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18:00
that's ok, I couldn't either. I learned last April when Vim was LotM
CMQ: Using the English subjunctive, should it be "it's important that this be", or "it's important that this is"? I know that if you replaced "this" with "you", then the former would be correct, but what about with 3rd-person pronouns?
i think the two mean different things
to me "it's important that this be <x>" implies "we must make sure this is <x>" but "it's important that this is <x>" implies "this is already <x>, and this fact is important"
not sure if that's actually true of how the grammatical structures work though; that's just how the two feel to me
I'd be inclined to agree, but I still don't think the first one sounds right when used with "this"
same. I'd use "it's important for this to be <x>"
I agree.
18:14
@cairdcoinheringaahing One more testcase added
@cairdcoinheringaahing … and the spec changed, pretty significantly, imo.
@Adám do you find bugs in Sandbox Post?
@Adám With my edits to @Fmbalbuena's draft?
@cairdcoinheringaahing Yeah, now no-ops are grouped onto a single line.
I didn't make that change
18:18
thats my edit
URLPattern seems interesting
@cairdcoinheringaahing I know, hence my heads-up.
@pxeger If you really want the subjunctive, then "it's important that this be" is correct (Wiktionary conjugation chart, for reference). But I agree with @hyper-neutrino that I'd use the infinitive phrase "it's important for this to be" instead.
and "Comment" are changed to "No Operation"
@Adám Ah right, sorry, I interpreted your message to mean that you thought my changes significantly changed @Fmbalbuena's original draft
18:19
Ooh, and Chrome 95's starting opt-in reduced user agent information
@cairdcoinheringaahing Still wait?
to post question?
@RedwolfPrograms or, in the short term: opt-in increased user agent fingerprintability
@Fmbalbuena Do you mind explaining why you want such a significant part of the challenge to consist of golfing the human-readable explanation texts?
Although, I have a lot of work to do, so I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to edit the draft for the next few days. I'd suggest just asking for feedback from anyone, @Fmbalbuena, next time you do so
and my money's on it never becoming non-opt-in, so it'll be like DNT: just another way to track people
18:21
@Fmbalbuena I'd ask people if they think it's ready to post, I haven't read it since the changes today (and I don't really intend to, as I said, I'm busy)
caird ok
@Adám you look like vyxal bot
What do you mean?
@Adám go to Vyxal room
@pxeger They specifically plan on making it the default soon
(if you can)
18:25
@Fmbalbuena Give me the link.
I don't trust Google as far as I can throw 'em
I'm hoping ECH starts to show up in browsers by 2024, it'd suck if it started gaining traction right before I graduated high school lol
@RedwolfPrograms you know they'd just force-install a TLS certificate on your device
and block all access if you didn't
or just block all traffic containing an ECH, pretending (to browsers) that the TLS extension just isn't supported
Probably, yeah. Maybe I'd get a few weeks of unrestricted internet before they figure it out and I'd need to get a better hotspot
18:32
@pxeger actually, this must not be possible, or it would completely defeat the point
@pxeger That wouldn't work if you couldn't disable ECH on personal devices
wdym? Why?
Because then personal devices just wouldn't work on their wifi at all
And they can't really force people to pay for school laptops
(or maybe they can, but that doesn't seem like their sort of thing)
ffs, if I press the pause button on my keyboard while SE chat is in the middle of playing a ding, it pauses the ding instead of what I'm listening to lol
18:35
@RedwolfPrograms wouldn't the browser just connect normally instead then?
or does ECH prohibit that using a similar system to HSTS?
I'd imagine it'd be handled similarly to an HTTP downgrade attack
Although I don't actually know too much about those
Huh, why is this called D³ and not D⁴?
IIRC there was something in ECH designed to prevent this sort of thing but I don't remember too much about the specifics
@Adám presumably because the dos is a preposition ("of the"), so it's omitted from the acronym (like "[the] US [of] A")
Yeah, probably. Still kind of funny.
18:40
how do you indicate that an object's optionality is optional? E.g. the is arguably optional in the USA, so I put [the] USA, but in some contexts it isn't optional. Do I surround the [] in [], like [[]the[]] USA (parsed as [[] the []] USA)?
