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4:01 PM
(in other words, no)
 
how does one prove turing-completeness?
 
the easiest way is to implement an interpreter for a system already proved Turing-complete
 
i typically just implement brainfuck lol
 
I prefer fractan
 
I prefer C++98
 
4:10 PM
@pxeger A couple of issues. You need -script as a flag for the executable and don't put /ATO/code on the command line as it is being included in the pipe.
 
@WheatWizard Well, now we need a C++ 98 compiler, written in brainflak :P
 
I don't think a C++98 compiler proves you TC.
 
@Adám Is that the same, though? L=[1,2,3,3,2,1] and n=3 should output [1,2,3], if I understand the CMC correctly, whereas @hyper-neutrino's algorithm results in [2,3,3].
 
@AaronMiller Maybe implement rule 110?
 
@hyper-neutrino that's what I typically do too, but in this case I can't, since some features are missing. I'm coming up with a new language, and I'm curious if my current idea is turing complete.
 
4:11 PM
ah
isn't compiling c++ sometimes uncomputable or smth like that due to templates or whatever
 
Some good ideas to try to implement are Bitwise Cyclic Tag, ///, brainfuck, fractan, GoL or rule 110
 
@DLosc L=[1,2,3,3,2,1] and n=3 should give [2,3,3]
 
@Adám You have to be careful with rule 110. Most times people don't actually implement a TC version of it.
 
can something be turing complete if the only loops are ones that execute 3 times, but are nestable?
 
@AaronMiller recursion
 
4:12 PM
@Adám ok, temporarily changed on staging; does that work now?
 
I don't think it can recurse
 
@AaronMiller Is there any way to loop indefinitely?
 
> Dyalog APL could not initialise because the script file could not be opened.
Maybe we should take this to the ATO room?
 
Rule 110 has only been shown TC with a specific repeating background.
 
If not, then it won't be TC as you can prove the halting problem
 
4:13 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing not with the current spec, but it can still be changed
@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah, currently all programs halt
 
Then it's not TC
 
That's a good test, can you solve the halting problem? If the answer is yes, you know its not TC (but if the answer is no, it still might not be TC)
 
so it's a good way to prove non-TC
 
Fun fact whether Brain-Flak is TC without nested loops is equivalent to an unsolved problem in Mathematics called the Skolem problem.
 
4:15 PM
Yeah
Or a good first step in proving TCness :P
 
In mathematics, the Skolem problem is the problem of determining whether the values of a constant-recursive sequence include the number zero. The problem can be formulated for recurrences over different types of numbers, including integers, rational numbers, and algebraic numbers. It is not known whether there exists an algorithm that can solve this problem.A linear recurrence relation expresses the values of a sequence of numbers as a linear combination of earlier values; for instance, the Fibonacci numbers may be defined from the recurrence relation F(n) = F(n − 1) + F(n − 2)together with the...
 
I think I'm going to add recursion via something like if !(current_value) {restart_program()} No idea if that will bring it any closer to being TC, but it'll be fun.
 
You might need someway of passing arguments to the recursion
 
the memory tape will persist
 
@WheatWizard I was about to say "That sounds like it could be an answer to this challenge"... and then I saw who posted that challenge. ;)
 
4:26 PM
ooh, I've also just thought of a really clever way I could make the 3-loop execute more times. it would probably be easier to use if I added some sort of conditional that didn't just loop, though. :P
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing I mean, if Kamila Szewczyk can implement Lisp in Malbolge, anything's possible
 
true
 
@DLosc I've suggested to her that she make a Malbolge interpreter in MalbolgeLisp :P
Don't think she was a fan tho :(
 
just to give an idea of the language, it's called "Hello Hell". You can also call it "Hell, Oh hell" if you prefer :P
 
@DLosc Honestly, I would absolutely love for one of those answers to be proven TC or not :P
 
4:28 PM
@DLosc Oh actually there is a slight issue to it. I have only proven a slightly weaker fact. Skolem problem <=> Brain-Flak with no nested loops is undecidable. It is technically possible that the Skolem problem is true and it is undecidable but not TC. There are very few languages that are Undecidable but TC, however I haven't shown this can't be one of them.
 
4:41 PM
posted on September 13, 2021 by celtschk

Rational numbers in decimal representation can have an infinite periodic part. One common way to write this down is to repeat the periodic digits and then add three dots. Numbers without those t...

 
@BrowncatPrograms -1 byte: Roger Moore
 
I was going by height :p
 
Isn't Daniel Craig like 6'3?
 
Google said 5'10, but I don't know anything about any of these people and google is often wrong :p
 
Apparently, Woody Allen has played Bond, and he's 5'5 :P
 
4:45 PM
 
@BrowncatPrograms I can't believe Google can parse "shortest bond actor" into James Bond / Played by / Minimal / Height
these computer things are terrifying
 
It has to do with the semantic web I think
 
@pxeger yeah i would stay away from them if i were you...
 
