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12:50 AM
A couple days ago, I mentioned serial commas...
2 days ago, by Damkerng T.
Most style guides or comma usage rules mention only the case of serial commas when there are three or more items in the list...
So I searched a bit, and found three pages worth mentioning.
> COMMA RULE #1 – THE COMMA IN A SERIES: Use commas to separate items in a series.
> ​  (A “series” is a list of 3 or more items, the last two of which are joined by and, or, or nor. )
> COMMA RULE #2 – THE COMMA WITH COORDINATE ADJECTIVES: Use commas between coordinate adjectives.
> ​  (e.g. We saw a lively, happy poodle.)
> ​  (but We saw a young golden retriever.)
> COMMA RULE #3 – THE COMMA IN A COMPOUND SENTENCE: Use a comma before and, but, or, nor, for, so, or yet to join two independent clauses that form a compound sentence.
> ​  (e.g. Joe read the book, and he saw the movie.)
> ​  (but Joe read the book and saw the movie.)
> COMMA RULE #4 – THE COMMA WITH INTRODUCTORY WORDS: Place a comma after introductory phrases that tell where, when, why, or how.
> ​  (e.g. During the hot summer of 1984, the temperatures set records.)
> ​  (but The temperatures set records during the hot summer of 1984.)
> COMMA RULE #5 – THE COMMA WITH NONESSENTIAL WORDS, PHRASES, AND CLAUSES: Separate with a comma any nonessential words or groups of words from the rest of the sentence.
> ​  (e.g. The man forgot, however, where he had placed his keys.)
The second is Grammar Bytes!.
Even though I doubt this reasoning in the page: "Stephanie refuses to go water-skiing with us because she is afraid of getting sliced by the boat propeller, tangling with a snake, becoming an alligator's lunch, or having a brain-sucking amoeba crawl up her nose."
(cont.) Some handbooks will tell you that the comma before the last item in the series—the serial comma—is unnecessary. Although you do have the option of leaving it out, the editorial policy of many magazines, newspapers, and book companies is to use a comma before the coordinating conjunction. You will, as a result, notice its presence in many of the professional publications you read.
(cont.) I find that the advice to maintain parallel structure when you use equal grammatical units is sound.
> NOT THIS: Harry spent his afternoon playing tennis, returning overdue library books, and then he ate a mushroom and pineapple pizza.
> BUT THIS: Harry spent his afternoon playing tennis, returning overdue library books, and eating a mushroom and pineapple pizza.
> OR THIS: This afternoon, Harry played tennis, returned overdue library books, and ate a mushroom and pineapple pizza.
Though it's basically similar to the other two, it has this:
> Must you use a comma before the conjunction in a series of items?
Short answer: Yes.
> Long answer: You may be wondering about the comma before the conjunction. Isn't it optional you ask?? Well, it depends on whom you ask. The Gregg Reference Manual recommends always putting a comma before the last item in a series, even if a conjunction is used. My 1973 issue of Warriner's English Grammar and Composition says "It is permissible to omit the comma before the and joining the last two items in a series if the comma is not needed to make the meaning clear."
> (cont.) Writers Inc. recommends using a comma before the conjunction and makes no mention of an exception. I've noticed that the Washington Post routinely omits the comma before the conjunction. The Penguin Dictionary of American English Usage and Style sheds some light on the question.
> (cont.) The Penguin Dictionary claims that newspapers omit the comma before the conjunction but books use the comma. The Penguin Dictionary goes on to recommend the use of the comma before the conjunction because "A comma and a conjunction have different functions. A comma separates items; a conjunction joins them."
What's interesting the most and shed light on my two-item list problem is the "Exceptions and Curiosities" section:
> When a conjunction appears before each item in the series, use no commas.
> ​e.g. Ruth plays field hockey and basketball and soccer.
So, if I follow this, I shouldn't use a comma in a two-item list, e.g.
> Ruth plays field hockey and basketball.
Another mystery solved!
 
1:53 AM
I don't know if I should laugh or cry...
Because I just found that Macmillan Dictionary defines nefarious as "evil, or dishonest".
(Note the comma.)
 
 
3 hours later…
4:24 AM
Good morning @DamkerngT.
And a happy Sunday :-)
A really good question I found here -
3
Q: 'I have decided to purchase a jet for getting to NYC and back more quickly.'

pazzoAre the following sentences grammatical or not? If not, does substituting a to-infinite make them grammatical? (Optional: designate if the sentence expresses purpose, reason, aim, or function) 1 I have decided to purchase a jet for getting to NYC and back more quickly. 2 I have decided...

Please have a look, and if you know anything about it, please share :-)
 
 
3 hours later…
7:24 AM
@Man_From_India My first feelings (on the scale of 1-7, where 1 = unacceptable, 7 = perfectly idiomatic) for the five example sentences: 4, 4, 4, 1, 2.
I haven't read the resources he linked to in the question, but I think I generally agree with the two upvoted answers.
PEU 207 for: purpose and cause
In any case, it's always interesting to see native speakers assess marginal sentences.
This time it's almost like seeing non-native speakers trying to choose the right preposition for a sentence.
My idea about choosing a preposition is that it's usually like a tug-of-war between the words before the proposition and the words after it. (Each word or group of words has or have its or their own collocations.) Sometimes the left side wins, sometimes the right. Sometimes it's obvious which side will win, sometimes it's not.
It's a similar tug-of-war here because when talking about purpose, the verb wants a to-infinitive (most of the time) or for + noun, while the object fights to have its for + verb-ing.
Why the tug-of-war?
A demonstration to show that nouns want for + verb-ing, not a to-infinitive:
> a) This cake is for eating.
> b) *This cake is to eat.
NOTE: Not to be confused with a similar but entirely different pattern: This is a cake {for eating/to eat}.
 
