The Nineteenth Byte

Rydwolf Programs

00:18

Considering installing Linux as a dual boot on my new PC

Anyone here used Fedora?

forest

I don't use it, but I'm relatively familiar with RHEL-based systems and I've used it in the past.

user

For like 20 minutes, in a VM. Didn't have any problems setting up everything. I've heard the package manager (yum? dnf?) can be slow, though

Rydwolf Programs

Nah I love dnf

I use Fedora Server anywhere I can, more the desktop experience I'm curious about

Also, any opinions on KDE vs. GNOME, aesthetics wise?

forest

It's quite good on the desktop, although using SELinux in enforcing mode can be a bit iffy.

KDE. Never GNOME. GNOME sucks.

user

KDE looks much better, but seems to glitch more often

Rydwolf Programs

00:22

@forest I've started just disabling SELinux, even on servers. I know I shouldn't but it's just such a pain.

user

Although those glitches only happened when I was customizing how it looked, which I never tried with GNOME

forest

That's not good for security, but OK.

@user GNOME is pretty much... impossible to customize.

user

@RydwolfPrograms Mine keeps bread in the freezer. Every time I want bread, I have to let it thaw a little, then pry a slice of bread apart without damaging it, then toast it

Rydwolf Programs

I am quite disillusioned with American bread

Not that I ever liked it in the first place

It's just so squishy, soggy, and oddly sweet

user

What's different about American bread?

Maybe try buying from a different brand lol

Rydwolf Programs

00:26

Like as a grocery store bagger I've had customers' bread irreparably damaged by putting bags of chips on top it. It's all just disgustingly flimsy.

Unrelated String

what the fuck

user

I've never encountered bread that soft lol

Rydwolf Programs

There's so much cool variation in bread, and so many of them are good. Why America has settled on these flavorless rectangular prisms of sadness is beyond me

Unrelated String

^

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, bread here is always more or less normal

user

00:27

@RydwolfPrograms Good for grilled sandwiches

Rydwolf Programs

@user tbf it was a lot of chips

caird coinheringaahing

Also, don't you add a bunch of sugar?

Unrelated String

i've never eaten that kind of bread but i've still seen and felt it and being dented by the weight of a bag of chips seems crazy even for that

user

Still, chips are pretty light. Unless these were microchips?

@cairdcoinheringaahing American custom

Add sugar to everything until it's sweet and bland

Rydwolf Programs

@user Eh, idk. I feel like plenty of other breads would work fine

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that most countries classify our sandwich bread as cake

2

user

00:29

Personally, I can't tolerate bread that's too hard. Feels like my teeth are about to break

Rydwolf Programs

Well we should differentiate between the crust and the...meat? flesh?

wait caps lock

caird coinheringaahing

Okay, I just looked at the bread in my cupboard, and it is 2.5% sugar

Rydwolf Programs

Bread should have a hard, preferably somewhat crispy outer crust

user

Yeah

Rydwolf Programs

I feel like generations of Americans have had bread crust ruined for them because our crust just sucks

lyxal

00:31

imagine being able to know the ingredient composition of your bread

user

It's also nice if the non-crust is somewhat crispy

But baguettes are ridiculous

Rydwolf Programs

Our crust is just soggy, burnt-flavored bread flesh

user

@lyxal Companies don't need to put that on the label in Australia?

Rydwolf Programs

Of course nobody wants that

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal All british food products have a breakdown of starch, sugars, calories, etc.

lyxal

00:31

@user not when it comes from an actual bakery :p

y'all buying store bread like nerds

Rydwolf Programs

Well then you're too far above us bread peasants to relate to our struggles :p

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal £0.79 for a loaf that lasts me 10 days

I'm happy to pay £0.08p per day for bread

user

@lyxal I'll have you know the Giant near me has a "Bakery" section

Rydwolf Programs

And American bread is so gross nobody would eat it on its own, with startlingly few exceptions

user

They have wonderful garlic bread there that only occasionally has fungus

caird coinheringaahing

00:33

@RydwolfPrograms Wonderbread is alright

You can actually buy it in Europe, so it has to be edible

Rydwolf Programs

The only meal I can think of that it's normal to eat plain American bread with is barbeque

Unrelated String

it could be a different product under the same brand in europe
because i've heard fucking horror stories about wonderbread

user

PB&J sandwiches are great

Rydwolf Programs

If I saw someone just eating a slice of US bread I'd think they hadn't eaten in days

user

Or toast with cheese, seasoning, and bell peppers on it

caird coinheringaahing

00:35

Tbf, I don't eat bread by itself ever

@user Cheese toastie with hot sauce and salami has kept me alive this year

Rydwolf Programs

Not with like, pasta and stuff?

