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01:47
@Vioz- sure, they gave it to me at an ACM programming contest about 15 years ago
02:06
@aditsu How far did you make it? I don't think we got anything. Except for a free trip to the contest.
4th place one year, 15th place another year
at what scope? the world finals?
yes, finals
I think we finished 4th in the European finals. Only the first 2 qualified for the finals in the US.
The European finals were in Holland, and all the teams ahead of us were Dutch.
we had a pretty strong team
02:17
@trichoplax @orlp C++ found 79 overnight by seeding with an 80
 
2 hours later…
04:11
@BrainSteel Let's say you wanna go to Peru. You'll probably fly into Lima and need a hotel. Google 'Lima hotels' and the first hit is Hilton. Their stock symbol is HLT. Half Life Three confirmed.
if you want authoritative news about Half Life, you should ask Beta Decay
7
04:37
@aditsu Why, does Beta Decay work at Valve?
@ChrisJester-Young I think it's a pun on his username :P
@Doorknob Dammit. Nice.
 
2 hours later…
06:43
we have a new tag algorithm-advice!
I had no idea
it has no information it seems and appears not be actually new
what is this for?
@Lembik "new"
@MartinBüttner right.. it seems to be from 2014 and now dead?
we should probably actually get rid of it
it looked great!
but then I love everything algorithmey :)
it doesn't really look on topic
06:51
that's sort of why I love it
because it extends PPCG in any interesting direction
but if you feel that there aren't enough PPCG users to support that extension then I understand
if you need algorithm advice, then SO is probably the better site
@steveverrill Sorry if the comment I left was a bit too direct. Like you say it's pretty hard to examine the challenges in such a way that there is no selection bias, but that's exactly why I think it's more useful to break down the analysis and ask when and why one language does better (or even break down the numbers by tags, say).
I just feel that the numbers posted are a bit misleading, that's all
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

samgakSierpinski Carpet & friends in ASCII Overview Write a program that prints out simple fractal patterns given a bit-pattern encoding the fractal, plus the per-generation scale factor of the fractal and number of generations. Explanation Here is an ASCII representation of the Sierpinski Carpet: ...

07:11
0
Q: Do we need the [algorithm-advice] tag?

Martin BüttnerThere's a tag algorithm-advice which is currently being used three times. All three questions were asking for help with solving a programming challenge found elsewhere. We usually consider that to be off-topic. Two of the questions were sort of salvaged and turned into challenges (the third one i...

@Sp3000 Wow. Are you going to share it or make @orlp search for it? :P
I dunno, what should I do? o_O
@Sp3000 I thought the bounty system had broken as my question still shows up in the featured tab - then I realised it was you :) Will you leave the bounty there for the week to see if it attracts any more answers (and upvotes for question and answers...)?
Considering the text I've put up, my intention was to award it as soon as I can
@Sp3000 Lol it doesn't matter. This seems a very friendly competition (like most on PPCG) so I don't see a problem either way.
The bounty is like a big sign saying "Go and upvote orlp's answer", which is why I'd be inclined to make the most of it. I'm biased though, since it may also get the question a few more upvotes...
07:20
@orlp C++ 79
I was considering making it a more general message to encourage more answers, but since nothing much happened last week I dunno...
Although there wasn't a flurry of new answers, the new approaches thrown up has been interesting and the strings are a lot shorter now...
@Sp3000 Oh there are more than one version of the 79 - looks like there will be further improvements to come...
My problem is I'm lacking a bit of intuition about how many of the optimal there should be
A lot of times you can also get something of the same length by swapping two instructions
My only intuition is that at the shortest length the strings will look quite distinct from each other, but I have no reason to believe that's true. It's just a guess that nearby valid strings suggests some redundancy
Do you remember how many shortest strings there were for 2 by 2?
16, which sounds about right due to symmetry
4 by rotation, 4 by reflection?
So in some sense there is only 1 shortest string for 2 by 2
Or would there be only 2 by reflection? I can't quite visualise it
07:28
The first move can be anything (x4) and the second move can be a left or right turn (x2) so that's a factor of 8
After that I think there's two base strings, one palindromic and the other not: NESWNEWSENW, NESWNENWSEN
If we knew there would be a palindromic shortest string for 3 by 3 that would mean brute forcing would only have to consider combinations of strings up to length 39. Still unrealistic but a big difference...
I did try that, but I couldn't get anything good out of it :P
How high did it get...?
Well length 39's still too long to brute force
Yes indeed
07:34
But I'll see if I can try again for 2x3, because I can't remember the results
I'm guessing the intuitions for 3 by 3 will be a little different to 2 by 2 since there can be double letters, which are never required for 2 by 2.
2x2's also nicer because I think anything which solves the mazes which require 3 step solutions is sufficient
I wonder whether the time taken to check each new string for triple letters would be worth it
Since most strings have quite a few double letters I'm guessing a non trivial proportion of candidate strings have triple letters
I thought about substrings which shouldn't appear, which might be good for a heuristic search
I haven't benchmarked to see if it'd help in the mutation algorithm though
I also wonder whether, with enough quick exclusion criteria, it might be worth a blind approach just testing random strings shorter than the shortest known. I suspect you've already got shorter than would be viable for that though
07:44
Quick update, palindromic brute force passed the 25 mark for 2 by 3, so it doesn't work
@MartinBüttner SO is a funny place and will very often close questions that don't come with code in them
So there aren't any palindromic shortest strings for 2 by 3?
Yeah
@Lembik Would it fit on programmers.SE?
@trichoplax interesting question
@trichoplax programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/… doesn't really seem to include the type of questions we are talking about
@MartinBüttner I just realised this brings back the whole "code in answers" debate
what is the word "burninate"??
and can we burninate it?
ah "
It came from the classic Homestar Runner cartoon in an episode where Strong Bad creates a character called Trogdor the Burninator.
"
07:59
@PeterTaylor Correct me if I'm wrong, but suppose you take two path graphs A and B where the start is at one end of A but not for B, i.e. B's start is somewhere along the path between A's start and exit. If a string solves A but not B, then A needs to overtake B at some point. But if you execute the same instructions on both mazes simultaneously, I don't think that's possible, and the two positions will overlap on the same square at some point, executing the same instructions for the remainder.
Or, at least that's what I thought intuitively
Hmm. I think I see what you're getting at. Got to run, but I'll think about it.
Sure :) Haven't proven it on paper though
(should probably mention that we're picking the A such that A and B have the same exit)
 
