The Nineteenth Byte

Alex A.

00:04

@PhiNotPi, @TheBestOne: Ruby inspection, yes

Do we have MathJax in chat? Let's find out: $\frac{1}{2}$

Nope

Also, in case anyone cares: I finally broke 2,000 rep! Woot.

Alex A.

00:28

@PhiNotPi: HELLO

PhiNotPi

hi

Alex A.

How's it going?

PhiNotPi

good

Alex A.

Cool

TheBestOne

Cooler

Calvin's Hobbies

00:30

Coolest

PhiNotPi

I'm trying to find golf questions that are easily answered by Element, because I want to increase brand recognition.

TheBestOne

Coolestest

Alex A.

n->println("Cool" * "est"^n)

TheBestOne

The Best One

Alex A.

@PhiNotPi: Try Calvin's newest!

PhiNotPi

00:32

Cool`_'[est`]

^ Element

The abundance of '`" characters can make it look weird sometimes.

Alex A.

Only if by "weird" you mean "intriguing."

Sp3000

@randomra Ahaha nice - I actually considered an answer using p, but actually using the input as mirrors is a great idea :P

TheBestOne

Absolute zero

^ You can't get cooler than that

Alex A.

You can't get colder than that.

TheBestOne

Or cooler.

Alex A.

00:48

@PhiNotPi: You're a Perl fellow, right?

PhiNotPi

Kinda

That's what I wrote the Element interpreter in.

Alex A.

Would you be interested in contributing to the Perl submission to Calvin's language showcase challenge? It's a community wiki with 10 votes. I did the first 6 then realized I don't know enough Perl to keep it interesting. :/

PhiNotPi

01:04

I added an Element answer, looking at Perl.

Alex A.

+1 to your Element answer

ASCIIThenANSI

I have a question - I answered a question that was considered 'bad', and I'm getting downvotes for it. Should I keep my answer, or delete it?

Alex A.

Do you feel it's a bad answer?

Calvin's Hobbies

@ASCIIThenANSI It's entirely up to you.

Alex A.

^What he said

ASCIIThenANSI

01:15

Personally, I think the guy was just looking for help (it was a question on beginner tips.) But even though the question is closed, I still get downvotes on my answer. Why?

Alex A.

Closed doesn't mean people can't vote on it. I can't really speak for why people are downvoting your answer though.

ASCIIThenANSI

I'm not sure either. I gave a clear guide on some references he could use, which was exactly what he wanted.

TheBestOne

@ASCIIThenANSI Because it should of been a comment in my opinion.

Alex A.

I agree with TheBestOne that it probably should have been a comment. (And indeed, it would be a helpful comment.)

ASCIIThenANSI

Should I repost as a comment then?

TheBestOne

01:20

Sure

Alex A.

Up to you. Your answer may or may not continue to get downvoted (or upvoted--anything's possible) if you leave it there.

Actually don't bother

The info has been covered in other comments

Sp3000

@xnor D: damn

Alex A.

@Sp3000: youtu.be/XyvlqU7y_Xc

PhiNotPi

I did a length 10 snippet for Perl.

Alex A.

@PhiNotPi: Looks great!

@PhiNotPi: How old were you when you started programming?

xnor

01:36

@Sp3000 is there a way to shorten the expression "1+\d%sots"%"d"[:n]?

PhiNotPi

@AlexA. I don't know. Early in middle school probably.

Maybe late elementary school.

Alex A.

WOW. What language did you start with?

PhiNotPi

Perl

Blame my dad.

Alex A.

Oh believe me, I do. I hold such a grudge against your father.

@Doorknob: Hello!

Doorknob

@AlexA. Hello!

TheBestOne

01:39

@Doorknob Would you like to tell us how you started programming?

Alex A.

(removed)

Doorknob

Sure. I started in, uh, 5th grade, I think. I found this huge Java book at the local bookstore and really wanted it for some reason. So my parents got it for me and I read the whole thing multiple times.

... I was a strange child :D

Alex A.

More like badass child. Wow.

Sp3000

@xnor Alternative 68 byte I see, nice. Can't think of anything on the spot though, but nice use of \\d -> \d

Doorknob

Anyway, Stack Overflow was actually a great resource and helped a ton (which is also how I happened to stumble upon PPCG as well).

