The Nineteenth Byte

thejonymyster

00:08

@NoHaxJustRadvylf cmon at least limit it to the right letters

st?e[fg]{2}an

lyxal

00:36

@NoHaxJustRadvylf you get used to it eventually

New Posts

0

Q: Have you heard of tralindromes?

I haven't. :P So I decided to define one: A tralindrome is a string which contains three sections X, Y, Z such that all characters in the string are included in at least one of the three sections, X and Y, and Y and Z overlap by at most one character, and X is equal to the reverse of Y, and Y is...

lyxal

@NoHaxJustRadvylf the way I tell them apart is that one is the JVM/optimised language fork guy and the other is the put you to shame by fixing more bugs than you guy :p

And I respect both of them for that

thejonymyster

well which is which

Aiden Chow

^ lolol

had the same thought

thejonymyster

cgse user flash cards when

5

Steffan

00:50

seggan is the jvm guy

Bubbler

clearly witch is witch and wich is sandwich :P

4

Steffan

lol

lyxal

@Steffan meaning your the guy who we all wish to be :p

OldSandboxPosts

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Verify the diamond property

thejonymyster

01:12

LDQ: is it bad if i special case a bunch of things that i see as useless operations

or did i fail by allowing it in the first place

e.g. concatenating string literals

Aiden Chow

wats ldq

thejonymyster

lang design question

sorry i didnt LDQ:

Aiden Chow

oh lol

thejonymyster

not too late to fix B)

Aiden Chow

👍

thejonymyster

01:15

but yea im like, working on a lang and i just realized i have a concatenation operator but im testing it on string literals li8ke... why am i allowing this

is it too stupid to try and make it golfy by special casing it :P

lyxal

Well what do you mean by special casing?

thejonymyster

oh like

if u use the concat operator on only string literals, do something otehr than concatenating them

like overload it based on the inputs

since its useless to concatenate string literals since you can just... write them as one string, non?

lyxal

Not necessarily

What if you're constructing a string dynamically?

thejonymyster

like, say, with variables?

lyxal

What if you're taking a string from STDIN?

thejonymyster

01:26

i do not consider those to be string literals then

seeing as you would not include the string literal in your code, youd have the input call or what have you

"hello"+"world" is concatenating string literals, "hello" + prompt("") is not

lyxal

Well then if you could just write the strings as one in regards to string literals, why can't you just write whatever transformation you'd have as a single string

thejonymyster

thats my point

lyxal

And then are you also going to change thing like addition with two numeric literals?

thejonymyster

right, it can get kind of extreme

so the question is: as a language designer, is it overreaching to bar the user from doing "useless" things by overloading some other operation onto it?

lyxal

I think it's fine to have a little "redundancy"

Bubbler

01:30

It is possible to some extent but it's gonna get out of hand pretty quickly

emanresu A

^

lyxal

Because where do you start drawing the line between things you could otherwise write and construction by smaller components

Bubbler

and certain amount of redundancy is unavoidable; deciding whether two programs do the same thing is an undecidable problem

lyxal

3×4 is better written as 12, but 10^8 is definitely shorter than 10000000

emanresu A

LDQ: automatic string compression?

lyxal

01:34

Well when would it compress?

emanresu A

Pretty much, the language decides how to optimally express strings

thejonymyster

@Bubbler right but like at the "this operator taking these kinds of inputs" level its a bit more ambiguous

or, not ambiguous

NoHaxJustRadvylf

@thejonymyster There may still be undiscovered flavors of S.?e.{2}an though, like Spemman or Sellan

thejonymyster

you are opening my eye's mind

lyxal

@emanresuA so it could decide to have "beans" decompressed and "ostriches" as normal string?

