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00:00
@l4m2 Charcoal has a custom multibyte encoding scheme for chars not in SBCS
Uhh shoot
I surely deleted the second one but it persists
and I can't delete it again because the chat says "it is already deleted"
try reloading
oh it's deleted for me now
Why Ginger posted same test and then delete
just hit 26k reputations. very cool
@l4m2 for the [Hyperlink Blocked] of course
00:04
Note to self: never send a chat message at exactly UTC midnight
ಠ_ಠ
It looks like Bubbler deleted Ginger's text XD
how do i score a scratch answer :)
via it's scratchblocks representation
*its
00:12
don't care + didn't ask + L + ratio + nerd
@lyxal I will make a house out of waffles and make you eat your way out.
5
26 secs ago, by lyxal
don't care + didn't ask + L + ratio + nerd
@emanresuA Context?
@Jacob if the syntax you enter creates a visual representation that matches the blocks in the project, it's valid to score
meaning set[b v]to(2 and set [b v] to (2) are both valid ways of scoring the same block
@Jacob see this answer of mine for an example of how blocks turn into scorable text
okay thanks
00:20
@lyxal too bad SE doesn't let us suggest edits on chat messages
01:30
Are some CISC like golfing languages?
01:41
I don't know any CISC other than x86
@l4m2 and given that all golfing languges I'm aware of are not register-based, the answer is probably no
Idk if naz counts
I'd say naz is like a RISC at best
02:24
Maintenance!
 
2 hours later…
03:58
That moment you have a sandbox proposal but the site is still read only
apparently stasoid posted the 400th lang to the polyglot right before maintenance
04:14
@user Lyxal will presumably then be the Waffle House's newfound host
I cannot imagine the state of Stasoid's computer having downloaded hundreds of different programming languages
They've gotta have like, a whole OS dual boot just for like, tools and interpreters for that one challenge :p
(ooh that would actually be the perfect place for containerization, wonder if they've got something like that set up)
05:02
fun fact, most of the answers on that question were auto-flagged by Community as "excessively long". that's usually how I see a new answer if I miss it on the front page
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

alephalphaSudoku as a SAT problem code-golf puzzle-solver open-ended-function sudoku This is a only draft. I'm not sure what this challenge should be like. Background An interesting way to solve a Sudoku puzzle is to represent it as a Boolean satisfiability problem, and then feed it to a SAT solver. A Boo...

05:35
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

lyxalKnook to Mate... With Portals! code-golf chess Inspired this challenge I am somewhat of a self-declared Chess Anarchist. That means that when I play chess, en passant is forced (else the brick gets used), double check is mate (and pasta), and all sorts of new pieces and squares are added to the g...

06:10
What are the options for saving a python dict with tuples as keys?
In the original "best tip" Best Of category (2016), there was:
> Candidates should be tips which show deep insight into the language, yet are applicable in a wide range of situations. The exact amounts of bytes saved by the tip is not relevant.
And pretty much every nomination from 2017 onwards... wasn't that.'
I'm not a huge fan of this category because it's impossible for me to judge how useful a tip is in languages I know nothing about, making it harder tell which tips are truly exceptional. — DJMcMayhem Dec 18, 2016 at 20:05
@Simd You mean saving such a dict to disk?
 
1 hour later…
07:19
Fuck utf-16
lol
so somehow the blue circle is an emoji but the white one is not
are emoji strictly just in that codepoint range
because the white circle definitely renders like one in fonts
yes by definition but some software (or font?) chose to display some selected symbols as an emoji I guess
 
2 hours later…
09:12
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

mousetailImplement a 2fuck interpreter 2fuck is a simple 2d variation on brainfuck. Like brainfuck, there is a tape that extends 30000 bytes to the right, consisting of values between 0 and 255. Arithmetic shoould wrap around. It has the following commands: < change the direction of the instruction point...

 
1 hour later…
10:31
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Kevin CruijssenBorders of a Rectangular Matrix Tags: code-golfmatrixnumber Although it's done a few times as sub-challenge as part of a larger challenge, and we also have a challenge to remove the borders of a square matrix, I couldn't find a challenge to output the border of a given matrix, so here it is. Chal...

