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00:58
@Bubbler would it be okay for me to post my CGAC challenge (Present Heap) today? things have come up
 
1 hour later…
02:13
0
Q: CGAC2022 Day 13: Santa's gift and the laser lock, Part 2

BubblerPart of Code Golf Advent Calendar 2022 event. See the linked meta post for details. You successfully route the laser into the sensor, but nothing happens. "What?" Frustrated, you flip the note from Santa. There's some more text: Calculate the number of ways to complete the laser puzzle, and ent...

I guess not d:
Oops sorry
just realized I didn't post today's and rushed it without reading the notification
 
2 hours later…
03:59
hi, long time
my first sed answer coming back codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/255440/59010 :)
o/
is it anyone else's first time learning that this is a thing in Python or am I just bad at coding
yeah, map is actually a hybrid of map and zipwith
I learnt about that while working on vxyal
@hyper-neutrino You're not bad at coding, you're just ignorant! /s
04:12
i've learned that exists at least three separate times
My first learning it too, pretty cool
constantly forget it exists
dang never knew that existed
looks kinda like zip
@UnrelatedString I'm so sorry, I didn't know you had dementia.
Thoughts and prayers
also TIL is that map(next, list of sequences) will NOT error if one of the sequences has run out and will instead just... return the empty list
04:15
The entire thing?
Why not make the output the length of the shortest list?
like I would expect it to return the next element from each sequence and then once a sequence has run out to raise a StopIteration
but it... does not
That sounds like something I'd expect JS to do, but not Python
I'm disappointed
also if you try to do tuple(next(x) for x in generators) the tuple(...) call converts the StopIteration to a RuntimeError which means you get an error instead of normal behavior ._.
???
How are you supposed to do it then?
tuple([next(x) for x in generators]) works
cuz the built-in list comprehension will error if any of its components error
but calling tuple constructor on a generator comprehension will cause it to go through the generator, and if the generator itself raises a StopIteration then it will stop, but if a component raises an error it will wrap it in a RuntimeError
04:26
@hyper-neutrino the StopIteration probably gets caught by something else internally and just completely fucks up the output
probably yeah
oh
I can sort of see how that makes sense, since map called on a generator would need to stop at StopIteration and re-raise the StopIteration so that you can call map on a generator
 
1 hour later…
05:59
In python I have two large integers x, y. How can I compute x/y rounded to the nearest integer?
i assume large enough for float precision to be problematic?
@UnrelatedString yes exactly
x//y gives the answer exactly rounded down
oh if that works then maybe you just possibly add 1 depending on the mod
Could you explain more?
trying to figure out how exactly myself :P
06:06
:)
obviously only tested in a range where round(x/y) works, but presumably it should be able to scale
@UnrelatedString that looks good. The link doesn’t seem to provide any output though
that's the point, it prints the data if riv and round don't match which is none of them in the test range
Ah yes :)
also it took me a hot minute to remember rounding towards even :P
06:51
@UnrelatedString :)
 
1 hour later…
08:07
json keys can’t be tuples. Can they be lists?
I am guessing not
looks like json keys are exclusively strings
Right, any and only Unicode strings, including the empty one.
08:42
talk.tryitonline.net just froze
Can I ping someone that isn't currently in the chat and will the person see it?
@seshoumara Only if they were in the chat recently. I think moderators can ping anyone at all.
thanks. Well, here goes: @Riley are you still active on CG&CC? :D
yeah, that ping won't actually notify
moderators can superping people which is actually even more powerful than just pinging people who aren't pingable, but we reserve that for important things
I see. My reason was to get in touch, we used to collaborate on sed answers, but I took a long break. I guess I'll check his profile from time to time for activity.
 
