The Nineteenth Byte

quartata

21:00

I didn't actually create it to pretend to be you. I'll delete the answer and the bio though if you want.

Done

TheDoctor

??

quartata

I made an alt with the name Thatha since that is what the disapproval face translates into with Google Translate

Alex A.

What are you going to do with that account now?

quartata

It is supposed to be for if Conor and I ever get the chat bot working. We'll plant it in its own room.

Optimizer

Better idea - claim to be Alex's sock

Alex A.

21:05

@Optimizer ಠ______________ಠ

quartata

After I created it I decided to do the Julia thing just for kicks. I didn't realize people actually made socks just for the purpose of harassing you

I wouldn't have done that otherwise

@AlexA. It won't be in the Nineteenth Byte

undergroundmonorail

@aditsu Q: How did the three wise men find the baby Jesus? A: A*

15

quartata

@undergroundmonorail wat

Alex A.

^

El'endia Starman

@undergroundmonorail +1! :P

Doorknob

21:07

@quartata a star

El'endia Starman

@quartata @AlexA. a-ninja'd.

quartata

@Doorknob Oh...

undergroundmonorail

@quartata it's a programming joke about jesus but not the phrase "jesus saves"

Alex A.

I don't get it.

quartata

I get it now.

Doorknob

21:07

Anyway... now might be a good time to mention to @ಠ_ಠ that impersonation of another user is against network-wide policy on Stack Exchange and can be grounds for suspension. Just sayin'.

Optimizer

I don't get it either

undergroundmonorail

A* is the name of a search algorithm

Alex A.

In @ಠ_ಠ's defense though, they have clearly stated that they are not affiliated with me.

undergroundmonorail

and the wise men followed a star to find the birthplace of jesus in the bible

quartata

A* search algorithm

In computer science, A* (pronounced as "A star" ( listen)) is a computer algorithm that is widely used in pathfinding and graph traversal, the process of plotting an efficiently traversable path between multiple points, called nodes. Noted for its performance and accuracy, it enjoys widespread use. However, in practical travel-routing systems, it is generally outperformed by algorithms which can pre-process the graph to attain better performance, although other work has found A* to be superior to other approaches. Peter Hart, Nils Nilsson and Bertram Raphael of Stanford Research Institute (now...

Alex A.

21:08

( listen)

El'endia Starman

Oooh cool visualization!

quartata

Shiny

Alex A.

@undergroundmonorail Couldn't they have just texted Jesus' mom to get directions to the hospital?

El'endia Starman

She was in a cave!

No cell reception.

quartata

@El'endiaStarman Yeah. Probably couldn't get any reception.

Wow ninja'd so hard I'm just going to cry

El'endia Starman

21:09

AH HAHAHA! :P

Doorknob

Alex A.

Ninja only blinks when you do

5

undergroundmonorail

ninja'd so hard it feels like you're participating in the upcoming splatfest

haha, video games

Alex A.

Video games are a myth.

undergroundmonorail

imagine i just snapped my fingers on both my hands and made them into finger guns because that's how i feel rn

Alex A.

21:12

rn = registered nurse?

undergroundmonorail

neither of those words begin with M

Alex A.

Probably good to tend to your broken fingers

quartata

@undergroundmonorail Faster finger gun in the west.

Alex A.

World Big Finger

undergroundmonorail

haha, keming jokes

quartata

21:12

@AlexA. I think he meant right now, but it could be that too

El'endia Starman

@undergroundmonorail Haha.

Alex A.

I think El'endia is telling you to golf out the space between the "ha"s.

undergroundmonorail

done

quartata

@AlexA. Very suboptimal.

ಠ_ಠ

@Doorknob How about the opposite: Claiming to be not someone when in fact you are this exact person?

Doorknob

21:14

I... what?

Alex A.

^

TheDoctor

@ಠ_ಠ hi

Alex A.

@The Dude in the Doge Suit: Hi.

El'endia Starman

Has there been a challenge on Hausdorff encoding? I spelled "Hausdorff" wrong but I don't know how to spell it right. The one where you use the least bits for the most frequent characters.

ಠ_ಠ

@AlexA. Thanks, Internet high 5!

undergroundmonorail

21:14

English - 19 18 bytes thanks @El'endiaStarman for saving one byte

Alex A.

o/

Doorknob

@El'endiaStarman Huffman encoding?

quartata

@ಠ_ಠ I golfed down the disapproval face generator, maybe you wanna try it online?