@pxeger I wouldn't be so sure. GPT-3:
> "Shortest Bond actor:"

Robert Downey Jr. in Iron Man 2 (2010)
 
4:49 PM
lmao
 
is there a compact Python way to do for x in list if x<y: ?
maybe a filter function or similar?/
 
there is filter, but do you mean filter for less than some other value?
 
yes
I want it in a for loop ideally
 
[x for x in list if x<y] is probably the shortest. [*filter(lambda x:x<y,list)] is 28 vs 24 bytes
 
filter(y.__gt__,list)
 
4:54 PM
for x in filter(y.__gt__,list): ?
 
yes
 
very nice
 
According to GPT-3, Daniel Craig is 5' 11", Timothy Dalton is 6' 1", George Lazenby is 5' 7", Timothy Dalton is 5' 10", Roger Moore is 6' 1", Timothy Dalton is 6' 0", and Daniel Craig is 6' 2".
 
if you're already using a for loop, it might be shorter to do for x in list:\nif y>x:\n... or similar
 
@pxeger your filter trick looks cool though
 
4:56 PM
Style points are more important than golfing points
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

thesilicanLight-Cycle KotH koth Basically the light-cycle game as a KotH competition. The Game Players will write bots that compete in a light-cycle arena. A round of light-cycle starts with bots randomly spaced out along the edge of a (tentatively 10x20) rectangular play area: +--------------------+ | ...

 
TIL you can modify a list being looped on to extend the loop in Python: Try it online!
 
you can do horribly cursed things with loops
 
:) I like cursed things
 
5:06 PM
I can't use ATO while I'm at work because geolocation firewall blocking
 
._.
.—.
 
@AaronMiller for me its the other way around, i can't use tio, but can use ato
 
I can't use either D:
Or RTO
Or DSO, or any of the other ingredients in the alphabet soup
 
interesting. i wonder why that is
I've been trying to make a quine in Grok, but I'm having a hard time with it. I've just about got it, but I can't figure out any way to make a one-line print function that doesn't use left-right wrapping. I probably just have to go about the quine another way, but I don't really feel like it, so I'll just give 69 brownie points to whoever can.
This is as close as I've gotten. The string of w's is where the print thing would go.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:22 PM
0
A: Golf you a quine for great good!

Wheat WizardGrok, 91 bytes ``iI96PYWwIiWjw hlI10WI PYWYWYWYWYWYWYWYWYWYWYWYWYWIlWIYWIPWI!WI{WIkWq lYP!{k Try it Online! It is very costly to output anything in Grok. Shortening the second line would be a way to shorten this but I can't figure it out.

 
7:01 PM
@AaronMiller I use that in Charcoal, as it's handy for doing breadth-first traversal (e.g. I would enumerate pandigital numbers by traversing over numbers without repeated digits and then listing the pandigital ones at the end)
@lyxal Surely that means you can't prover you're over 12?
 
@WheatWizard Wow, nice! Out of curiosity, what did you think of the language?
 
0
A: "Hello, World!"

Bot_01GotoOutput, 33 bytes Goto Hello,\_World! Hello,\_World! A less trivial solution which demonstrates the language's intended control flow would be: Assign g o Goto H H Goto e e Goto l l If l GotoFrom g \_ l Goto l o If o Goto r \_ o Goto , , Goto \_ \_ Goto W W Assign g d Goto o r Goto l...

 
Somewhat odd. Some weird gaps in the command set.Very hard to output things.
 
The point of the language was for the commands to be reminiscent of Vim commands, so there were some things that I left out, but I personally find that juggling values around in the stack and register is pretty fun. What do you mean about outputting being difficult, though?
 
@Hello,World! If someone finds a quine in that language I'll be impressed :p
Since we're discussing quines in languages with difficult means of outputting
Not much documentation though
 
7:24 PM
@Neil (undefined < 13) == false Therefore Lyxal is at least 13.
 
7:37 PM
We're approaching Chrome 100. Maybe they'll announce that JS was actually a big joke and they're switching to something reasonable.
I swear most of the sections of the JS spec had a "you know, it'd be hilarious if..." prepended that got removed in editing
4
 
Time to see how many Chrome components Y2K themselves.
 
@BrowncatPrograms You assume there was a spec. :P
They just coded whatever came to mind.
 
@AaronMiller There is a spec though :p
Chrome didn't invent JS
 
JS spontaneously came into existence alongside the Big Bang, didn't you know that? :P
 
Running a JS program caused the big bang, that's why the universe is so confusing
 
7:42 PM
On the eighth day He said "let there be JS", and it was
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing The simulation we live in was programmed in JS
 
@AaronMiller is it using a library
 
No, libraries are for weaklings
Actually it probably uses React
 
it uses JSFuck
I just realized two interesting things: (1) I am only 30 days away from Fanatic, and (B) I released Grok the day before my birthday.
 
@Wansen Oh, ok.
 
7:59 PM
> Great repository names are short and memorable. Need inspiration? How about cuddly-meme?
 