2 hours later…
10:34
Hiya
 
1 hour later…
12:00
@hyper-neutrino you can what
@hyper-neutrino whaaaat
@Ginger mods can append two @s instead of 1 and it pings regardless of last activity
how do you know that
it's common knowledge
it's been talked about before
search for superping in the transcripts
12:21
ffs Edge decided that zalgo text was Vietnamese
@Ginger That makes sense. Vietnamese is the only Latin-script language that extensively uses multiple accents per letter.
@Adám there exist letters with multiple accents?
Howd'ya pronounce it then?
I know how to pronounce french letters with french fries accents, but it gets confusing if there are gonna be too many on one letter
12:33
The Vietnamese alphabet (Vietnamese: chữ Quốc ngữ, lit. 'script of the National language') is the modern Latin writing script or writing system for Vietnamese. It uses the Latin script based on Romance languages originally developed by Portuguese missionary Francisco de Pina (1585 – 1625).The Vietnamese alphabet contains 29 letters, including seven letters using four diacritics: ă, â/ê/ô, ơ/ư, đ. There are an additional five diacritics used to designate tone (as in à, á, ả, ã, and ạ). The complex vowel system and the large number of letters with diacritics, which can stack twice on the same letter...
Wait a minute Vietnamese was developed by the Portuguese?
@UndoneStudios You seem confused what a acceent is, it's not like a french accent, but like a modifer. Like the é or á etc
I asked about accents, not a very obvious misspelling of it
The curse of typing way to fast for a spellchecer to catch up
besides useful info for you: I had a class where the teacher's born in 1996, and he's gen z
so you're gen z too (probably)
@mousetail I usually type real fast, my speed of typing all characters is 4 seconds
from a-z
12:40
Typing words that need to make sense is a lot harder, at least for me
Well how about this very short sentence, eh?
took me 5 seconds
It takes my spellcheecker like 15 seconds to highlight text at that point I'm like 3 conversations further
What's your WPM rate? Mine is 45
apparently the average is 36
I can reach 100
oh really
12:45
I have a friend who can reach 180
show
@UndoneStudios huh
my accuracy is terrible though
guess my past self was wrong
@mousetail then it's not counted
though I do have to say having a high WPM gives you more FGITW points
Yea, but typing is never my bottleneck when solving a challenge
@mousetail it helps me a lot in Python 3 a long time back
it's the only reason I coded an entire tictactoe game in 2.5 hours
12:55
FGITW?
fastest gun in the west
do you also suffer from dementia
@mousetail frogs give it til' Wednesday
that's clearly what caird, unrelated string and hyper are talking about when posting Jelly answers
I know but how is FGTIW going to motivate you to write ticktacktoe?
@mousetail I had a deadline
which was the next day
and I didn't disappoint
13:00
That's not FGTIW
that's just a deadline
Of course it's not FGTIW, it's FGITW
13:13
@Adám TIL
13:37
@Ginger Fun fact, superpings fully bypass the 15 minute window, and go directly into your inbox
wow
I need to become a mod so I can superping myself
If anyone wants to be superpinged, I'll be happy to do so over in the mod office or the Sandbox room :P
@mousetail Actually, I wanna try that
Looks like we can superping ourselves, that's fun :P
@RadvylfPrograms Looks like OSP died 3 weeks ago, and we didn't notice. Can you check if it's something on your end, or if I need to update it for whatever reason?
@cairdcoinheringaahing Is it any different than replying to your own chat message?
13:53
Doesn't appear to be
Except it seems that when I superping myself, I don't get an inbox message. So either that's special cased, or I'm forgetting how superpings work
14:16
@cairdcoinheringaahing Ohh...OSP was one of the last things still running on my physical server, I have it shut down right now. I'll move it over to my droplet when I get home.
@RadvylfPrograms why're you moving stuff to the droplet? stability?
@cairdcoinheringaahing clearly we need a bot that checks all the other bots to make sure they're running
@Bubbler can I post my CGAC challenge today?
14:32
I've been curious about this for quite a long time: is "coinheringaahing" a real name? it must be hard enough to pronounce,
kinda
lemme find the link
31
A: The many users of CGCC

caird coinheringaahing"caird coinheringaahing" comes from this Jelly answer. Given that the answer is written in Jelly (my primary language on the site), and the challenge is very much about the site, I thought that it'd be a fun, unique username that references the site. And it should be pronounced "cared co-in-hear-...