 
1 hour later…
11:39
me: *is editing photos for sandbox challenge in powerpoint*
powerpoint: oopsie, something's gone a tad bit wrong in the background, probably because you're mucking around with so many shapes and stuff, pls save and restart because I'm feeling a bit goofy
Is this for chess?
it sure is
I'm re-doing all the images
make them a little more consistent and with a little better cropping of some things
and use a similar chess font for all other pieces to that of the knook
because I use a different theme on lichess than the knook was designed with :p
Why doesn't your knook have sunglasses?
It's a essential element of the design
because standardised tournament-grade knooks don't have them
knooks with sunglasses are for novelty sets
oooh til ctrl+click duplicates items in powerpoint without needing ctrl+c ctrl+v
that arrow? it isn't a single object
it's two block arrows, one with it's arrowhead flattened as low as possible with the other placed on top
with an additional rectangle object to cover the overlap
and a screenshot of the square background to cover an extra overhang
powerpoint design is hard
Why do you use powerpoint then instead of something like draw.io
11:52
easier to work with pictures
+ background removal of images
@lyxal Even better: Ctrl+d
but ctrl+click allows you to duplicate + move it where you want
single key press + single click at the same time rather than keypress into click
Is there golfed code that output file via screen to decode on cellphone? It needs to be short as the code would be manually typed into unconnected computer
12:08
@lyxal oh yeah replit used to love doing this
you'd be using the editor and then suddenly, like, the background of the code editor would change to the text "This Plugin Has Crashed!" on a red background and a popup would be like "hey we f*cked up why don'tcha reload"
doesn't happen anymore but used to happen all the time
lyxal art go brrr :p
@lyxal lgtm
Your art skills are on point
What if there are multiple overlapping shortcuts?
12:13
@lyxal only going to post the graph one for now
m90
m90
@lyxal Spelling error: "simplier"
@mousetail I'll make it so that there won't be
I'd suggest clarifying also if there can be multiple shortcuts in general, even if they don't overlap
done
I'd also suggest a more traditional test case format
12:20
?
oh you mean in the testcases
I thought you meant like having different input formats
you mean markdown formatting
Yes, put each test case near the result
ngl don't know why I didn't do that originally
done
@mousetail hand drawn with apple pencil :p
I think
I don't remember
0
Q: Simplify a Cycle

lyxalAlternatively: That one challenge I forgot I had in the sandbox and is about stuff from Discrete Mathematics I learned like 5-6 months ago and kinda don't remember Given a path of vertices that form a cycle on a graph, output a simple version of the cycle. That is, if a vertex appears twice, snip...

hey, that's me!
12:57
I was expecting this to be hard in ><> but it's actually super trivial
@mousetail thanks for the assist :p
I was having difficulties thinking of how to reply
It's a funny coincidence Keven replied with basically the same content as my comment within 5 seconds of me posting
man I wish "off the charts" was a best-of category, because I would have loved to have nominated that one matrix answer of mine that timed out for anything larger than a 2x2 matrix
13:26
TIL I Learned about Microsoft's .appx and .appxbundle
I want .ppk packages to be as seamless to install as those are for Windows devices :p
coulda sworn that said .apex
Apex is hell, people should golf in it more
(if I say .dpy I mean .ppk, I renamed the filetype a few days ago)
there's an esolang named apex?
13:27
Practlang unfortunatly
is it the apex of annoyance? :b
It's a scripting language used in salesforce
It combines the worst parts of SQL and C#
oh that explains it
oh hell no
sounds even more goofy than that emoji bar challenge which was actually a real thing
@mousetail finally a language that combines the ease of use of C# with the intuitive clarity of SQL
ffs replit didn't see fit to install manpages in their repls so I'm having to SSH into Radvyf's droplet in order to figure out how to use git diff
that sentence'd give anyone unfamiliar with this chat an aneurism :p
13:30
It's basically just C# except you can just write inline SQL queries. Except everything is just different enough that normal SQL or C# doesn't quite work. Also depending on very weired specific things about how you write your query it will return a very different type of object
@mousetail what the [Fifty Percent Off!]
@mousetail does it have user management stuff like permissions and privileges?
okay finally figured it out: git diff HEAD
@lyxal Yes
That's kinda what the whole of salesforce is
13:33
But like how sql has GRANT PRIVILEGE write to user or something like that specifically for databases
just trying to think of the most cursed sql things I can remember
No not that
The SQL sytax supported is very limited
Ah
So definitely not TSQL then :p
> AssertionError: You don't have any elegible Python interpreters to make a virtualenv with. How is that even possible?!
thanks past Ginger, very cool
Ooh I love blaming my past self for things
Good fun
I prefer blaming my future self
Why didn't they time travel and fix all my problems?
13:39
Paradoxes
Duh
I blame my future self for any potential paradoxes caused
That works I guess
13:51
0
Q: Print the notes of an increasing octave-repeating scale

