The Nineteenth Byte

Y'all know how everyone is all about memory safe languages lately? Well I think there should be a memory sabotaging language. Instead of preventing memory leaks with things like borrowing, the compiler inserts memory leaks into your code for you. And it also never reports compiler errors, instead classifying good code as compiler errors.

Bubbler

4:13 AM

That.. would certainly make a new kind of esolang

user

Intercal vibes

lyxal

it also wouldn't tell you where it placed the memory leaks

Simd

What are integer solutions for (log_2 x)^8 < x

New Posts

0

Q: Single assignment for +/- INF and +/- NAN

Using one single statement, numerically assign the IEEE 754 : +INF to variable a — inf also acceptable -INF to variable b +NaN to variable c — a sign-less nan being displayed is acceptable as long as the code demonstrates how it arrives at a positive nan -NaN to variable d — a sig...

Simd

I know x=1,2 are solutions

But what else?

lyxal

4:24 AM

nothing

those are the only 2 integer solutions

desmos.com/calculator/wiaberdfy7

> berdfy

one letter away from greatness!

Simd

@lyxal what about x=3?

lyxal

39 is not less than 3

Deadcode

I put a lot of work into constructing and golfing this, and find the result to be quite satisfying: .NET regex for matching primes in decimal up to a specified maximum

user

@lyxal berdly more like nerdly

Simd

@lyxal ah yes. What about really big x?

Bubbler

4:28 AM

Wolfram Alpha says 0.527363<x<2.14354 or x>1.2961163241337846319×10^13

integer solutions would be 1, 2, and all x from 12961163241338 inclusive

Simd

Thanks!

Bubbler

Why do you want integer solutions though?

TwilightSparkle

@Bbrk24 What if the index of the element to be accessed is inputted?

But the optimization of [>>...>>] is definitely what one should use to do that.

user

@NewPosts Does someone want to comment on this and help the OP out?

It seems to be in some need of modification

Simd

@Bubbler I was wondering when arxiv.org/abs/2203.03456 was the fastest algorithm

TwilightSparkle

4:33 AM

If [>>...>>] is optimized to O(1), one can do something like binary search

And at the very least, even if there are modifications on the tape

the interpreter can build a bunch of balanced trees and do [>>...>>] in O(log n) anyways

Simd

@Bubbler the answer is, never realistically :)

TwilightSparkle

@Simd It's new, which means there are spaces to improve.

Simd

@TwilightSparkle that is true. Getting 8 down to 6 would make it almost useful

Bubbler

5:06 AM

> near-linear algorithm

> O(m log^8 n log W)

I guess near-linear has become more of a buzzword in the area of algorithms

TwilightSparkle

5:38 AM

@Bubbler Relatively closer to linear, anyways.

On a completely unrelated topic: is there a brainfuck visualizer with more memory?

Bubbler

6:11 AM

I haven't seen any, other than the copy.sh one (visualizer shows 30000 cells iirc)

Simd

7:20 AM

@Bubbler yes, sadly

Aiden Chow

so what does near linear actually look like?

Bubbler

technically it means anything in the form of n (linear) times any power of log n, log log n, etc.

it's called "near linear" because it grows slower than any n^(1+x) for any x>0, as n goes to infinity

Aiden Chow

so why it become buzzword

and why is so bad...

Bubbler

because everyone is hyped with fast-looking algorithms

but an n (log n)^8 algorithm is actually slower than n^2 one until n > 10^13, which means the former is pretty much useless in reality

Aiden Chow

near-linear mean faster??

Bubbler

7:36 AM

an n log n algorithm is usually faster than n^2 for like thousands or millions of items (e.g. quicksort vs. bubble sort)

so yes at the basic level

TwilightSparkle

@Bubbler So how do you use copy.sh to visualize?

Bubbler

but the common sense breaks down when you get stuff like n (log n)^8

@TwilightSparkle set "dump memory at char", insert that char somewhere in the program, and "view memory"

@Bubbler it also happens when the log power is pretty low (2 or 3) but the constant overhead is too large

Aiden Chow

ah so near linear is actually not fast at all??

Bubbler

sometimes yes

Aiden Chow

wat, so is near linear fast or not fast

wait log is base 10 here right

Bubbler

7:45 AM

base 2

Aiden Chow

wat now

Bubbler

do you know what "time complexity" is?

Aiden Chow

isnt log by itself base 10, u need to write log_2 for base 2 right

@Bubbler ya its that O thing with n inside

Bubbler

log with base 2 is common in computer science

Aiden Chow

huh i never see it use like that before

so computer science they write log_10 instead?

