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19:04
> Advantages of Code-golf
>
> - learn your language properly! (built-ins FTW!)
> - focus on optimization [less is more!]
> - encourages creativity
> - continuous learning
>
> Disadvantages of Code-golf
>
> - hard to read and understand code
> - often sub-par code from a performance point of view
> - hard to maintain and modify code
>
> Conclusion
>
> - treat it as a learning experience
> - learn to improve your real-world code
????
> often sub-par code from a performance point of view
...Yeah
@pxeger Why the ???, that seems very reasonable to me
I agree with most of it
but... it's a game?? why would you write a evaluation with dis/advantages of a game??
Code Golf is no game, it is a way of life.
> learn to improve your real-world code
i mean, quite indirectly, maybe
19:14
not really that indirect, code golf forces you to learn aspects of a language more in depth
I'm so confused how M uses sympy numbers, it seems to only cast to them once, then everything else casts to int :(
I've decided to download the entire Linux kernel repo as a compression benchmark. I don't really know what I was expecting, but it's very big
about 5GB
Why...why does assist-software.net/blog/introduction-code-golf need to explain what a natural language is?
Nobody here golfs in French
Or English
Or Russian
jspdça
19:18
I had a recent answer that looked like it spelt "croissant" if you squinted
Aren't there esolangs based on Korean and Gaelic and stuff?
jpxgolfernfrçésijvx
I need to make an esolang called francais
I suspect that wasn't as clear as it was in my head. It said; je peux golfer (?) en français si je veux
@pxeger You need to use the subjunctive, right?
19:20
non, je crois que non au moins?
oui baguette
ahonhonhon je suis une american et je peux parler la fransays honhonhon
@ChartZBelatedly Je crois que c'est une bonne idee! CROISSANT
@pxeger The honhonhon nearly made me spit out what I was drinking
19:21
@Anush No, my understanding of the maths behind this question isn't good enough. But, if J42161217's answer is valid, then so is mine — ChartZ Belatedly 6 mins ago
j'ai oublie/ comment parler franc5ais
When you understand how the maths, but not why the maths :P
@ChartZBelatedly Quand on ne comprend pas francais ou pourquoi francais :(
@HyperNeutrino tu n'as pas de clef de Compose?
Wir sollen Deutsch sprechen :P
19:23
@ChartZBelatedly Ich bin brot
salvete amici
schnell schnell kartoffel
not sure what my keyboard layout is called, but no i don't think i have a compose
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI CÇPT (FTFY): Quand on ne comprend ni le francais ni pourquoi francais :(
19:23
@rak1507 Mind your language
Yo solo hablo español (y solo un poco) :(
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI lol
@RedwolfPrograms No hablo castellano :(
19:23
no one here speaks latin?
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI corrigé ça pour toi (fixed that for you)
@RedwolfPrograms Spanish isn't as popular in Europe as American (as a second language) :P
चला मराठी बोलूया
@pxeger Ah, merci. Voudriez-vous un croissant?
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI what golflang is this?
non il n'est plus le temps du petit-déjeuner
19:25
@rak1507 C'est pas un golflang, c'est Marathi.
你们讲中文吗?
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI I was kidding
لا
нет
19:26
At some point nobody here will be speaking the same language and it'll be Viossa all over again :p
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI I knew it wasn't a golf lang
@pxeger No
@rak1507 Quoi?
@RedwolfPrograms Qu'est-ce que c'est «Viossa»?
je ne parle pas francais, je suis desole
It's an experimental pidgin language
Could we stop with the non-english please?
It was funny to start with, now it's just annoying
19:27
@ChartZBelatedly नाही.
@ChartZBelatedly Está bien
fine
Apparently more people speak French than I thought :p
@RedwolfPrograms You thought <3 people spoke French?
It's taught as the main foreign language in most[citation needed] schools in the UK
But I do actually speak it to a fair standard
19:29
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Well, in a sample of 6 people yeah :p
Also India and a bunch of other places
I took it for a few years, but I never really got any good and I don't do it anymore
ironically I can't remember how to say 'I can't remember' in french
I should have taken Spanish, it's a whole lot more useful (in the US)
@rak1507 J'ai oublie aussi :(
I can't remember - je ne me souviens pas
(j'ai oublié would be more idiomatic - I've forgotten)
ahh yeah oublier, learnt that one because I knew it'd be useful for my speaking tests
19:30
Hey, can someone invent a time machine and help tell me what on earth Dennis was thinking when he wrote M?
