Language Overflow

CopperKettle

18:18

@DamkerngT. I was browsing through my poetry quotes and found one that might be suitable for that question regarding a translation of a Japanese saying.

"Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind".

(Shakespeare)

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

Did Shakespeare speak Japanese? :P

It's quite similar to the Japanese saying.

CopperKettle

(0:

0

A: Is there any similar idiom/proverb to Japanese proverb -Gesu no kanguri

"Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind" (Shakespeare)

King Henry VI, Part III

"Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind;
The thief doth fear each bush an officer."

Hanaa

CopperKettle

@Hanaa Nice kettle!

Hanaa

:D

How about the cake?

CopperKettle

18:25

Is there a cake?

Damkerng T.

Is that red object a kettle too?

CopperKettle

Ah, I see it now!

Hanaa

@DamkerngT. yes it is

CopperKettle

@Hanaa "Yes, there is" (0:

Damkerng T.

@Hanaa A-ha! Two nice kettles in one picture!

CopperKettle

18:27

(0:

Hanaa

I made the cake in the coffee time, so i put kettle for fun

Damkerng T.

Nice!

Looks like chocolate cake, but I'm not sure.

Hanaa

It is a chocolate flan cake

Damkerng T.

Ah, I was right!

CopperKettle

Those that much covet are with gain so fond,
For what they have not, that which they possess
They scatter and unloose it from their bond,
And so, by hoping more, they have but less;
Or, gaining more, the profit of excess
Is but to surfeit, and such griefs sustain,
That they prove bankrupt in this poor-rich gain.

(Shakespeare, "The Life of Buddha", Act III Scene 5)

tchrist

18:32

I have a horrible confession.

I prefer tetrameter to pentameter.

Damkerng T.

Hah, didn't know he wrote anything about the Buddha!

tchrist

I also like ballad meter.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. I know, it just sounded like it. It's from The Rape of Lucrece. It has some other great quotes..

@tchrist I know nothing about meters.. (0:

tchrist

I think my problem wit pentameter is that the resultant 5/4 time is a ponderous one musically.

@CopperKettle It's how many feet in a line, so stresses.

CopperKettle

Yes, I have a vague understanding, but I never cared about it...

tchrist

18:37

Your Shakespeare example is pentameter because it has five stressed feet.

CopperKettle

I see.

tchrist

It’s mostly iambic, so short-LONG in each foot. There's some variation.

CopperKettle

But it's still beautiful.

tchrist

Oh it is.

I have no dispute.

It’s easier to set meters with 4 beats per line to a song.

Or with 3. Or with 4/3/4/3.

You know the Great Gates of Kiev?

CopperKettle

@tchrist Is this a poem?

tchrist

18:41

Mussorgsky

CopperKettle

Nope.. I know about Mussorgsky, of course. We had some music lessons at school, but just did nothing during them..

tchrist

Oh maybe it was Promenade. It's from Pictures at an Exhibition.

It has a weird time signature.

> Mussorgsky composed the piece very quickly, although he was drunk a lot of the time.

hah

CopperKettle

Yes, he was a tippler.

I remember his face. (0:

Modest Mussorgsky

Modest Petrovich Mussorgsky (Russian: Модест Петрович Мусоргский; IPA: [mɐˈdʲɛst pʲɪˈtrovʲɪtɕ ˈmusərkskʲɪj]; 21 March [O.S. 9 March] 1839 – 28 March [O.S. 16 March] 1881) was a Russian composer, one of the group known as "The Five". He was an innovator of Russian music in the romantic period. He strove to achieve a uniquely Russian musical identity, often in deliberate defiance of the established conventions of Western music. Many of his works were inspired by Russian history, Russian folklore, and other nationalist themes. Such works include the opera Boris Godunov, the orchestral tone poem Night...

tchrist

Modest Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition: Promenade (piano version)

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That's in 11/4, although typically published these days in 5/4 + 6/4 alternations switching every measure.

CopperKettle

It's a well known tune.

tchrist

18:44

Indeed.

I was just thinking of awkward meters.

I really like Pictures.

CopperKettle

It's nice.

tchrist

There are some nice Eastern European pieces with interesting meters. I think Slavic folk tunes often enjoy 7.

Thai and Hungarian use 7/4 too.

The 7/4 style can run ONE-two ONE-two ONE-two-three.

> Béla Bartók sometimes adopted septuple dance rhythms from the folk music of Eastern Europe, as in "Bulgarian Rhythm (1)" and the second of the "Six Dances in Bulgarian Rhythm", nos. 113 and 149 from Mikrokosmos, both of which are in 7/4

Our folk music is usually in 4.