El'endia Starman

@Doorknob Yes!

undergroundmonorail

that took so long to type it's not funny any more

quartata

21:15

@undergroundmonorail ?

oic

El'endia Starman

@undergroundmonorail Well, I liked it.

undergroundmonorail

<3

ಠ_ಠ

@quartata Thanks, I'm gonna update my profile!

quartata

It's 12 bytes instead of 13

TheDoctor

@quartata i accidentally typed 4 million

undergroundmonorail

21:16

me

quartata

he he

Can you put code formatting inside links?

Hmm

TheDoctor

quartata

test

Yeah you can

Alex A.

I could have told you that but my fingers are stupid

quartata

'_ri*'ಠ_@\

@ಠ_ಠ surround the code in the link with double backticks so that it looks right

Alex A.

21:19

ಠ_@ disapproving pirate

ಠ_ಠ

@AlexA. Perhaps the covered eye approves.

El'endia Starman

"_ಠ"nD0c(O). is the Minkolang solution. Can't do it in either interpreter right now because it doesn't yet support outputting ಠ. Gonna fix that now.

quartata

The fact that you got that wrong means you aren't Alex.

Confirmed.

El'endia Starman

Only two bytes longer than CJam!

quartata

@El'endiaStarman Really?

Wow

TheDoctor

21:21

john c calhoun is a scary man

El'endia Starman

If I had (O). built in like H in Sp3000's Gol><>, it'd be one byte shorter!

ಠ_ಠ

It sounds as if we should make an official challenge out of this.

Alex A.

Oh dood this algorithm is O(O).

quartata

@ಠ_ಠ I thought about it.

It might be too easy though.

I do have a new catalog to do though. Truth machines: esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine

ಠ_ಠ

But I think it is certainly more complex than:

121

Q: "Hello, World!"

So... uh... this is a bit embarrassing. But we don't have a plain "Hello, World!" challenge yet (despite having 35 variants tagged with hello-world, and counting). While this is not the most interesting code golf in the common languages, finding the shortest solution in certain esolangs can be a ...

El'endia Starman

21:26

@quartata n2&N.1N

quartata

Wow that's short.

Minkolang is impressive

El'endia Starman

This actually exploits the fact that reading in an integer from empty input is -1, and therefore truthy...

Alex A.

-1 is truthy?

El'endia Starman

mmhmm

undergroundmonorail

@ಠ_ಠ sure but hello world is a classic

quartata

21:28

Sadly Minkolang is too complicated for my tiny brain

El'endia Starman

@quartata It's less complicated than your new language! </retort>

quartata

@El'endiaStarman My new language doesn't involve time

El'endia Starman

Time is not a factor here. :P

Time is only important when there are multiple layers, separated by $$$.

ಠ_ಠ

@El'endiaStarman =D

TheDoctor

Oh for crying out loud. Is there anything that isn't an esolang at this point? :) — TimmyD Aug 28 at 14:22

quartata

21:31

@TheDoctor You think Minkolang is strange?

Try Chicken.

TheDoctor

all of them

APL

evil

BF

quartata

APL is actually not an esolang.

flawr

You mean we should rename PPCG to EsolangGolf ?

undergroundmonorail

next think of an esolang that starts with c

keep it going

quartata

APL (programming language)

APL (named after the book A Programming Language) is a programming language developed in the 1960s by Kenneth E. Iverson. Its central datatype is the multidimensional array. It uses a large range of special graphic symbols to represent most operators, leading to very concise code. It has been an important influence on the development of concept modeling, spreadsheets, functional programming, and computer math packages. It has also inspired several other programming languages. It is still used today for certain applications. == HistoryEdit == The mathematical notation for manipulating arrays which...

@undergroundmonorail Chicken

CJam

flawr

21:32

c-- (I do not even know, but I suspect that there is a language called c--=)

TheDoctor

c#

Alex A.

no

TheDoctor

c-flat

undergroundmonorail

@flawr you would be correct

quartata

@flawr there is

It's not really that weird

undergroundmonorail

21:33

flawr

@TheDoctor You mean b#?

quartata

C--

C-- (pronounced "see minus minus") is a C-like programming language. Its creators, functional programming researchers Simon Peyton Jones and Norman Ramsey, designed it to be generated mainly by compilers for very high-level languages rather than written by human programmers. Unlike many other intermediate languages, its representation is plain ASCII text, not bytecode or another binary format. == DesignEdit == C-- is a "portable assembly language", designed to ease the task of implementing a compiler which produces high quality machine code. This is done by having the compiler generate C-- code...

