with aliens? If so, is it the green ones with antennae on the head, or big silver robots?"

Damkerng T.

:D

The green ones would say, "Beware of the red ones" or something along the same lines.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. SHOW ME TO YER MASTER

Points a cute toy gun

Damkerng T.

10:50 AM

Hmm... fun can be a verb, too!

> Are you funning me, son?

> Pacific Rim

Damkerng T.

12:09 PM

Yeah, possibility doesn't take an infinitive complement. Possible doesn't either, except for full subject clauses like (For him) to arrive late is possible, most likely extraposed as It's possible (for him) to arrive late. — John Lawler Nov 15 '15 at 18:15

Hmm...

> As for "possibility to VP", some prescriptive dictionaries assert that it is not allowed, probably because it was not used in the past, and also I found no instances of this construction in TheFreeLibrary (which are generally older works). But it seems that some modern speakers use it even in formal language. Here are examples from the BBC and other major news publishers: [...]
http://ell.stackexchange.com/a/74201/3281

Another language change?

Anonymous

12:36 PM

@DamkerngT. It must be!

Damkerng T.

English is hard!

Anonymous

True. Though all languages change.

Anonymous

All living languages, anyway.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I guess all grammar books are like software specs, in a way.

Perhaps we need agile grammar of English!

Anonymous

Instead, we tend to stick with traditional analyses past their expiration dates. Some traditional analyses work quite well for older forms of the language, but not quite as well today. It all depends, of course.

Damkerng T.

12:42 PM

BTW, The X-Files is back!

Anonymous

Sometimes traditional analyses still work quite well. Language change can be very slow!

Anonymous

I've never seen that show.

Anonymous

But when I was a teenager, some friends dragged me to the X-Files movie.

Damkerng T.

Ah!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. And does it mean "make fun of"?

Anonymous

12:42 PM

It didn't really make sense without seeing the show.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I like the series better.

Anonymous

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/fun

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Funning? I think he meant "kidding".

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Do we get insect spies on X-Flies?

Damkerng T.

It's not very far from "make fun of", I suppose, though I think they aren't quite the same.

Anonymous

12:44 PM

@DamkerngT. Maybe I'll watch it someday.

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I don't know. I've only watched its first episode so far.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Um

Anonymous

Drosophila melanogaster, undercover.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat If you didn't watch the series from a decade ago, I'm not sure if you'll like it.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, I see. That's too bad.

Damkerng T.

12:46 PM

But if you want to see some UFOs, you will see some!

Anonymous

How do you pronounce UFO in Thai?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Well that sounds boring.

Damkerng T.

Like, U-F-O, I think.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

How do you pronounce U?

Damkerng T.

Like you, of course.

Anonymous

12:47 PM

In English, it was originally two syllables (you foe), and it still is in some circles, but it's three today (you eff oh). This came up a while ago on Stack Exchange, I think.

Anonymous

I ask because UFO was borrowed into Japanese as two syllables, and this surprises English speakers who are only familiar with the newer three syllable pronunciation.

Anonymous

I was curious how it was borrowed into Thai :-)

Damkerng T.

But I pronounce U boats with a glottal stop.

Anonymous

Where does the glottal stop go?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I'm not sure myself, but we know UFOs for a very long time.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

12:49 PM

@DamkerngT. How do you pronounce you or U?

Damkerng T.

"?oo", sort of.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Even before UFOs existed?

Anonymous

Oh, I see.

Damkerng T.

I don't know how to write it right on my iPad!

Anonymous

westonruter.github.io/ipa-chart/keyboard

Anonymous

12:50 PM

Does this work?

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Hehe! probably not before.

@snailboat Ah, it seems to work.Thanks!

Anonymous

I think most everyone will understand if you type a question mark, even though it's not technically the right symbol.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I just figured that I could've said that my "U boats" is similar to "Uma (Thurman)".

@snailboat Flying fruits! :P

S.R.I

1:57 PM

@snailboat Oh, I see. This link confirms flutist being older than flautist

Man_From_India

3:36 PM

I am wondering what is the error in the following sentence -

> I do not know who of the new trainees should be confirmed.

I think it's which instead of who, but is it really wrong to use who there?

@StoneyB Is the a fused relative construction or an open interrogative?

It says in fused relative construction the use of who is really rare, except in some restricted cases. But if it's the embedded question then there is no problem using who.

And it looks like it's an embedded question, not a fused relative construction.

Man_From_India

3:58 PM

Oh I figured it out myself. Thanks.

who of the new trainee is never correct. Right?

StoneyB

@Man_From_India CGEL would certainly categorize this as an interrogative. But who there is sort of marginal; it's not exactly ungrammatical but it's odd. I think almost everybody would say which, because you're speaking of a choice rather than an identity.

And that's not a matter of subordination; a straight question would work the same way.

Man_From_India

Right....

StoneyB

BUT: In other circumstances who feels a lot better: Who among these candidates do you think has a chance of winning?

Man_From_India

I have something to offer, please correct me if I am wrong. In Macmillan Dictionary it says both who and which is interrogative pronoun, and relative pronoun. But which is used as a determiner as well as a regular pronoun.

StoneyB

In fact, now I come to think about it, it's really the Who of that triggers my discomfort.

Man_From_India

4:06 PM

Yes who among is no-problem, but I wonder why who of is different.

StoneyB

@Man_From_India Yes. Which candidate, but not *Who candidate.

@Man_From_India That's a very interesting question. Just sort of running it across the surface of my brain, the two phenomena seem related: the determiner/selector works with of, but not the nondeterminer/identifier. Does perhaps of implicate a partitive expression?