So tetrameter works well for that.

CopperKettle

nods

tchrist

This is in 7:

War Requiem Op. 66: Quam olim Abrahae promisisti

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It has a dancing liveliness to it.

Damkerng T.

There are several kinds of Thai poems, one uses 9-7-9-7.

CopperKettle

18:53

@tchrist Video Unavailable

tchrist

Oh.

@CopperKettle Here at 2:19

Tölzer Knabenchor(1992) - War Requiem(Britten).wmv

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If they let you see that one.

CopperKettle

Of classic music, I love this (I've no idea what meter it is)

Beethoven: String Quart Op.18-4 1/3 Amadeus (12.1969)

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@tchrist Yes, it's visible. The first one is probably visible too via Tor Browser.

tchrist

That's in 4/4, common time. Meter is just one of many, many elements to music.

CopperKettle

I'm greatly remiss on Russian folk music...

Ой, мороз мороз - Oi, moroz moroz

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(recalled this off the top of my head)

And this is good

С.Лемешев Коробейники/S.Lemeshev Russian Folk Song

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(about hawkers)

(the first one is about frost; the singer asks the frost to spare him and his horse)

Song of Stenka Razin. Russian folk song. Из-за острова на стрежень.

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(about the "noble bandit" Stenka Razin who captured a large chunk of Russia in the 17th century, and attacked Persia)

In the song, he throws the captured Persian girl overboard and she drowns

He basically navigated up and down Volga River and wrecked havoc for some years

Becoming a folk hero.

And here's the favous Shalyapin siging "Along Piterskaya Street" (about 1920)

Here's a great Ukrainian song, "You Fooled Me" (very popular across the former USSR)

Strange to see it performed in Russia, but it was 2007.

I've no idea about meters there. (0:

Here's an ancient soldiers' song (some 200 years' old, great song)

Here's My dear, take me with thou, performed in a hippie folk ballad way.

A girl asks a traveller to take her as wife to his native land. He replies that he has a wife. She asks to take her as sister. He says he has one. She asks to take her as a stranger. He replies that he needs no strangers in his land.

It turns out I knew quite a lot of songs.

Are there some great folks songs in your land, @Hanaa?

Hanaa

19:31

She asked him! the poor woman

There are many ^_^

CopperKettle

Yes, a great song, and a great rendition. I never heard it sung that well.

Hanaa

A famous song: Why did my candle stop lightening my days

CopperKettle

@Hanaa Is there a youtube video of it?

Hanaa

It is in Algerian

I don't think you can understand it

CopperKettle

No problem. (0:

Hanaa

19:36

Ok :D

كمال مسعودي مالي ومال الشمعة..

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CopperKettle

@Hanaa Nice!

"My candle burns at both (the?) ends;
It will not last the night;
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends—
It gives a lovely light!"

Hanaa

So beautiful lines

CopperKettle

Yes, it's Millay! Great lines

"The official language of Algeria is Modern Standard Arabic (literary Arabic), as specified in its constitution since 1963."

Hanaa

Yes

CopperKettle

Do you like Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan?

Hanaa

19:45

Who is he?

CopperKettle

The only arabic singer I know. (0:

Makhi Madni by Ustad Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan

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Or maybe it's not Arabic

This song is great, it's like Frank Zappa, only in slightly other style

It's about Mecca and Medina

Hanaa

I think he's African

CopperKettle

nods

He was from Pakistan

Hanaa

So he is Asian

CopperKettle

"Considered one of the greatest voices ever recorded, he possessed an extraordinary range of vocal abilities and could perform at a high level of intensity for several hours."

Hanaa

19:48

waw!

Is he still alive?

CopperKettle

نصرت فاتح علي خان (13 أكتوبر 1948 - 16 أغسطس 1997)، كان موسيقارااً باكستانياً ومغنياً للقوالي وهي موسيقى تعبدية خاصة بالمتصوفة. يعتبر واحداً من أعظم الأصوات المسجلة على الإطلاق وكان يمتلك مجموعة استثنائية من القدرات الصوتية[1][2][3][4] وكان بإمكانه الغناء بمستوى عال من الحدة الصوتية لعدة ساعات متواصلة. حافظ خان على تقليد غناء القوالي المستمرة في عائلته منذ 600 سنة، ويعود إليه الفضل في تقديم موسيقى القوالي إلى الجمهور الدولي.[5] وهو معروف شعبياً بـ "شاهنشاه القوالي" أي "ملك ملوك القوالي".[6]

@Hanaa Alas, no, he died in 1997.

tchrist

Hello?

Hanaa

Hi!