Bubbler

7:47 AM

there is simply no use for log with base 10 when talking about algorithms

Aiden Chow

huh why not

log base 10 is pretty useful

like finding how many digit inside a number

Bubbler

because computers use bits

Aiden Chow

so what about base 10 number

Bubbler

well, they might use log_10 in that case

Aiden Chow

that is confuse me, they gotta stick with one convention lol

i learn it like log is base 10

Bubbler

7:51 AM

i mean literally log_10, not log for base 10

in computer science

in math and other parts of science log is base 10, yes

Aiden Chow

wat so they use log for both base 2 and base 10 in computer science??

Bubbler

nonono

just base 2

Aiden Chow

that is strange

huh

so log isnt base 10?

Bubbler

just in computer science

Aiden Chow

have i been lied to my entire life...

this is hurting my brain lol

Bubbler

7:53 AM

it's just that different fields use different notation

it'll be common when you get to college, or read papers

Aiden Chow

oh

this kinda thing is normal? its like more confusing than helpful ngl

Bubbler

yeah it's confusing, but it's life (and math and science)

hyper-neutrino

i think eng tends to use 10, math tends to use e, and cs tends to use 2, but a) I could be wrong b) different areas of them also probably use the other ones

Aiden Chow

eng means english??

Bubbler

engineering

Aiden Chow

7:56 AM

wait isnt ln base e, wat now

i see ln in math all the time...

math scat

it is

Aiden Chow

okok so log in math is base 10 right

Bubbler

yes until high school

math scat

sometimes

Bubbler

i can't guarantee for college or higher

hyper-neutrino

7:57 AM

basically it's just inconsistent and you just need to be sure you know which one's being used lmao

Aiden Chow

yes until high school????

Bubbler

some college texts do use log for base e, iirc

Aiden Chow

tf they be doing in college???

math scat

^^^^

hyper-neutrino

yeah. I had at least one math class in uni write log for base e

Aiden Chow

7:58 AM

@Bubbler ok just no, that is gonna fuck with my brain too much

that seriously cant be a thing, like just stick with one notation, it really cant be that hard right

Bubbler

idk lol

hyper-neutrino

unfortunately it really is apparently too hard to stick to one notation

math uses i for the complex unit but engineering uses j (typically, IIRC)

python uses the latter as well

Aiden Chow

j??? i thought that was only a weird python quirk...

Bubbler

wait until you see "natural number" has two definitions

one including 0, and the other not

math scat

o.0

Aiden Chow

8:01 AM

who da hell see imaginary number and think ah yes, we will use j to denote that

like just no

@Bubbler bruh what natural number dont include 0, aint no way ppl say it does

hyper-neutrino

why i though

Aiden Chow

cuz imaginary start with i lol

hyper-neutrino

"i"maginary I suppose? but that's also not always what they're called either

Aiden Chow

ya they call complex number or smth but who da hell gonna start using c for sqrt(-1)...

math scat

g for gauss would've been cool

Aiden Chow

8:03 AM

and j makes even less sense than i

whats the rationale behind j anyways

hyper-neutrino

johndcook.com/blog/2013/04/23/why-j-for-imaginary-unit

not sure if this is actually why

but this seems like a compelling rationale

lyxal

Real gamers use ° or ı

Aiden Chow

@hyper-neutrino huh i never hear about i j k vector before

math scat

real gamers use quaternions

Aiden Chow

da hell are quaternions, i keep seeing ppl say that here but like tf is it

@lyxal gamers using imaginary numbers lol, as if

and also what kinda symbols are those, theres no way u gonna use a degree symbol for imaginary number

math scat

8:07 AM

(vyxal reference)

Aiden Chow

oh

lyxal

@AidenChow no way, you say?

Try it online! for the second symbol

hyper-neutrino

@AidenChow excellent question, I looked at the wikipedia page and didn't understand a thing

@lyxal oh wait did we change it for v3? I thought you were referring to jelly there lol

Aiden Chow

@lyxal ok bruh literally that is why i dont touch golfing langs, the notations are going to fuck with my brain

lyxal

Actually changed

@hyper-neutrino ^

Aiden Chow

8:10 AM

make notation actually make sense, da hell is degree symbol for complex number...

math scat

@AidenChow I'm halfway done with this fricking 60 page explanation

lyxal

@AidenChow what you choose when complex numbers weren't part of the original design

Aiden Chow

@mathscat 60 page, what now

lyxal

@AidenChow you might like literate mode which uses i

Aiden Chow

that literally looks like a wiki page with that table of contents u have there...