That's interesting
I thought it was "coin-hearing-aah-hing!"
@Ginger Yeah, I've got a pretty reliable setup but if I've got a droplet anyway, might as well host bots on that
what, exactly, is a droplet? q:
DigitalOcean's cloud servers
(obligatory DO ftw frick AWS/Azure/Linode)
14:41
@RadvylfPrograms why
AWS because AWS
Azure because bad pricing
Linode because DO's just better
DigitalOcean has great pricing, a nice UI, and I've never had any issues with them (and their online tutorials for stuff like setting up nginx made getting into that sort of thing so much easier, even when I was self-hosting and like 12 years old)
My only complaint is that the name's too hard to confuse with Docker since they both also have similar looking websites and theme colors
DO's just pleasant by default, AWS feels like crawling around in an enclosed space aboard a fuel tanker owned by a monopolistic power-hungry bald guy
Hetzner is much cheaper than any of those
Never heard of it
I use it for ATO
Ah because it's in Germany lol
14:46
I think it's about as user-friendly as DO
I've not used Linode though
I don't doubt that, but I'd rather have my server on the same side of the world as me :p
They have servers in the US
oh huh
> We also provide powerful cloud servers in the USA at partner data centers.
@SketchySketch As linked by Ginger, no, it's a composite of a bunch of words from the Jelly dictionary :P
 