@ChartZBelatedly "I should name this language M"
The proposal to allow OSP is already at +8/-0, looks like it's going to be allowed in TNB soon
The rational/non-rational type casting is all over the place, and hidden behind weird functions :(
why are most golfing languages so poorly written and documented?
Yay (for OSP, not for M being poorly written)
19:31
@pxeger Jelly isn't, which I have to conclude is because Dennis had practice with M first :p
@ChartZBelatedly Any precedent on how long to wait or how many votes to wait for before OSP gets moved over?
the Math version of Jelly should've been called Marmelade
@ChartZBelatedly The decompression function was famously called sss. That doesn't sound very idiomatic to me
@RedwolfPrograms Ask HN, as a mod he's got more say over it than I do
i should discuss with the other mods first
and the other ROs before i dec- oh wait
19:33
Speaking of... :P
Can we just have more ROs?
There's enough votes, right?
Apparently there's one downvote :\
wish whoever downvoted that gave an explanation
can we just do it already?
I think we should have an election first to decide
And I;ve said before, I'm happy to start that if and when the mods say it's ok
Will the election just be a meta question where candidates answer, then the answers are voted on?
well to decide who obviously, but I think it's pretty clear that is going to happen in some way or another
19:37
How many ROs do y'all think we'll need?
Maybe 2 or 3 more?
4 or 5 would do nicely, I can't see us needing more than that
4 seems like a nice even number
I think it should be however many are willing to do it and don't get voted out by the community
So more than 1 and less than 6 :P
19:38
somewhere between 1 and the number of users on this site
I support that :P
Very strong bounds there
i'd support an election for new ROs, i see no harm in having more, so unless someone else opposes i think we can just make a meta post nominating some candidates and decide to go forth from there
I still think we should take "community moderation" literally and make everyone a mod and RO
galaxybrain
19:40
@RedwolfPrograms Everyone seems a bit much, but more seems like a good idea
anyone over 20k rep should get it automatically, why not
More seriously speaking, I think it should just be anyone with 10k+ rep who doesn't actively oppose being made one for some reason
@HyperNeutrino I'll be happy to write a nomination post up then?
@pxeger ya, agreed
(plus me of course!)
19:41
@pxeger Except for the fact that SE has a limit on number of ROs, I agree :P
@pxeger ---abc--- is abc
@pxeger Just say anyone with 3,174 or more rep :P
I can't imagine life without my userscript to fix the monospace font on chat
It's so much nicer
totally agreed
Oh man, Peter Kagey's new challenge is insane :P
19:43
what on earth o.O
this challenge is so cool
i have no idea how on earth i'd approach it though xD
wow, good luck with that one golf langs
I fully understand it, but no idea how to do it :P
wait hold on
can the circles only be placed at lattice points
ah they can. okay this makes it a LOT easier
by which i mean it goes from near impossible to still really hard :P
Yeah, he's already ruled out a brute-force approach :(
wait how so
19:45
whoa, that's such a cool challenge
Wait, no. I read the last sentence as "must complete within a reasonable time"
such a great animation too
You know its a good challenge when it has gifs :P
clearly puts a lot of effort into his challenges
+6 in 6 minutes is wild
It hasn't even been posted in here yet :P
19:47
well it helps that you mentioned it
that has the same effect as the bot posting it
I'm basically NMP :P
honestly we might as well extend OSP and just make it an improved feeds bot that's faster than feeds
would that be viable
feeds can take unreasonably long sometimes :P
Kill the feed, I'll just post challenges in here when I see them :P
@HyperNeutrino I wouldn't even extend OSP, I'd make a new one
19:48
I was actually working on a userscript that worked like the feeds but instantly and only notified me
Who'll take the night shift?
My dog, duh :P
3
i'm up until 5am my time usually
WHY?
19:49
4am isn't too unusual for me, but I'm not useable at that time :P
I'll never understand people who stay up till minus nine in the morning
I rarely sleep before midnight
That's not healthy
I just can't get to sleep before then, even if I've had the most tiring day ever
i'm either pretty tired at like 12 am and then sleep or i go to bed at 5am because i know i'll regret being up later
19:50
Healthy sleep schedules and code golf are incompatible life styles
I once woke up at 7am, skiied for a solid 8 hours, went out to apres until 11pm, and was wide awake until 2am
Some of my friends and colleagues are like this, and then they wonder why they have issues concentrating and need naps all the time
My body hates and loves sleep :P
@RedwolfPrograms Okay, but what do you care about more? Something unimportant like your help, or writingly insanely short answers?
look i'm just a really unproductive person and have a terrible lifestyle and procrastinate a lot for legal reasons i strongly advise considering me as a warning for why you should develop healthy habits and never stay up a few times thinking "you'll be fine, it's just this once"
19:51
Short answers
@ChartZBelatedly Well of course, who cares more about their health than code golf?