Unrelated String

what now

i don't know what a toastie is but cheese, hot sauce, and salami sound like a very weird combination

caird coinheringaahing

Grilled cheese

user

It sounds like an unusual but banging combination

Unrelated String

what

caird coinheringaahing

00:36

But with sriracha and salami in the middle

Unrelated String

sriracha and salami

together in a sandwich

caird coinheringaahing

And I mean good salami

user

All salami is good salami

Unrelated String

honestly i could see that working but that's so weird to even imagine

caird coinheringaahing

@UnrelatedString This is objectively good

user

00:37

Except the kind with fungus growing on it

caird coinheringaahing

It's pizza, but spicy

Rydwolf Programs

This is why we left Britain

Okay weird salami story

Unrelated String

speaking of with fungus growing on it i really need to find somewhere to try huitlacoche some time

that shit sounds so good

user

You worry me

You also thought blood sausages would taste good

caird coinheringaahing

"huitlacoche sounds good"
*refuses to consider cheese, meat and hot sauce*

Unrelated String

00:38

who wouldn't

caird coinheringaahing

@user BLACK PUDDING IS AMAZZING

I will fight anyone who says otherwise

Wait, hang on. I will nuke anyone who says otherwise :P

user

I don't even know what black pudding is

Rydwolf Programs

Apparently when my parents were kids salami was super rare in the southern US or something, because my distant relatives have some weird tradition of sending salami from California (where they live) to all their relatives (including us)

user

But if it has even a drop of blood in it, I'm not touching it

caird coinheringaahing

@user Pretty sure y'all call it blood pudding

user

00:39

Oh

Eww

caird coinheringaahing

Or blood sausages, idk

user

Please nuke me then

Rydwolf Programs

So every year at Christmas, we get a big box of salami

caird coinheringaahing

Black pudding

Black pudding is a distinct regional type of blood sausage originating in the United Kingdom and Ireland. It is made from pork or beef blood, with pork fat or beef suet, and a cereal, usually oatmeal, oat groats, or barley groats. The high proportion of cereal, along with the use of certain herbs such as pennyroyal, serves to distinguish black pudding from blood sausages eaten in other parts of the world. == Etymology == The word pudding is believed to derive from the French boudin, originally from the Latin botellus, meaning "small sausage". == History and recipes == Blood puddings are...

Rydwolf Programs

And despite it being literally the same brand we can buy in our grocery stores now, they treasure that stuff

So much that they never even touch it

It's too special, we gotta save it for a special occasion, whatever

Unrelated String

00:40

black pudding is a specific kind of blood sausage; there are non-british blood sausages that i assume y'all wouldn't equate with black pudding

Rydwolf Programs

So every year we throw away like a pound of mid-tier salami shipped all the way from California

caird coinheringaahing

@RydwolfPrograms My dude

Unrelated String

because the fat and grain seem like they'd give it a very specific kind of texture

caird coinheringaahing

Mix it with cheese, and you have a heavenly meal

forest

I love that there's more off-topic here than in the off-topic channel.

Rydwolf Programs

00:42

Well no it's after it's already home to exciting new antibiotics that we throw it away

caird coinheringaahing

@RydwolfPrograms Eat it fast enough

Rydwolf Programs

2 mins ago, by Rydwolf Programs

It's too special, we gotta save it for a special occasion, whatever

If anyone dares to touch the Christmas Salami it's a bad day

caird coinheringaahing

Try to convince your parents that eating food is the best way to appreciate the food

Rydwolf Programs

These are the same people who go grocery shopping twice a month they do not know logic nor food safety standards

user

Take the salami out of its packaging and replace it with some other substance. If your parents never open it, they'll never know, and you can have all the salami for yourself

Rydwolf Programs

00:46

I don't really like salami tho lol

caird coinheringaahing

Boooo

user

Sell it at school

caird coinheringaahing

Salami + Pickles is an amazing combo

user

Go to your chem teacher and trade it for meth

Rydwolf Programs

It's the same stuff you can get at the grocery store :p

user

00:47

Sell it to the grocery stole 😎 to get that money 💵

Rydwolf Programs

My relatives in California apparently have not been informed that refrigerated shipping containers now exist

user

Why doesn't one of you just tell them you don't want the salami and that they can just send money to you directly instead?