2 hours later…
16:33
@cairdcoinheringaahing was telling me that it may be "easier" to solve my draft question by just creating all of the possible solutions and then filtering them after the fact... which can be really slow and does a lot of work... which leaves me wanting to lean more towards the "performant" solutions than shortest code... but I was curious what y'all think?
@Catija Basically, stuff like "no filtering" is a bad idea in challenges, because it entirely calls into question "what counts as filtering?". Can I filter the alphabet so that it only contains certain letters? Or, is it only "filtering" if I use a builtin that says it filters, such as Python's `filter` or Jelly's `Ƈ` and `f` commands?
Besides, a common reason for banning things is to try to make a challenge more interesting. Your challenge is already interesting, as the approaches you can take are incredibly varied. Jelly will likely brute-force filter it, but something like Python would b
@Catija Dammit, you beat me to it :P
HAHAHA
@cairdcoinheringaahing Ah, so it might just be Jelly that's causing the brute force solution.
ninja'd
You missed one
16:36
@Catija Yeah. Golfing languages often have builtins that work better for brute force, whereas practical languages are much more likely to use more "elegant" approaches, as "build this massive list, then filter it down" takes a lot more bytes
For example, Jelly's Œ! builtin (all permutations of a list) is 2 bytes, but Python has to do import itertools;itertools.permutations for 39 bytes
If I'm just curious about the run time but don't want to base the question on it (it'd just be informative for me to know), can I ask people to mention the run time in the answer?
@Catija If people submit languages on TIO, then you can see the runtime in the Debug box at the bottom: Example, shows it took 6 seconds to generate the permutations of the list [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9]
Ah, cool. :D
17:14
@UndoneStudios Now I feel old :P
@cairdcoinheringaahing Where's that old meme when you need it
"Takes longer than the history of the universe to run... 1 byte saved" fist-pump baby
Looks like chat history search breaks if you try to go to page 200 or later
17:29
All I'll say is that I was nominated in Best of 2021 for my answers' stupid high runtimes :P
@DLosc Nope, it's not the page number, it's the number of results
@Ginger Chrome recently decided that a page from a site I was working on was in Spanish, despite it having exactly zero Spanish on it. When I said, "Okay, fine, translate it," it left almost everything the same but changed "Name" to "Yam." 0_0
@DLosc YAM
@cairdcoinheringaahing hey, I came up with that award! :p
I should really learn Spanish names for produce items
His name? YAM
Happens fairly often that I need to figure out how to ask someone who only speaks Spanish what the name of some random produce item is
17:40
> Spanish ñames
3
In all seriousness, yeah, sounds like a good idea
It's honestly kind of fun tho :p
18:28
@Ginger what lyxal said. We can ping people even if they've never been in the room before, and even more than that, we can ping people who don't even have a chat account
if an account only exists on the main network and not chat, we can superping them and it will force-create a chat account for them and notify them
at least that's how I remember it working
wow
hail the mods :b
at least IIRC I have only ever used it in the mod room to superping other mods who hadn't visited the room in too long to talk to them, so idk if i'm misremembering the extent of its capabilities :P
And then there are the Over-Mods (OM) that are able to ultraping users that don't even have a network account!
you just hear the ping noise in your head
No, that's the angel-mods. You don't even need to have internet for them to ping you.
18:32
Oct 11, 2020 at 2:26, by Redwolf Programs
Supersuperping (@@@userid): Exits the computer and enters the user's mind (only available to Jon Skeet)
Supersupersuperping (@@@@): Teleports the user into the SE network and puts them physically in the chatroom
god can ping someone who doesn't even exist and it'll spawn them into this world
Can Jon Skeet ping God? — He doesn't need to, because God is always paying attention to Jon Skeet.
is Jon Skeet more powerful than the moderators? - The moderators are merely sockpuppets of Jon Skeet
The moderators are merely AI bots that Jon Skeet implemented in C# while taking a nap.
18:37
Jon Skeet is who sudo reports incidents to
A user that is (apparently) elected moderator, is actually replaced by Jon Skeet's chat bot, trained on the user's previous interactions.
and then the user is quietly unpersoned
---
Opinion: Users with more than, say, 2000 rep should be able to unfreeze chatrooms they own
honestly I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for ROs to be able to unfreeze their own room unconditionally
Yeah.
I think rooms freezing is dumb in the first place
18:44
I can see two reasons for rooms to automatically freeze - firstly, to hide them from the chat room list so people can see relevant rooms more easily, and secondly, to close down topical rooms that don't have much of a use case anymore to collect related topics into a more general chat room that will get enough activity for conversation to happen.
now arguably neither of these are useful even, first one because rooms being sorted by activity solves that anyway and second one is sort of just me talking random nonsense
Freezing a room should be an option, but it should be opt-in
but especially since people can prevent freezing by just spamming messages every 13 days and there are no rules against that, why not just let people also be able to unfreeze after it happens, that way people can avoid needing to spam messages and unfreeze it only when they need it
E.g., an event ends so an RO freezes the room
And since people can just as easy open new alternative rooms, why not let them re-open rooms?
exactly
18:45
@hyper-neutrino Is there any rule against having a bot keep a room warm?
true. I agree with radvylf that they just shouldn't autofreeze in the first place lol
maybe someone should make a meta post asking for freezing to be redone?
doubt it'd work tho
As if SE would touch chat code…
@Adám also no; Makyen has been doing that in several rooms for a while and it is known to CMs
SE chat hasn't been touched in like a decade and I doubt it will be for a long time
So interesting, considering how essential it is to SE's daily operations.
18:47
which'll get fixed first, A51 or chat? d:
Tough one.
SE headquarters will be rubble before either one gets touched
Both are in the "does its job and isn't completely broken" category.
Frankly, I fear the day SE touches chat. It'll almost certainly become worse. In fact, despite all its quirks, I think SE chat is the best chat room experience out there.
I think the best thing about SE chat is its overall structure
Unlike Discord, Slack, and all those apps that work basically the same, there's only one level of hierarchy: rooms
it's definitely not bad. even compared to Discord there are some features I really like about it, specifically the ability to move messages, actually timed suspensions, and a built-in starboard
18:52
I like the time-outs on msg edits, the reply system, ability to see MD source.
Using an actual <textarea> for input.
We should compile a list of bugs / minor problems with chat
@Adám SE'll remove freezing... and add banner ads to both sides /hj
@pxeger Hasn't someone?
@Adám Agh, WhatsApp Web uses a contenteditable and it drives me crazy. Dragging and dropping text and URLs doesn't work
