The Nineteenth Byte

Redwolf Programs

19:01

And all I was trying to show is how you can use getters to make x == 1 && x == 2, so whether I used window or global or globalThis or with is totally irrelevant and this just comes off as y'all trying to act smarter than everyone else

emanresu A

JS is kinda cursed in that way, yeah

pxeger

Adám

Just under 20 thousand years. Peanuts.

You've got to admire the precision of that estimate, though.

I mean, just (unpredictable) leap seconds will throw that way off.

emanresu A

15 hours ago, by emanresu A

> delete your computer because it uses macOS and macOS is bad

pxeger

it's just 37 minutes now, but don't you think Apple should detect when it's about to show an unreasonable estimate and replace it with whatever the previous estimate was?

emanresu A

19:11

15 hours ago, by emanresu A

Source

pxeger

@emanresuA lemme just expand this screenshot slightly for you, one sec

emanresu A

Why would you run a macos emulator if you don't like macos?

Also, how much disk space does that thing take up?

pxeger

So I can decide exactly how much I don't like it, of course!

Adám

Isn't that illegal?

pxeger

@emanresuA 6.8GiB so far

@Adám I am secretly the Queen of England; neither criminal nor contract law applies to me

Adám

19:14

Oh, OK.

caird coinheringaahing

Can confirm, pxeger knighted me when we met :P

pxeger

I think it's only a breach of Apple's EULA, not the actual law

If Apple decided to sue me, they would create a PR shitstorm for no gain

I have no intention of ever buying a mac, so they're not losing any money

user

@UnrelatedString It lets you pretend objects have fields when they're really nullary methods

pxeger

user

@user For example, you could do class Foo { private var actualField = 3; def field = actualField }

pxeger

19:17

doesn't quite work

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger Unfortunately, too many companies report "losses" as this

user

No way the IRS (or whatever thing their country has) is going to let that go though

Adám

@pxeger "I had no intention of ever buying that movie, so MPA has no claim against my torrent download!" Yeah, let's see how that holds up…

pxeger

I don't give a fuck about the law, I'm talking morally

Adám

@hyper-neutrino Thank you for being my trusty SCAPDFATIAT.

emanresu A

19:20

what

pxeger

Someone Copies And Pastes Data From A Thing Into Another Thing

SCAPDFATIAT

emanresu A

I hadn't seen that xkcd :P

Redwolf Programs

It's today's I guess

pxeger

that's understandable, since it's only yesterday's

Unrelated String

@user ah, and there's a distinction between functions taking no parameters and functions taking an empty parameter list (though i do find it funny that there's a further distinction between functions taking an empty parameter list and functions taking a single parameter of unit type)

that's pretty nice actually

pxeger

19:30

@UnrelatedString that means f vs f() vs f (), right?

Wheat Wizard

@pxeger 1. Pirate a game 100,000 times. The video game company instantly looses 6 million dollars. 2. Offer to buy the company and take on their debt for free. 3. Delete all the copies of the game from your harddrive. You are now a millionaire.

pxeger

lol I've seen that one too

Unrelated String

@pxeger f vs f() vs f(())

pxeger

oh, ruby would let you do f () for the last one

(() == nil)

Wheat Wizard

In haskell 2 and 3 are the same but 1 is different.

I wonder how many different ways languages make distinctions.

pxeger

19:32

I don't think there'll be that many that distinguish 2 and 3

Whitespace-sensitive function calls are not that common

emanresu A

3 is a syntax error in JS

Unrelated String

amazing

pxeger

really? I thought JS was supposed to be whitespace-insensitive

Wheat Wizard

I think 3 here is f(()).

wizzwizz4

@pxeger Iirc, you can use new lines instead of semicolons in JS.

pxeger

19:33

@wizzwizz4 well, yeah, with that one exception

Wheat Wizard

At least I was considering the 3 options to be 1 f, 2 f(), 3 f(()).

pxeger

@emanresuA no it isn't?

> f = () => 0
[Function: f]
> f ()
0

Redwolf Programs

f(()) was 3, right?

Unrelated String

let's say it's 1 2 3 4 f f() f () f(()), ordered so as to not suggest that 4 would be f((())) which i really hope isn't distinct in existing languages

pxeger

@UnrelatedString in non-C-family languages where ( isn't for grouping, the last might be different

Unrelated String

19:37

it would definitely be distinct in a lisp but the function call syntax is different there anyhow

emanresu A

5 mins ago, by Unrelated String

@pxeger f vs f() vs f(())

Oops

pxeger

oh

just a miscommunication of numbering

Wheat Wizard

Wait so lisp distinguishes all 4?

wizzwizz4

Only because it has a different syntax.

user

@UnrelatedString Yeah a big part of that is so you can differentiate between nullary methods that are pure, like fields (stack.peek) and nilary methods that do an action (stack.pop())

pxeger

19:38

So is f() treated as just one symbol?