PhiNotPi

01:42

Should we bring back the interrobang‽

Alex A.

...what is that?

PhiNotPi

A question mark and exclamation point combined.

Alex A.

Where did it come from? Was it previously present, phased out, and now you're bringing it back?

Doorknob

⸘Es fantástico, no‽

Alex A.

分かりません

ASCIIThenANSI

01:45

So where would this be used? Just in programs, or for somewhere else?

Sp3000

@xnor If we do a bit of shuffling, we can get lambda n:"$$\\varphi=1+"+"\cfrac1{1+"*n+"\dd"[:n+2]+"ots"+"}"*n+"$$" - now the question is is there a better way of writing "\dd"[:n+2]? :P

Doorknob

In place of "?!". For example: "You did what‽"

Alex A.

@Sp3000: Is the escape necessary for v?

Sp3000

Yes, \v is ASCII 11 :/

Alex A.

@Doorknob: Can you teach me this black magic?

@Sp3000: Bummer.

TheBestOne

01:47

alt numbercode

ASCIIThenANSI

@Doorknob Oh, I was thinking of the hashbang (#!). :|

Alex A.

£

wtf

xnor

@Sp3000 I'm not seeing one.

Alex A.

¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº–≠

Doorknob

@AlexA. Black magic‽ It's hardly black magic!

ASCIIThenANSI

01:48

I don't see anything. I pressed alt and then a number code.

Doorknob

ugh I reversed it again. compose key fail :P

TheBestOne

What's the keycode?

xnor

and operator precedence prevents "ots"+"}"*n+"$$" from being "ots%s$$"%"}"*n

Alex A.

I'm holding Option (Mac's alt) and pressing everything.

Sp3000

Yeah, that was a problem last time too, damn :/

Doorknob

01:48

I'm just typing it with the compose key.

Sp3000

Sometimes I wish % had higher precedence

Doorknob

compose + ! + ? → ‽

Alex A.

What is compose?

TheBestOne

A linux thing :(

Compose key

A compose key, whether already existent on the computer keyboard or designated to an existent key, is a modifier key used to input a number of characters that are not part of the official keyboard. Upon its use, it signals to the software to interpret the following keystrokes (usually two) as a combination to produce an alternate character. For example, striking Compose, followed by ~, and then n will produce the character ñ; striking Compose, followed by O, and then C will produce the copyright symbol ©. == Key details == The compose key's behavior differs from typical modifier key behavior (such...

Doorknob

A wonderful key that lets you combine stuff like t and m to get ™ and ' and a to get á and ! and ! to get ¡ and so on.

Alex A.

01:50

Sigh.

Doorknob

You can make arrows (- > = →), music notes (# q = ♩, # e = ♪, etc.), math symbols (8 8 = ∞), so many things

Alex A.

On Mac I can make a bunch of random crap by holding Option and pressing everything.

ASCIIThenANSI

Is there any way to simulate one?

Doorknob

@ASCIIThenANSI 1. remove inferior operating system 2. install Linux-based OS 3. ??? 4. PROFIT!

:P

Alex A.

|:[

Sp3000

01:51

@xnor If only \\ didn't need so much escaping, lambda n:"$$\\varphi=1+\\"+"cfrac1{1+\\"*n+"d"[:n]+"dots"+"}"*n+"$$" is another 68

ASCIIThenANSI

Oh. Never mind, it's in my options menu.

Alex A.

I have an Apple logo.  Gee, thanks Apple.

Doorknob

heh, that shows up as a generic "character not found" on my machine (a box with "F8FF" in it, which is its unicode codepoint I guess)

Alex A.

Well clearly yours is the inferior operating system! :P

Doorknob

It simply refuses to display symbols of the opposition. :P

TheBestOne

01:54

Not as inferior as Windows (which I use for sentimental reasons).

Alex A.

@TheBestOne: Please tell me you run Windows 95.

TheBestOne

8.1

Alex A.

Heh, Windows 95 is TheBestOne to use for sentimental reasons.

Except you probably weren't alive in 1995.

ASCIIThenANSI

I have an idea on Sandbox, would it be OK if I shared it here?

Alex A.

