So what are we learning?

Stack cats?

Stack cats is fun.

Tried it the other day, they all got mad and hissed at me

Don't use live cats.

How did you even get the third one in place?

@Nitrodon Put them in boxes first.

Rotate every other cat 90°, since they form roughly an upside down U shape, they interlock to form a secure structure

Stacks are last in first out so you only ever need to worry about one cat escaping at a time, so it doesn't get any harder as the stack gets taller.

The cats on the bottom will find a way.

A queue of cats? Must be feeding time.

The fluid nature of cats means that any one cat can leave at any time, but no two adjacent cats can simultaneously leave the stack.

They have to lift up their legs, and if two of them do that, they'll just squash each other.

We can also generalize it to imaginary cats

I thought that was what the 90° rotation was for.

Oh good point

Does it generalise to quaternions?

We could use group theory, but they're too territorial for that

Field theory, then?

Or topology.

I'm watching a video on topology right now lol

So Stack Cats or Vyxal?

Or Desmos?

@RedwolfPrograms why not 2100?

Oh is it every 200 years?

it's every 100 years, except for every 400 years

Oh wait I have it backwards

I was thinking they were only omitted every 400 years for some reason

Alright. I feel like we have all learned stack cats here. See y'all later I'm heading off.

I don't think Stack Cats can be considered known until you know how to use both sides of the line.

We still haven't figured out how to prevent the cats from escaping when you stack them.

Staples.

also, what if you were born on 29 Feb 1896? You'd turn 16 on 29 Feb 1964... 24836 days later

I don't think people born on leap years measure their ages like that lol

Misread it. No, that's entirely accurate.

I think it worked that way in Pirates of Penzance.

what if you were born on 19 Feb 1884? You'd never turn 16.

In real life, I think you're officially a year older on February 28 in non-leap years.

Huh, I'd think it's March 1st for some reason

That makes sense, on years without a leap year.

But years with a leap year, you do have a birthday, so it should count the number of February 29ths.

no LYAL then?

@cairdcoinheringaahing stack cats

The top voted nominated langs are Stack Cats, Vyxal and Desmos

We at vyxal aren't ready yet

Also zsh needs to be redone sometime too

Zsh was redone last time

@cairdcoinheringaahing which?

Anyone got a problem with Stack Cats?

None here

full steam ahead

It's hard enough to catch one of them sometimes, let alone stack two on top of each other. Otherwise, no problems.

SCCMC: print [[1], [2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9, 10]]

What do you mean? I don't think Stack Cats has such a thing as a nested list.

or do this but stack

Ooh, Stack Cats is the one that has some reversible computing stuff involved isn't it?

Welcome to the tenth Learn You A Lang For Great Good! Today, we'll be learning Stack Cats, a stack based, symmetric language where programs undo themselves. Feel free to ask questions about the language, post CMCs related to it and general discussion for Stack Cats

SCCMC: quine

@RedwolfPrograms Yep. Basically every command undoes the same command in the previous half of the program

@Fmbalbuena Can we please start with some simpler stuff?

@Fmbalbuena You might want to take a look at Stack Cats to understand how complicated/difficult it is to do basic things in the language

Quines are non-trivial in practical languages, let alone one where 90% of valid programs are no-ops

SCCMC: 99 bottles of beer

Please.

Sorry

SCCMC: Output the numbers 1 through 10

Just a reminder, there is between 1k and 2k reputation available in a deadlineless bounty for being able to consistently write non-trivial Stack Cats programs

So probably something like transpilation or writing a BF interpreter in it?

Honestly, I can't yet figure out how to output just the number 10.

No, more like how to not waste half of the program

@Nitrodon Seems like repeated application of !- works

Well, I almost can output a single number

Is there a way to get the TIO interpreter to output as numbers rather than a string?

-o flag

Thanks!

I just got this :þ

Try it online! Yay, I got it to output 10 :P

Same! Well, -10, but what's even the difference

Okay, 10 now!

...I just realised there isn't a "duplicate TOS" command

Nope, it's not reversible :D

I've been working on a reversible language recently

SCCMC: Print "Aaron, What are you doing in the freezer? Plates don't go in the freezer. They go in the cupboard"

I was thinking (!-) could be an easy way to make the TOS to 0 at the start (instead of -1), but in reverse that also makes the TOS 0 again

@Fmbalbuena That's going to be a very long program

SCCMC: Print "AWAYDITFPDGITFTGITC"

Try printing A

*P"

@cairdcoinheringaahing Here's my attempt at 27 bytes.