Wheat Wizard

Well yeah all languages have different syntax.

4

wizzwizz4

I think it depends.

Unrelated String

no i meant the f((()))

user

@pxeger You'd need parentheses around it

pxeger

@user are they really called "nullary" and "nilary", or did you actually mean to write the same thing?

user

19:39

They are lol

Or maybe it's the other way around, I can never remember

Wait yeah it is the other way around

pxeger

that's stupid

Unrelated String

i was about to say you probably got it right because nilary could be read to suggest taking an argument of nil

wizzwizz4

@pxeger I checked, and apparently it's two.

Unrelated String

@WheatWizard i think all of the lisps i'm familiar with tokenize such that f() and f () are the same

pxeger

@UnrelatedString yeah that's what I expected

user

19:42

@UnrelatedString Yeah the I always remember it is that if you asked for the argument list to foo.bar, it would be null -> nullary, but you have to account for Odersky occasionally doing stupid things, making it nilary and the other one f() nullary

wizzwizz4

f() is f (), and f(()) isn't permitted because you can't call ().

user

f '() would probably work though

Unrelated String

or at least in a context where it tries to eval (())

pxeger

@wizzwizz4 well that's still a different behaviour...

Unrelated String

yeah

pxeger

19:43

Couldn't you have '(f(()))

wizzwizz4

Only three, though.

Ginger Industries

sup

wizzwizz4

8 mins ago, by Unrelated String

let's say it's 1 2 3 4 f f() f () f(()), ordered so as to not suggest that 4 would be f((())) which i really hope isn't distinct in existing languages

user

@wizzwizz4 Wait would it work if f is a macro?

Unrelated String

exactly yeah

wizzwizz4

19:44

@user I think macros still need to be in an S expression.

Unrelated String

^

Ginger Industries

???

Wheat Wizard

Ok so JS is 1: function, 2: function called with no params, 3: ditto, 4: syntax error? Am I getting that right?

Unrelated String

macros aren't macros if you don't try to eval them in an s-expression iirc
it's just a meaningless atom

user

Yeah

wizzwizz4

19:44

@GingerIndustries Trying to find a language where they're all different.

Ginger Industries

@wizzwizz4 so a language where the code "f", "f()", "f ()', and "f(())" each does something different?

Wheat Wizard

Yep.

wizzwizz4

Yeah.

Unrelated String

Indeed.

emanresu A

Absolutely.

Ginger Industries

19:46

got it

hMMMMM

Wheat Wizard

wizzwizz4

@WheatWizard Wikia?

user

Where's this from? Wikipedia?

Wheat Wizard

I'm keeping a chart in my wikipedia sandbox.

Unrelated String

ah

Ginger Industries

19:47

none of them work in APOL because f is the for-loop instruction

emanresu A

Or malbolge

wizzwizz4

None of them work in x86 assembly either.

Unrelated String

unbelievable

caird coinheringaahing

f is the only one that works in Jelly I believe

user

@WheatWizard In Scala, f could be just the function f, it could be a function call without arguments if that's how the function was defined, or it could be a function call to a function taking only implicit arguments :|

hyper-neutrino

19:49

@Adám xD

emanresu A

@cairdcoinheringaahing Because ) is undefined behaviourt

hyper-neutrino

took me a sec to remember what that was about

Wheat Wizard

In Brain-flak it's 1: nothing; 2: The value 1; 3: The value 1; 4: Push 1

caird coinheringaahing

@emanresuA Because ( is undefined behaviour

emanresu A

Oh :P

Unrelated String

19:50

) is just a chain separator

emanresu A

I remember that now, got mixed up

caird coinheringaahing

Although its really because ( starts a new chain (due to UB), and ) ends that chain, and you can't have an empty chain with )

user

Wonder if there's a mainstream language where () and ( ) are distinct

Unrelated String

i thought it was something shallower with the regex parsing

pxeger

@user Bourne Shell?

user

19:51

> regex parsing

Unrelated String

@user ~~well, speaking of jelly~~

caird coinheringaahing

Nope, it attempts to pop from the empty list of chains

Ginger Industries

regex:
f, f(), and f(()) matches any occurence of the letter f
f () matches the string "f<space>"

:/

Unrelated String

as in i thought (qu were a shallower issue with the regex parsing which is why i was surprised that ()( is illegal

pxeger

HTML? They all print different literal strings :þ

user

19:52

@pxeger Huh, so it's discarding a value and making arrays

Wheat Wizard

C has the same behavior as JS.

caird coinheringaahing

@UnrelatedString Not so much an issue as UB

user

JS has a lot of C syntax in it

caird coinheringaahing

Interestingly tho, while () errors, (µ doesn't

pxeger

@WheatWizard can you extract a different behaviour using macros? I don't think so, but maybe it's possible

Unrelated String

19:53

i think that's because it doesn't try to actually pop the chain

Wheat Wizard

@pxeger Probably.