@lyxal ye using i make more sense

math scat

8:12 AM

yeah, I forgot most of it

pretty sure 3b1b has made a video about quaternions though

hyper-neutrino

Visualizing quaternions (4d numbers) with stereographic projection

►

youtube.com/watch?v=zjMuIxRvygQ also exists

Aiden Chow

ok i literally scroll to a random section of quaternion and i see slerp, bruh some interesting acronyms there

math scat

@hyper-neutrino ah right

lyxal

@AidenChow only when you stop caring about things being 1 byte :p

Simd

10:10 AM

@AidenChow hello

TwilightSparkle

@Bubbler Thanks

New Posts

11:03 AM

0

Q: Is byte count on TIO valid, specifically for non-ASCII C code?

When I have non-ASCII characters in my C code, TIO counts them as 1 byte. For example, the following C program prints 56 music-related characters on the terminal. Link TIO reports its length as "96 chars, 96 bytes (SBCS)". I understand "SBCS" as follows: C never standardized its source code form...

discussion code-golf scoring

lyxal

why the hell is c listed as sbcs on tio?

Simd

sbcs??

lyxal

single byte character set

Simd

ah ok

Hello, World!

11:34 AM

0

A: "Hello, World!"

HQ9+ 1 byte H HQ9+ is a joke programming language made by Cliff L. Biffle.

PlaceReporter99

I'm gonna make an anti-golfing language

based on python

Fatalize

Java already exists

8

PlaceReporter99

based on two words:
sesquipedalian
pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis

Simd

how quickly can you compute the Earth mover's distance between two arrays of n numbers?

math scat

@Fatalize oof

New Posts

11:53 AM

0

Q: A003056 in FRACTRAN

I have a question: How could we write a FRACTRAN to calculate the n-th term of sequence a(n+1) = a(n-a(n)) + 1, a(0) = 0 (A003056)? (What is the most common trick here for Recursion, which of these examples much more complicated than sequence A003056 that I have just mentioned?). I need your help...

interpreter recursion

math scat

can post?

lyxal

don't can it, post it :p

Fatalize

@mathscat I see you mention an image to add and I agree that an image of examples would be helpful

lyxal

What makes a polyomino "free"? — Bbrk24 Mar 17 at 18:47

math scat

ah, I should probably paraphrase the second sentence

caird coinheringaahin g

12:05 PM

CMM: try-it-online, given the number of questions we get about it?

Bbrk24

@lyxal ASCII is a SBCS I guess

caird coinheringaahin g

in talk.tryitonline.net, Mar 6, 2019 at 6:44, by Οurous

Why is C under SBCS now?

Bbrk24

Huh, I see

Sandbox Posts

12:36 PM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Cosine Similarity The cosine similarity of two vectors \$A\$ and \$B\$ is defined using their dot product and magnitude as: \$\frac{A\cdot B}{\|A\|\|B\|}\$ Or in other terms \$\frac{\sum_{i=1}^nA_iB_i}{\sqrt{\sum_{i=1}^nA_i^2}\sqrt{\sum_{i=1}^nB_i^2}}\$ Challenge Given two vectors (can be taken a...

Bbrk24

I was about to write an answer in TI-BASIC and then I remembered that's still in the sandbox :facepalm:

lyxal

protip: do not upgrade to chat improvements 4.0

it messes up the top bar and indents the starboard

Bbrk24

Can't upgrade something you don't have :rollsafe:

lyxal

that's chat without chat improvements

I'd show a screenshot of with

Bbrk24

12:52 PM

since when does chat have a dark mode? How do I activate it?

lyxal

but for some reason

it doesn't want to upload

@Bbrk24 universal dark mode extension :p

Bbrk24

ah

lyxal

that's with chat improvements

it timestamps messages, adds a helpful top bar, makes the user list look nicer, makes the "rooms you're in" list look nicer, and a bit more

that, combined with the SE chat modifications userscript and SE scroll the starboard userscript makes chat much nicer

Bbrk24

1:10 PM

on mobile, all messages already have timestamps

@lyxal do you have a link to that last one?

lyxal

@Bbrk24 not all of them

Bbrk24

all of them do on mobile, at least for me. Not all of them do on desktop

lyxal

@Bbrk24 github.com/makyen/StackExchange-userscripts/blob/master/…

Bbrk24

Oh, I see what you mean. I don't mind those being missing, and it's still more than what desktop has by default

lyxal

not that userscripts work on mobile anyway :p

it is worth having the nicer "users in room" list though

Bbrk24

1:31 PM

I know you can use Promise.all and friends to combine parallel promises into one, but is there a built-in/primitive to combine serial promises? Right now I'm just using an IIFE, like

(async () => {
  await this.bot.guilds.fetch();
  await this.serverCountChanged();
})()

Rydwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing Tbf as other people have said exclusive ranges are definitely the default for programming, at least in every praclang I've enocuntered, and for IMO very good reasons.