1 hour later…
09:20
0
Q: Tips for golfing in CoffeeScript

metalimWhat tricks do you know to make CoffeeScript code shorter? CoffeeScript is language that compiles into JavaScript ("transpiles" into ES3, to be exact). The golden rule is "It's just JavaScript", meaning there's no runtime overhead. Most of JavaScript Tips & Tricks apply as well. As a side-effec...

 
3 hours later…
12:10
@TreFox Hey :)
@Sp3000 Hello!
I have no idea why I am here...
Chat's quiet on weekends, just wanted to break the silence :)
No sure why you're here? More like "why not"? :P
Yeah, I guess do :P
*so
Hey, can you direct me to that maze question? Can't seem to find it for some reason...
Ah, nvm I got it
I really love your approach to it
How long does your code take to run?
12:14
@Sp3000 I thought about it and I'm convinced. But it doesn't generalise in the way that the finish does.
More like orlp's approach + extras. It runs forever - stumbling around trying to find better solutions
Well yeah, but how long did it take to find the current best string?
@PeterTaylor That's good, thanks :) But yeah, I haven't been able to generalise which mazes are necessary. I'll add the cut vertices part later though, that was a good observation
If you meant how long the program took, then "overnight"
If you meant how long we've spent on this problem... well check the start date :P
Oh wow...
The best method I would be able to think of would be brute force, which probably wouldn't work out that well with strings of length 80+ :P
In any other circumstance I'd want to apologise for wasting that much of your time, but I guess it's a good thing here :)
12:20
It's more CPU time than me time :P I can't work while I sleep, so instead I look forward to the possible excitement of results when I wake up
Brute force might be okay if you have a good approach, for all you know :)
@trichoplax I love questions like those though, because they actually take up a lot of time and thinking power. It gets pretty boring without those types of questions.
I'm currently trying to figure out genetic algorithms so I can get the computer to think for me
Genetic algorithms are fascinating and very useful in some cases, but they still take a lot of thinking...
Um I'm stuck in edit mode how do I get out?
Did you see the lab rat race genetic algorithm question?
Oh ok that fixed it xD
No, I'll have to check that out
"Why does it (seem to) work?

I still don't know precisely why."
Man I love genetic algorithms...
12:26
I like them... when they work well :P
I want a genetic algorithm to browse the codegolf stackexchange and answer questions for me
I think I am putting too much faith in genetic algorithms...
In some sense all the PPCG answers are the result of genetic algorithms...
3
Seeing some of the answers on here, I think my statement still stands...
In all seriousness though, you people are stupidly talented.
2
12:35
Join and learn... is all I can really say - I'm sure most people still receive golf tips from others, for example, it's just a nice community where we share and learn
The sharing and learning means more to me than the talent. I've asked some stupid questions here in chat and found everyone incredibly helpful.
Although it is fun sharing a chat room with people who can see the matrix
The problem with GA in my experience is that they're freaky good at solving 80% of a problem. To get them to solve the rest of the problem you have to be very clever in a lot of cases.
^^ That sums up my experience with them pretty well :)
Except when it's a problem poorly suited for GAs in the first place. They you've got no chance.
12:51
Yeah, different machine learning algorithms have very apparent strengths and weaknesses. GA is really scary good at some things, and absolutely abysmal at a lot of others.
Clearly we need more neural network answers :P [/too scared to try]
I have no experience with them at all. They seem to take a bit more code than GA does just to get something basic running, though.
they also excel in different applications
13:19
@PeterTaylor I have a counterexample
yep, sorry :P
grabs popcorn Go on :)
ok, I'll do it in ASCII art
S is the start, E is the end, and . is free path
E
.S.
err it needs one more component sry
or I think I might've fooled myself by thinking about 3 degrees of freedom
yep, never mind
13:40
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