TIL the cable going to my modem with my whole house's internet and TV was being crushed under a table leg for the last year and a half
me_irl
what type of cable? coax (cable cable)?
It's one of the ethernet-looking ones
Maybe ethernet-ethernet, idk
Actually I should really take a look at that cable, we're paying for 300 Mbps, but I only get around 100
100 on wifi, or wired to the router?
Both
My server's wired to the router, and it gets about 100 in both directions
18:44
because if it's wired, it could well be the intermediate cable limiting it
maybe your internet connection is just shared with your neighbours
CMP: do y'all ever use your thumb to press X (like, when typing)
not on a desktop keyboard
no
I do on a phone keyboard
I type in a very weird way so no
18:46
huh. seems like i am just really weird then
some people press left shift with their thumb
i use my thumb on "X" to type "example" and "next" but 50/50 index or thumb to type "index"
No, but I do frequently use the shift key on the same side as the letter I'm pressing
I use my left thumb for shift
tf
@DLosc I never use right shift, and tbh I don't understand why people do
18:48
i pretty much never use rshift
@RedwolfPrograms how does that even work
I don't type the correct way
actually, I use it when I'm typing characters with the compose key (e.g. RCtrl + RShift + T H -> Þ), because I use right control for compose
I mainly use my pointer and middle fingers
oh i guess i could see that working if you do that
how many wpm do you get typing like that anyway, i'm curious :p
@pxeger oh, that's interesting. i don't actually have a compose key but if I did it'd probably be right alt - which on my current keyboard layout is the APL key
I don't type properly either, but I use 6 fingers (+ L thumb for space, L pinky for ctrl/shift/alt/super and Escape (which is where caps lock is for me), R thumb unused, and R pinky for enter)
18:50
I just use a US INTL keyboard layout
@pxeger When typing A with the left little finger, it's easier to use right shift. But I often just move my hand over and hit the letter key with my left ring finger. I'm not sure how often I actually do this because every time I try to pay attention, I end up confusing myself and hitting both shift keys at the same time. :P
huh, I type A with my ring finger
same; i actually pretty much exclusively use my fifth fingers for keys like shift/ctrl and not on the letters themselves
even though technically proper typing for is to have your 5/4/3/2/1 fingers on asdf<space> and ;lkj<space> or something like that
@hyper-neutrino I only ever use my thumbs to tap space
same
the angle just isn't right for any other keys
18:52
i thought so too until i was messing around with monkeytype and realized i was using my thumb on X
but interestingly, never my right thumb for like N or something like that
i can sort of see that i guess?
do y'all ever use right thumb for space
wouldn't the analogous key on the right be ,
often
18:53
@cairdcoinheringaahing wait, do you mean "the only use for the thumbs is to tap space", or "the only way I tap space is using my thumbs"?
@hyper-neutrino Always
probably both
@UnrelatedString oh yeah true. well like, i just don't use my right thumb on the main section of the keyboard like I do left thumb :p
18:53
surely you use thumb-ring to alt-tab right?
thumb middle
sometimes ring but usually middle
if I need to hammer the space key N times (for indenting in weird places), I use my R index
that works too - but like, thumb for alt i mean
18:54
actually it's more often pinky than ring (but usually middle)
@hyper-neutrino Super + Digit keys is better than alt+tab
@pxeger true but i can never be bothered to get muscle memory of where my applications are lol
for screenshots i do thumb on windows, ring on shift, index on s
@pxeger (Win+1 to activate 1st item on taskbar, etc. up to 9 for 9th and 0 for 10th)
18:55
@pxeger The only use of thumbs is space
@UnrelatedString oh interesting. i use thumb-pinky-middle which is admittedly objectively worse :P
@pxeger TIL
@hyper-neutrino although when I'm on my desktop, basically all my apps are open on different screens, so I just use the mouse
can't relate, only have one monitor
18:56
@UnrelatedString I have printscreen rebound - it's useful to have a dedicated key
@UnrelatedString ... I use PrintScreen o_o
also: CMQ: do you ever use scroll lock/sysrq and/or pause/break
i use printscreen when i want to grab my whole screen immediately
This is legit a question from my university level maths course homework: "Find integers s and t such that 11s + 13t = 1"
@pxeger Nope, because they're not on my laptop :p
18:57
I#m paying £9250 a year for this
tbf, you're only in week (whatever week number it is)
@cairdcoinheringaahing no, you probably aren't
@pxeger I mean. I am, just not right now :P
18:59
CMQ: Should I buy cat 6 or cat 6a cables? I have no need for 6a right now, but it sounds cooler.