@ASCIIThenANSI: You're welcome to, but if it's already on the sandbox, you could just post a URL to it.

ASCIIThenANSI

02:01

@AlexA. It is on the sandbox already, I was wondering if I could share it here (and it wouldn't be flagged for spam or something.)

xnor

@Sp3000 Whoa, you cut a char

Sp3000

Yeah, the string formatting itself doesn't save chars, but it let me do \%

xnor

ah, clever

wait, which char does it avoid escaping?

Sp3000

The \\ which would otherwise be at the end of a string

xnor

i see

Alex A.

02:06

@ASCIIThenANSI: I don't think you have to worry about it being flagged as spam unless you start telling us about how we could save money with Geico or something.

randomra

@Sp3000 My ><> answer rather chat-worthy than answer-worthy, right?

Sp3000

You can post it for fun if you want :)

ASCIIThenANSI

@AlexA. Haha, thanks.

Sp3000

If you link to fishlanguage.com people can see it work and they might be more interested

randomra

@Sp3000 Why didn't I know about this????

Is it added to golftips? It should.

Sp3000

02:10

@randomra Here

ASCIIThenANSI

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

A New Kind of KOTH - Work with other bots This is just an idea, let me know if it won't pan out well. The year is 2015 (plus or minus a few thousand years). All the PPGC challenges have collapsed, with the wave of code-troll ambushes. All that remains are the bots, executing their small challeng...

What do you think?

Sp3000

I'll put it in the OP of the tips page

Oh, right I forgot. p doesn't work on that interpreter yet.

randomra

so did Fongoid do the site?

@Sp3000 seems to work

Sp3000

That was what I was trying to ask, but I can't tell in all honesty based on the response

Oh I see what happened, p only works if the cell already exists in the program

Alex A.

@MariaTidalTug: If I recall, you changed your display name for April Fool's Day and are unable to change it back for 30 days. Is that true or did I dream that?

Sp3000

02:14

But something like !\";"11p! doesn't work unless you put in an extra newline to start a second row

Alex A.

@ASCIIThenANSI: I think it's interesting at first glance. Haven't given it deep consideration yet

ASCIIThenANSI

@AlexA. I'm basically just looking to see if there's anything I left out. It feels ready, but without feedback I can't tell.

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Every number is interesting - Redux Credit to randomra for original challenge. We know that every number is interesting, and because we are PPCG programmers, we will write a program that tells us what's interesting (because that's our thing!) You should write a program or function which: - t...

Sp3000

@ASCIIThenANSI Might be good to link to the original post by randomra so people can see the original too

PhiNotPi

02:39

I want to create an online interpreter for Element. What's the best way to do that?

TheBestOne

Step 1: make an online interpreter. Step 2: find hosting. Step 3: finished

PhiNotPi

How does Aditsu do it?

Alex A.

Ask him!

PhiNotPi

I need to figure out how web development, in general, works.

Alex A.

I'd like to know as well. I told my sister's boyfriend I'd make a browser-based application for his business for $10.

Calvin's Hobbies

02:44

heroku.com is free (for very basic apps)

Sp3000

I used Heroku after seeing issacg do it with Pyth. Took a day or two of learning things

randomra

@PhiNotPi Elements looks very nice! Especially for a non-forked own language.

Alex A.

Heroku looks cool.

randomra

Hmm, there is no connect-the-dots ascii-art challenge yet? That should change! :)

Alex A.

I've been procrastinating on all sorts of crap so I'll talk to you all later. Have a good evening! (Or day, in the case of @Sp3000)

Sp3000

02:49

Heh night - I'm sure there's more people in my timezone though :P

PhiNotPi

@randomra Thanks!

Maria Tidal Tug

03:08

@AlexA. @AlexA. thats right

Calvin's Hobbies

Am I the only one befuddled by how @MariaTidalTug and @NinjaBearMonkey have brand new names?

Doorknob

Waitwaitwait, ninja bear monkey? Who's that?

Calvin's Hobbies

Was hsl

PhiNotPi

Who is Maria Tidal Tug?

I saw that name pop up one day out of the blue.