PyrrhaWhat is in my pocket? Synopsis: Find characters that are enclosed by MYPOCKET. Example Input MYPHEIF YFOCKVH MBNDEIF TEUFTMY ESNDUWP KBOVUVO CENWFKC OPYMTEB Example Output F BND EUF SNDUW BOVUV ENWF Huh? How did we get that as an output? The "pocket" can sometimes be diffic...

So I decided to log in to the Sandbox account to see how many notifications it has...
Does the green mean it's earned some badges too?
@Doorknob if SE finds out that the Sandbox is not really a person, will he get banned?
13:49
The real problem is: What if they find out that the sandbox is only 11 months old?
@orlp no :P
80
Q: I am a sockpuppet, may I exist if I have a real purpose?

Josh's SocksI am a sockpuppet account of Josh, AKA The Unhandled Exception. I am going to help him test the XMPP chat integration system he's building. Am I allowed to exist? I promise to behave, and never leave Meta or Meta's chat. If so, may I please have enough rep to chat? EDIT BY JOSH: I have drawn a ...

@Doorknob also, why isn't there an unsubscribe option from a question
that you don't want to receive notifications on it
5
Q: Unsubscribe from notifications on answers/comments to closed questions

Richard JP Le GuenA few days ago, I answered a question on a meta site which was closed as not-constructive. People are still arguing over it, leaving comments which end up in my Stack Exchange inbox. Is it possible for me to unsubscribe from that answer/question? I have no intention of giving it any further tho...

@PeterTaylor btw, you usually seem quite knowledgeable, are you an academic mathematician?
and as always, feel free to use the 'none-of-your-business' card :)
14:36
@Dennis I'm trying to use your script (here) to generate strings for testing, but I'm having real trouble (mostly because I don't understand bash very well). I had to change the cipher option because my Mac OS X box doesn't seem to recognize -aes-128-ctr. Also, it seems to be throwing around strings with length 1010-1030-ish on random occasion. Can you help me understand what it is doing?
14:57
@Sp3000 If A has found its end, then one turn before doing so, it would have been next to it. Now, B could only have been in one of three places: before A, overlapping A, or after A (at the shared end). Now, since once A and B meet they move together, and neither A nor B can skip vertices or swap their positions (180° turns are impossible in 1 move), B can't have been before A. Thus, either B overlapped A and will find its end in the next turn, or it already did.
Yeah that was roughly what I had in mind :) It was the "swap position" part which I wasn't completely sure about, but I think in order for that to happen they need to be moving in opposite directions on the same move, which is impossible.
Yeah a 180° requires at least 3 cells
@BrainSteel None of this is actually a Bash problem. openssl either was compiled without the cipher or it's named differently in Mac OS X. openssl list-cipher-algorithms should show what's available.
@BrainSteel I've uploaded the first 99 test cases here.
15:15
Thank you! I'm working on it right now, I'm going to need a couple more clever things to get the time down low enough.
16:14
@orlp No, I'm an amateur mathematician who did consider staying in academia but decided in the end to get a "real job" after finishing my undergraduate degree in compsci.
 