@cairdcoinheringaahing not if unnecessarily complex loan nonrepayment criteria!
@pxeger Jokes on you, I'm borrowing money from my parents to pay it, not a bank :P
@RedwolfPrograms cat5e can basically do 10gig, so cat6 is fine unless you intend to spend too much money on 25g+ equipment
@pxeger Not anymore. I believe Ctrl-Pause was the key combo to kill a QBasic program back in the day, which was very useful for accidental infinite loops. Sadly, it doesn't work on Archive.org.
19:00
@cairdcoinheringaahing not even The Student Loan Company? Why'd you decide that?
@RedwolfPrograms You already have cat 2, you don't need 6 more
4
@pxeger Because my parents are much nicer than banks :P
@cairdcoinheringaahing caird (maths uni student): 2+6=6
CMC: Rhyme something with "fungal hyphae".
> Should I buy cat 6
No addition involved, Redwolf is asking about buying 6 cats
It's funnier as "6 cat" :p
19:02
@emanresuA Which way are you pronouncing "hyphae"?
I interpreted "cat 2" as "the second cat", and thus "cat 6" as "the cats numbered from 3 to 6"
@emanresuA Would you like a creme brulee?
@cairdcoinheringaahing TSLC is much nicer than banks!
@pxeger would not "cat 6" be the 6th cat then
(which still fits your interpretation of 2+4=6)
@pxeger I think my parents might even be nicer than TSLC :P
19:02
@hyper-neutrino yes, but buying cat 6 necessitates buying obtaining cats 3 through 5
true but cat 6 is not the other 3 :p
@cairdcoinheringaahing but they could be earning interest in a savings account on that money, which would probably be higher than the interest you'd pay on a student loan
@pxeger Or getting them for free
and you probably wouldn't pay off the whole student loan
@DLosc happy now?
@cairdcoinheringaahing Legit question from my one:
> Determine the height from which an object must be dropped so that it will have the same speed in ft/s when it lands as the height in feet from which it was dropped.
19:04
@pxeger :D
@emanresuA That's kind of reasonable tbh
Except for the ft/s, fuck imperial units
If you live in the US and know that the acceleration of gravity is 32 ft/s
depends on the planet (or non-planet)!
ft/s? don't you mean hamburgers/the time it takes the eagle to fly around the white house?
2
> which would probably be higher than the interest you'd pay on a student loan
actually, probably not
19:05
And it wouldn't make any sense to convert to metric units
What about football pitches/guns fired?
bytes / caird
@hyper-neutrino Hamburgers are a unit of weight, not distance :P
@pxeger Here's something fun: I've negotiated a 0% interest rate on paying my parents back. I'd like to see a bank (or any other leander) beat that :P
> they could be earning interest in a savings account
ok, maybe it's better for you, but I'd like to think you care about your parents' financial state as well
19:08
Believe me, I have discussed this intensively with my parents and their financial advisor :P
hmm, ok...
With all due respect, I'm not going to take the advice of a CGCC member on my family's financial situations over that of a financial advisor, even if I have met that CGCC member IRL :P
@pxeger "Interest in a savings account" yeah I'm sure they're missing their five cents of interest a month lol (if banks over there are anything like ones here)
lol
@pxeger I use everything but my left thumb :p
19:09
I'm not trying to give you advice, I'm trying to understand your decision-making process
2
@pxeger It's well-established that trying to understand my decision making process behind anything is a fool's errand :P
*gestures at all my esolangs*
5
@RedwolfPrograms sigh who's duct-taped your mouth this time
That just means his mouth is empty :P
19:11
Apr 16 at 14:32, by Lyxal
:Ø is when you can't scream :P
(I posted that, it was during the great profile switch)
> great
I would like to dispute this word
Great as in big, not "wow, that was great!"
It's the greatest profile switch we've had in TNB, no? :p
By that logic, we can say everything that happens in TNB once is the "great whatever"? "The Great TNB Catboy Week" etc.