@thejonymyster when your optimising certain programs into other operators, it can get confusing. But if it's static, uniform type overloading it's fine

Bubbler

01:37

@emanresuA Having such a thing as a feature of your interpreter would definitely be handy

somewhat like hexagony -whatever printing the hexagonal grid of dots instead of running a program

thejonymyster

nice

lyxal

@Bubbler EmanresuA means that the interpreter decides whether a string literal is treated as a compressed string or a normal string

thejonymyster

@Bubbler oh snap i forgot abt that

lyxal

A utility feature is always a good idea

But this isn't a utility feature

thejonymyster

definitely gonna have a utility to show the tokenization of my lang lol

lyxal

01:39

It's a "compiler" feature

Bubbler

That... sounds weird? unless you somehow include a kind of flag in the literal itself

lyxal

@emanresuA you'd have to make the algorithm for when it treats strings as compressed really clear to the user

And you'd have to make it so that it doesn't hinder challenges where you need overly specific string literals

thejonymyster

maybe if it had a different delimiter from normal strings :P

Bubbler

e.g. if it starts with printable ascii it is normal string; otherwise it is a compressed string

@lyxal basically this

lyxal

@thejonymyster that kinda defeats the purpose :p

The idea is that you'd only need one string literal syntax for both normal and compressed strings

thejonymyster

01:42

that was the joke ya xd

NoHaxJustRadvylf

Do your eyes taste good

6

thejonymyster

youre reading my emote backward

im a cyclops pirate and i just ate somethign sour

no but uh, yea i guess meddling with the users intentions in general is kind of iffy huh lol

lyxal

@NoHaxJustRadvylf wanna come find out?

NoHaxJustRadvylf

(Pls nobody take any of this out of context)

@lyxal I present to you today's cursed emoticon: :pXD

thejonymyster

i wanna star it but that would make people take it out of context

DLosc

01:51

@DLosc I threw together a prototype.

ATO:
https://ato.pxeger.com/run?1=pVbNattAEL6rLzG4FFaJ7NR2GoLAp4ZCoCkh9CZMWFsra7G8EtIqtih9kl5yad6pfZrunzaSErvCudjanfm--WY0q51fT1nF45Q9Pv4ueTS8_PvuS0gi2FIe3-Oc8gqpXw8i5vqO-B2pNcxA_TuQE17mTBgcJyrZktOUFcL6w4HBbVIWA7_JNfEgwZtFiGHn10-VDzs4hcr1BOSGsp6YCoawU5jvdEP6xjkxca6v6EMvCGUcVXB2JmJpgWnYU94HI-823fYVV6u7w2xFeoESWnCUS3e08wRai7w-muB0bCi-ErbicZti3KIgDJma3GKa9woWyBBzhfks2qQnZm6745qFZNevmIGJc0ceSF6QQ4moCmi3UKakmwqv-xWwCvydDnWVp1lPyM7XkBvMl3HP7pjNTBVk6Xg_kK5aeCB76fLTcTZpSCMqSmCObpTQbB8q6hM6QpVri1mQJOrH1tIWCQLLsYwxZfuyjjxYHeJZKRrFk8dpuj6WR-hpUCVvoVI8NrsozTtM0xaTB_H_yeJnaQtxpLuddZhx73usuauae4N7tsbLYya…

emanresu A

02:35

@DLosc Is there an operator to call a function?

Or do you have to do Id chain?

NoHaxJustRadvylf

@DLosc Seems slightly similar to one of pxeger's ideas they posted here

DLosc

@emanresuA To call a function how? Normally, you call a function by "pushing" a value ("pushing" in quotes because the value never goes onto the stack). Id chain leaves the function on top-of-stack essentially unchanged.

emanresu A

I realised that :P

DLosc

Aha

thejonymyster

pull

wait the word is pop nvm

lyxal

03:03

if you want to learn about mathematical proofs and discrete mathematics, now's your chance

because right now it is lyxture time

Steffan

03:24

Wait what can 10k users answer duplicate questions

Aiden Chow

@Steffan bro idek

just saw neil's answer on that runs of ones q

Steffan

03:41

yeah that's what prompted it

emanresu A

@Steffan Lag

Steffan

for several hours it's been disabled to answer for me

so idk

emanresu A

Lag

You can answer a question for a while after it's been closed if you don't reload

Steffan

That means I could just ping the api and do it

Or is it websocket

pxeger

07:12

@NoHaxJustRadvylf yep, it's basically (a more sensible way of describing) tictac

I gave up on tictac because it was too confusing for basically no golfing benefit