1 hour later…
17:15
@PeterTaylor I wanted to do a PhD in statistics but my grades were too shitty for that, so I ended up working a "real job" after my honours degree. ;-)
@ChrisJester-Young I don't understand, what does an honours degree mean if it's combined with shitty grades?
I thought honours degree meant graduated with very high grades
like cum laude
In the British system, it means graduating with a Douglas* or better.
@orlp At the university I went to, there are three types of honours awarded: first class, second class first division, and second class second division. The first two allows you to continue with a PhD. The third doesn't.
* Rhyming slang for third class honours.
I have no idea what any of that means lol
17:20
@PeterTaylor The only Douglas I know is Douglas Adams, sorry. So I wouldn't know what the rhyming slang is.
Lemme Google it up.
@Dennis Alright, it now handles 2 strings okay! I'm going to post an answer and improve it a lot soon, hopefully.
Google says it's Douglas Hurd, and I have no idea who the F he is.
Wikipedia says British politician and novelist. Interesting.
@orlp Rhyming slang is like a code language, where you say the first part of the phrase (Douglas, in the case of Douglas Hurd), and people are supposed to know the second part and associate it with a rhyme (Hurd => third).
Not knowing a rhyming slang commonly used in a community automatically marks you as an outsider. ;-)
2 mins ago, by Peter Taylor
^ for the ping
18:22
hi @PeterTaylor
what is the protocol about when I should accept your answer? I have a suspicion you will have scared everyone else off :)
@ChrisJester-Young 2:1 is more difficult for rhyming slang :)
but first you need to know what a 2:1 is!
Australian rhyming slang always goes over my head - thankfully it's not used in everyday speech, not in the more urban parts anyway
@Sp3000 Am I right that your code didn't find any better results than the ones PT has posted?
for my question that is
Yep - wouldn't have expected it to anyway
Or, at least, in a reasonable time frame
@Sp3000 I haven't fully understood PeterT's solution yet I have to admit
I switch off at "tensor" :)
That's just terminology - focus on the paragraphs below that :P
18:31
ok so.. I don't even really understand "Theorem: the maximum independent set of a disjoint union of graphs is the union of their maximum independent sets. So if we break a graph down into unconnected components we can simplify the problem."
this seems trivial
wouldn't any max independent set algorithm take advantage of that?
the interesting part seems to be the first heuristic
other than that, it's just brute force isn't it?
I mean brute force backtracking?
is that right?
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@orlp I feel that was a funny comment about me but I don't fully understand it :)
@Lembik Give it a few days. I think the general rule of thumb is to wait a week from the first answer, but if there's still activity then wait a bit longer.
@PeterTaylor ok will do
@Lembik Not a completely naïve one.
And no, it's not brute force. That was too slow.
It's greedy.
18:38
@PeterTaylor ah.. you create all 3^n vertices and then select them in heuristic 2 order . What is the stopping condition?
do you actually go through all of them?
hmm
The stopping condition is running out of vertices which don't match a selected one.
@PeterTaylor can you know that before seeing all 3^n of them?
maybe I should just ask what the running time is
one of the things I find particularly impressive about your answers is that you rarely use external libraries of any note
Exponential. I start by generating a graph of exponential size, so it's not going to be polynomial. I haven't analysed it more precisely than that.
ok... but do you always go through all 3^n of the vertices after you have created them?
Yes.
Although a fair chunk of them are knocked out straight away by the first heuristic.
18:44
@Lembik nothing to do with you
it's a common joke
@PeterTaylor thanks very much
@orlp :)
@PeterTaylor second protocol question.. I am tempted to ask the question of how it scales on math.se. Is it OK to do that after I accept an answer?
19:17
Sure, but I wouldn't be optimistic about getting an answer.
@PeterTaylor because it's too hard or just not interesting enough to a mathematician?
It's too specific. It doesn't seem to correspond to any of the special cases which have been studied.
20:09
@PeterTaylor Well I do go to some effort to construct questions which have this property after all !
oh I love Dennis's questions :)
I hope I have inspired these
20:54
woo
I just passed 5k rep
AND my first gold badge
@Sp3000 haha
@Sp3000 either I beat you on the maze question
@Sp3000 but then I won't have my gold badge :(
no new question in 12 hours :(
 
2 hours later…
22:37
@orlp Ahaha nice, just made it for populist :P
@orlp Nice work on 5k rep
23:09
@RetoKoradi In either case, a better heuristic is of course more preferable, but I just thought I'd mention how close n=7 gets :)
still no new question :(
its been so long!
@Sp3000 You had a recursive solution that was guaranteed to find the maximum? Mine performed very poorly. I didn't even have the patience to let it finish for n=5.
Actually, I didn't look at intermediate results. It's possible that it found good results long before it finished.
@orlp What type of question are you hoping for?
^^ that's exactly what I mean
@trichoplax any!
I need a question!
23:16
Mine doesn't terminate for n > 5 or do either, takes too long :P
No preference for golf/challenge/subject matter?
probably golf
but not really
Maybe browse the sandbox for something you want posted and then push the poster until they do...
@orlp This is older, but it didn't get much participation: codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/51728/…;. I can almost guarantee that it will keep you busy for a while.
@RetoKoradi bit too much boilerplate IMO =/
I'd say more than half of the work that goes into that challenge is the geometry calculation code, and not the packing algorithm :P
23:27
Yes, that one was a lot of work. I like geometry, so it was a good one for me. Must be the most time I ever spent on a SE post. The only one that comes kind of close was that pawns thing.
23:52
@Sp3000 Yes, it reaches 76 within about 1 second or so for n=7. Still seems to be stuck at 164 for n=9, though. At least for the couple of minutes I waited so far.
That's roughly what I had :)

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