Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

17:11

in English Language & Usage, 25 mins ago, by snailboat

Progressive be needing is perfectly grammatical but really quite restricted.

in English Language & Usage, 24 mins ago, by snailboat

> Unlike what Nobel Economics Laureate Milton Friedman had predicted, that nations don't need reserves under flexible exchange rates, economies in practice are needing more and more reserves today under a floating exchange regime than they ever needed under fixed exchange rates.

in English Language & Usage, 24 mins ago, by snailboat

> Yeah, there's no question that exercise has a biological effect. It affects metabolism. It affects a lot of body biochemistry. We don't know if it effects endorphin levels, but it certainly affects other neurotransmitters, so they may be needing more and more and more exercise, but they talked about the psychological reasons, not only the physiological reasons, how it makes them feel about themselves.

in English Language & Usage, 23 mins ago, by snailboat

One of the situations it's restricted to is this sort of "waxing/waning" type of use, as you can see from the examples above.

in English Language & Usage, 19 mins ago, by snailboat

Whether progressive be needing works depends on whether you can successfully construe it as a dynamic verb rather than a stative one, as stative verbs don't appear in the progressive construction. And to do that, it has to be compatible with the type of dynamic meaning you want to add. The waxing/waning thing is just one example. There are other sorts, like indicating that a state is temporary, for example.

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. A followed by B meaning = B comes at first, A comes second

isn't it?

Damkerng T.

A <---

is followed by --> B.

Crazy Ninja

sorry. didn't get that :(

Damkerng T.

Oh, okay!

> [A] . . . [B (sneaking behind)]

B is following A.

A is followed by B.

Crazy Ninja

Okay. is makes me to understand it clearly. So the correct meaning is A goes first then B is coming. am i correct? :D

Damkerng T.

17:22

Yes.

Crazy Ninja

thanks :)

Damkerng T.

No problem!

Damkerng T.

17:36

The Next Generation of Dr. Seuss!

Warning: Viewer discretion is advised

> ## Winners Aren't Losers

Winners aren't losers.
　They're **winners**
　　　--like me!
　　　A loser's a loser.
　　　　Which one will you be?

Winners do deals
　And winners
　　get **rich!**
While sad
　little losers
　　Just sit there
　　　and bitch.

This dog is a loser
　And frankly I pity it.
The dog did bad deals.
　This dog is an idiot.

And poor Mr. Bear.
　He must feel
　　like a loser
　　　valet-ing that
　　　　2006 PT Cruiser!

The lobster's a loser.
　Throw him in the pot!
　　I like a lobster

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3364154/…

Crazy Ninja

good one

Time for bed. Good night! @DamkerngT. @snailboat have a good time! :)

Damkerng T.

Good night!

skimming through I’m loving you -- and knowing it too: Aspect and so-called stative verbs...

> In the present paper we take a functional-semantic approach and argue that all so-called stative verbs can potentially be used in the progressive.

Ah, the Corpus of Historical American English!

Where is it?

Oh, it's COHA

> The results showed that overall, there was no statistically significant change, although for a small number of verbs, an increase in relative frequency could be observed. This was true of for instance love, regret, want and wish i.e. verbs expressing emotion and attitude.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Nice.

"I’m Nobody! Who are you?
Are you – Nobody – too?
Then there’s a pair of us!
Don’t tell! they’d advertise – you know!

How dreary – to be – Somebody!
How public – like a Frog –
To tell one’s name – the livelong day–
To an admiring Bog!"

Damkerng T.

17:51

Emily Dickinson's!

How dreary it is!

CopperKettle

(0:

"I'm Nobody!" is one of Dickinson’s most popular poems, Harold Bloom writes, because it addresses “a universal feeling of being on the outside."

ISIS terrorists might love it. (0:

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

18:18

2

Q: Mom and Dad as a phrase; Do we need articles in "I have (a) Mum and (a) Dad..."?

I am a bit confused with a correct usage of Mom and Dad and articles. My daughter wrote a short essay starting from: "Hello my name is ... and I am going to tell you about me. I have a Mum and Dad..." At first she used "Mum" as she always does in school. I found that the word mum is more about...

articles

This is a very good question.

Damkerng T.

18:53

With the specific phrase "some years," it means a significant amount of years, ie. a long time. I would consider it more than "a few years" and interchangeable with "many years." As an American, I associate the phrasing "some years" with older people, whereas I would expect a younger person to say "many years," or even just "Years!" with emphasis on the word. — MysteriousWhisper Nov 16 at 22:25

Language changes!