El'endia Starman

['ï', '»', '¿', '"', '_', 'à', '²', '\xa0', '"', 'n', 'D', '0', 'c', '(', 'O', ')', '.']

undergroundmonorail

i agree

El'endia Starman

That's the internal representation of the disapproval face program in Minkolang's Python interpreter.

No wonder it didn't work.

quartata

21:37

lol

@undergroundmonorail What do you mean "you agree?" How did you know that was the disapproval face before he said that? This can only mean one thing...

YOU'RE WRITTEN IN PYTHON

undergroundmonorail

i just like to say "i agree" to things that aren't opinions because i have a bad sense of humour

you're correct though i am written in python

quartata

@undergroundmonorail I KNEW IT

undergroundmonorail

The man who hunts ducks out on weekends.

i love garden path sentences

VTCAKAVSMoACE

@undergroundmonorail You haven't come up with any shorter BF codes yet, right? Right...?

El'endia Starman

I often use this example: "The horse raced past the barn fell."

undergroundmonorail

21:45

@VTCAKAVSMoACE not yet ;) ;) ;)

@El'endiaStarman it's a good example but i don't use it much because even though it is grammatically correct it's awkward imo

Thomas Kwa

@AlexA. I was going to post it and then delete it, but then I started golfing and forgot.

El'endia Starman

@undergroundmonorail I'm not even fully sure I understand your example.

Thomas Kwa

I don't have a Dyalog APL interpreter, and input doesn't work on tryapl

undergroundmonorail

the idea is that you read it as "the man who hunts ducks" and then get confused by the rest, so you back up and it becomes "(the man who hunts) ducks out on weekends"

ducks is a verb

El'endia Starman

OH.

I was stuck on "ducks" being a noun...

Alex A.

21:48

@ThomasKwa Yeah, TryAPL doesn't have input. Have you tried GNU APL or ngn/apl?

Sp3000

I like my time flies. Mmmm time flies.

Alex A.

...

El'endia Starman

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

Sp3000

^^ :)

Thomas Kwa

ngn/apl has index origin = 0

ಠ_ಠ

21:57

Doorknob

@ಠ_ಠ

El'endia Starman

@ಠ_ಠ @ಠ_ಠ

> 17:45 US Eastern Daylight TimeWe are currently experiencing a single fileserver outage. Some repositories may be temporarily unavailable.

My Minkolang repository is one of those... :(

Alex A.

o no

quartata

@El'endiaStarman rip

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@El'endiaStarman I saw that ;-;

El'endia Starman

22:11

Wait, you were looking at Minkolang?!

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Yeah! I was interested in it.

El'endia Starman

:D

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ This is mostly an exact copy of the readme.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Me having made my own language, I wanted to see what other people have been doing. I absolutely love the (2+1)D aspect of it

El'endia Starman

HALLELUJAH!

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@El'endiaStarman The readme is working fine.

El'endia Starman

22:13

SOMEONE ELSE gets the (2+1)D bit! :P

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

xD yup! it's very clever.

El'endia Starman

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Wow, that slipped my mind. I even used the readme several minutes ago myself...

day: made

Primality checking in Minkolang is surprisingly long. nd2`4&1-N.d2-[0ci2+%3&0N.]1N.

Yes, I am considering a built-in for primes.

Let's say it's y. Then I can just do nyN..

Attempting to use Wilson's Theorem ((p-1)! === -1 mod p) was five bytes longer than trial division.

Alex A.

Wilson's Theorem in practice is overflow city.

El'endia Starman

Haha, yeah.

Doorknob

Anyone here good with theoretical CS? How would I determine the time complexity of insertion sort on almost-sorted data?

El'endia Starman

22:27

How "almost-sorted" are we talking?

Doorknob

Uhh, let's say that elements will never be more than two spaces away from where they're supposed to be, and that only a few elements are out of order.

El'endia Starman

huh

Doorknob

ok that's a really bad definition :P

Peter Taylor

I think that if you bound the distance an element can be from its correct position by any constant k then you'll get O(n).

El'endia Starman

First thing that comes to mind is a O(5n) = O(n) algorithm...

Depending on the data structure, the time complexity of insertion may play a role. If you care about that here.

Doorknob

22:30

So if the maximum distance away an element can be is k, then the time complexity of insertion sort is O(kn)?