Calvin's Hobbies

Was DigitalTrauma

PhiNotPi

03:17

Okay

Calvin's Hobbies

Its in his(her?) about page

randomra

@Calvin'sHobbies MariaTidalTug thought he can change it right back after 1st of April :P

Doorknob

@MariaTidalTug I could change it back for you, if you really really want. :P

Changing it back on a different site and then copying to all network profiles should also do the trick.

PhiNotPi

I think I heard the trick of creating a new account on a site and then pushing the change

Not sure if it works, though

Maria Tidal Tug

03:41

@Calvin'sHobbies it was supposed to be a 1-day change for april 1 ;-)

@Doorknob No worries - not a big deal

randomra

04:22

1

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Brainf*** to tinyBF converter code-golfbrainfuckconversion You don't need to know these languages to participate. Every necessary info is in this question. You should write a program or function which given a brainfuck (BF) code as input outputs its tinyBF equivalent. BF has 8 instructions ch...

Any notes before posting?

user2428118

07:14

I was thinking of a snake KOTH, somewhat like this, but where bots can see each other.

Here is a very rough draft of the rules:

Snake pit

one - to - one battles

start length = 3

end of battle if:

A.length > 7 && A.length >= B.length * 2
OR
You crash into other snake or wall

Everybody starts at left / right wall

Starting player random

Tournament:
every bot vs every other bot
bots take turns

Actions
bot has 30 seconds to decide move
If no action bot loses
bot posts action to controller which makes it public to everyone

items:
Apple - dropped randomly if another apple is eaten. Makes the snake eating it gain one segment

Thoughts?

Optimizer

07:26

really weird :

0

A: Generate MathJax for the Golden Ratio Continued Fraction

CJam, 51 bytes "$$\varphi=1+\\""cfrac1{1+\\"ri:R*"ddots"R!>'}R*'$_ Code explanation: "$$\varphi=1+\\" "This is a static string"; "cfrac1{1+\\"ri:R* "Repeat this string input number times"; "ddots"R!> "If input is 0, remove 1st characters, else not"; '}R...

edit to see how the explanation code block is marked up.

grc

08:15

@Optimizer that is weird

seems to be caused by the dollar signs

also, MathJax has broken the search page

Sp3000

Oh god the Perl

@user2428118 Have you looked at this challenge?

grc

Perl and PHP are the worst - it must be the dollar signs

Sp3000

08:43

Now that it's 2009, let's see how long it takes for Go to show up :D

Optimizer

10:30

why is the pyth mathjax answer deleted ?

Sp3000

Maybe because it doesn't work for 0?

Optimizer

oh

<phew>

Sp3000

Having said that, sub-50 should still be pretty doable in Pyth :P ... I think

Optimizer

I was trying to use the same approach as mine, I think I have 49 .. Let me see

Sp3000

Here's 50: s("$$\\varphi=1+"*Q"\cfrac1{1+"\\>"ddots"!Q*Q\}"$$

Optimizer

10:47

49 is possible

no idea if shorter is possible

Sp3000

You can't "\v" in Pyth

Optimizer

11:03

@Sp3000 ah .. damn

@Sp3000 then I am not sure how sub 50 is possible

Sp3000

shrugs

Runer112

12:41

@Optimizer what are those double backslashes doing in the explanation of codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/48605/18144

Optimizer

@Runer112 ummm .. . commenting ?

New Meta Posts

12:56

0

Q: General programming questions close message is disingenuous

There have been multiple times now that I've wanted to close a question as off-topic, but refrained from doing so due to the message associated with it: General programming questions are off-topic here, but can be asked on Stack Overflow. A prime example of this is this recently closed ques...

discussion

Geobits

15:44

I know it's Wednesday and all, but this chat room is just sad today :(

Sp3000

:(

randomra

16:02

:) :) :)

Is there a category/name for languages that can solve any problem in the same O() as a decent language? (I assume all decent languages can solve any problem in the same O().)

rcrmn

16:49

I believe all languages able to solve the same set of problem-space problems, should be able to do so using the minimum complexity, in some way or another...

At least time-wise

Zgarb

@rcrmn What if I define a language just like Python, but where executing the nth command takes an additional n! seconds of idle time?

Geobits

17:03

That's possible. So I guess one candidate term is "sane languages" ;)

TheNumberOne

A lot of algorithms' O() are determined by data structures.

For example, binary search is O(l) on a linked list.