Actually. Yeah, I agree with "The Great TNB Catboy Week"
I didn't come up with the name, it was from the wiki ¯\_(.-.)_/¯
@cairdcoinheringaahing But there's no historical precedence D:
Aug 17 at 18:46, by Dude coinheringaahing
@DLosc Didn't y'all hear? It's CGCC catboy/catgirl week :P
It's clearly just "CGCC catboy/catgirl week"
@RedwolfPrograms The messages following this are priceless
Aug 17 at 18:52, by user
@Dudecoinheringaahing Stay pure, don't become a catgirl! Remember, dogs are superior and cats are evil!
Nyah :P
19:21
Catboy week was fun
6
We should do more random and unplanned themed events :p
20:10
I'm not very fun to play hangman with
I just cheated for six rounds straight lol
20:28
hi all!
how do you cheat at hangman?
Pick six words with no letters in common
why would that be cheating
It's not cheating, it's strategy
20:31
Wait for them to guess six letters, count them all wrong, and you're guaranteed to know at least one word it could possibly have been
that's just cruelly effective strategy
ah
No, you don't pick one word first
ok that's definitely cheating
yeah ok that's evil :p
20:32
Yeah. Learned it from a jan Misali video lol
@RedwolfPrograms jazz? jazz.
The words I used were like atlatl, syzygy, follow, pippin, and I forgot the other two
Wait no, atlatl wasn't it
that's quite a selection of words
Any feedback on Regex mask?
@Adám needs a definition of the domain of a regex
20:33
Well that's embarassing...I had an unmatched parenthesis in an OEIS comment suggestion
@pxeger Hm, maybe I should begin by saying that "you probably only want to attempt this in a language with built-in or library support for regexes", and define that "for the purposes of this challenge, regex refers to whatever (ir)regular expressions your chosen language/library supports"?
@Adám I don't know if that will be clear enough, or if there will be sneaky workarounds. Maybe say "I will allow you to use any of the following regex syntaxes: {POSIX, Perl, Python, ...}. If your language's builtin regex syntax is not compatible with any of the above, leave a comment and I might add it to the list."
Yeah, that's better. Thanks!
Why not just make it scored per-language and per-flavor?
So Python + Perl regex isn't competing with Python + MetaGolfRegexp :p
Having a list of allowed flavors feels a bit gross
but you're not implementing the regex flavour, you're almost certainly just importing it
You'd be insane to answer with Python + Perl regex
just do Python + Python regex
@pxeger the challenge is to correctly manipulate the resulting matches into a list of the right bits
20:48
Well then why would a domain of the regex need to be defined?
because the input is nonetheless a regex
I still don't see why the answers couldn't just choose the regex flavor (and thus, the domain)
I suppose you could shrink the challenge by making the input a list of match index ranges, and converting the start of each range and gap-between-ranges into a bit answer
@RedwolfPrograms because which regex flavours are allowed needs to be defined
if you invent a "regex flavour" in which all regexes match exactly one character, then you've trivialised the task
20:49
Then..._why not just do what I said_?
@RedwolfPrograms I don't understand
> Why not just make it scored per-language and per-flavor?
So if you use Python's regexes you're not competing with a custom regex flavor
because that's uninteresting
No, if someone makes up a stupid regex flavor for the challenge specifically, they get downvotes
This is exactly how we deal with languages doing the exact same thing
And it works fine. MGS isn't on every challenge.
but they might not get downvotes, because they've not broken the rules and they've been "clever" in their answer
@RedwolfPrograms because it's overused (and banned site-wide by default)
this is the first challenge in which this "loophole" would exist
20:52
@pxeger It's not "clever", and you can always say so in the question body ("all flavors are allowed and will not be competing with one another, but inventing trivial or cheaty flavors for this challenge is uninteresting and you'll be downvoted")
Restricting what languages can feasibly compete, over a nonexistant problem, seems stupid
Let's say your Roboto Mono challenge didn't require a minimum proportion of the characters to be recognised. I can just post an answer that "recognises" only the character a and therefore consists of print("a"). That defeats the point of the challenge, doesn't it?
Maybe I should state a minimum set of features?