oh quoting messages is also really nice
something I miss a lot in Discord
18:55
Agreed.
chat is the last bastion of the "good old days" of SE
which I wasn't around for, so take that with a grain of salt :b
And SE chat doesn't kidnap right-click like Discord does.
it's pretty cool that message quoting follows the poster's permissions so I can display messages from the TL but if other people copy-paste the link it won't work
in Discord there's a bot (NQN) that is mostly used for being able to use external/animated emoji without Nitro but it also lets you display messages by pasting their link
the problem is that it doesn't check permissions (IIRC)
Ah right, the lack of emoji reactions is an amazing feature of SE chat, imo.
@Ginger true, even though I wish they would fix some things with chat, at the very least it's familiar; in so many years of being on SE chat is still the exact same as when I first joined
18:57
chat is great, it just needs a bit of touching-up
@Adám I'm not sure people replying with ^ is much better
@Adám I personally don't quite agree cuz sending text carets to indicate agreement is kind of annoying and starring doesn't serve the same purpose
@pxeger That's not the same.
but I shudder to think about what SE'd do to it
but that's understandable too. also you can turn off reaction visibility in discord for the record, it just prevents you from using reaction role prompts if people are still using reactions for that (which they shouldn't because buttons and dropdowns exist)
18:58
@Adám It is, it's basically for the exact same purpose
people usually use ^ when a "up-arrow" reaction would do the exact same and not take up space especially if multiple people want to express agreement
what'd chat be like were it reinvented by SE today?
one thing I don't like about SE chat though is that there is no official bot support so you have to do weird hacks to get it to work
but probably comparatively few people care about that
@Ginger Pretty similar with better visual design and fewer features
@Ginger Upon first log-in, 75% of the screen would be covered in ads, announcements, banners, etc.
18:59
You're talking like SE "in the good old days" was totally different or something
@Adám if you were using it on mobile you'd have to scroll 3 screens to get to the actual chat
@Adám SE's very very light about how many ads they have...
4 mins ago, by Ginger
which I wasn't around for, so take that with a grain of salt :b
honestly despite all the complaints I have about chat it really doesn't feel bad to use on a day-to-day basis
moderation tools could use some work though
No, it is awesome as daily driver.
19:00
@Ginger Why are you trying to nostalgia bait people when you don't even know what you're talking about
I do wish I had the ability to block people out of chat rooms; you could argue though that if someone is causing enough problems that I want to block them from a room that they should just be suspended, which I guess is fair enough
that's just a bit more than 75%
I don't get SE ads because firefox
Same, plus extensions to handle cookie pop-ups etc.
19:03
Better that there's a cookie popup than no cookie popup. And the only thing there that's actually an ad is the one for teams. And that tiny screen size really overexaggerates it.
This is my screen. Looks much more reasonable when you aren't using a misleading window size.
@RadvylfPrograms No, don't give me cookies until necessary. Then ask.
@RadvylfPrograms Ideally, no unnecessary cookies
hi
hello
19:04
:niko:
19:23
It really saddens me that Wikipedia has to beg for money like this
Wikipedia doesn't have to beg for money. It has plenty.
doesn't seem like it
I know. It is extremely misleading.
source?
It has 8x as much content as it did mid-2000s and spends 20x as much.
@cairdcoinheringaahing So... you're saying that you make a tiny amount of short code rather than a large amount of performant code?
@Adám huh
well
that's evil
because those ads sure imply that WMF is really running low on cash, even though it's now clear they are doing no such thing
>:(
@Ginger Correct. See also this village pump.
ah. well, it seems I've been successfully deceived. I'll remember that next time I get that recurring campaign email then
19:43
even our mods are being deceived! the world is ending!
Lesson: Even internet-savvy geeks can fall for online fundraising scams. It just has to look authentic enough.
it's more potent here though because WMF runs Wikipedia, the bastion of all human knowledge which we expect to at least not blatantly lie like that
reading the essay reveals, however, that the community doesn't really like it either
and when you ignore criticism from your users like that... are any of yall getting a case of déjà vu?
A certain other collection of sites built on community-generated content?
@Adám yeah, I wonder what I could possibly mean
eh, just a case of me not doing my own research. wikipedia is something I use a lot and appreciate as a resource and the amount I donate is quite minimal to me. does go to show that you can't just trust something because it's established though lol
Yes Ginger we get the joke
ARE YOU SURE :p
... I will take whatever context I wish.
20:09
ugh, I wish websites wouldn't abuse history.replaceState
Define abuse.
clicking on a link doesn't create a new history entry
in my case, I was looking at the iplayer guide, I searched for a programme (search results appear inline in the page without changing the url, not a problem) then clicking on a search result "replaces" the page with the result page
so I can't go back to the search results
or whatever else was on the page before I started searching
Music or video streaming services use replaceState for a good reason though (if that's what iplayer is)
It's so that content playing on the site in the background doesn't get interrupted when you navigate around
Ah. I see. Yes. Whereas aplcart.info changing the current address when you click the # to get a hyperlink would be ok?
Hm, now I wonder if I could get it to update the search field when pressing Back.
it's buggy, because it looks like you've got a new history entry, but that's just for the #, so it's actually worse
but it's clearly not taking you to a "new" page, so it's acceptable
20:22
Anything I could do to improve the experience there?
For the record, I also dislike when sites mess with standard behaviour, like scrolling, the context menu. input boxes (as in fake ones instead of styled input/textarea elements), etc. And yes, navigation.
IMO context menus shouldn't exist
They don't do anything useful
so how am I supposed to copy a link then
First three are existing buttons. Next three are very rare and I have those as options in the top right dotdotdot menu. The QR code one is pretty pointless. The translation stuff can and does go elsewhere. The dev stuff can be accessed from the dotdotdot menu or shortcuts.
The whole idea of a menu that pops up when you hit a button on your mouse with addtiional actions is awful from a UX/discoverability perspective
20:27
When something is selected:
1 min ago, by Ginger
so how am I supposed to copy a link then
or even better an image
Those are two things that I will concede are currently good uses for the context menu
I use Search, Inspect, and Take screen shot a fair bit.
But I don't use the mouse for it; I have CapsLock mapped to context-menu.
CapsLock,S to search for the current selection is something I use a lot.
i think context menus are good for people who aren't so tech-savvy by which I mean very unfamiliar/uncomfortable with computer usage
0
Q: Turn Two Dice Into One