Geobits

Sure, but you don't have to use the language's builtin methods. As long as you have very basic data structures, you can make the others from that.

I mean, if your entire language is based on nothing but linked lists, then you may be on to something. But that comes back to "sane" IMO.

TheNumberOne

A Turing machine doesn't have random access memory.

The whole data structure of a Turing Machine is a "linked list".

Geobits

I never said a bare Turing machine was a sane language ;)

TheNumberOne

You can implement java with a Turing machine :)

Geobits

17:09

Insanity can emulate sanity, just ask half my family :D

Zgarb

Should 'sane languages' implement quantum operations? They do provide a speedup.

Geobits

To be honest, I don't know enough about quantum computing to give an informed opinion.

Zgarb

I was only half serious too. :P

randomra

@Geobits there are used languages which can't do random access arrays (I think prolog is almost like that, as there is a very hacky way)

Geobits

I get that there are exceptions. While working without random access long-term would probably drive me crazy, I think you guys are taking my "sane" suggestion a bit too seriously.

I don't think there is a term that means exactly what you want, though (or at least I've never heard of it).

You could use something like "complexity-equivalent", but that's just ugly.

randomra

17:17

weird, as it seems an important (and clear?) property

we need PeterTaylor :)

TheNumberOne

I think the basic data structures are linked lists and arrays.

Runer112

18:26

asymptotically-optimal?

TheNumberOne

18:57

@Calvin'sHobbies The sandbox controller is stuck on this ^

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Bijective N -> Z x Z function or Generate a pair of integers from a non-negative one code-golf math numbers function? You should write a program or function which takes a non-negative integer N as input and outputs or returns two integers (negative, zero or positive) X and Y. The implemeted ...

randomra

@Zgarb MathJax has some loading time while the text keep jumping so I plan to use it only if the text greatly benefits from it.

Zgarb

Right, that's also annoying if it happens too often.

Calvin's Hobbies

20:12

@TheNumberOne I'm having that problem too. I have to assume it is SE's problem because the sandbox fiddle runs fine and it even works when I edit the question and try running it there. Not sure what's going on.

ASCIIThenANSI

20:35

Hey, I have a question. The user 'Community' (who is a bot) owns the community wiki questions. I know these get up/downvoted, but how come it only has 1 reputation?

Is this just a function of the script that runs it?

Optimizer

special case

community is not a bot

ASCIIThenANSI

So it just ignores any reputation changes for Community?

Optimizer

yes

ASCIIThenANSI

OK. Thanks.

Calvin's Hobbies

@TheNumberOne I've asked about it.

New Meta Posts

20:41

0

Q: Stack Snippets messing with JS?

I've noticed that my Red vs. Blue Sandbox controller snippet here has stopped working (at least in Chrome). This is incredibly strange because the JSFiddle that is exactly identical is working fine. More importantly, if you go to the edit mode for the meta question, the snippet works fine when y...

support bug

Martin Büttner

22:23

I someone aware of a 2D esolang on a hexgrid? (just asking because I just found a language called Hexagrid, but it's not on a hexgrid :(...)

randomra

i don't know of one, but one on a Penrose tiling would be a real pain :D

Martin Büttner

that would be beautiful though

randomra

a periodic (uniform) tiling might be a simpler step first

1D -> 2D -> hexa -> complex periodic -> Penrose

I will definitely think about mechanic which could be interesting

Martin Büttner

I wonder if you can form a Turing complete language in which each program is simply a certain "starting" cell in a Penrose tiling

randomra

in a brute-force way definitely

although thats almost the same as taking the position of the cell as a problem

disregarding the whole tiling

Martin Büttner

22:35

well yeah I don't mean that you'd be able to find that right cell, but just whether you can encode programs simply in the local adjacency information at any point in the tiling

randomra

do you happen to know the answer to this:

"Is there a category/name for languages that can solve any problem in the same O() as a decent language? (I assume all decent languages can solve any problem in the same O().)"

Calvin's Hobbies

@MartinBüttner I suppose if the tiles could be numbered (spiraling outwards?) you could associate the tile with the Unary program whose length is its number.

I think that's right at least

You might have to worry about rotational symmetry

Alex A.

22:51

@TheNumberOne: You changed your name!