@pxeger That's totally irrelevant
@pxeger sure, hence why the challenge includes a minimum proportion of characters???
@Adám I really don't think this should be a problem
@hyper-neutrino Hence why the challenge should include a restriction on the type of "regex"!!!
20:54
that's not a good argument
correction: that isn't arguing anything at all, really
Or I could say have to support at least the feature set of one of the flavours mentioned here?
also, if someone just did print("a"), i guarantee they would be heavily downvoted
(FWIW, I am not arguing that there shouldn't be a regex restriction, lol.)
@hyper-neutrino ok, but if the challenge was badly specified enough that that was possible, that's still a problem with the challenge, not (just) with the answer
@Adám I think it'd make things easier to just list a few common features that need to be supported, like *, (), |, [], etc.
@pxeger I disagree strongly with that
it's very difficult to close every single loophole that could possibly ever exist
20:57
@RedwolfPrograms All challenges here "allow" submitting a zero or one byte program in a custom language you make
That doesn't make them bad or poorly specified
We've just removed any incentive you'd have to do that
And allowing any regex flavor but not having them compete does that exact same thing. Everyone using Python will probably use Python's regexes. Everyone using Perl will probably use Perl's. But this way, you can use languages with less standard regex libraries without having to ask permission in comments or, worse, re-implement PCRE or something from scratch.
And if anyone were to abuse it, they've won nothing. Aside from a bunch of downvotes because it's a loophole.
@RedwolfPrograms the point of the challenge is basically not related to regexes at all, it's about manipulating the output ranges correctly, so it should be irrelevant what feature set the regex supports
Imagine a challenge "given a blackbox function, return some complicated manipulation on the results of various calls on the function", and then wanting to allow answers to restrict on what type of function you can assume f to be
If it's so irrelevant than why do you insist on limiting what flavors can be used?
@RedwolfPrograms and yet we still close the loopholes, don't we?!
@RedwolfPrograms false?
Why wouldn't that same loophole cover making up your own cheaty regex flavor then?
And if for some reason you wouldn't consider it to, why couldn't it just be linked to and the author say "this loophole applies here"
I think my question has angered the ccgc gods :(
21:07
Restricted complexity isn't interesting to a lot of people
It's not "angering" anyone, it's just not as interesting to many people and we've told you that and explained it like 17 times by now
If I can't make some horrible hyperfactorial-time abomination out of fifty combinatorics built-ins chained together, count me out :p
it's not a bad challenge, but restricted-complexity turns a lot of people away from it
@RedwolfPrograms true although I have had other much more popular questions
47
Q: Longest common substring in linear time

user9206This challenge is about writing code to solve the following problem. Given two strings A and B, your code should output the start and end indices of a substring of A with the following properties. The substring of A should also match some substring of B. There should be no longer substring of ...

by "someone else" :)
I did mention finding an efficient algorithm for this is interesting to think about, but I'm not generally a fan of restricted-complexity problems on code-golf because then the primary condition is still short code with added bells and whistles, whereas fastest-algorithm just makes being efficient the primary/sole condition which could be interesting
especially if O(L) is actually possible like Bubbler was hypothesizing
21:09
both awesome questions in my view :)
@Anush damn, that's probably one of the highest invalid answer ratios I've seen, lol
@RedwolfPrograms @pxeger Better?
@hyper-neutrino :) But a great question nonetheless
@hyper-neutrino yes. I wonder if I could pose a fastest-algorithm question later on
non-greedy qualifiers aren't very widely supported are they?
Same with backreferences
I'd think just requiring the "bare minimum" would be better
@RedwolfPrograms OCaml and XML Schema don't support those. Everything else does.
21:12
@RedwolfPrograms (e.g., *, |, (), ., ^/$ since most of the rest can be implemented with those)
another great restricted-complexity question codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/49418/…
@RedwolfPrograms RE2 and XML Schema don't.
@RedwolfPrograms Uh, normally I can make out what people's failed markdown means, but not this time.
maybe those were in the "good old days"
@Adám Those are still languages which you're blocking from being able to compete, in addition to any languages based on those, or using regex libraries which use those
Yeah, I'll remove those two reqs.