Bubbler

07:34

It's a bit too bad to see people giving up lang ideas because "it has no golfing benefit"

pxeger

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for deliberately confusing languages

but I just felt there was nothing new about tictac that made it at all interesting, other than being backwards

Aiden Chow

08:35

lol i just came across the newest answer for add a hidden lang to polyglot like just a few minutes ago and somehow clicked the correct lang within hundreds of languages on tio on my 3rd try

... and theres like no documentation for the lang

nvm, wayback machine to save the day, pulling up some website from like 2004

emanresu A

09:56

\o/ My interpreter now works!

(ish)

It can add two numbers and print "Hello, World!"!

lyxal

10:06

in CGCC Mod Office, 17 mins ago, by SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at beginning of answer, potentially bad ns for domain in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (37): Have you heard of tralindromes?‭ by user113869‭ on codegolf.SE (@hyper-neutrino @lyxal)

Get a free spam flag in while you can

emanresu A

@lyxal How is that only 37?

lyxal

/shrug

emanresu A

in Off-Topic TNB, 40 mins ago, by emanresu A

New Posts

10:37

0

Q: Swap every two elements in the list every possible way

Inspired by this question. Challenge Let L be a list of n distinct elements. Let P be the set of all pairs of positions in P. Let R be a result of applying a pair-swap operation on L by every pair in P in any order. Example: L = [1, 7, 8] P = {(1, 2), (0, 1), (0, 2)} L = [1, 7, 8] -> [1, 8, 7] ->...

code-golf permutations

emanresu A

The top answer to this is amazing

PyGamer0

ldw in 10 minutes

PyGamer0

11:04

oh damn i guess i can change my name to zbit0

@lyxal how is ^ idea lol

emanresu A

I think I've implemented my WIP golflang quite elegantly

I've made it so functions take and modify a stack, and have a set input and output arity; and modifiers take those functions and return different ones.

The whole program becomes one big function which I can just execute on a stack

pxeger

11:51

@PyGamer0 no, now it's 10 minutes

(9 actually)

it's 12PM UTC

Nobody Needs Names

12:07

Welcome to the fourth Language Design Workshop! The general premise is that you can post work you've done or are doing on esolangs and people will give feedback. In short, you'll get to show off our languages and their features, chat about them, get feedback, try out WIP languages, and, hopefully get ideas over the next 24 hours.

6

anyone?

Anyone?

thejonymyster

(someone)

(still typing)

Nobody Needs Names

oh ok

thejonymyster

sometimes i wish we had a "user is typing" thing but at the same time it is so peaceful not having it

Nobody Needs Names

12:25

yah

indeed, so you know you are not alone

thejonymyster

LDQ: I'm trying to write code to tokenize expressions for a lang im making, is this method salvageable or is it too Bad:
0. take code as a string, naturally
1. split on highest level parentheses ( "Foo(Bar)Baz" => "Foo", ["Bar"], "Baz" or whatever)
2. tokenize the parenthesized groups (this is a recur point)
3. if there are no parentheses (left) in the string, split on operators in (reverse) priority order and save the operator name ( "A+B=C" => [equals "A+B" "C"] => [equals [add "A" "B"] "C"] (also recursive)

problem im having: what to do with parentheses next to non parenthesized groups

Nobody Needs Names

implicit something?

for instance mult?

thejonymyster

i guess mainly im having an implementation issue more than anything

New Posts

0

Q: Find the closest swap

Take as input two strings \$A\$ and \$B\$. Output a string \$C\$ that is \$A\$ but with two characters swapped such that the Levenshtein distance \$d(C,B)\$ is as small as possible. You must swap two characters and you cannot swap a character with itself, although you may swap two identical cha...