Unrelated String

evaluation of the whole program can handle empty chains, applying quicks not so much

caird coinheringaahing

@UnrelatedString Yep, it only tries to pop the chain if it involves a quick acting on that chain

And ) is implemented as µ€

pxeger

@WheatWizard oh, can you use the fact that #define f () is different to #define f()

Ginger Industries

clearly the only way to fix this is to make a new language where it works

user

19:55

@pxeger tio.run/##S9ZNT07@/…

Not sure if this is what you meant

Unrelated String

@user not sure i'm seeing distinctions there

user

I mean you could potentially make it do different things, but this just shows it compiles

Unrelated String

ic

Ginger Industries

presenting: f()
it's deadfish but:
f = i
f() = d
f () = s
f(()) = o
capital F between commands

3

user

F

Ginger Industries

20:01

actually no capital f

f()fff ()f ()ff ()f()f(()) prints 288

fff ()f ()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f(()) prints 0

can someone make an interpreter?

emanresu A

Working on it right now

The matching's tougher than I thought

caird coinheringaahing

Split on f

emanresu A

Oh true lol

I was using regex

hyper-neutrino

ok this stupid website's password requirement is actually so stupid

no symbols besides _ @ . -

or spaces

needs at lease one number and one capital letter

except it doesn't require at least one lowercase letter??? so i can just use only uppercase

Ginger Industries

CMC: write a program that outputs truthy if input matches password requirements and falsy otherwise

actually lemme write that into an actual question rq

emanresu A

20:07

@GingerIndustries Interpreter

(Transpiles into Vyxal)

Ginger Industries

@emanresuA nice

@emanresuA of course

@emanresuA It doesn't work correctly

emanresu A

(`ġ` is the deadfish commmand set equivalents in Vyxal)

Ginger Industries

fff ()f ()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f()f(()) should output 0 but in your interpreter I get -17

emanresu A

@GingerIndustries Wdym?

Idk what I did wrong there, one moment

Ginger Industries

deadfish math is odd

@hyper-neutrino I assume you mean SE?

hyper-neutrino

20:10

@GingerIndustries no, the website for my physics course

Ginger Industries

@hyper-neutrino alright

hyper-neutrino

also, the way the grade is distributed, you can do none of the assignments and your final accounts for 100% of your grade

and the assignments are paywalled

what the actual fuck is this shit

Ginger Industries

ಠ_ಠ

hyper-neutrino

like, many courses have mandatory course materials that require you to buy them independently, and that's fine

~~mostly because those are easy to pirate~~

but it costs at least $50 to get access to the site hosting the assignments, which isn't bad compared to the tuition but still, feels wrong to me

Ginger Industries

@hyper-neutrino I'm working on turning those requirements into a challenge but I'm worried it's too trivial

fffff ()f ()

emanresu A

20:16

@GingerIndustries better?

Thomas Ward

waves

Ginger Industries

@emanresuA nope, f()fff ()f ()ff ()f()f(()) should output 288 but outputs 32

caird coinheringaahing

@ThomasWard waves back

Ginger Industries

@ThomasWard insert ocean joke here

Thomas Ward

@GingerIndustries puts Ginger in the ocean for reasons on one of the backed up cargo ships waiting in LA harbor for the past 110 days to actually unload cargo

Ginger Industries

20:19

@ThomasWard ಠ_ಠ

Thomas Ward

it's better than being in siberia in the frozen gulag :P

at least it's warmish :P

Unrelated String

@pxeger i'm leaning towards not possible, but you can make f(x) different from (f)(x)

tio.run/##S9ZNT07@/…

emanresu A

@GingerIndustries Oops

Unrelated String

since the space matters in the #define but the actual syntax for expanding the macro doesn't care about space

emanresu A

I modulo'd it by 256 instead of resetting on 256

Thomas Ward

20:22

@hyper-neutrino do you need some tea to calm thyself? o.O

Ginger Industries

@ThomasWard ಠ___ಠ

emanresu A

Actually working version

Thomas Ward

@GingerIndustries (ಠ益ಠ)

Ginger Industries

@emanresuA nice

tbh we should add this to the tnb wiki

Thomas Ward

just wanted to stop by and say hi is all :)

y'all are good company :)

Ginger Industries

20:25

@ThomasWard we're flattered

hello redwolf, we made a programming language

Redwolf Programs

Oh no not again

4

Unrelated String

just realized it could make a funny trivial brainfuck derivative too

Ginger Industries

The worst is when you run out of monospaced fonts and have to use variable-width variables.