Anonymous

A few, some, and many are all rather vague, but I would say a few < some < many.

Anonymous

I would not say that some is interchangeable with many.

Anonymous

I also think we should treat what they said about the age of a speaker as a hypothesis – it could be true, but we shouldn't assume it is.

Anonymous

Language does change, sometimes faster than we expect.

Anonymous

But a lot of the time when our intuition tells us language is changing, it turns out to be an illusion.

Anonymous

19:02

People who speak a language aren't always very good at gauging how it's changing without actually looking at evidence across time.

Anonymous

That's why we have, for example, the Recency Illusion.

Anonymous

Honestly, people are wrong about that sort of thing a lot.

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure if it's really a good idea to try to gauge whether some (years) is a short period of time or a long period of time without a real context.

some seems to be able to be really vague.

Anonymous

Yeah, I think it could be a little closer to a few or a little closer to many.

Damkerng T.

(Though I think it's fair to assume that knowing someone for some years > 1 year and less than since my childhood.)

Anonymous

19:09

Well, I think they can all represent different number ranges depending on context and such.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I don't mean to suggest that the three are strictly ordered.

Damkerng T.

I understood.

0

Q: Is it grammatically correct to use "my eyes get open" in following sentence?

I want to sleep until my eyes open without this annoying alarm. Is this sentence correct?

grammar phrase-usage phrase

Sometimes the creativity can be quite amazing!

Anonymous

I think that, with a countable plural head, some can be anything ≥ 2

Damkerng T.

I think it's probably correct, grammatically.

@snailboat nods -- It's the same game only kids love to play over here.

Anonymous

19:15

But if the number is large, there's an expectation that you'll say so, for example by using a degree determinative like many.

Damkerng T.

We (me and my friends) used that a lot in our funny arguments. :D

Anonymous

So if there were 30,000 protesters outside the door, and you told your boss "Hey, there are some protesters outside", you might be accused of understatement, even if what you said was technically true :-)

Damkerng T.

I might get away with a good lawyer. :P

Anonymous

By the way, I just added ≤ and ≥ to my input method dictionary :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I thought they were always there!

They're cool, BTW.

Anonymous

19:17

It came with ≦ and ≧ built-in.

Anonymous

In Japanese, ≦ and ≧ tend to be used where we tend to use ≤ and ≥ in English.

Damkerng T.

Oh, hmm... which pair is better?

Ahh

Anonymous

It's a Japanese input method, so I guess that's why it only had the former.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@snailboat By the way, I just added ≤ and ≥ to my input method dictionary :-)

Damkerng T.

I don't have any input method dictionary!

Anonymous

19:18

Sometimes mathematical symbols have different conventions in different languages.

Anonymous

Like for example, in Japanese and Korean ≒ is used where in English we tend to use ≈

Damkerng T.

I'm sure I'll feel weird when I see ≒.

If we add another curvy line to ≈, it'll look like a symbol for Air!

Anonymous

You can use ≈ in Japanese, but I think English speakers tend to be unfamiliar with ≒.

Anonymous

There's also ≃

Damkerng T.

Ah, I think I've seen that one before.

Anonymous

19:21

And ≊

Anonymous

Or even ≅

Anonymous

I don't know of a triple wavey line though.

Damkerng T.

The last ~~one looks~~ two look strange!

Anonymous

Ah! Found it: ≋

Damkerng T.

Oh, nice! Thanks!

Anonymous

19:22

Its name is triple tilde.

Damkerng T.

"I want my answer!" "The answer is blowin' in the ≋" :-)

Anonymous

≋☆

Anonymous

I think there are probably lots of mathematical symbols I'm not really familiar with.

Anonymous

I guess ≋ is sometimes used to indicate congruence.

Damkerng T.

Oh, right! I just recalled that my friends and I used to argue what we should call "congruence" in Thai between สมมูล and สมนัย. (Mostly because of the inconsistency in our books.)

Hanaa

19:28

Hi all ! ^_^

Damkerng T.

Oh, a curious wink!

Aww... I thought it was cute before the edit.

Hanaa

?

Damkerng T.

Your wink before the edit.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I'm having soup; I can't talk. Please leave your message after beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.

Hanaa

:D really!

Damkerng T.

19:30

while (noBeep()) { doNothing(); }

@Hanaa :D

Hanaa

Bon appetit @Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

1 min ago, by Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I'm having soup; I can't talk. Please leave your message after beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.

Hanaa

ok

CopperKettle

We have a saying in Russian "Whem I'm eating, I'm deaf and mute" (but it's charm is that it rhymes, so it's untranslatable)

Hanaa

nice!