Rydwolf Programs

Because the only people who know who they even are are the same people here who think it's still rare and special :p

@RydwolfPrograms Seriously tho it should be illegal to make your kids drink two week old milk because you think it's good for their bones when it is literally cottage cheese at that point

7 year old me had perfectly fine bones, mom

user

01:15

Seeing as how OTTNB has a conversation going, and this whole off-topic conversation will be moved later, I'll just vent about my classes

One professor sent out an email on Sunday (classes start tomorrow) assigning not one but two pieces of homework, both of which require learning stuff ourselves. One of those is due this Friday (no idea when the other is due)

Another class has its first lecture tomorrow, online, but the Canvas course hasn't been published yet

Wow, thanks for assigning us a bunch of homework before the semester starts, I do hate being enthusiastic and unburdened

Ginger

01:46

@forest GNOME bad agreed, but I prefer to use Cinnamon over KDE

Rydwolf Programs

lol basically just saying "we suggest using this time for the assignment since currently this is the only class that's disrespectful enough of your time to assign you stuff"

Ginger

@RydwolfPrograms use either KDE Plasma or Mint

user

I've only seen screenshots of one Cinnamon theme, but KDE feels more modern

Also, it looks like it doesn't support Wayland

Ginger

@Ginger This is partially because I don't really like some aspects of KDE's theming (like the mouse cursor) and partially because I'm running this on a Raspberry Pi and it will rip my spinal cord out if I try to run KDE on it

@user yeah, unfortunately

but (full) Wayland support is a ways off for RPi anyway

user

You can change the cursor theme pretty easily, right?

Oh right, you use a Pi :|

Ginger

01:49

@user yeah, but there are some other things, which are totally legit issues and not just me trying to avoid having to back up my argument

user

Can you ask for a computer for your birthday or something?

Or buy that cheap one Radvylf was selling

Ginger

@user so basically I have an actual (and pretty good) tower PC, but I can't use it all the time, so when I can't I use the Pi instead

user

@Ginger Yeah I mean it's totally a matter of personal preference (like that Wikipedia redesign)

Ginger

@user hey what's that :| for, Raspberry Pi is great

~~way better than chocolate~~

user

It's like bringing a toothpick to go hog-hunting

Ginger

01:51

@user you're thinking of old Pis, in 2023 it's more like bringing a steak knife to go hog-hunting

user

Okay, yeah, that's fair

But a steak knife isn't going to save you, especially if your plotting wife's messed with your drink

forest

@Ginger I don't use any DE, myself.

user

Window manager? Or are you a 1337 haxxor who understands characters scroling down their screen? :P

forest

I use just a WM when I need graphical applications, otherwise I'm in my terminal with tmux.

Rydwolf Programs

02:19

One thing I dislike about Rust: array[-1] doesn't work

Bubbler

That's a very good example of nonzero-cost abstraction

Rydwolf Programs

Wdym?

Bubbler

Supporting it requires a conditional and adding len if necessary

Rydwolf Programs

Oh, true

Isn't that sort of bound checking already kind of required tho? Adding a single conditional check based on a flag that's probably already set by something doesn't seem like much of a cost, and in most cases the compiler could probably tell it's only ever positive anyway

Bubbler

By using an unsigned integer type as an index, there is only a single check (less than len) which when failed leads to panic, and some people's experiments support that such a conditional is almost zero cost

But negativity check (with negative indexing support) has different property (can run any number of times at runtime, possibly unpredictably)

Rydwolf Programs

02:29

I guess that makes sense, yeah

Didn't consider non-constant indices

Rydwolf Programs

02:47

If a and b are coprime a + b has to be coprime to b right?

Music's too loud to do math

Bubbler

02:58

@RydwolfPrograms yes

gcd(a+b,b) = gcd(a,b) by Euclid

New Posts

03:10

0

Q: Pushing boxes away

You(represented with O) are on a plane filled with boxes(represented with X), and you get a sequence of movements, say "up right right down left": XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXOXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX You move up, pushing all boxes in front of you away: XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXOXXX XXX XXX XXXXXXX ...

code-golf

l4m2

09:11

codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/25505/76323 Problem is still that this challenge may be RAM-bottlenecked, at least in my solution

mousetail

09:22

New tag: least-memory

Feeds

09:44

emanresu A has removed an event from this room's schedule.

emanresu A

LYAL is dead, and people can ask LDQs anytime (and we've stopped announcing them anyway)

forest

RIP

mousetail

Maybe chat events where just never a great idea

emanresu A

They had their limits.

lyxal

10:34

Yeah, chat events are only as good as the momentum to keep them going

And when they're things that can be done at any time, it doesn't make sense to focus on them at a specific time

Adám

Best thing is to have a long pre-defined list of subjects for the foreseeable future.