Wait that's not mirrored

@cairdcoinheringaahing BWIDUWDYWPCYDTBILNJAPDTN

@RedwolfPrograms You can use the m and l flags to mirror the code

oh

I feel like I need a simpler one to start with lol

How does this event work anyway?

Basically, conversation about Stack Cats is "extra on-topic" for the next 24hrs or so, and people are encouraged to post CMCs specific to the lang, as well as try to learn some of it

oh @cairdcoinheringaahing is a room owner here! I remember you from the Winter Bash 2021 chat room!

I came here because we're doing a bit of 'code golf' here:

I put "code golf" in inverted commas because we're just looking for faster and more efficient ways of optimizing this person's code, which isn't precisely the same as trying to reduce the number of characters, but it might be an interesting question for people here if they use Python or MATLAB.

As a fastest-code question?

We have fastest-code here too, so...oh wait I've been ninja'd :p

haha, you guys/girls are awesome!

Wow 176 questions on that tag!

Make sure to post in our sandbox first, sometimes fastest-code challenges can be a bit difficult to write a good specification for

@RedwolfPrograms The question was written by someone that I don't know. But there's been three answers so far, all with different ways of solving the OP's problem, so it was starting to look like a game of "golf". It's something that's a little rare on that site, so I wanted to share it here in case people here are interested in writing better/improved answers.

Ah, ok

@hyper-neutrino It's been a long time since I was last in this room so I reviewed the chatiquette and noticed that one-boxing is discouraged here. It's unfortunately been too many minutes ago, so I can't edit my chat message, but if you want to change it to a hyperlink then feel free to do so!

IMO that onebox is perfectly fine, it's only if it's multiple at a time or for no real reason that it's discouraged

@user1271772 nothing wrong with a onebox here or there! especially for posting a question. it's mostly long images you need to be considerate about and as long as you're being reasonable with it we don't really have an issue with it in general

We even have a bot that auto-posts oneboxes for new questions, so we're not too worried about the occasional onebox :p

Multiple bots :P

Thanks guys, this room is always the friendliest and one of the most active!

We just hit 2m messages yesterday :D

Or, as the homepage says, 2000k :p

A testament of how much of a collective life we don't have :p

The PHP room has 3523k messages! haha

The 19th byte already has 2001k messages :)

I see now that there's rooms on SO with > 5000k messages so the PHP room is not even close!

@lyxal Well, by my calculations, we collectively don't have about about 0.027 lives

That's the average number of posts in units of k?

Since this room has approx. 23256885 words in it, and the average person speaks around 860 million words in their life :p

That's awesome

that’s 2.7 year if we have 100 year lifespan in average

work together we can grind a human’s life to death by using up 1 life of words

Death any% speedrun strats sure have evolved

bees

I need a name for a lisp

What sort of lisp?

Is it a practical one, or a golfy one, or an esolangy one?

it's a practicalish one

beeth

You could name it Daffy, after a famous cartoon character with a lisp

hmm

psil

oh hi citrons

hi

what about citric lisp

or even citralisp

hm I could reuse my previous naming idea of "lemp", short for "lemon processor"

google.com/search?q=lemon+compounds has a lot of useful names

ah, good idea

Introducing three new lisp variants: Water, Cholesterol, and Lipid :p

lispid

Ooh that's actually quite good

I was going to joke about how dumb Linalool sounds but I could actually totally see a language being called Linalool

Winthrop

ooh, what about just lina

Yeah, that's not bad

for the record I'm technically participating in the LYAL event. Here's my program that does nothing: ()(). I haven't tested it :) now I have to go to sleep o/

o/

o/

Hi!

Hi!

Anything interesting happen while I was gone?

How long were you gone?

Three days, I think

There was some discussion of fractional byte counts earlier today

Oh, best of CGCC

I kinda want to do a bounty but I kinda want to keep my newly gained 20k priveledeges

If you win at least one category, you can do both :p

Or if I get three upvotes

I'd just do a bounty, you seem to earn rep pretty quickly anyway

True

You missed the 2 millionth message in TNB :p

And some server maintenance, which means that NP/SP shouldn't go down nearly as much as before

Was it anything interesting

@RedwolfPrograms We'll find out on monday

It's weird how older answers are labelled '21

My brain seems to have just accepted it's 2022 now, I'm guessing it'll take a few weeks for me to actually realize and freak out about the fact that another year somehow passed

Same lol

CMC: Guess who has the highest voted Vyxal answer

You?