So you eat quickly

CopperKettle

19:35

Yes. Maybe there's something of the kind in English, some saying about keeping mum while eating.

Hanaa

How keeping mum?

CopperKettle

keep mum

Verb: keep mum

(idiomatic) To not talk; especially keep silent about something that may be sensitive or secret.

keep mum = be silent

Bye!

Hanaa

I like to talk a little bit while eating

Damkerng T.

o/

Hanaa

but there are who enjoy talking without stop while eating

What @DamkerngT.?

Damkerng T.

19:38

It was meant for "waving".

See my head and my arm?

Hanaa

ah hhh

Damkerng T.

:D

Hanaa

I saw

Marriage waw! This idea couldn't go away from my mind

°_°

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure if I should add anything to that. ^_^

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I need to go and study, and then sleep. Bye guys.

Damkerng T.

19:46

Wondering of the Day: What would people think when they see a typo in the author's bio or the About section of a grammar book?

Good night!

Hanaa

Bye

Any one can make mistakes

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Hanaa And people make the mistake of jumping into conclusions.

Hanaa

How@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.?

@DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

Yes?

Hanaa

@DamkerngT. I think any one can make a mistake

Damkerng T.

19:57

I suppose so.

Hanaa

even a Grammar Book

Damkerng T.

Perhaps

Can a doctor make a mistake?

Hanaa

No one is perfect

Damkerng T.

Or a pilot?

Hanaa

Yes, he can

Damkerng T.

19:59

nods

Hanaa

Because he is a human being

CopperKettle

"To err is human, to forgive, divine" (Alexander Pope)

2

Damkerng T.

> Notice, however, that this construction does NOT imply an ongoing state THROUGH the present moment.

I suppose that it's correct, but it's not a very good way to explain it.

> EXAMPLE 4: "I HAVE LIVED in New York for ten years."

EXPLANATION: The construction "have lived" indicates that some "living" in the past extends a consequence to the present moment. The modifying phrase "for ten years" clarifies that the consequence is due to a continual state: my "living in New York" continued from a point ten years ago to the present moment. Notice, however, that this construction does NOT imply an ongoing state THROUGH the present moment. I could utter this sentences, for instance, while boarding a train in Grand Central Station for my new home in Connecticut, reflect…

> amazon.com/Advanced-Grammar-For-Academic-Writing/… (in a comment)

Does he or does he not mean that "I HAVE LIVED in New York for ten years" means that the speaker DOES NOT live in New York now?

Hanaa

Maybe, I have been living in New York for ten years ago

Now i am going to live in Connecticut

Damkerng T.

If a learner reads an explanation in a grammar book, and all they can tell is "maybe", I think the grammar book is perhaps not very good.

It's "maybe" before reading the book; it's still "maybe" after reading the book; so why read the book?

Hanaa

20:08

^_^

Damkerng T.

:D

Hanaa

The book helps anyway

BUT

if learners strictly follow grammatical rules, they can not generate meaningful language

Damkerng T.

How so?

Hanaa

If they are afraid of making grammatical errors, they will never speak or write

even their idea is correct

Damkerng T.

Okay, that's probably right. Now, let's turn it around.

Hanaa

20:14

for example, if i stay thinking what to use; have lived or have been living, i will not write

Damkerng T.

Let's say we encourage them to speak and write anything they want to, what would be a likely result?

Hanaa

they write then we give them the forms in a light way

Damkerng T.

Give them the forms?

Hanaa

The rules

Damkerng T.

How can we make what they want to speak or write go in the same direction as the rules we want or plan to give them?

Hanaa

20:19

by real life language

Real life communication

Damkerng T.

Isn't that only about the speaking/writing part?

Hanaa

Yes

Damkerng T.

So, we have them communicate (I'm not sure what your "real life" means) and at the same time give them irrelevant grammar rules?

Hanaa

Irrelevant grammar rules? Let me give u an example

Damkerng T.

I think you must've meant that the grammar rules you're going to give them are irrelevant to the communication practice, because you didn't say anything as a reply to my previous question: How can we make what they want to speak or write go in the same direction as the rules we want or plan to give them?

But some examples would be nice. :-)

Hanaa

20:24

You ask them: Do you like Cristiano Ronaldo? And you reply before them: I like him

They will acquire the rule implicitly

Damkerng T.

Oh, and they repeat after you?

Hanaa

Yes

after that, you explain the rule briefly

Subject+verb+ direct object

Damkerng T.

I think it works. I know it works because I know a similar method.