Why alas?

CopperKettle

@Hanaa "alas" means "It is sad"

Hanaa

ah ok

Maybe he is in Paradise now

CopperKettle

19:51

He must be.

Hanaa

Will u celebrate Cristmas parties there? @CopperKettle

CopperKettle

Yes.

Hanaa

SO u have to send me some chocolate

CopperKettle

(0:

But in Russia the real holiday is New Year. And Xmas is on 12th of 13th of January.

Hanaa

I see

tchrist

19:57

It used to be Christmas. The Soviets eradicated it.

CopperKettle

Yes, most likely.

Hanaa

How?

tchrist

npr.org/2015/12/19/460186573/…

That's how.

CopperKettle

@Hanaa By killing priests, destroying churches, etc.

Hanaa

oh!

CopperKettle

19:59

A street I walk each day is named after a guy who drowned a priest with his bare hands in a lake.

Hanaa

oooh

Aren't u cristians there?

CopperKettle

Yes, now we are. (0:

But renaming the streets back is too expensive. (0:

Hanaa

hhhh

CopperKettle

The region is still called Sverdlovskaya Oblast, in honor of a Communist guy

Hanaa

emmm

CopperKettle

20:03

So we live in a city named by Peter I in honor of a Christian saint, and the region is called in honor of a Communist. (0:

LOL

Yakov Sverdlov

Yakov Mikhailovich Sverdlov (Russian: Я́ков Миха́йлович Свердло́в; IPA: [ˈjakəf mʲɪˈxajləvʲɪtɕ svʲɪrdˈlof]; known under pseudonyms "Andrei", "Mikhalych", "Max", "Smirnov", "Permyakov"; 3 June [O.S. 22 May] 1885 – 16 March 1919) was a Bolshevik party leader and chairman of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee. == Early life == Sverdlov was born in Nizhny Novgorod as Yakov Mikhailovich Sverdlov to Jewish parents Mikhail Izrailevich Sverdlov and Elizaveta Solomonova. His father was a politically active engraver who eventually went into forgery, and arms storage and dealing partially to support...

My grand-grand parents were White Army fighters on one side and Red Army fighters on the other.

(0:

One guy from my family has a street named after him in Rezh. (He participated in the October Revolution and stuff)

Hanaa

Peter vs Sverdlov

CopperKettle

yep

Hanaa

They fight in two sides?

CopperKettle

Yes, on the father's side the grand-granddad was a Cossack with a White army.

He threw bombs from aircraft and got wounded.

So he returned to the Communist occupied territory and nobody informed on him.

Hanaa

WAWWWW

CopperKettle

20:08

On Mom's side, a grand-grand dad was a devout Communist who helped Comminist guerillas.

A blacksmith

Hanaa

yes

CopperKettle

Yekaterinburg was occupied for some time by the Whites, and they went "underground". He was caught, but the Whites kept him alive.

Hanaa

Did he make kettles?

CopperKettle

I guess he made everything.

He had a big brick house, which was cool in those times.

Hanaa

yes

CopperKettle

20:10

THe Whites made him work on their horses, in the way of repaying his deeds. Fix the hooves etc.

Hanaa

yes

So the whites are the enemy of communists?

CopperKettle

Yes, the White Army was against the communists.

Sadly, the Whites lost.

Hanaa

Were your grand-grand parents enemies?

CopperKettle

They knew nothing of each other. (0: They just happened to fight on different sides.

Hanaa

ah ok

fine then

CopperKettle

20:13

But my "communist" family grew disenchanted with Communism by 1950s

The granddad called Stalin a butcher, etc.

Hanaa

yes

and turned into what?

CopperKettle

@Hanaa People used to change sides during the war. Some White officers started educating the Red army actually.

@Hanaa Up intil 1987, you could not profess your views openly, so they just turned into a usual family. (0:

Hanaa

Were they communist and turned white or what?

CopperKettle

@Hanaa No, the Whites were long gone. The last Whites were driven away in 1922.

The Whites went to Turkey, China, France, Germany, USA.

Hanaa

yes

CopperKettle

20:17

People kinda liked the idea of communism in the 1960 but understood that it was all hokum.

The general idea is nice.

Hanaa

Unfortunatly

CopperKettle

But is impossible to achieve.

Hanaa

To achieve what?

CopperKettle

Communism is impossible, I guess. WHen all people live without money in a kind of equal society.

Hanaa

DO u live without money?

CopperKettle

20:21

No. (0: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

Hanaa

I think fairness is better

everyone takes his right

CopperKettle

I agree.

Hanaa

which is absent; in my country

CopperKettle

That's bad.