Nope

It's not anyone you'd thinlk

Or maybe someone I don't expect like HN or user or caird or Prashanth Chandrasekar

doubt it's me

@emanresuA It is you if we ignore trivial (whatever number)-language polyglots

was just gonna mention ^

though that 283 votes one is crazy

Dammit, thought I'd fooled y'all

It's that 27-votes one that's also my highest voted answer, I think

I should grab some new data for my language ranking program, it currently has Vyxal at like a...pretty small number of answers lol

@emanresuA not much, just standard feature request PRs

We have more issues than when I left lol

@emanresuA i have a huge hat

that covers my pfp

You're not the only one lol

lol

@emanresuA ^

I thought it'd be something more interesting...

like?....

idk lol

Vyxal uses sympy for like everything right?

for numbers

no sympy strings

i guess this is a valid I/O method then

@lyxal arrays?

ah for arrays also

@lyxal any reason for using sympy?

fractions

@PyGamer0 yes

@lyxal why? to avoid floating point errors?

that, and because they're cool

and not many golfing languages use rationals for everything

best approximation of PI :P

@DLosc btw that's actually what ended up happening

there's a bunch of symbolic algebra overloads now lol

@PyGamer0 31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 is better ;p

have you memorized till that much?

i have like 20 digits in my head

Well, Vyxal and 9 of its with-a-flag variants now have enough answers to be counted by my ranking script

@PyGamer0 ki

@RedwolfPrograms Which flags lol

I just realize the data I was using for testing is over a year old lol

@lyxal What happened to sympy.pi

@emanresuA C, d, D, j, r, R, s, S, and Ṫ

^ math homework, kinda

@emanresuA that probably is sympy.pi

that question is ez

Two of my languages are now being ranked, dotcomma and Risky

@emanresuA it's just been evaluated and printed

Neither existed prior to when I got my old data lol

Oh

@RedwolfPrograms make sure to include h and c /s

And thanks to your non-ASCII flags, I need to update some of my regexes :p

We're the QA of code golf ranking systems :p

@RedwolfPrograms C and j are probably ASCII art, dsṪ are for convenient output, rR are when it's convenient or when working with ranges for the latter, D is for quines / source generation.

Also @emanresuA I found something you've missed over the last few days:

I saw that, good job

Yeah, there were no flag-heavy languages other than Japt when I got my old data, so Vyxal's revealed two annoying flaws with my duplicate-finding code

Which I've already been making incremental improvements to for the last like month lol

@RedwolfPrograms is dinoux on the list ?

No

How many dinoux answers are there?

How about Keg?

Can't wait to see how low it ranks

Keg is, yeah

@RedwolfPrograms 4, 3? lol

You'll need 10 before it'll rank it

What about, say, these two

@RedwolfPrograms did I mention it's flag heavy too?

I can lower the threshold, but then I need to spend hours sifting through duplicates

@lyxal Yeah, but only -hr makes it past the threshold

Quipu's on the list now

Along with Regenerate

Anyway, I should probably go to sleep now o/

o/

I need to implement one more stage of the language filtering and normalizing process, and then I can start on the actual ranking code

Which should take like an hour at most

Refining the deduplication and hierarchy construction is so time consuming

The final stage just dumps you in a terminal sorta thing and has you correct any remaining issues manually, so it shouldn't require as much tweaking as the others

@user what

how do people make things in C

...?

like, i want to make a programming language in C, where do I start

in a general case: Right, I gotta make something in C. Now, where do I start, do I implement this or that?

You just do it like you'd do in Python but without any Python built-ins

hm and pointer headache?

yes, also fighting with malloc and free

and sometimes doing something like this

On a more serious note, you probably should read three textbooks, one in data structures, one in automata, and one in compiler design, all written for C (there must be plenty, because C)

wait how would x[n]==n[x] be a problem in and of itself

Vyxal does that

confusing for beginners

Golfytho

it's indicative of pointers being funky but i don't see how it would actually cause issues

i guess i am bad at making memes

There's a reason people prefer to use higher-level langs (and also the langs with a proper ecosystem/package manager)

does c also just dump the entire source code in when you import/whatever it's called

yeah i think

hence the include gaurds

@PyGamer0 What's up with using an APL font for C‽

@Adám ¯\_(○_○)_/¯

@hyper-neutrino it dumps the headers in so the names are defined, but then the rest is linked in

ah

@Adám i have my atom set up to use the apl font, lol. i quite like it; it took me a bit to fully get used to it (just cuz it's different, not because it's bad), but i like it now

my terminal too

actually surprised that people still use atom

what's better

zed?

made in rust by atom devs?