Do you no longer consider yourself the best one? :P

randomra

Every tile would be capable of 1 (maybe more) instruction based on it's surrounding with common instructions bidden to common properties (like 5 neighbor). The code would be a binary list meaning whether I run the next tile. (Operators could make the IP jump.)

TheNumberOne

Oh. Yeah. Too many sites already have TheBestOne claimed.

randomra

@TheNumberOne In my zoomed chat you are TheNumb

2

Alex A.

Haha

TheNumberOne

:) In mine it's TheNumberOn

Alex A.

22:52

In mine you're TheNumberO

So 0, I guess?

TheNumberOne

:(

Alex A.

Nothing wrong with 0. You know Zero the Hero, right?

TheNumberOne

23:09

Nope

Alex A.

rif.org/assets/Documents/readingplanet/ReadAloud_Stories/…

randomra

Hmm, P3 tiling is the well known one but P1 has 5 tiles instead of 2 which could help a lot in defining properties

TheNumberOne

@AlexA. What a horrible story.

Alex A.

Hahaha

TheNumberOne

I almost couldn't finish it.

Alex A.

23:23

I remember Zero the Hero from elementary school. I haven't really looked at the link I sent.

@TheNumberOne: Have you always been homeschooled?

TheNumberOne

Not for the first 4 grades.

I think I enjoyed watching number videos like that in first grade.

Alex A.

What prompted the change, if you don't mind me asking? Did you not like public or private elementary school?

TheNumberOne

They wouldn't let me skip fourth grade in addition to third grade when I was already the youngest in my class.

Alex A.

So you skipped third grade?

TheNumberOne

yep

Alex A.

23:37

But you couldn't skip fourth? So you went from second to fourth grade but you had wanted to go from second to fifth?

TheNumberOne

yep

I actually did an online curriculum for a while until they started throttling me too.

Alex A.

I couldn't even imagine going from second to fifth grade. That's a lot of material that you would be skipping. Though I suppose if you wanted to skip then that means you already knew it.

What do you mean throttling you?

TheNumberOne

I finished the entire a curriculum for 6th, 7th or 8th (I can't remember which) grade 3 months before the school year was over. They wouldn't give me the next grade's curriculum to work on for the next 3 months.

They did let me skip Pre-Algebra. That was pretty nice.

randomra

Wow, were you interested in every subject or did you rather take it as an achievement/competition?

Alex A.

You finished the entire middle school curriculum during elementary school??

Are you going to MIT next year?

randomra

23:45

I assume there wasn't much pressure from outside when you were many years ahead.

TheNumberOne

@randomra Mostly math. I'm about average for everything else.

randomra

Check your profile, damn, you are young. :)

TheNumberOne

@AlexA. No, that's not my college of choice. My college of choice won't allow anyone in under the age of 17.

Alex A.

Which college?

TheNumberOne

BYU-I

Alex A.

23:48

Oh, Bringham Young in Utah?

Or however you spell it

TheNumberOne

That's BYU

Alex A.

Then what's BYU-I?

TheNumberOne

BYU-I is in Idaho

Alex A.

Is it another branch of BYU?

TheNumberOne

yes.

Alex A.

23:49

What appeals to you about Idaho over Utah?

TheNumberOne

The population, or the lack of it.

randomra

@MartinBüttner If you want to code in Penrose (Pencode?) you will get dizzy quickly :/

Alex A.

@randomra: Are you young and wise beyond your years as well?

TheNumberOne

@AlexA. BYU stands for Brigham Young University ;)

Alex A.

@TheNumberOne: Yeah, I had an extraneous "n" in there.

randomra

23:53

I'm over 20. Beyond my years? (Non-native speaker too.)

Alex A.

Mid twenties here. "Wise beyond one's years" is an expression meaning that you're smarter/wiser than the average person of your age.

What's your native language?

@TheNumberOne: What appeals to you about Brigham Young over other universities?

TheNumberOne

I'm LDS

Alex A.

What's LDS?

TheNumberOne

sorry, got to go. I'll answer later.

Alex A.

Okay. Talk to you later!

randomra

23:58

Then I understood it just seemed weird. :) I didn't get much smarter since I left high-school IMO but that's just my opinion. I'm Hungarian.

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