That's what I did with my current chat events. I started with a list of 100 or 110 episodes.

lyxal

That works for when it's specialised teaching and a weekly "lecture" type event, but not so much when it's just learning a language or asking language design questions in a room where there isn't no single language focus

mousetail

Learning a language could work if someone actually prepares some tutorials and mini questions etc.

Adám

Yes, all the materials have to be pre-prepared.

mousetail

Expecting random people who posted something months earlier to prepare something is hard though, even LOTM gets posted late very often

Number Basher

11:35

Can we change the chat event to programming language design and implementation

or will that just suck as much as ldw

l4m2

codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/257057 In Hibert's hotel, he don't ask everyone to move, he pushs the whole row

mousetail

@NumberBasher I don't see how that would make a difference

l4m2

but why it looks like far boxes are pushed into river

mousetail

@l4m2 I don't understand what you are saying

Number Basher

@mousetail ok

l4m2

13:00

When do "Can you answer this?" appear, or it's just random?

Number Basher

I am guessing it's random

BTW are you using a VPN?

seems like you're from China :-)

l4m2

Yes

UndoneStudios

Hi

What are the allowed output methods in Scratch?

Number Basher

Not sure

@l4m2 :-)

mathcat

@UndoneStudios ~~welcome to scratch capitalism~~

I'm pretty sure we don't have a consensus on that.

UndoneStudios

13:16

I know say works

what else?

Scratch doesn't return values

Unrelated String

@Ginger that's like the only python golfing trick i know :P

mousetail

@UndoneStudios I think most answers use say

UndoneStudios

Not this one

mousetail

That just defines a function right?

UndoneStudios

Technically, Scratch doesn't have functions...

you could call them procedures

mousetail

13:19

aka functions

UndoneStudios

Well, forget those. Is it allowed to store return values in a certain variable?

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Solve the "/" puzzles from Taiji Spoilers for the game Taiji, it's really good you should play it Taiji puzzles consist of a rectangular grid, a solution consists of setting each square to either on or off: #### #... ##.. However, not every solution is correct, a puzzle can contain any number of...

UndoneStudios

I'm not sure because that's an invalid input method, so I think it will also be an invalid output method...

mousetail

Seems no: codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/24058/91213

UndoneStudios

-4 votes

Sounds like no

mousetail

13:21

That's what I said

UndoneStudios

yeah

mousetail

You can omit closing brackets so that is not actually a issue with the assignment

UndoneStudios

Yeah I know

I've read the tips page

mousetail

Please next time you spot a loophole abuse in a post link to the actual IO defaults post or the loopholes post, not just create confusion by "I'm pretty sure". that's unhelpful

Also there can be more output methods that are valid

Rydwolf Programs

14:19

@Feeds I've witnessed a double murder :p

Sad to see them go but yeah, they were as dead as BMG

Unrelated String

...i can't even remember what bmg stood for lmao

oh biweekly mini golf

that was pretty cool the like two times it happened in any meaningful capacity :P

Rydwolf Programs

yeah lol

And I think at least one of those, I was asleep :p

Unrelated String

yeah the scheduling was an issue on top of just running out of steam

Rydwolf Programs

Either events are too long to really be different from a normal day, or too short to include most of us

Unrelated String

lyal was a pretty good one... until it ran out of languages people cared to participate for

Rydwolf Programs

14:33

Yeah

PyGamer0

15:10

@UnrelatedString ~~lets bring lyal back so that i can promote flax~~

Does anyone know how to bulk rename file by using awk to rename or something

i have files in the format X - Y - foo.bar and i want to bulk rename them to foo.bar

nvm

i found zmv

Rydwolf Programs

15:52

I came up with the coolest way to do backups

rsyncing into an overlay2 filesystem

Only issue is that it will mangle overlay2 directories on the system being backed up

Which are used by Docker and RTO, among other things

mousetail

16:44

Is there a challenge for writing code that breaks when autoformatted yet?

Aiden Chow

17:00

@mousetail autoformatted how?

Rydwolf Programs

^

Could be interesting tho

Sort of like the sloc-gaming challenge

mousetail

Like black, rustfmt, prettier etc.