Eventually it should shift so far from normal it wraps back around to healthy
Amateurs, that's who :P
the Maryland Effect
@RedwolfPrograms This :P
19:52
I'd lose a day somewhere along, though
thing is it wouldn't be a problem if i woke up later as well
@pxeger I can't nap :(
i usually get up around like 9-10
Just tell your brain you're in the wrong timezone
My body literally does not want me to sleep, even when I have a proper sleep schedule
19:52
@ChartZBelatedly me neither, because I sleep like a healthy person
i took a 15 minute nap once in the past week and that's like the only time i've taken a nap since like a month ago
even if i try i don't fall asleep even if i slept for like 4 hours the night before
I can't remain asleep after like 7 am, for some reason
me neither, I have an unending urge to be productive (which I am then of course not, but it feels better than lying in bed)
I wish I could just take a pill to feel unsleepy
The worst thing is when I can't sleep, so I check CGCC on my phone and see a challenge I think I can do :/
19:54
You can, but it's illegal
something less life destroying maybe
@ChartZBelatedly Uh, maybe a little stronger than that :P
i would sleep a lot longer if my parents didn't wake me up (i see no real problem with sleeping late and waking late, except for when i start my co-op work term) but since they do, once i actually get up i don't feel tired again even if i was really tired when i got up
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Cocaine?
19:54
@ChartZBelatedly That's more like it
"Hi yeah, could I get a mocha frappucino with an extra shot of cocaine?"
That'd keep you up for days :P
Back in the day, they put coke in your Coke. Now those were good times
tar: Cowardly refusing to create an empty archive haha scaredy cat tar
@pxeger Cowardly? How does that happen?
Updated my chat monospace fix userscript, it's now in my userscripts repo (it's been renamed so you'll have to delete the old one)
Added support for code blocks
And made it work on all chats
7
Q: Placing circles along a square spiral

Peter KageyIn this code golf challenge, you'll be computing the placement of circles of areas \$\pi, 2\pi, 3\pi, \dots\$ when greedily placed along integer points in a square spiral in such a way that no two overlap. A square spiral is a sequence in \$\mathbb Z^2\$ that starts at \$(0,0)\$ and successively ...

Wow, that took a long time
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI if you run tar -c with no arguments, it will fail because it has nothing to put in the archive
It should just put the user's password in it to make them be careful
20:03
Wow, tar | zstd --ultra -22 is bottlenecked largely by tar
Yeah, tar is sticky and slow flowing so it's hard to get out of bottles
ah here comes the CPU overload
If I suddenly disapperar from chat you know why lol
maybe I should nice firefox down a bit
type(foo) == bar :(
use isinstance
I'm just adapting the original Jelly source code :P
20:11
fair enough
And the two are not the same
isinstance picks up subclasses too which is probably better
IIRC isinstance(sympy_int, int) is True but (type(sympy_int) == int) is False
makes sense
use is rather than == if you need to not detect subclasses
20:29
@ChartZBelatedly ooh, nice
20:41
I need someone to post something I can FGITW, I'm 3 upvotes away from the gold badge :P
Got Jelly TIO open, the docs at my side and my Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V buttons are fine tuned :P
Just find an old challenge, I'll upvote it (if it's good, of course :P)
Ooh, I should find one eligible for your bounty :P
@ChartZBelatedly Go ahead, I'm recharging my rep using Bubbler's Factor bounty :P
This seems like some kind of pyramid scheme, bountying Bubbler to bounty others :P
@ChartZBelatedly Shhh!!! :P
Think of it more like trickle-down economics, except gravity's messed up and the water just goes wherever :)
20:48
> recharging my rep using a bounty
this is an interesting way to think about it :P
Would refuelling be better?
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI So trickle-down economics?
nah, stick with recharging. electricity > fuel, it's the era of clean energy :P (that is, assuming the electricity is renewably generated)
trickle down economics, pyramid scheme, close enough :P
@ChartZBelatedly :P (or rather, :\)
) Here, you dropped this :P
20:49
@HyperNeutrino A lot of Bubbler's rep came from Adam, which came from ???
@ChartZBelatedly Forgot to escape the backslash
just like how the sun outputs energy constantly without cost (effectively to us, at least), upvotes generate reputation at no cost
making people who receive reputation mostly via upvotes Producers
Bubbler is an example of an omnivore, receiving both upvotes and Adam's bounties
And then they get eaten by consumers?