code-golf edit-distance

thejonymyster

wait im dumb i forgot i was gonna rewrite it i already wrote plans XD

instead of splitting parens first, it splits on operators not in parentheses first

to properly do the "split in reverse priority order" thing :P

right that was my problem, i forgot since i wrote it so late last night

Nobody Needs Names

12:32

um

thejonymyster

implicit something seems like a good idea though

since there would still be like, "A+B(C)" which would split into [add "A" "B(C)"] and then what to do with "B(C)" would be ambiguous

since no operator

Nobody Needs Names

either, you can make B a function

or make it something implicit

for instance

thejonymyster

~~functions sound scary to implement~~

Nobody Needs Names

you can say 3() is a function that either *3 or repeat a 3 lots of times

@thejonymyster which lang

thejonymyster

no i mean like, implementing functions and stuff lol

pxeger

12:39

Am I ok to go and mass-add edit-distance to a bunch of relevant questions?

or should I do it gradually?

I can't remember if it's true that tag edits don't bump posts

Nobody Needs Names

@thejonymyster in which lang

python?

i mean

PyGamer0

@pxeger oh yeahhhh

thejonymyster

@NobodyNeedsNames js but not because of js im just bad :P

@pxeger do one and see if it happens

pxeger

I've just done two, and it appears not to have

but one of the ones I did do seemed to

Hmm, no, it seems like they are getting bumped

Nobody Needs Names

@thejonymyster well, python has a good lambda thing

and funcs are first class obj's

so good

thejonymyster

12:42

true itd probably be easier in python

im not ready to write a functional lang yet though :P

Nobody Needs Names

oohhh

what is it then?

thejonymyster

not functional :P

i dont know the overarching language structure yet im mostly practicing, i wrote up a really badly designed language with a similar parsing structure lol

Nobody Needs Names

i mean, which type and kind of lan uum oh

thejonymyster

but now im making it better

its just that previously ive only really wrote languages that are like... imperative "every char is an instruction" type langs lol

want to broaden my horisons

Nobody Needs Names

I think golflangs are all everycharoneinstrtype langs

thejonymyster

12:54

hm, to an extent

i guess i meant more like langs where each command is "do this to the state" and nothing relating to adjacent characters, maybe a set of brackets that do looping

Nobody Needs Names

or twochars and rarely threechar

thejonymyster

think bf

so then new question: (incoming)

i want to regex search for a pattern so long as it doesnt occur within parentheses, how would i go about this? or what should i google :P

pxeger

regex can't do that

most flavours, at least

thejonymyster

right

so how can i prepare before the regex search occurs?

only idea im having so far is "find the spans of chars that are in parenthesis, save those ranges, find all matches for the regex, reject them if they occur within those spans"

but that doesnt bode well for the fact that i want to split on the matches

programming is so tragic guys

Fatalize

13:15

Just lost 5 mins of my life before finding out that Gitlab’s master branch is now called main by default

PyGamer0

13:41

in flax, 2 days ago, by PyGamer0

feebdcakc?

m90

14:35

@thejonymyster If the parentheses aren't nested: to find xyz outside parentheses, use ^([^(]|$[^)]*$)*xyz.

thejonymyster

15:27

@m90 sadly they are nested but that is pretty neat, thanks

DLosc

16:13

@PyGamer0 Looks like feedcake?

PyGamer0

yes

DLosc

First thought: Do you need stdin? It's nice to be general-purpose, but if you're designing a golflang for CGCC use in 2022, we're usually pretty flexible about where you get your arguments.

Also, I dunno why you need a builtin for Catan numbers ;)

How much argtype overloading are you planning to have? For example, does F do something other than flatten if you pass it a number instead of a list?