badatgolfChallange To quote Wikipedia: An octave-repeating scale can be represented as a circular arrangement of pitch classes, ordered by increasing (or decreasing) pitch class. For instance, the increasing C major scale is C–D–E–F–G–A–B–[C], with the bracket indicating that the last note is an octave h...

14:08
I finally hit 1k! :)
No longer baby boy, now teen boy
Exactly lol
niec
14:21
Dammit I got online two minutes too late to win 128 GB of server RAM for $135 :|
less niec
ooh just got pypackage to create a venv correctly :D
now I just need to do installation...
0
A: Nominations for Language of the Month, Take 2

badatgolfC++ Description Quote from Wikipedia: C++ (pronounced "C plus plus") is a high-level general-purpose programming language created by Danish computer scientist Bjarne Stroustrup as an extension of the C programming language, or "C with Classes". The language has expanded significantly over time, ...

Not a nomination I was expecting to see
14:43
But seriously, just imagine 300 GB of RAM in the RTO server
why
What would you even do with that?
Need 2 PB of ram at least for serious computing
Cache the top 100 languages in RAM, and run every instance in a ram filesystem
But really, the second one
that feels like overkill
Why would you kill at all if you're not gonna commit to it
14:45
fair enough
I don't really like the idea of having to copy 20 MB worth of files all over the place on my nice shiny SSDs whenever someone runs a single line of code on RTO
Doing it all in RAM would reduce wear and increase speeds, a win-win
Why would you need to move stuff around on the disk? The instances are read only right
where will you get that much RAM?
@mousetail Not really
If some interpreters specifically need the code to be saved mount a mini filesystem in RAM just big enough for the code but not the interpreter itself
14:48
Still not the issue
What is the issue?
There needs to be somewhere where files can be written. I accomplish that using overlayFS, so it's very small, but because of security limitations in Firecracker, and convenience, that means having a rootfs you can write to
Couldn't you still do that in a mini filesystem that excludes any big files?
Later on I might make the whole root read-only, and just have a single tiny disk mounted to /rto/work
But still, I need to account for the max size of files that might legitimately need to be written (can't resize the mount at runtime), which means at least a few megabytes
If I had that much RAM, I could just have pre-prepared empty 128 MiB or bigger disk images that get mounted, giving programs plenty of room without needing wear on my SSD
@Ginger Well right now over a dozen kits of 128 GB of SK Hynix server RAM are being auctioned off :p
place yro'ue bets
14:54
Also I've got a new esolang in the works that y'all are gonna really love
Really
also I kiiinda feel like you're prematurely optimizing here; currently the only people who know RTO exists are either members of CGCC or IRL friends or yours
7
Rectangst?
so it's not like you have a deluge of traffic to deal with
Fun fact: My password manager still has passwords ready for 7 more bots
what
14:56
N and S are already used, but I also have A (meta), F (featured), L (loopholes), B (bounties with no deadlines), H (hello, world), and O and X (forgor 🦨)
@Ginger yeah yeah
I know it's a bad purchase, and you know it's a bad purchase, so it xors together and becomes a good one :p
I resent that :b
Plus given that you use an RPi as a daily driver your idea of too much RAM is like a gig :p
Or are they shipping with more than a mid-2010s chromebook now
corollary: you write all your dependencies yourself so clearly your idea of too many dependencies is like 3
@RydwolfPrograms the best one has 8GB
That is true :p
@Ginger Oh wow
That's as much as is on my old laptop (still on sale/free! anyone want it? $19 fortnite card!)
get disproved lol
14:59
You pay for fortnite?
it's a meme from like 3 years ago
No $19 fortnite card is a meme
Which "anyone want it" reminded me of
Plus I'm more of a PUBG guy
Is it true there is a lot of cheating in PUBG?
Probably, but I'm not good enough to tell :p
And it sure installs enough anticheat malware on your device...like four different driver-level anticheats
Anticheat malware seems generally ineffective
15:02
IIRC Valorant modifies(?) the Linux kernel to detect cheating
Gonna have to start gaming in a Firecracker VM :p
Cheaters often use multiple nested levels of VMs
I doubt lil' jimmy hacking in Fortnite is spinning up VMs to default dance on people
Maybe the devs of cheats or something, but I don't think cheaters tend to be the most mature, competent owners of computers
professionals have standards
15:22
In a tape-based language, what should moving too far left do?
Ooh, what if it went to a "guard cell" that couldn't be modified, and can't be moved past?
So you can check if you're at the end of tape by incrementing, checking if it's the same, then decrementing and moving on
16:00
How do you check if it's the same? Wouldn't you need to use another cell to the side of the guard cell?
16:22
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