(meaning that when k is constant, it's just O(n))

@El'endiaStarman No, I don't.

El'endia Starman

@Doorknob Yeah. For every element (O(n)), look at the k possible positions and insert where needed.

Doorknob

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks!

El'endia Starman

Welcome! :)

quartata

Just curious, why are you using an insertion sort?

Alex A.

Welcome to Programming Puzzles and Code Golf! This site is for programming competitions, not for general programming questions. For those you can try Stack Overflow.

Doorknob

22:34

@quartata I've got an array that I know is almost sorted, so something like quicksort would be inefficient.

quartata

OIC. Why is the array almost but not quite sorted?

undergroundmonorail

me this whole time: "but why can't you make k the length of the array for O(n) sorting of any size"

it turns out: i am an idiot

Alex A.

@quartata Because he originally used slacker sort: "Eh, it's sorted enough. Whatever."

undergroundmonorail

i just figured out why that doesn't work haha

Peter Taylor

In theory, pretty much any datatype that people actually use can be sorted in O(n) time.

The O(n lg n) lower bound comes from a restriction to binary comparisons, but what datatype have you ever sorted on which couldn't be radix-sorted?

El'endia Starman

22:38

[tilts head]....eh?

Radix-sorted?

Doorknob

@quartata I'm working on a clone of bsdgames's atc (an "air traffic control" simulation/game). It's an array of pointers to all planes currently on the radar. I know that the change in x of every plane is always either -1, 0, or 1, so if I cache the sorted result via pointers to the actual plane, I don't have to do as much work. (Yes, technically the planes aren't always ≤ 2 from their actual spot, but only in very rare edge cases are they not).

Peter Taylor

@El'endiaStarman Multi-level bucket sort.

El'endia Starman

@Doorknob Why not do swap sort?

Doorknob

Swap sort?

Is that the same as bubble sort?

undergroundmonorail

you swap out the array for a sorted one

hey-o

El'endia Starman

22:40

pffft

Doorknob

:D

Alex A.

D:

quartata

I think he means bubble

El'endia Starman

@Doorknob When you encounter an element that's out of place (i.e., less than the one before), swap it with the one before, and keep going until it's in the right place.

Maybe I do. Lemme look that up.

Doorknob

... isn't that just insertion sort?

El'endia Starman

22:41

oh yeah, that'd be bubble sort

quartata

That is a bubble sort.

El'endia Starman

Well, insertion sort, you pop and insert...

Doorknob

Bubble sort isn't "keep going until it's in the right place"

quartata

ninjad again

Doorknob

Bubble sort is "go through every pair, swap if they're out of place, repeat

El'endia Starman

22:41

Very minor modification in your case.

undergroundmonorail

insertion sort would only take one pass i think

but bubble sort can take a lot

Doorknob

yes

El'endia Starman

hmm

So I guess I'm proposing a hybrid? :P

Doorknob

Kind of. :P

undergroundmonorail

i think you're proposing insertion sort

wait no

okay i missed part of the conversation ignore me

Alex A.

22:42

You're proposing to Doorknob.

Can I be the best bird?

Doorknob

His algorithm is "swap until it's in the right place." Insertion sort is just "stick it in the right place"

El'endia Starman

And I the best star?

Actually, y'know what? I think my algorithm does exactly the same swaps as bubble sort, but in a different order and with fewer comparisons.

Doorknob

no, I think it's just insertion sort

El'endia Starman

@PeterTaylor I still don't quite understand.

Doorknob

(except with swapping instead of moving)

nvm, that's just actually insertion sort

It looks like the same algorithm as on Wikipedia's page

El'endia Starman

22:47

Eh, I still don't think so. Insertion sort takes the element out of the list and then puts it back in. Bubble sort (and my algorithm) swap adjacent elements so they never leave the list.

Doorknob

not according to Wikipedia it doesn't

for i ← 1 to length(A) - 1
    j ← i
    while j > 0 and A[j-1] > A[j]
        swap A[j] and A[j-1]
        j ← j - 1
    end while
end for

El'endia Starman

....HUH.

quartata

You know, talking about all these sorting algorithms made me realize I might be implementing something wrong in my game.

El'endia Starman

Did not expect that.

@quartata Lol, what might that be?

quartata

Suppose I've got a big array (100,000 elements). However, at any given time some of them might be "empty entities" that when compared are always bigger (so they stick at the end). Now suppose I have that array and it is mostly sorted, however there might be a few elements between the "real entities" and the "empty entities" that are VERY far away from where they should be.