I'd like to see what @snailboat and @Araucaria have to say on this.

Damkerng T.

I think we can get similar oddness with what.

*What of the programmers did you meet?

The sentence would be fine with Which.

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. Yes, indeed! ... perhaps it's precisely because we have which available that we don't use who/what.

Damkerng T.

nods

Man_From_India

@StoneyB True that of occurs in partitive construction, but we say that guy (a NP) among the band of robbers ...

So what is wrong with using a pronoun which there instead of a NP?

Damkerng T.

4:17 PM

Meaning, perhaps.

(Check out my What of the programmers sentence.)

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. What is not used as a pronoun like he or she, but which is used like that.

Damkerng T.

What is for things, and who is for people.

StoneyB

I think which among is acceptable--which swings both ways. But who/what only swing one way.

Damkerng T.

Apart from that, they're quite similar.

So, we can try again...

Man_From_India

@StoneyB That is the oddness.

Damkerng T.

4:19 PM

*What of these pens did you use?

Man_From_India

nods

it's odd

Damkerng T.

(I think What among these tools did you use? works too, though perhaps Which still sounds better anyway.)

StoneyB

On the other hand, what can be used as a determiner (What pen did you use?). But that again seems to be an 'identity' question for circumstances where which would be excluded. We'd never say *Which immortal hand or eye Framed thy fearful symmetry?

Damkerng T.

nods

Man_From_India

Very interesting!

StoneyB

4:29 PM

That presupposes a limited set of immortal hands and eyes from which a selection is made, whereas what has no presupposition except that some immortal hand or eye framed the symmetry.

Ah, @Araucaria - a Daniel come to judgment!

Man_From_India

And @snailboat too :-)

Araucaria

@StoneyB No, but I'll do a cogitate and a look up and get to you :)

@StoneyB Do you fancy writing an answer for this?

6

Q: Is "A Star Shoots" a complete sentence?

A star shoots. I read something like this somewhere. Can this be thought of as a complete sentence? How does one analyze this, grammatically? It looks as though it is missing some phrase. On the other hand we do say shooting star, so it isn't very clear if this is a complete sentence or not.

complementation transitivity complete-sentence

Man_From_India

Please let me know about it as well. Keep me in the loop! :-)

Araucaria

@Man_From_India I will! @stoney Do you think who is incompatible with a known set? i.e. it must be kind of indefinite?

Man_From_India

@Araucaria Ummmm I think so.

On that note I believe we can use which with a known-set.

Araucaria

4:40 PM

@Man_From_India Doesn't which always imply a fixed set?

@Man_From_India Maybe not ... Not sure ...

Man_From_India

@Araucaria Yes that is what I mean. For example - from a small gathering we might want to pick up one. Which one?

StoneyB

@Araucaria No, I don't think it's incompatible with a set--it just doesn't implicate a set.

Araucaria

@Man_From_India, @StoneyB I think that which is always considered a determinative by H&P. When it occurs on its own I think it's considered one of those fused Determiner-Heads

@StoneyB Yes, you're right. But it always sounds kind of indefinite to me ...

@StoneyB, @Man_From_India I've got to scoot. I'll come back later and read the rest of your interesting discussion :)

Man_From_India

@Araucaria Yes I agree that which takes part in fused determinative constructions.

but who or what, I think, doesn't.

If we consider that it answers to the question - why it's incorrect to say who of NP is wrong, and why which of NP is right.

But it adds confusion when we say who/which among NP is correct.

StoneyB

Which always implicates an of-set, even if that is not explicit. Who/what do not implicate a set (though a set may be pragmatically implicit), and they resist explicit restriction to a set.

Man_From_India

4:48 PM

As for which pen but not which in Which immortal hand or eye Framed thy fearful symmetry?, I think this old school approach will help

dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/…

here it says "We use what when we ask about specific information from a general range of possible answers:"

"We use which when we ask for specific information from a restricted range of possible answers:"

StoneyB

If you ask Who will win the election?, I am free to name someone who has not declared herself a candidate, such as Liz Warren. If you ask Which will win the election?, you presuppose restriction to a set previously mentioned, or a set known to all participants in the discourse; if I don't think any of those will win I say "None of 'em--Liz Warren's gonna declare in March and sweep all before her."

@Man_From_India Perzackly. And who falls in the same camp as what.

Man_From_India

But who among and who of is still confusing :(

G2g...see you later.

Damkerng T.

5:19 PM

o/

I thought tonight would be warmer than last night, but no!

CopperKettle

6:38 PM

@snailboat Cool!

Russian song accompanied by Irish flute (Brian Finnegan)

Irish flute

The term Irish Flute (Irish: fliúít Gaelach) or "Scottish Flute" (in a Scottish setting) refers to a conical-bore, simple-system wooden flute of the type favoured by classical flautists of the early 19th century, or to a flute of modern manufacture derived from this design (often with modifications to optimize its use in Irish Traditional Music or Scottish Traditional Music). The vast majority of traditional Irish flute players use a wooden, simple-system flute. Although it was, and is, played in every county in Ireland, the flute has a very strong heartland in the mid-western counties of Sligo...

The song is called "Stakany" (Стаканы, Glasses). "Come put some glasses on the table, along with other tableware. Everybody says drinking is wrong, but I won't stop".

It is quite a hit here. (0:

But in between this refrain, the singer makes it clear that drinking is not soo good, in a jocular way.

The stanzas make it clear. (0:

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

7:24 PM

Hullo @V.V. I have a question.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

7:34 PM

in The Periodic Table, 18 secs ago, by Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Automobile Chat Addiction Disorder. O_o

in The Periodic Table, 22 secs ago, by Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Dam must have it.