Lyxal rules the starboard
@AaronMiller No, I don't need "inspiration", Github.
Bye
 
goodbye folks
 
8:36 PM
At our current rate, we're just three weeks away from 30k stars
 
9:10 PM
@AaronMiller Huh. I always heard it was Perl...
 
 
2 hours later…
10:45 PM
@DLosc Well, it was meant to be in Lisp, but even God couldn't help himself from a little Perl golf :P
@lyxal Wait how?
(although afaict you sent that at approx 4 am, my time)
 
11:28 PM
@BrowncatPrograms On the eighth day? I figured it'd be made on the -1th day to let God create frameworks on the 0th day and the rest of the world during the subsequent 7 days
 
Well ya see for trademark reasons God had to call it "JScript"
 
...who was threatening to sue God?
 
He destroyed them with a flood that lasted forty days and forty nights, don't worry
 
Hmm, sounds like a conflict of interest to me, d'you think I should try suing God over that?
 
You're not allowed to, He doesn't have a valid address in the US
There's legal precedent
 
11:30 PM
@user browser extension
 
But how does it work? Do you have a link to it?
 
It's a parasite that lives in our brains
 
Oh, I thought that was you
 
> not necessarily having 7 slots
Do you travel between planets or what? :P
 
11:37 PM
CMQ: If you have a two byte program or function with one monad and one nilad, there are two ways it could be ordered/parsed (monad first or nilad first). One meaning is obvious (apply the monad to the nilad), but are there any other reasonable interpretations?
I'm thinking something along the lines of "an array containing the nilad and the monad applied to an input"
 
@user Well, mine just doesn't have day-of-week labels
 
@BrowncatPrograms Repeatedly apply monad to nilad until cycle is formed/until fixed point is reached/infinitely. You can choose whether to collect intermediate results
 
thanks bubbler, that reminded me I need to take my pills :P
 
@user Hmm. How often is that useful though, and how many common monads actually produce cycles?
 
Ironically I often forget to take my own pills :P
 
11:40 PM
That explains a lot
(jk :p)
 
I just started on a new one and have forgotten a lot, good thing it's only for some random unimportant organ called the 'heart'
 
@Bubbler Ah, did you forget to take the pill to turn you back into a Bubbler? Because you're still a cat :(
@BrowncatPrograms Fixedpoint is quite useful, as is infinity. I admit cycles are less common, though
@rak1507 I know many heartless people, if they can survive like that, so can you!
Sep 2 at 0:01, by user
I’m a spineless, gutless, heartless piece of scum according to some:p
You can even sell some of your organs to organ harvesters to get rich while you're at it ;)
 
sounds like a plan, anyone want a spleen? :P
 
@user idk how it works
 
What's the name? I kinda wanna take a look at it
 
11:43 PM
@rak1507 Only if it's organic and free range :P
Do you get plenty of space to run around?
 
well in theory I could go outside...
 
Can't be too organic with rak's medication :P
 
@user I forgor 💀
 
@rak1507 Or you could raise philosophical questions about the meaning of "outside" and ultimately conclude you're already free range
@lyxal You forgor 💀
 
@user yeah, those antibiotics won't go down well with the organics crowd
 
11:45 PM
On the other hand, they're organic people, so I guess they'll take any organs they can get ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
@user actually, I rember 😃
 
And if that is the case, y'all can have my brain, it's mostly useless anyway
@lyxal Ooh, this has so many goodies!
 
@rak1507 mm how much?
 
not sure what the going market rate of a spleen is so if you make me an offer I'll consider it
you'll need to pay for postage of course
 
And can I pay in monopoly money?
@rak1507 $6900 in monopoly money
 
11:47 PM
@user No thanks, I don't want any intrusive thoughts about using Scala :P
 
I'll offer to buy the spleen, but it depends on who made it. Could you tell me their maiden name? Also, I don't want any disgusting creatures near that spleen, so do you have any pets? (and what are their names?)
 
deal :P
@user lol
 
@rak1507 a pleasure doing business with you!
I'll wire you the money next time you pass Go
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh don't worry, I can remove the Scala obsession implants before selling it to you
@lyxal Why not give rak a Get Out of Jail Free card? Looks like they'll be needing it soon :P
 
Is it illegal to sell your own spleen?
 
11:50 PM
Only if you get caught :p
 
That applies to everything though
 
@rak1507 idk, when I cut off my ears and gifted them to the people sitting next to me, I got thrown in jail for a while. Doesn't make sense to me but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
@rak1507 look, it'll be fine. My guys are experts at keeping black market deals on the downlow
Your transaction will go completely unnoticed by the relevant authorities :p
 
Dang guys, why no feedback :/
 
pill box description seems a bit complicated (also why can the order change, that isn't how time works!) but it's a fairly complicated challenge so not sure how it can improve
flow free seems fine at first glance
k projections is also fine (seems maybe a little bit basic though, it's basically merging a few lists and then formatting)
 

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