@hyper-neutrino vscodium

@UnrelatedString wait

hm zed isn't even out yet

zed.dev

that would explain why i haven't heard of it

@hyper-neutrino well, if you want make your own and call it DaBest-the best editor

oddly enough i think i have heard of treesitter

@hyper-neutrino also neovim is better

not really.

@UnrelatedString its some highlighter static analysis thingy

neovim definitely faster

i don't find atom slow enough that it bothers me

i tried it (with neovim), doesnt work and takes a lot of time (well it takes a few minutes, i am impaitent) to complie

sometimes lags but so does my file explorer cuz win 11 is garbage

@hyper-neutrino i have used atom in the past; became too slow for me so i ditched it

anyways it doesn't look so much like a full substitute for atom as it is a substitute for atom-with-teletype

hyper you're on windows 11? are you kidding me

less emphasis on plugins but probably will end up being the better editor when it's actually out

i thought people learned never to upgrade windows since that windows 10 fiasco

and yeah atom using electron can be an issue depending on your machine lmao

@Razetime even user

it was not good for my macbook

i cant (switch to Windows 11) cause my processor is old

@Razetime ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

is the codidact posts bot still working?

the feed is still in the room so as long as codidact's RSS is working, it should be working

@Razetime you use Emacs right?

i change editors once every hour

∘○∘

lol why

well why ask about emacs

@Razetime are you chatting here from emacs rn?

i don't think emacs has an option for SE chat

I can probably chat in the apl orchard from emacs since it has/had an IRC link

soo you use emacs from the terminal or a gui, and do you use evil?

gui emacs is grounds for an international criminal court case

i don't have emacs on this machine, i think

CMP: (Talking about editing text, not fancy stuff like games and calendars and IRC), Vim or Emacs or Sublime

only vim and vscode(which i use exclusively for its amazing C++ suport)

@PyGamer0 They’re all different

honestly i switched from vscode to neovim because of this amazing gui lol

ignore the fact that i am in the org lol

The only one I’ve tried much is sublime and it’s not bad but it’s kinda stagnating (a lot of plugins are from 2017) and vscode is just as fast imo so no reason to use it

plain vim is just a great, no-nonsense editor which is super fast

are you sure that vscode is as fast as sublime

big (X) doubt there

my father uses vscode + vim plugin

Honestly I wish I could use something more intelligent than vim but I haven't found anything with good enough vim keybindings for me

kakoune?

kakoune is still quite new

I'd love a vscode plugin to give me entirely customisable modal editing

marketplace.visualstudio.com/… don't think this is exactly what you want but it seems close

kakoune

@Razetime that looks like it might do, actually

@PyGamer0 and?

@PyGamer0 neovim has 20000 commits

does that signal maturity or the existence of widespread community support

wow vscode has 90000+ commits commits of kakoune×10

@Razetime probably both

@Razetime nope, that's for Visual Studio, not VS Code

github recognises kakoune script

@pxeger huh? it's in the vs code marketplace, somehow

wait yeah

@PyGamer0 you need to understand that question better

this is confusing, why can't I install it then?

anyway kakoune has no APL or K extensions that i know of

so i'm not bothering with it for now

BQN has kakoune support

BQN is also about as new and mature as kakoune

@Razetime emacs has support for APL?

yep

harsman/dyalog-mode

AProgrammingLanguage(madeby)JoKing

apl.wiki/Editors

and i assume emacs has lsp support

@Razetime can the REPL be run inside of emacs itself?

uh idk

it allows fixing files inside RIDE and stuff like that

i used it for the problem solving competition

> do you use evil?

why do you need to know that

i might give emacs + evil a try, idk

@Razetime just asking

doom emacs comes with evil preinstalled so yes

ok

just stick with one editor that supports everything you want

ook then ill use neovim because of the gui

Good job gamer.

time to restar all my starred repos to bother my followers :P

do you like losing followers

it was a joke

also, do you like wasting time double clicking on 602 star buttons

can't lose them if you didn't have them to begin with :bigbrain:

@hyper-neutrino Is this some sort of peasant joke I'm too github popular to understand? :p

yes :P

lol

@Razetime It’s not noticeably slower

@Razetime well i dont have anything better to do :P /s

@hyper-neutrino suffering from success