2

Unrelated String

of course there's no naming conflict with the deadfish because we can just call it f ()

Ginger Industries

@UnrelatedString that won't cause confusion

Unrelated String

20:27

clearly

Ginger Industries

@UnrelatedString even better: ̍f()

f() is pronounced "fracket"̒, ̒f() is pronounced "frackit"

Unrelated String

true

Ginger Industries

idea: language where the only command is "ಠ" and you change what it does by adding diacritical marks

pxeger

@GingerIndustries then f is pronounced "frack", and f(()) is pronounced "itt"

Ginger Industries

@pxeger no, f(()) is pronounced "frackeitakit"

emanresu A

20:35

@GingerIndustries ಠ_ಠ

Ginger Industries

@emanresuA that just prints "_"

hello world in ಠ: Hello World!ಠ

I need to write up a spec for this, one second

you use ̀ for math, and ̲̠̄̅ for operations

underscore between instructions

actually, ಠ can't have diacritical marks

CMQ: I need a character that supports diacritical marks to use in Diakrit

emanresu A

Just use a space

Ginger Industries

just looking throuh the comments on the xkcd X comic, and saw this thing

I don't know what to think

Hello world in Diakrit: Hello World!

1 + 1: 1 1 ̀̄

I thought Jelly and Vyxal were unreadable, but I think that Diakrit takes the cake in that category

pxeger

@GingerIndustries that's just an expression-oriented language. The feature exists in Ruby, Haskell, Rust, and many more

Ginger Industries

@pxeger ಠ_ಠ

now all we need is for someone to make a Diakrit interpreter

once I figure out the spec

Print hello world forever: Hello World!̆̀ ̆

user

21:07

@GingerIndustries That's just poorly formatted

New Posts

0

Q: Mutually recursive lists

Let's define a simple function \$f\$ which takes an integer and produces a list: \$ f(n) = [g(1),g(2),\dots,g(n)] \\ g(n) = [f(0),f(1),\dots,f(n-1)] \$ We can then calculate the first couple of values for \$f(n)\$: 0 -> [] 1 -> [[[]]] 2 -> [[[]],[[],[[[]]]]] 3 -> [[[]],[[],[[[]]]],[[],[[[]]],...

caird coinheringaahing

21:34

@GingerIndustries No, that would be Unreadable

emanresu A

22:23

@RedwolfPrograms This time I ninja'd you

user

22:43

camo.githubusercontent.com/…

Rickroll through text, how cool is that?

emanresu A

> Non-Image content-type returned

hyper-neutrino

all i see is Non-Image content-type returned

Redwolf Programs

22:57

It's a reverse-rickroll :p

We all expect to see rick astley but instead get an ordinary link

lyxal

wus popping y'all?

Redwolf Programs

Hi!

emanresu A

G'day mate

Wait no

G'joink mate

lyxal

How do you do fellow ~~kids~~ code golfers?

Redwolf Programs

Tfw you try to install something you really need for RTO but it just doesn't work

emanresu A

23:10

What is it?

Redwolf Programs

gVisor

emanresu A

googles it

Redwolf Programs

It just won't work on my server for some reason

lyxal

Because you're not Australian

That's why

emanresu A

^

lyxal

23:12

yVisor might be what you want

emanresu A

@lyxal This?

Redwolf Programs

gvisor.dev/docs

It's for sandboxing OCI/Docker containers

user

> y_setattr_patched() takes 3 positional arguments but 24 were given

Adám

@lyxal I could probably be the father of most active people here ;-)

lyxal

@Adám just adopt 24 code golfers lol

user

23:19

@Adám For a second I interpreted that as you having a lot of kids, brainwashing them to like code golf, then spreading them across the world, after which some would join CGCC lol

Redwolf Programs

Wait I might've stumbled across the cause of the issue

user

@hyper-neutrino Wait really? It displays as a (really bad) rickroll if I click on it

hyper-neutrino

@user ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i see just that text on both ff and chrome

user

Does it load for you here?

Redwolf Programs

Okay, rebooting...

It's working!

Hooray!

I had to revert to cgroups v1

emanresu A

23:26

Nice!

Have you got to language setup yet?

Redwolf Programs

Language setup?

thejonymyster

@emanresuA ah ok, noted ! _^^;

i just figured it was just something that didnt need elaboration since it was like, a typo basically

but yes i will just comment then (-0-0)b

Redwolf Programs

I mean to me the edit seemed fine shrugs

caird coinheringaahing

23:47

@Adám The average age of TNBers is one of the lowest of most of the main chat rooms, I believe

Adám

makes sense

Redwolf Programs

NP/SP/OSP drag that average down by a lot though ;p

emanresu A

@RedwolfPrograms Adding languages

Redwolf Programs

Oh

I've got JS added from the old install, I need to write the start.py file now

I'm also currently getting the symlink set up so the testing site will work

emanresu A

Adám

23:56

Still alive an' kickin'

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