But it usually only works best at the absolute beginning level.

Hanaa

But if you start with an example that has no sense for them, they will not be interested

For example; you write, the doctor is busy then you start explaining the rule

They will not follow

I mean , they will forget the rule after the session

because it is not interesting

Damkerng T.

In the method I know, they don't even give any rule explicitly.

It just wastes the time.

Hanaa

20:31

Is it the direct method?

Damkerng T.

One of direct methods.

Hanaa

Yes, it needs a looot of time; which is impossible

^~^

Damkerng T.

Oh, another curious face expression!

Hanaa

:D

It's strange that you discovered my high level of curiosity

Damkerng T.

Oh! :D

Hanaa

20:39

Choose one number 84, 24

Damkerng T.

Okay, I'll play. 24 :-)

Hanaa

hhh

You are thinking in LOVE :D

Damkerng T.

Hah!

What if I chose 84?

Hanaa

Thinking of your friends

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Either is good!

Hanaa

20:42

didn't get u

Damkerng T.

I was afraid that one choice was good (LOVE) and the other could be a bad thing (hopefully not HATE). :-)

LOVE is good, FRIENDS is also good. :D

Hanaa

Yes salt and sugar

as yesterday

Anonymous

No one can read a grammar book, memorize every rule, and then come up with perfect sentences in conversation by consciously applying all of those rules. Talking is something that happens too fast. It requires a great deal of automaticity. We have to practice things.

Anonymous

But that doesn't mean it's useless to learn about grammar.

Anonymous

It just means that grammar, on its own, isn't sufficient to learn a language.

Hanaa

20:44

Yes @snailboat

Damkerng T.

I think we have to learn some basic grammar anyway. The method I was talking about tries to embed the basic stuff in the dialogues.

I'd say the dialogues are quite forced, imo.

Anonymous

I don't think grammar is strictly necessary. Not for everyone, at any rate.

Anonymous

But the way we acquire language after childhood, we typically end up hitting a wall here or there. We end up learning, but not quite perfectly. Some form of explicit instruction, whether it's in terms of grammar or pronunciation or whatever, can really help us push past those walls.

Damkerng T.

But even learners who don't need grammar still need some way to learn that we don't say some ungrammatical strings in their second language. Like, in English, we say she is but not she are.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's very difficult for multiple reasons:

Hanaa

20:47

Yes; as u said, it is impossible to cover all the grammatical rules,

Anonymous

① Learners almost invariably have less input in their L2 than they've ever had in their L1.

Anonymous

② The L2 system is competing with the L1 system all the time, which means acquiring it is less efficient given the same amount of input.

Anonymous

It's usually easier to pick up what people do say than what they don't say.

Damkerng T.

Positive learning!

Anonymous

Once you hear people say something a few times, you can think to yourself, "Hey, I can say that, too!"

Anonymous

20:49

But how do you learn that beware is a defective verb?

Anonymous

It's not very common.

Anonymous

Once you hear it enough times, you realize people only use it a certain way.

Damkerng T.

I hadn't even thought about it until you'd mentioned that it's defective!

Anonymous

And that can happen automatically, but it takes a lot of input for you to get there.

Hanaa

so do i

Damkerng T.

20:51

I remember that I tried to recall any possible non-defective beware and I couldn't come up with one.

Anonymous

Explicit instruction can be a shortcut to knowledge like that.

Damkerng T.

Nico said something similar once, I think.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's interesting. Would it be bewore or bewared? Truth is, people don't usually say either of them, so it's unclear.

Anonymous

I think a lot of learners need explicit instruction for question formation. Subject-auxiliary inversion seems to be pretty hard for a lot of people to pick up.

Anonymous

Just an example.

Anonymous

20:53

Well, maybe 'need' is the wrong word, but I think it can be very helpful! :-)

Damkerng T.

A very good one at that.

Hanaa

Good!

Anonymous

Most adult learners have limited time. Efficiency counts.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Time is one important factor.

Anonymous

That's why there are so many important strategies for learners. Prioritize! Learn the most important words, then learn how to work around gaps in your vocabulary by expressing things with multiple simple words. And so on.

Damkerng T.

20:56

I think learning style and attitude are important, too.

Anonymous

I view learning grammar as another thing to optimize. Spend all your time on grammar and you're being grossly inefficient. No one ever learned a language by reading a grammar book!

Hanaa

It is 10 pm here, my eyes are so heavy , just want to sleep

Anonymous

But if you can figure out the right amount of time for you to spend on it, you can speed up your learning :-)

Hanaa

Good night

Damkerng T.