I'm using a merge sort for this. Is that bad?

Alex A.

22:50

Yes

quartata

...did you actually read that that fast?

El'endia Starman

I did. :P

Alex A.

I didn't

I can't read

El'endia Starman

Unlike Alex, though, I thought about it. :P

@AlexA. Oh right, you're a bird.

Alex A.

Charp

El'endia Starman

22:52

@quartata Merge sort is rarely ever bad. It's one of the faster/est sorts.

Now, insertion sort might be advantageous if the array is mostly sorted.

quartata

But the array is really big and the elements are far out

El'endia Starman

Even better, use Python and its built-in Timsort. :P

quartata

If it is kn n log n might be better in most cases

@El'endiaStarman This is Java

El'endia Starman

@quartata Do a binary search.

quartata

Hmm

Alex A.

22:55

Javo

Doorknob

El'endia Starman

I've never gotten that badge.

Doorknob

I have, on Stack Overflow.

(for a now-deleted question)

Alex A.

23:10

o

Doorknob

p

El'endia Starman

4 on PPCG

Doorknob

no it's q

Alex A.

r

Doorknob

s

Alex A.

23:11

t

Doorknob

u

Alex A.

v

Doorknob

w

Alex A.

x

Doorknob

y

El'endia Starman

23:11

z

Alex A.

!

Doorknob

\o/

Alex A.

o/

Doorknob

\o

El'endia Starman

o

Doorknob

23:12

p

Alex A.

q

El'endia Starman

z

Okay, we're done.

Alex A.

ಠ_ಠ

Doorknob

ñ

Alex A.

ö

Doorknob

23:13

ṕ

Alex A.

uh... q

Doorknob

®

Alex A.

š

Doorknob

Ŧ

Alex A.

û

Doorknob

23:14

\/

NinjaBearMonkey

\/\/

El'endia Starman

$\times$

Doorknob

×

Alex A.

×

ninjo

Doorknob

¥

Alex A.

23:15

ż

Doorknob

¡

NinjaBearMonkey

{

Alex A.

|

Doorknob

}

NinjaBearMonkey

~

Doorknob

23:16

\x7f

El'endia Starman

I...I'm actually kinda surprised that there are no stars. (Well, at least, since the tumbleweed.)

Alex A.

@NinjaBearMonkey is a superstar.

Close enough.

NinjaBearMonkey

A spoopy one at that

Alex A.

Spooperstar

SpoopyBearMonkey

NinjaBearMonkey

ninja'd

Alex A.

23:21

bearmonkey'd

Official PPCG poll: Do you pronounce "phi" such that it rhymes with "eye" or with "bee"?

Doorknob

option A

NinjaBearMonkey

option A

ah, bearmonkey'd

undergroundmonorail

A

Alex A.

Unfortunately you're all incorrect; the correct answer is B.

Doorknob

So I decided to ditch the insertion sort idea for "collision detection" and go with an O(n²+n) compare-every-element-to-every-other-element approach. Good enough :P

Alex A.

23:29

Such complexity, very time

Doorknob

or... I could quicksort repeatedly and not cache, which would be... O(nlog(n) + n)?

Alex A.

Doorknob

insertion sort + "caching" is O(n), but it's much more complex

@AlexA. ...

undergroundmonorail

Knowing that Doorknob will one day find his perfect algorithm... It fills you with determination.

Alex A.

> nlog(n)

> log

quartata

23:38

@AlexA. A

I guess I'm wrong then.

El'endia Starman

Same.

Alex A.

:O

I wonder if I'm the only one in here that prefers option B.

El'endia Starman

So far, yeah.

Also, just to reiterate...alex-is-wrong, sooo....

undergroundmonorail

for the record i have never in my whole life heard anyone pronounce it like you do

Alex A.

I pronounce it this way because it's how all of my math teachers said it.

undergroundmonorail

23:43

Weird

Alex A.

I guess.

El'endia Starman

I don't recall ever hearing my math teachers say it. :P

(Or if I did, I wasn't paying attention to their pronunciation.)

Alex A.

23:57

I guess it's pronounced "fi" in Greek and "fai" in English.

Doorknob

so I tried to search for "C" on Stack Overflow chat

turns out that brings up like, every single chatroom

Alex A.

Are you're surprised...?

undergroundmonorail

nice

Transcript for