JSorngardValidate Einstein Notation In physics it is common to use the so-called "Einstein Summation Convention" when writing equations with tensors. This means that if two index variables appears twice in the same expression it implies a sum over all the possible values of that index, so if i is {1, 2, 3...

16:48
Does starring more repositories boost some stat on GitHub? I just got 2 stars on a repository of mine that I recently pinned, and as much as I would like to think it's because it's cool, there's no way people saw a repo whose README is just the repository's name and thought "Oh that looks really interesting lemme star that for later"
The repo in question uses Scala, and the people who starred it don't have any Scala repos in their profile
I don't think they're bots, because they have actual repos, not just forks
IDK I get random stars and follows sometimes too
This creep will follow you if you star their repo
17:05
> I am Satin Wuker, the founder of the Rickroll programming language;
didn't know you could found languages
well I'm gonna found my own lang.
hold my beer
17:33
1. if it's zero, increment it, and check if it's nonzero
2. if it's not zero, it's automatically not the guard cell
@Ginger I found quite a lot of languages, does that count?
17:47
alright so I have taken a look at pypackage and decided to rewrite like half of it
stupid nondeterministic package solving
@RydwolfPrograms Ah, makes sense
alright so basically the biggest problem I'm having here is that package dependencies aren't constant
Python lets you specify basically infinite numbers of conditions that the environment has to meet in order for a package to be installed, and because of that pypackage either needs to 1. include thousands of lines worth of code for checking said conditions or 2. include a dependency file for every single possible combination of packages that an environment could require
and neither of these are good
18:03
okay, I did a little looking and it looks like I can solve this problem using the patented Ginger technique of using a library to do all the work for me!
specifically, the packaging library (which I was already using) has the ability to evaluate conditions and check them
18:16
just found this gem in the Poetry source: m = re.match(r"^(.+?)(?:\[(.+?)])?(?:\s+\((.+)\))?$", dep)
yes, that is very readable
I like to lurk there, much interesting stuff
same
im super proud of my one and only answer there
18:33
I like programming
Programming is fun
is that C or Rust
@RydwolfPrograms at least that's more readable than this monstrosity
then again I did just write six 5-line utility classes for pypackage :/
Programming in JS is fun in the same way that losing in Dwarf Fortress is fun
(that's a bit more apt)
oh yeah it does that lol
18:40
@Ginger JS can actually be pretty fun if you stick to the good parts
@user good point, it's hard to dislike something if you just don't use it :p
React is kinda fun
Okay true I don't touch JS very often
wooosh
@Seggan Not to brag, but I have more rep on Worldbuilding than I have here
wow
18:42
@Ginger Oh you were joking that there are no good parts
@user yes lol
@Ginger Well I only have like 300 rep here so that doesn't mean much
wait.
huh, I could've'd sworn you had like 10k
I'm confused.
18:43
¯\_(ಠ_ಠ)_/¯
I'm actually not user, I'm a bot who replaced them
@Ginger They probably bountied it all.
@mathcat oh no
it's another hivemind
OH NO
@mathcat oh looks like it
welp how didn't I notice lol
At least now I can brag that I have more reputation than user.
19:01
@RydwolfPrograms (if anyone can guess what this rat's nest does in the next two hours I'll give them a +150 bounty)
Decoding some fractional byte lang?
is it a valid programming strategy to have 10 different dataclasses representing different kinds of package files? :p
@user More specificity required but yes
(about the encoding not the lang)
Ascii-only (95 bits)?
Nope
I'm actually going to go ahead and call off the bounty since I've just realized how vague "guess what it does" is :p
19:08
lol
You each get an upvote for participation :p
yay!
lmao
Are you going to reveal it now?
@mathcat Array(95) kinda looked sus
and the line below it
ASCII is part of it
@Bubbler yes. Annoyingly you can't save a dict like that in JSON format
19:33
@RydwolfPrograms bro where's my upvote :b