7:51 AM
Okay :) i will see what PEU has to say about it. Now I m on my phone.
 
A demonstration to show that verbs want a to-infinitive, not for + verb-ing, when it's about a purpose:
> a) We stopped to look.
> b) #We stopped for looking.
> c) We stopped for a look.
b) was marked # because it's grammatical but in a different meaning.
Hmm... that's not quite right. I think b) is not really grammatical. What I was thinking of was something like We were stopped for looking.
If this is not weird enough:
> ​My neighbor and I have decided to cooperate more for having a better life together.
try this:
> My neighbor and I have decided for cooperating more for having a better life together.
 
 
6 hours later…
2:18 PM
Thank you @DamkerngT. for the PEU reference, and based on that I wrote an answer to that for*/*to question -
0
A: 'I have decided to purchase a jet for getting to NYC and back more quickly.'

Man_From_IndiaWe can use both constructions to express purpose - to-infinitive and for+verb-ing. In answer to the question asking "WHY", a to-infinitive is often used. On the other hand, in answer to the question asking "WHAT FOR", we use for+verb-ing or for+noun. This is not very helpful as both the questio...

 
2:41 PM
@Man_From_India I'm glad it can help.
But I think we can use PEU 270.2 as the reason for saying why it should be I need Sam to complete the mission. (NOT ...for completing the mission).
I mean, if we use 270.2 to argue that, it should be the same for I need glasses for reading (because the subject of the clause is a person).
But I do think that need is special.
 
Yes I usually do look at dictionaries for the preferred pattern first.
If there is no preferred pattern then I look at the PEU guide :-)
In case of need....the pattern in dictionary is need + something + for
but COCA says need + something + to is also common.
 
This reminds me of complement vs. adjunct.
 
Maybe (just maybe) if the for + verb-ing is a complement of a verb (like I need glasses for reading), it'll be fine.
But if it's an adjunct (of the verb), perhaps a to-infinitive is preferred.
 
2:48 PM
(i.e. according to PEU 270.1-3)
 
yes that is very correct I think
How? I couldn't connect that to the PEU reference.
 
I mean, if it's an adjunct, it should follow the general pattern as described in PEU.
 
Oh I see...right...
 
In other words, I'm speculating that all exceptions are complements. :P
 
In Op's example sentences, right?
 
2:52 PM
Yes. But it should be the same in any other sentences too.
 
right
 
(e.g. He uses soap for washing his face.)
Hmm... does that sound a bit off?
 
Again complement...
now I know the rule...it does :-) yesterday it wouldn't have seemed odd :D
 
nods -- I think use with for + verb-ing is common enough.
But probably to-infinitive is even more common.
 
Somehow it's soap for washing face -> NP
He uses [NP].
writing an answer for that = because question
 
2:59 PM
Oh, the numbers of results of "soap for washing our" and "soap to wash our" are not much different from each other!
(on Google Books)
 
I had once when I was in school bought an old book, it's written by Hornby...it's tradition grammar book, very old book...don't know what is the name of that book :-( but it is a very good book for a learner.
 
Ah, this is from 1869:
> We had to buy our own soap for washing our own persons and clothing ; ...
Probably it's the same text in all those books.
 
In COCA soap for washing -> 2 and soap to wash -> 9 hit
 
nods
 
But I was thinking if at all for construction incorrect? though not preferred.
 
3:03 PM
That's what I was thinking too. PEU 270.2 simply says that "it is more common".
 
yes i noticed that :D
I am done with that = because question. Here is the answer -
0
A: Can we avoid using 'because' in these sentences?

Man_From_IndiaIn the example sentences you quoted, neither that nor to have means because. But that as a conjunction introduces a subordinate clause that often expresses the reason. But when? The conjunction that may also introduce adverbial clauses of cause. Such clauses usually follow a main clause that i...

 
> I'm not a cow that you should expect me to eat grass! -- Mmm...
 
@DamkerngT. So if this is more common, can we say the for construction is uncommon but not incorrect. I think we can. And COCA and google book data supports that, at least our soap example :-)
 
@Man_From_India I'm more comfortable with saying it's more common than saying it's ungrammatical.
 
@DamkerngT. I am also surprised by that sentence, I don't think it is expressing any reason, rather to me the that there means therefore.
 
3:13 PM
Yes!
I don't think replacing that that with because there will work.
But such that should work.
 
But it's from that book...the title pages are gone...even the book is in a very bad condition...i don't know if that book is still available or not. I bought a old copy in a discounted price when I was in school, I think around 2000.
@DamkerngT. nods
 
Maybe it's special. (I wonder if it works in a non-negative sentence.)
 
It says only negative sentences are allowed for this kind of constructions.
 
I daresay that this makes sense:
> I'm not a cow for you shouldn't expect me to eat grass!
(i.e. to make it works as if it were a because, I have to negate the subordinate clause.)
 
That is what I was thinking when I was writing (copying, actually) it :D
was on call
 

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