Would it be suitable as a popularity contest?

Aiden Chow

many langs dont have autoformat :|

mousetail

Most practlangs do

Some golfing langs do to actually

Rydwolf Programs

17:18

You'd need some way to decide what's a valid autoformatter tho

I mean you could use language/flag rules and score by language+choice of autoformatter, so using a cheaty autoformatter doesn't technically get you anything, but that doesn't really seem like a good option IMO

I think the scoring criterion is fine as code golf, no popcon needed, it just needs a validity criterion

Maybe like...popcon as a validity criterion? Shortest positively-voted answer?

mousetail

Anything is valid, but score is per formatter

I want to make it popcon specifically because it's a bit subjective

So your score for autopep8 wouldn't be compared to your score for black

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail How's it subjective?

parz

I’m back!

With…

mousetail

I just don't think the shortest answers would be the most interesting

parz

17:34

ANOTHER HORRID ><> RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR!

Rydwolf Programs

Presumably it would be semi-quine rules, right? No reading your own source code from the outside?

parz

> 1 x 0 ;
&

Rydwolf Programs

I'd assume things like (fn).toString() would be allowed in JS

parz

but the formatting got butchered…

Rydwolf Programs

Use Ctrl+K for code formatting in chat

parz

17:35

i’m on mobile…

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms Yep

parz

but the basic idea is the ampersand is under the x

and then count the amount of 1’s

Rydwolf Programs

> 1 x 0 ;
    &

^?

parz

yes

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms This is why I'd like to make it a popularity contest, best answers should exploit odd formatter bugs rather than this type of thing

DLosc

17:55

@NewPosts I'm instantly transported back to the days of playing Rodent's Revenge on my grandma's computer :D

@mousetail Not technically a golflang, but yes :)

emanresu A

18:35

@mousetail That wasn't always the case. back in my day...

Ginger

alright time to learn Scala

Ginger

19:05

wow, replit's scala template is almost incredibly crappy

time to make my own

Ginger

20:18

huh, seems that IPv4 addresses are pretty much used up

Rydwolf Programs

Haven't they been that way for like...ever

Ginger

probably? I just learned that today tho

user

21:17

This is literally why ipv6 was made

And probably at least partially why you have a private ip address instead of every device getting its own ip

Ginger

21:33

> GingerIndustries wants to merge 34 commits into main from dev

am I doing GitHub right

Ginger

21:48

@lyxal how the turbles have taned :p

Adám

@Ginger You might want to squash those.

Ginger

@Adám why? main hasn't had any commits at all since the first one

Adám

oh

Ginger

all those commits are me and other people working on getting the software functional

lyxal

@Ginger probably :p

Ginger

21:56

@lyxal I think you're a bit biased :b

lyxal

I mean sure there's a few self branch merges, but it's not that bad

DLosc

22:15

Imagine having multiple commits to merge :P

Ginger

in Off-Topic TNB, Jul 12, 2022 at 5:48, by hyper-neutrino

lyxal

@Ginger and how glad I am they have :p

Ginger

22:32

of course now I realize this was all an elaborate plot to get me to join the vyxal cult q:

lyxal

*corporation

Rust is the cult, remember?

Ginger

oh right sorry

caird coinheringaahing

Jelly's a religion, Rust is a cult, Vyxal is a corporation

Ginger

Scala is a club, like trainspotting

Rydwolf Programs

I'd say Haskell's more cultlike :p

They use weird terminology and ways of approaching problems to make it harder for users to leave for another language. It strips away your support network by making you constantly introduce category theory into everyday life, causing stress which ultimately destroys every external relationship

Ginger

22:49

Rust is an underground movement, Haskell is a cult

Seggan

Rust is also a cult

@RydwolfPrograms were the chips made of lead

Rydwolf Programs

No, but they were corn chips

Or maybe tortilla chips, idr if they were like, doritos, or tortilla chips, or whatever

Seggan

23:06

youve got weird bread

caird coinheringaahing

23:52

Any feedback?

Still working on test cases, so any suggestions are welcome

user

@RydwolfPrograms I know you're joking, but I found this FP library for Scala to make things more Haskell-y. I tried to go all in with it, and by the end, my code looked nothing like normal Scala. After leaving it alone for a month, I had no idea what any of it was doing even though I'd commented it as best as I could, so I just scrapped the whole thing

Category theory could infect your whole codebase if you're not careful

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