NoahA neat trick is if you ever need a nine-sided die, it is possible to make one using two six-sided dice using the numbers below. This is assuming you either have a way to rewrite the faces on the dice, or use some algorithm to map the numbers on a normal die onto these new numbers. 0 0 3 3 6 6 ...

20:37
only needing to remember "right click and then look for the thing you want in plaintext" is a lot more approachable than remembering where things are, because it may seem obvious that the navigation buttons are in the top-left of your browser but it can be overwhelming to someone who isn't as fluent with tech to try to find/remember everything
Yeah, maybe, but when you don't know where something is, adding one more place it could be is also an issue
And it gives poorly designed software/websites yet another way to make their UI more confusing
that's also true, but on the other hand everything being in the right click menu even if it's also somewhere else means that even if different interfaces put stuff in different positions, you can always rely on the right click menu to appear where your mouse is and be very prominent
i guess you could make arguments for either and the main issue is still just poorly made UI, context menu or otherwise :P
^^
Yeah, context menus existing when all of their options are already available elsewhere is fine I guess
What are y'all's opinions on SE chat's room info and stuff being on the right?
In most apps it's on the left, but I kinda like the actual chat being on the left, where you see it first, and the room list/info being on the right
I also like it being on the right. That's where side notes go.
I have my Windows taskbar on the left, so it means info panels right and left, with content in the middle.
20:50
@RadvylfPrograms I'm used to it being there, which automatically makes it the best place to put it ;)
Well put.
 
3 hours later…
23:47
@Ginger Do you mean you can't post on 24th or just that you can post it now?

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