Hanaa

fairness vanished when the prophet died

Authorities lost values

CopperKettle

20:25

nods

Hanaa

But we are happy anyway :D

CopperKettle

Same here. (0:

Hanaa

What does the clock tell there?

Here it is 9:30 pm

CopperKettle

01:30 a.m.

Hanaa

aaa still early!

CopperKettle

20:27

? (0:

Hanaa

oooops

it's tooooooooooooooo late

CopperKettle

It's quite advanced. But you could call it a very early morning. (0:

Hanaa

:D

How to Stay Calm When Pupils Misbehave | Classroom Management

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You should be tired @CopperKettle

CopperKettle

Yes, I should catch some z's. (0:

Hanaa

ok

so do i

Happy night

CopperKettle

20:31

Good night, Hanaa!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

20:43

Oh jeez, just when I thought meta is fun again and without drama. — Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. 11 secs ago

You see, there are many "filters" an utterance should pass in order to be acceptable and not gain weird looks. I can always say "the bombastic witch was eaten by a happy cup." and that's grammatical but would you recommend anyone to say it? Likewise, imagine that I ask "how was your day?" and you answer "three bars of chocolate." Is this to be considered recommended usage? — Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. 21 secs ago

Hey @Dam that's my comment.

We study those in Persian, and one day I'm gonna study them in English – these "filters".

Damkerng T.

What?! "the bombastic witch was eaten by a happy cup"!

LOL

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. I have a crazy mind.

Damkerng T.

Your "how was your day?" "three bars of chocolate." makes me think of a Thai saying.

"Where did you go?" "Three yards two feet."

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

There we go . . . so what does it remind you of?

Damkerng T.

("ไปไหนมา" "สามวาสองศอก")

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

20:53

Grave?

Damkerng T.

No, just a similar saying for when a reply doesn't match the question.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Ahh

Damkerng T.

BTW, Interstellar was a fun ride, though I think it's less Nolan-like than the Dark Knight trilogy.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

My classmate recommends me everyday to watch it.

Damkerng T.

Haha!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

20:56

> A molecule: What? I didn't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.

Damkerng T.

Another robot-related quote from the movie:

> TARS: [as Cooper repairs him] Settings. General settings. Security settings.
TARS: Honesty, new setting: ninety-five percent.
TARS: Confirmed. Additional settings.
Cooper: Humor, seventy-five percent.
TARS: Confirmed. Self destruct sequence in T minus 10, 9...
Cooper: Let's make that sixty percent.
TARS: Sixty percent, confirmed. Knock knock.
Cooper: You want fifty-five?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

BTW @Dam set a timer for 6 days and 18 hours from now and tell me when it's up.

Damkerng T.

Eh? Christmas?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Close.

MARmas

Damkerng T.

Not sure I get it, but I will try to, if I can remember, I mean. :D

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

21:00

The point is you shouldn't get it.

StoneyB

21:22

@tchrist Poets (and actors) will tell you that the mature English pentameter is in 4, 5 stress feet parceled among 4 'beats' -- it's that fifth foot floating between beats that gives the line its incredible variety and flexibility.

tchrist

That's interesting.

StoneyB

whAn that Avrill with his shOUres sOOte / the vEyne of mArch hath pErced to the rOOte / and bAthed everich vEYne in swIch licOUr / of whIch vertu engEndred is the flOUr ...

tchrist

Drought of March, no?

StoneyB

Yes of course 'doh.

nOw is the wInter of our dIscontEnt / made glORious sUmmer by this sUn of yOrk / and All the clOUds that lOWred about our hOUse / in the dEEp bOsom of the Ocean bUried.

tchrist

21:39

The iambs and trochees vary?

Alliterative poetry has a variable number of syllables but a constant number of beats.

@StoneyB Lots of paired non-stressed things there.

StoneyB

By feel it's really more that one of the five "feet" loses its metrical "stress" to become more a series of pickups to the following downbeat. If you look for an underlying dotted-quarter / dotted-quarter / quarter-rest pattern in each hemistich you'll usually find it.

And, yeah, it's prolly a result of the collision of the native four-beat line with the classical/french metric tradition.

tchrist

Your last sentence exactly echoed my own musing.

StoneyB

Graves has a little essay called 'Harp, Anvil, Oar' that talks about it from a professional point of view; Northrop Frye's section on melos in the Anatomy is the view of a traditional LitCrit guy.

tchrist

22:17

Such a name, that Frye.

StoneyB

I used to annoy hell out of my Crit professors by referring casually to the Frygean school.

tchrist

22:33

Turnabout is fair play.

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