@HyperNeutrino Bubbler ate Adám?!
I don't think I like this analogy.
so that's why kirby is his profile picture!
20:51
well let's say it's more like eating the apple off of a tree
ha wait
Or even, an apl
the APL off of a tree
dammit you were faster
Ninja'd :P
hey and even better
adam's apl?
20:52
just like how a tree offers nutrition to an animal and the animal spreads the apple seeds to grow more trees
bubbler receives bounties and rep from adam and uses APL, spreading its reach and popularizing it, which helps adam in return
so bubbler (omnivore) benefits from the fruits (rep, apple) of adam (producer)'s labor (golfing, growing) and helps adam in return (spreading APL, growing more apple trees)
3
21:05
Any feedback for Reverse Zip Bomb? Probably posting in a day or two.
'specify a common compression algorithm such as gzip (general purpose) or PNG (not general purpose but still compression). ' this should be defined properly
what is 'common'?
even though you've put the wikipedia thing, not sure that's precise enough, the winner will probably use some obscure thing
21:21
@ChartZBelatedly I know, the leap year calculation should of course be y=>y%(y%25<1?16:4)<1.
Morning everyone!
I need to stop trying to do challenges in Jelly ಠ_ಠ
They're very hard
I did big brain jelly last night: I thought a 2 byte constant was 2 separate atoms so I used last 4 links as monad instead of last 3
Now laugh at my silliness
21:37
i've miscounted quicks as atoms when doing the last N as monad before :P
Like I know it's a single digraph but when counting the atoms mentally I misparsed it lol
@Lyxal haha! you fool!
@rak1507 yes
That is the point
that's what you get for using jelly
filthy golflang-er
That's not very quick of you
21:43
@HyperNeutrino That's nothing, try figuring out if that nilad at the start of the chain makes it count as 3 links or 4 :P
I have to admit, I spent far too long wondering why the folks over on Cycling.SE were asking about Jelly before clicking onto the question
lmao
@ChartZBelatedly quick link, mounting a chain... Sounds like code golf to me
:p
Jelly = a bike
It's fact now :P
We shall ride jelly to victory! :p
22:20
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI For this, I'm guessing answers don't count?
22:53
nooo they're offline for maintenance
Okay, time to do some real job
No, it's back already
@ChartZBelatedly No, I should probably clarify that
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI If you add -[tips] into the search query, it'll exclude them :)
@ChartZBelatedly Ah, nice
Actually, I feel like those answers should be rewarded too
They just need different criteria
I'll fix it when I get back
23:21
@Lyxal No offense, but “Ha! Idiot! Can’t even read Jelly!”
@Deadcode Are you editing all your answers?
And would you mind waiting a bit before editing any more, so that you don't flood the front page any further, and let it calm down a bit?
23:36
@ChartZBelatedly I figured it was best to get it out of the way, sorry if it caused any inconvenience.
I actually have 5 more to edit, but the site won't let me do it until tomorrow. I reached the limit of 30.
@Deadcode In the future, it's best to spread edits out over a couple of hours (especially that number). If you take a look at the Active page, it's almost all your edits for a while
@ChartZBelatedly My thinking was that spreading it out could actually be more annoying.
Anybody else agree? That I should spread it out if I need to do this in the future? (Which I probably will – I plan on compiling my regex engine in Emscripten and giving it a web interface, and then I'll be able to do try-online links for ECMAScript+(?*) etc.)
@Deadcode it's mainly that if you mass-edit all at once, it pushes active posts quite far down the page, making them harder to find until someone bumps them up again. If someone had posted a challenge right before you'd started editing, it'd now be half way down the front page, rather than in the top 3 or 4 if you'd spread them out a bit
I don't want to come across as angry, we've all done an editing spree before :) Just wanted to let you know
@ChartZBelatedly Okay.
@Bubbler That bug seems to have started immediately after the scheduled maintenance
23:46
@ChartZBelatedly Yeah. But the weird thing is that other sites I've checked are working correctly
Um
There was no scheduled maintenance today
This was the last one, and they typically let people know if it goes longer than planned
Huh. what
I've asked in the Tavern about it, weird
1
Q: Featured on Meta is not showing [featured] meta articles

BubblerIf you go to Code Golf SE main, the only post that is listed on Featured on Meta is the one featured on Mother Meta. But the site actually has two more featured posts on its own meta. They were showing correctly in the said list before the brief maintenance today. Tried to check if it has hit oth...


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