@lyxal Problem is, people would just write build tools that search for and fix the memory issues. The compiler needs to obfuscate the code, add checksums and self-modifying code, and search the system for programs which aim to interfere with it and insert memory errors into them

lyxal

Of course

All steps needed to prevent gaming the system

Rydwolf Programs

I just had an awful idea
What if operating systems were garbage collected, and instead of programs having their own garbage collection and getting big chunks of RAM from the OS, they'd ask the OS for individual variables

Even worse: What if there could be naming conflicts

"Sorry, you can't have length, that's already being used by some other program on the system"

lyxal

That could make for interesting malware

A virus that closes every other program and uses up every possible variable name

Rydwolf Programs

And don't worry, this wouldn't allow for any data privacy concerns, as long as you remember to scope all of your variables correctly

lyxal

1:43 PM

You could have like a variable registry like how you register urls

Rydwolf Programs

@Bbrk24 No, but you could just use a for loop if they're in an array

for (prom of proms) { await prom; }

caird coinheringaahin g

Also, I was scrolling through old TNB transcripts, and look at how awful my prediction ability is:

Jun 3, 2022 at 3:20, by caird coinheringaahing

Mod team is still running smoothly, so no election soon

3 months later:

Sep 1, 2022 at 13:51, by caird coinheringaahing

👀 mod election?

Rydwolf Programs

Wait you only became a mod that recently?

Ohhh right

Feb 28, 2021 at 1:17, by caird coinheringaahing

idk the physics behind it, but time has been on some hardcore drugs for the past 18 months

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing sounds more like an alabi to me. Where'd you bury doorknob caird? :p

Rydwolf Programs

(also I think we could all probably communicate just as effectively purely through caird transcript quotes :p)

8

lyxal

1:48 PM

May 11, 2021 at 1:23, by caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal frick, only 10/10 not 69/420? I failed as a crewmate, hella sus. Let me just go commit frick and die

Huh, guess you're right :p

Bbrk24

The first time my computer shut down due to overheating, I thought it was never going to work again, so I said that my computer "went commit die"

Rydwolf Programs

Why is MathJax not working for me on the ask question page

Can y'all repro?

lyxal

That's fair. It do be like that sometimes

@Bbrk24 ^

Bbrk24

Mar 20 at 17:56, by lesobrod

Inline Latex not work!

lyxal

@RydwolfPrograms Inline doesn't, block does

Rydwolf Programs

1:53 PM

Weird, neither works for me

lyxal

Block takes a few seconds of thinking time though

Anyhow, it's bed time for this lyxal

o/

Rydwolf Programs

What about the other lyxals?

Will one take over in your absence?

lyxal substitute

Okay okay phew I'm here

7

caird coinheringaahin g

@RydwolfPrograms I'll take that as a compliment :P

Rydwolf Programs

2:40 PM

CMQ: Should I start on my language ranking script again? One thing I've been planning to do with it is to use the language rankings to create "golfer rankings", sort of like ELO for how good you are at golfing. Like, if Jelly is expected to be 6× golfier than Python, and your Jelly answer is 8× shorter than the shortest Python answer to the challenge, your golfer ranking would go up

(of course, it'd be inaccurate when a user is so good at using a language and so prolific in doing so that they single-handedly raise the language's expected golfiness, harming their own score, but I don't think that'd bias it too much)

mousetail

You can do it for fun but the sampling bias will always be way to great to draw any kind of conclusions from this

Rydwolf Programs

Sampling bias?

Jacob

sampling bias as in which languages are used more frequently i think

Rydwolf Programs

No, that doesn't change the ranking in any way

mousetail

No what languages people pick for certain problems

Rydwolf Programs

2:49 PM

I'm guessing they mean samplig bias as in people won't use languages as often for challenges they're bad at, amplifying the scores of languages that focus more on specific domains

ninja'd

Yeah, that's a factor, but it wasn't as big of one as you'd think

mousetail

People don't use golfing languages for complex challenges so they seem much better than they actually are

Rydwolf Programs

That's not just the case for golfing languages though

Praclangs have the don't-use-it-if-it-doesn't-work-well effect too, so the bias partially cancels out