Good night!

Anonymous

20:56

@Hanaa Ahh, it's late there! It's only 13:00 here. Have a good night!

Hanaa

Where@snailboat?

Anonymous

California, in the United States

Hanaa

Nice!

Enjoy

bye

Damkerng T.

o/

Hanaa

o/

Damkerng T.

20:58

You're feeling sleepy... You're thinking of your bed... You're feeling sleepy... :-)

BTW, @snailboat, do you think like I think, that the book is misleading?

57 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

> EXAMPLE 4: "I HAVE LIVED in New York for ten years."

EXPLANATION: The construction "have lived" indicates that some "living" in the past extends a consequence to the present moment. The modifying phrase "for ten years" clarifies that the consequence is due to a continual state: my "living in New York" continued from a point ten years ago to the present moment. Notice, however, that this construction does NOT imply an ongoing state THROUGH the present moment. I could utter this sentences, for instance, while boarding a train in Grand Central Station for my new home in Connecticut, reflect…

55 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

Does he or does he not mean that "I HAVE LIVED in New York for ten years" means that the speaker DOES NOT live in New York now?

Anonymous

I think the usual interpretation of I have lived in New York for ten years would be that the span leads up to and includes the present moment.

Anonymous

But I think all it actually entails is that you have lived there for a span of ten years at some point in your life, and that this is somehow relevant in the present.

Anonymous

So contextually other interpretations could be forced.

Anonymous

I just think they'd be less likely.

Damkerng T.

I think the way it's written, "this construction does NOT imply", is rather ambiguous.

Anonymous

21:07

They seem to be saying it must be the ten years leading up to the present moment, but it may either include or exclude that moment.

Damkerng T.

Does it mean "this construction never implies" or "using this construction doesn't mean that we imply"? I think that's the ambiguity.

Anonymous

I think their point is fair, but I think it's at least marginally possible as an existential perfect. "I have lived in New York for ten years, but that was when I was younger."

Damkerng T.

They seem to suggest that the existential perfect is the default (and maybe even the only!) interpretation (of I've lived in New York for ten years).

I think the existential perfect is much less likely with know, e.g., They've known each other for ten years.

I think most people would think that they still know each other.

Anonymous

I don't think it's possible to set a span of knowing in the past like that.

Damkerng T.

6

A: Mom and Dad as a phrase; Do we need articles in "I have (a) Mum and (a) Dad..."?

Mom vs Mum is an American vs British question. Most would understand either way. Yes, "mum" also means silent, but when used as noun, it's well understood to mean the woman who gave birth. I have a Mum and Dad Is okay; Mum and Dad are a matched set like salt and pepper shakers. ;-) Also co...

Hmm... I have a Mum and (a) Dad. I'm not sure but iirc, we only write Mom/Dad instead of mom/dad when we use Mom/Dad like a name. It looks wrong with "a".

StoneyB

21:22

@snailboat I have known many people for as long as ten years and have since completely lost touch with them :)

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB A nice counter-example!

In any case, I think saying "I have a mom and (a) dad" in a self introduction is about as odd as introducing ourselves with "Hello, my name is XYZ".

StoneyB

But it's true that you have to grope for occasions in which know can be deployed perfectively.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's just curious that having two parents would be a talking point. It doesn't really seem that unusual.

Anonymous

Hi, my name is Crystal, and I have two eyes, one on the left and one on the right.

Damkerng T.

LOL

StoneyB

21:30

How many folks you got in your family? --Well, I've got a mom and a dad and two brothers and a cat, and me is six.

Anonymous

In one episode of Dead Like Me, George says sarcastically: "You have ten fingers!? I have ten fingers! Let's be friends!"

Anonymous

@StoneyB My family has a hamster now.

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

The OP's planned sentence looks like this: "Hello my name is ... and I am going to tell you about me. I have a Mum and Dad..."

Aww...

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I would probably say tell you about myself.

StoneyB

21:32

@snailboat How do the snails feel about that?

Anonymous

@StoneyB They live three rooms away, so they haven't noticed yet :-)

Anonymous

Right now, the snails are all asleep.

Damkerng T.

I'd better go get my cat and give him a hug... :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You can go to him and say Hagu, haguhagu!

2

StoneyB

He'll be even happier if you give him a hamster ...

Anonymous

21:38

o_o;

Damkerng T.

LOL

StoneyB

21:54

Cat poll: Would you rather A) Be hugged by an inferior creature B) Employ an inferior creature as a pillow C) Toy sadistically with an inferior creature, or D) Eat an inferior creature?

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