PyGamer0

16:29

@DLosc flatten on a number, just wraps it in a list

i guess i will have argtype overloading like caird's fork

@DLosc i guess i don't need stdin

@DLosc because jelly has them :P

DLosc

@PyGamer0 I think you'll find that Jelly has Catalan numbers ;)

PyGamer0

oh lol

missed an al

updation done

why does updation not sound like an actual word

DLosc

I was going to say "because it's not," but then I looked it up and found out otherwise.

For whatever it's worth, I would say "update" in this context.

Aiden Chow

Catan numbers lmao

DLosc

You can find anything on OEIS

@PyGamer0 I see upper case and swap case but no lower case

You might also consider title case and/or initial caps

What do fold fixedpoint and scan fixedpoint do?

PyGamer0

16:51

@DLosc apply link repeated until a prior value is repeated

scan fp is just ^ but it collects intermediate results

@DLosc ok will add

@DLosc whatdoyoumean

pxeger

17:20

→ 14 munchins moved to The Nineteenth Cattery

thejonymyster

14?

pxeger

the word "munchkin" appears 14 times on that question page

DLosc

17:39

@PyGamer0 ATO

@pxeger I know it's spam, but I kinda want to say "flag for migration to Pets.SE" :P

@PyGamer0 Ah, makes sense.

Seggan

LDQ: should i have a "keep alphabetic" or "is alphabetic" in Fig? either way I can do the other with 3 chars

NoHaxJustRadvylf

Is alpha is more useful IMO

DLosc

@Seggan I'm tempted to r/inclusiveor this, but I won't be a wiseacre. Do you mean you're going to have one of them and you're deciding which one?

Seggan

yes

DLosc

Yeah, my first inclination is to agree with Radvylf

though maybe that's just the Python brainwashing talking

NoHaxJustRadvylf

17:49

Is alpha is more versatile. While you can get it from keep alpha in 3 characters, and vice versa, you can also derive other useful operations from is alpha which you can't as easily from keep alpha

E.g., a keep-non-alpha operation would be way longer with is alpha than keep alpha

Seggan

you mean the other way around?

NoHaxJustRadvylf

18:07

Oops yeah

Steffan

LDQ: Is grade down actually useful?

I'm thinking grade up is enough

I've never seen grade down used...

NoHaxJustRadvylf

What's grade down again?

Steffan

Reverse grade up

Indices sorted by their value in descending order

NoHaxJustRadvylf

@Steffan Seems like you only need one, and you can just reverse if you need the other

Steffan

Exactly

I need to update my Chocolate docs. I keep procrastinating and they get out of date

Not like anybody uses them

LDQ: Useful overloads for subtract, multiply, divide, exponent? They should be actually useful to vectorize, optimally

NoHaxJustRadvylf

18:15

I'd vectorize the basic arithmetic operations yeah

Exponent can probably be overloaded though

Steffan

No I mean useful overloads that are useful for vectorize. All five operations vectorize.

Aka str-num, num-str, and str-str

NoHaxJustRadvylf

Oh, string overloads

Steffan

yes

Multiply str-num will probably be repeat, but idk about str-str.

NoHaxJustRadvylf

There really aren't any string dyads that aren't also useful on arrays

Ash just casted the strings to numbers for the basic arithmetic operators

Seggan

18:45

@Steffan me

user

19:05

Okay but you and Steffan are practically the same person anyway :P

Seggan

oh, that reminds me: I need to finish that challenge inspired by Steggan

also @Steffan i noticed your code for Chocolate is suspiciously similar to Fig's

thejonymyster

@Steffan divide str str => split ("divide" string by string) ? :P

idk if thatd be useful but hey

i guess youre also free to not have it be related to the symbol :P2

@Steffan multiply str str => repeat string1 (length of string2) times

same for "repeat number length of string times"

so the order matters whether you want to multiply a string by a number or a number by a string? lo

user

@Seggan Imitation is the highest form of flattery

I actually find it somewhat similar to VyxalS but maybe we're both imagining things

Oh btw Steffan you can ping me if you want (mostly useless but maybe occasionally helpful) advice on Chocolate

Seggan

I see an object Interpreter, interpret(AST), Oper (my Operator), the parser being a class

tho I have a lexer and he directly parses the chars

@thejonymyster i prefer not having the order matter, especially in a functional language where implicit input is at a premium

o also chocPrint is very similar to my figPrint

DLosc

19:28

@Steffan I was just thinking about arithmetic operators and strings this morning. What I came up with doesn't sound like it would fit your language, though, since it kind of assumes strings are 1D arrays of characters.