@RedwolfPrograms But plain capturing groups should be fine, right? E.g. (ab)+
@Adám Yeah, I think so
(ab)+ as in ab, abab, ababab... is definitely fine
I'll take out the anchors, as they lead to questions on what constitutes a block.
And I'll restrict input to a single line of printable ASCII.
(Why isn't [^] equivalent to .?)
It can match \n
No, I mean to ask why it isn't valid and more or less equivalent to .
Oh, that works in JS, but not in PCRE.
Oh huh
Maybe a parsing thing in PCRE?
21:21
(I'll stop now with the favorite restricted complexity questions :) )
TIL.
According to regex101 everyone Python, Go, and Java all agree with PCRE.
So...JS is...doing something reasonable when other languages aren't?
Did I...fall and hit my head? Get sent to a parallel universe? Mix up JS and another languages with the same initials?
Or put differently: When everyone else protests, JS finds a way to not error.
[^] is actually a pretty cool alternative to [\s\S], the traditional .-but-with-\n
You should suggest that on the JS tips page
Uh, OK.
21:25
I mean it wouldn't save anything in most cases since using the s flag would be shorter, but if you need . to exclude \n still, it could be handy
Like this?
Never thought I'd answer that Q.
@RedwolfPrograms @pxeger Better?
Yep! You might just generalize capturing groups to any usage of (), otherwise you wouldn't actually need to support | in groups using your current rules (something which should probably be required)
@RedwolfPrograms Huh, how is | useless without capturing groups?
21:33
No, I mean you could interpret it in a way where you don't need to support | in groups under your rules
Ah. OK, I've removed + from (ab)+
Wow, this person somehow found a way to get Infinity that's longer than typing Infinity: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/101606/79857
For regexes, | is very special in being infix. Any other infix things in regexes?
Not to my knowledge, actually
Never even thought about that
What if...tacit regexps
a|+b
🤯
@RedwolfPrograms That should totally mean (?:a)+|(?:b)+
21:37
That's actually useful, too
@RedwolfPrograms Well well, this one does much the same, writing 1E15 instead of ⌊/⍬
There ought to be a better regex than a(bc)?|(ab)?c
Enter tacit regexes: a(bc)|?(ab)c
In general, a|⎕b should apply the qualifier to a and b.
@Adám I'd actually think that would be parsed as a((bc)?|(ab)?)c though
Or maybe (a(bc))?|((ab)c)?
My PCRE won't eat it.
Oh, wait, you're not saying that works, you're saying the scope should be different.
Well, | has long left and right scope, afaict.
So yeah, (?:a(bc))?|(?:(ab)c)? makes most sense, but that's not really useful.
We could simply dictate that "qualified |" has short scopes for the qualifier.
21:43
Hmm. Maybe it could be special cased as a|?b being (a|b)??
@RedwolfPrograms That'd make a|b be radically different from a|⎕b
I don't like that.
a(bc)|?(ab)c is the only sensible interpretation, imho.
(a(bc))?|((ab)c)? can better be written as a(bc)|(ab)c|
a((bc)?|(ab)?)c can better be written as a(bc|ab|)c
21:59
@emanresuA You can also do a map 2.* because * is a method on 2 (and it's commutative so yay)
22:24
0
Q: Rediscovering a random numbers generator code I learned in batch code

Dylan MillsI had discovered a code on the internet that produced a number and could be tweaked easily to accommodate more or less numbers to generate from. The code was ridiculously simple and filled only one line, but the code was a miracle worker. I switched computers and lost the information and I can't ...

White your question is obviously off-topic here, maybe this can help? — Adám 3 mins ago
What if I want it green instead?
Green? Golfed?
I'm saying white is such a restricted colour and that there's no potential for creativity, that's all :p
(don't mind me, I'm just making jokes about accidental typos in comments and messages again)
White is the superset of all colours.
You don't like my dashed ells?
22:39
@Adám I'm just saying that a white canvas ain't as interesting as a canvas with colours arranged to depict Rick Astley
22:52
@PyGamer0 Still Python, but I think Scala may be second now.
@user Do you have some sixth sense for showing up whenever someone mentions Scala? :D
:)
My Scala detector went off :P
May 26 at 14:35, by user
My Scala detector beeped :P

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