You didn't guess :p
@RydwolfPrograms you said participation, I participated:
25 mins ago, by Ginger
lol
the facts are indisputable
or do I have to ping lyxal?
Well actually, you said that after the votes had been distributed, but before the formal announcement, and Rydwolf Corp. doesn't have a policy covering backpaying upvotes like that
You can talk to my manager Rydwolf if you would like
Nonsense! You'll be hearing from my lawyer about this!
@lyxal Do something! This is an affront to [Big Shots] and rep farmers the world over!
Lyxal has been temporarily redirected
19:37
I've been working on pypackage for hours and I want to slam my head into a wall
why can't anything every be SIMPLE with Python packaging?!
Ooh is that like webpack for Pythong?
er...Python
*codes sexily*
Introducing Pythong™, underwear for modern developers
vertically optimized and horizontally integrated :p
I guess you weren't around when I explained it, so lemme explain it again
@RydwolfPrograms pypackage is a tool that takes a Python project and all of its dependencies and turns it into a single file that anyone can double-click to install
it automates virtualenvs, dependency installation, all that stuff
and it's driving me insane, as I knew it would
Wow that sounds...complicated? Surprised it doesn't exist already
19:41
I think that similar tools exist, but they don't really do what I want
@RydwolfPrograms it's actually easier than it sounds, for one reason: I'm doing the most Ginger thing possible and offloading all of the work of dependency resolution to the user's build system (Poetry in my case)
(in case you can't tell this project uses a lot of concepts and ideas from waterjet)
@Ginger weird errors again?
basically pypackage reads the poetry.lock file, which happens to contain all of the project's dependencies conveniently preresolved, and uses that to download the correct files
...at least in theory
simply put, the issue is that Poetry's lockfiles are a bit too preresolved, in that they've already resolved any dependency markers located in pyproject.toml
which makes sense, but also kinda breaks the whole project
@mathcat ^^
and I really do not know how to fix this issue
Can't you use pyproject.toml?
@mathcat it doesn't have resolved dependencies in it, only the direct ones the project depends on
quit using poetry
19:50
that won't help
this is pretty much an unavoidable issue, regardless of build system
because in order to fully resolve the dependencies you have to resolve the markers as well
@user mm
20:06
huh
<offtopic>if you're feeling sad just read through your starred by me</offtopic>
And there is no way to resolve the dependencies yourself?
@mathcat One does not simply "resolve the dependencies yourself", mathcat
watch me
I know that because I've already tried with waterjet and regretted it
20:13
ah well
"I'm a bit rusty" - No you're not, you're mathcat! — The Thonnu 1 min ago
I stole @lyxal's line
ಠ_ಠ
somebody call a lawyer
20:31
Might want to change the name
CMQ Take 1,3,4,9,10. What is the smallest number that can only be made one way using +,*,-,/. 695 is an example
20:41
@user huffman coding with fracbyts and bijective bases?
does it have something to do with bijective bases?
@emanresuA ffs
20:56
Pypackage is a really boring name anyway
what'd you call it?
Is there a name for that phenomenon when tons of snakes clump up into a giant ball?
xD
fricknuts misclick
(that said Snakesphere)
but in all caps
Snakesphere: the most famous of the serpentine playwrights
20:59
How about "royal"
This snake is ballin, 10 out of 10
@RydwolfPrograms Coding in python:
@RydwolfPrograms nah
@Ginger I prefer my "posted by me" :p
well yeah because you're actually funny
21:04
my last star is from 6 months ago.
oops why did I delete that
Y'all know LOLCODE and Shakespeare
Well I've topped those easily
Get excited
*escites*
I just need to design the web interpreter, should be online by mid-tomorrow
I'm esciting.
then will you work on SE Nitro more? :p
21:07
Maybe
@RydwolfPrograms LYXALCODE confirmed
or even better SPAMCODE
...that's actually not a half-bad idea (cc @lyxal)
21:29
No one liked my CMQ :(
22:15
we need a randomized esolang in the vein of labyrinth but flavored around indonesian gambling spam

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