Steffan

@thejonymyster I know, but would that make sense to vect?

@thejonymyster Yes I'm going to do that

@DLosc That's not true, strings are strings

DLosc

@Steffan String-split vectorizes in Pip, and it's very useful.

Steffan

@Seggan Nope, it's similar to Vyxal 3

Ok, I thought string split wouldn't be useful vectorizing

I didn't copy any from Fig lol

Seggan

i didnt even look at vyx3 so I can claim i came up with it independently ;)

DLosc

@Steffan I meant they would have to be character arrays for my idea to make sense. Which is why my idea probably wouldn't make sense in your language.

@Steffan One use case is if you have a multiline string, you can split on newlines and then split the result on spaces to get a list of lists of words. Without vectorizing split, you'd have to map splitting on spaces.

Steffan

19:33

oh ok

Split on newlines and spaces will be one byte tho

And vect

@Seggan the thing is I don't know scala very well so I had to look at vyx3

Seggan

whyd ya use scala anyway?

Steffan

why not?

DLosc

> I don't know scala very well

Steffan

anyway my chocolate docs are up to date now. online interpreter if someone wants to try it

Seggan

@Steffan just wondering

scala is a bit too symbol-y for me

Steffan

19:36

I just like the language

Seggan

and too many implicits

not judging you /shrug

Steffan

I like implicits

Also, given isntances are really useful

Passing around context implicitly

Another thing: For modifiers, I can't think of modifiers that would take a monad. Everything just takes a dyad, but they need to do something given a monad too

Seggan

compose with self?

in Fig, the lazy operator (my term for modifier) e takes an any arity operator chain and vectorises it over the last argument

emanresu A

LDQ: Is my lang interpreted or compiled? It works by creating an AST then transforming that into a JS function recursively e.g. + gets transformed into stack => stack.push(stack.pop(),stack.pop()), so the whole program becomes a giant function.

Steffan

@Seggan I have Each which does that for nilads, monads, dyads, or triads

And filter will preserve arity

Seggan

19:49

mhm

Steffan

There's swap for dyads

And dyad to monad by repeating argument

But I can't think of any monad modifier

Seggan

@emanresuA interpreted

@Steffan do you have a spread/unpack modifier?

Steffan

Interpreted

No, reduce works for dyads

And it will work for triads as well, probably

Normally you use reduce in golflangs

Seggan

not reduce

something like python's f(*arg)

or Fig's u

Steffan

That is reduce

Chocolate actually doesn't have functions

It's more like Jelly

Currently, tetrads don't exist, only up to triads.

@user yes lol I copied from VyxalS

or kind of copied

btw chocolate beat fig on fibonacci as well due to not having functions

DLosc

19:56

@emanresuA I'd call that "transpiled." (It's immediately interpreted, I assume, but it doesn't have to be--you could output the JS source to a file if you wanted to.)

Steffan

I don't think you could output the JS source to a file.

A function is not a string

Idk tho

Seggan

@DLosc no. its a function

unless you got a magical function -> string converter

DLosc

JS is good at stringifying stuff.

Steffan

func.toString() in JS will output the source.

Seggan

wait waaat

still interpreted

Steffan

19:59

I don't know though, I wouldn't call it trnaspiled unless it's literally building the string and then evaling it

Seggan

^

Steffan

DLosc

@Steffan Tomato tomahto, IMO

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