Bbrk24

There's also code-golf vs fastest-code

Rydwolf Programs

I filter out everything that isn't vanilla code golf ofc

The filter I used for the old Node.js ranking script was:

questions.filter(q => q[1].includes("code-golf") && !["tips", "polyglot", "restricted-source", "source-layout", "cops-and-robbers", "code-challenge", "popularity-contest", "fastest-code", "fastest-algorithm", "answer-chaining", "programming-puzzle", "rosetta-stone"].some(n => q[1].includes(n)))

Plus a check for bonuses

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms Practlangs tend to be viable on a much wider range of use cases

that's their purpose

Rydwolf Programs

2:57 PM

Well aside from questions requiring interfacing with files/the internet/dates, that doesn't really matter

And there's another filter removing those questions

For every huge challenge with a 1000-byte Python answer there's a 100-byte Pyth/Japt/Jelly/05AB1E/Vyxal answer

Bbrk24

You also have to account for the fact that some answers specify e.g. Python 2 vs Python 3, while others use one or the other and just say "Python"

or that e.g. Perl 6 and Raku are the same thing

Rydwolf Programs

Yep, the way I handle that is hierarchical languages

So the "Python" score includes every Python answer, including "Python 2" and "Python 3.9.1"

Bbrk24

There's also the wonderful world of shells -- POSIX sh, macOS zsh, pure bash, macOS bash, bash + coreutils, dash, ...

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms That's not true at all

Rydwolf Programs

The process of running the script is pretty involved. First it generates hundreds of pairs of similar-looking language names, and has you dedupe them. Then it generates tons of likely parent-child pairs for the hierarchy, and has you start to build that tree structure. Then you manually go through the list fixing any weirdness.

@Bbrk24 Yep. I put all of those under an sh hierarchy, but keep them separate

mousetail

3:02 PM

Many complex challenges have just one answer and it's usually python or even Java or JS

Rydwolf Programs

And questions with one answer have nothing to score against

So they don't matter

mousetail

My point is any potential scoring mechanism can never be better than terrible

Rydwolf Programs

Well you're not doing a very good job of defending it :p

Flawed? Sure. Terrible? That is definitely not what I've experienced

Bbrk24

Do you still have the whole script?

mousetail

There is a meta question that explains it, let me find it

Rydwolf Programs

3:04 PM

@Bbrk24 Yeah, but it's kind of in a messy state right now since I stopped in the middle of some improvements

DLosc

3:25 PM

@Bbrk24 Otherwise there were some rounding errors. For example, LOG(81)/LOG(3) should be 4, and displays as 4, but I think under the hood it's actually 3.99999999999 or something because when you take the INT you get 3.

Bbrk24

ah, makes sense. My Swift answer might do that too then

Rydwolf Programs

In Rust, is there a way to "flatten" a Result where Ok and Err are the same type?

E.g., OsString::into_string returns Result<String, OsString>. If I map_err the OsString into a String, which gives me a Result<String, String>, is there a way to turn that into a String without a match?

Bbrk24

I would probably just use match rather than map_err in the first place, but I also don't use Rust

Rydwolf Programs

Ooh wait it looks like unwrap_or_else does what I want

Yep, worked

Sʨɠɠan

@RydwolfPrograms yes

DLosc

3:33 PM

Jan 7 at 3:02, by caird coinheringaahing

Don't think so

Rydwolf Programs

Dec 23, 2022 at 0:26, by caird coinheringaahing

@Niko Pretty sure this has been done

May 18, 2021 at 20:10, by caird coinheringaahing

It's definitely possible, but might be a little trickier

DLosc

Jan 11, 2018 at 22:43, by caird coinheringaahing

@Mego Yeah, a surprising amount of people have that attitude on this site.

Rydwolf Programs

I should make a script to automate finding the closest cairdpost to a string

(I need to make sure to use good coding practices tho, otherwise this could happen:)

May 6, 2021 at 1:49, by caird coinheringaahing

Does that script actually work? Everytime I've tried it, it hasn't actually done anything

DLosc

Nov 28, 2022 at 4:15, by caird coinheringaahing

That's fair. Mind if I ask why tho? The community's opinion is more valuable than ours :P

Rydwolf Programs

Oct 2, 2021 at 16:05, by caird coinheringaahing

Probably because I don't know an easier way :P

caird would be incredibly useful to have as an ally in this game due to their power to generate arbitrary transcript messages by themselves at will :p

DLosc

3:40 PM

Apr 11, 2022 at 19:43, by caird coinheringaahing

True gamer right here

Rydwolf Programs

Jun 6, 2021 at 23:40, by caird coinheringaahing

That's like so much easier and open to exploits

Exploits including bribery :p

PlaceReporter99

4:19 PM

me making an anti-golfing programming language 🙄
Please dont ban me

caird coinheringaahin g